A question about American politics

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FlatAssembler
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A question about American politics

Postby FlatAssembler » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

Hey, guys! As some of you already know, I live in Croatia. I know that the American conservatives claim that it's justified for the US to be involved in a war because it brings people freedom and capitalism.
So, I have a serious question about it.

How do the American conservatives respond to the notion that the America's involvement in the Yugoslav Wars (the bombings of Belgrade) is responsible for the recent rise of socialism (as an opposition to the "capitalism") in Croatia?
To me, that notion appears quite plausible.

Not everyone knows this, but more people were killed in the bombings of Belgrade than in of Vukovar. And the war was, by the time of the bombings of Belgrade, for all practical purposes, over. Very few people in Belgrade still believed in neofascism at that point in time. Those bombings basically killed thousands of people who had nothing to do with the war crimes the neofascists did other than being the same nationality, and nationality isn't the same as political affiliation. Furthermore, the neofascists were storing most of their ammunition near the concentration camps in northern Bosnia, and not in Belgrade.

Similarly, during the World War 2, the USA and the UK interventions on the territory of the modern-day Croatia probably increased the number of casualties. Namely, at the beginning of World War 2, they financially supported the Chetnik party, which later turned out to be cooperating with the Fascists.

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freezeblade
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Re: A question about American politics

Postby freezeblade » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:11 pm UTC

I'll start by saying that I'm not a conservative, Just an American, living in a pretty solidly-blue area of the country. With that in mind, here's my take:

Throughout my own course of public schooling, we learned absolutely nothing about the bombings in that area of the world, nor the US's history of meddling in politics in South America for that matter. None of this was learned in public education, only once I went to college did any of this even get brought up (and when it is, it's typically done in a very "American Exceptionalism" sort of way. This is the same for most everyone I know from the states.

The truth is that most Americans don't really have an opinion on the US's involvement in the Yugoslav wars, because they don't know anything about it. If confronted with these facts, in the current political climate, you'd likely hear plenty of people calling it "fake news" or give you a "well, it was war, war is messy" response.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

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CorruptUser
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Re: A question about American politics

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

I'm also an American. But unlike Freeze, I did learn about the Yugoslav war in school. We all read Zlatas diary, and more importantly, my hometown took in a lot of Bosnian refugees. The Bosnian perspective was that the US showed up but forced a peace deal just before the Bosnians won, which I think is a shit view since 1) it's not our place to win wars on behalf of others and 2) a Bosnian "victory" probably would have been retaliatory genocides.

My perspective is that given what we were told, Clinton made the right choice in that war, but I don't know for certain what truly happened. Not helping things is that al Qaeda was fighting on the same side as the US; a few of the 9/11 hijackers were Bosnian war vets, and al Qaeda was pissed about the war because "their work" resulted in s secular state even if we saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of muslims, so fuck al qaeda.

Tyndmyr
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Re: A question about American politics

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:56 am UTC

FlatAssembler wrote:Hey, guys! As some of you already know, I live in Croatia. I know that the American conservatives claim that it's justified for the US to be involved in a war because it brings people freedom and capitalism.
So, I have a serious question about it.


Ehhh, maybe? It really depends. Even on the war.

How do the American conservatives respond to the notion that the America's involvement in the Yugoslav Wars (the bombings of Belgrade) is responsible for the recent rise of socialism (as an opposition to the "capitalism") in Croatia?
To me, that notion appears quite plausible.


The Belgrade bombing was a Clinton administration action. Clinton was not much beloved of conservatives. If memory serves, at the time, people accused him of trying to draw attention away from his trial, impeachment, which had happened somewhat before, and was getting endless news coverage. So, if you're looking for the partisan political coverage, that was the far conservative take.

The US also has a fairly high amount of conflict...at this point, very few people look back to that period, because there's been so much conflict the US has been involved in between then and now. It doesn't get a great deal of attention these days, one way or the other. Looking back, I don't think most folks would say that attempting to stop the killing was particularly wrong.

At the time, though, it was definitely understood that say, hitting the Chinese embassy was a mistake. In fairness to Clinton, he was intending to strike primarily military targets, but wars in real life often work out much more awfully than they do in planning. Even with a good goal, sometimes the actual results are rough.

Similarly, during the World War 2, the USA and the UK interventions on the territory of the modern-day Croatia probably increased the number of casualties. Namely, at the beginning of World War 2, they financially supported the Chetnik party, which later turned out to be cooperating with the Fascists.


That definitely doesn't get a lot of coverage these days. WW 2 as a whole does, but US historical discussion of it is heavily biased towards the western front and the pacific. The lead up to WW2, sure, it's generally agreed that folks didn't universally recognize how dangerous fascism is, and folks were far too optimistic about the idea of peace via negotiation/compromise/whatever.


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