Philosophy and science of gender and sex

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Zohar
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby Zohar » Thu May 30, 2019 4:19 pm UTC

I'm reminded of a trans friend of mine who basically said that if it were socially acceptable, she wouldn't have gotten any surgery, wouldn't have grown her hair, wouldn't have removed hair, basically wouldn't bother changing her appearance to fit her female gender. I don't know if she still feels that way, but I appreciated it at the time.
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu May 30, 2019 4:33 pm UTC

So she was not dysphoric about her physical body in and of itself, and just wanted to be socially treated as a woman, only making the cosmetic changes to achieve the latter result? I know you probably can't speak for her extensively, but that makes me curious what change in social treatment she was looking for specifically, like if she could make a magic wish to have it socially acceptable to not make all those cosmetic changes and yet still be accepted as a woman, what changes in other people's behavior would constitute them treating her as a woman?
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby Zohar » Thu May 30, 2019 4:50 pm UTC

I'm not entirely sure, really. I do think she's not particularly unique in that, though. There are plenty of butch and stone-butch lesbians, for instance, who still definitely identify as women and expect to be treated as women despite their traditionally-masculine appearance. That's true for some effeminate men too, but to a lesser extent I think.
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby PAstrychef » Thu May 30, 2019 5:24 pm UTC

Heck, I’m as heterosexual as it gets and I get called sir because I’m wearing jeans and a tee shirt and a hat and have short hair. The “oopsie” face when they notice the boobs is pretty funny.
I think that part of the TERF viewpoint is that people born as female have been getting the short end of the stick fit a very long time now, and here come these people who have enjoyed the privileges of having male genitals showing up and and claiming to be suffering just as much. That they could put on pants (as it were) and reclaim that privilege any time. That they want the fun parts-dressing up, clothes, and so on, but get to skip the menstruation. The TERFs see most of the psychology of trans sexuality as self-serving handwavium.
A trans woman I know complained that some guys on a bus made a rude comment about her looks-we had to explain that wasn’t her being trans, but she is a middle-aged, plain woman. That shit happens to women all the time, and we get told to get over it, ignore it, etc.
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby chridd » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:56 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Like, it seems to me that the TERFs' basic position is "nobody should be locked into any particular role or presentation based on their sex", [......] take to mean a (nominal) change of sex, rather than of gender.
I think this is roughly how I used to see gender, before I started understanding gender better a few years ago.

…whereas
PAstrychef wrote:I think that part of the TERF viewpoint is that people born as female have been getting the short end of the stick fit a very long time now, [......] The TERFs see most of the psychology of trans sexuality as self-serving handwavium.
is definitely not how I felt (though, granted, I'm not AFAB), and some part of me suspects I'd have to have different views about more than just gender to feel that way. (Even if I thought it were true, I'm not sure I'd consider it a reason to dislike trans people; people getting to experience the fun parts of a thing without the bad parts seems like it should be a good thing. Also, it seems unlikely to me that there aren't at least some some cis men somewhere who have things as bad as a typical cis woman, and also cis women who have things as good as a typical cis man (and it would be weird to consider those people not women).)

…which makes me wonder if the people who have the first set of views are different from the people with the second set of views…

(Also, from what I've heard, at least some trans women on estrogen do have period symptoms, though without the bleeding.)
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Re: Philosophy and science of gender and sex

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:29 am UTC

TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist (Which I only knew because it came up recently in the sinfest thread where The Great Hippo was kind enough to define their acronyms)
AFAB = Assigned Female At Birth (Which I've probably seen before, but had to look up to remind myself what it meant.)

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