So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

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Are you voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Yes
52
31%
No
91
54%
No, I'm a neocon
5
3%
Yes, and I coded the voting machine; expect a landslide
20
12%
 
Total votes: 168

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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Gelsamel » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:53 am UTC

mosc wrote:Did the Ronpaul actually come down against evolution? T/F?


Who cares what ridiculous opinions he holds when he said numerous times that he will not enforce his opinion on people and he'd let people be free to do and choose what ever they want.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby fjafjan » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:40 am UTC

mosc wrote:Did the Ronpaul actually come down against evolution? T/F?

He did, there was a link earlier in the thread I believe where a guy asks him and he says no. As for who cares I personally care as it is for someone with any skill of evaluation evidence and coming to a correct conclusion not a hard question, so the fact that he failed so utterly does say something about his judgment and perhaps intelligence.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
mosc wrote:Did the Ronpaul actually come down against evolution? T/F?


Who cares what ridiculous opinions he holds when he said numerous times that he will not enforce his opinion on people and he'd let people be free to do and choose what ever they want.

his entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Indon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:23 pm UTC

mosc wrote:his entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?


Enforce the law as presently written, command the military in times of war? There are a couple other points.

Much of what presidents promise to do nowadays is outside of the original purview of their jobs - they have veto power, but it doesn't seem that they were originally intended on having influence on what Congress produced. Making laws is supposedly the job of Congress, our legislative branch of government.

I'm not saying that the evolution of our government is bad, in fact I kind of favor a decently strong presidential position (maybe a bit weaker than recent presidents have made it). But the President still has an entire job outside of trying to influence legislation.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Vaniver » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:23 pm UTC

mosc wrote:his entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?
Well, his job description is upholding the Constitution and executing the laws that Congress passes.

He could hold the belief of "people should be able to believe what they want about evolution" as more important than the belief of "God created the heavens and the Earth."
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:31 pm UTC

The president proposes the budget. It's a little known and extremely important constitutional power. What he decides to give x dollars to and not y is extremely relevant to me and greatly based on his own personal feelings.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Vaniver » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:44 pm UTC

mosc wrote:The president proposes the budget. It's a little known and extremely important constitutional power.
The president proposes the budget because Congress passed a law in 1921 to have him propose the budget; it's not a Constitutionally granted power.

Congress then does whatever it wants with the budget (although, as always, they're subject to a presidential veto).
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Garm » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:30 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
mosc wrote:Did the Ronpaul actually come down against evolution? T/F?


Who cares what ridiculous opinions he holds when he said numerous times that he will not enforce his opinion on people and he'd let people be free to do and choose what ever they want.

his entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?


You're getting "The President" mixed up with George W. Bush. Vaniver is correct. Tho' I would amend his statement to say that the job of the president is to uphold the Constitution, not to shit on it.

While I do not care for the Ronpaul and will not vote for him I am pleased to see him destroying Guliani. I loathe Guliani, I merely disagree with Mr. Paul and were a Republican to win/steal the election I would rather it were Paul than pretty much everyone else.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Umlaut » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:08 pm UTC

While I agree that what a candidate will do in a situation is more relevant than why they do it some of the time, the underlying philosophy that leads to that decision is the most important thing. With the Ronpaul, his primary decision making philosophy is that people should get to make their own decisions, and the federal government doesn't get a say in that. If he was applying for a job as an educator, it would be different, but he isn't. Mike Huckabee is actually pretty similar in some ways, but would wield more power than he should (and nobody would stop him, as evidenced by Bush).

The reason philosophy is so important is that sometimes something unexpected comes up. For instance: some crazy mother fuckers fly two airplanes into two very symbolic buildings and kill a lot of people. People who voted for Bush believing that he was predictable got completely screwed when he was forced to deal with an attack on American soil. Everyone expected a peace-time president who'd just sit back, cut taxes, and privatize a bunch of stuff, but everything changed and he was suddenly leading the largest US troop mobilization since Vietnam. Now, if he had a solid philosophy that was similar to yours, voting for him wouldn't have caused this conflict, as he would have made a similar decision to what yours would have been.

Now to go back to the Jello example: what if Jello space aliens show up and want to teach humanity not only how to make healthy Jello but also about space travel to facilitate trade? You have an unexpected scenario in which your Jello-hating candidate would start an intergalactic war. Oops.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:01 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:He could hold the belief of "people should be able to believe what they want about evolution" as more important than the belief of "God created the heavens and the Earth."
Telling stupid people they're stupid is not a weakness ffs. Teaching evolution is an important part of development. Not some opt-in, elective!
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Malice » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:02 am UTC

Umlaut wrote:While I agree that what a candidate will do in a situation is more relevant than why they do it some of the time, the underlying philosophy that leads to that decision is the most important thing. With the Ronpaul, his primary decision making philosophy is that people should get to make their own decisions, and the federal government doesn't get a say in that.


From what I've read, Paul is absolutely fine with the state governments getting a say in that. For example, he believes state governments have the power to mandate religion, where federal governments don't. I view that as pretty insane; I for one don't trust my state government any more than I do my federal government.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby AbNo » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:14 am UTC

mosc wrote:His entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?


... interesting conecpt. That's a very good point.

Also though, isn't the process of voting (unfortunantly) now voting for someone who's ideas match yours the most?
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:41 pm UTC

AbNo wrote:
mosc wrote:His entire job description is pushing his personal beliefs on the rest of the country. If he didn't, what the hell else would he do as president?


... interesting conecpt. That's a very good point.

Also though, isn't the process of voting (unfortunantly) now voting for someone who's ideas match yours the most?

not all issues are equally important and not all voting choices are based on who you like the most. Sometimes you vote for a person who you like but more often you vote against someone you don't like by picking their only real competition or you vote for someone you generally don't like but you prefer their position on a specific issue.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Indon » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:02 pm UTC

Malice wrote:From what I've read, Paul is absolutely fine with the state governments getting a say in that. For example, he believes state governments have the power to mandate religion, where federal governments don't. I view that as pretty insane; I for one don't trust my state government any more than I do my federal government.


I trust the state governments less, myself. Strong state government setups have a 100% precedent for failure in our country, generally due to economic collapse.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Sytar » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:26 am UTC

I just read a webcomic where, apparently, it reveals that Munroe is a the Ronpaul supporter. This surprised me greatly, because Munroe seems like a very intelligent fellow, and Paul's economic policies struck me outrageous at first glance. As I read a little further, some of the policies seemed to make sense, and were in fact supported by worldly philosophers such as Hayek, Mises, and Friedman. But yet, I remained unconvinced that austrian free-market economics could truly do all it claimed. Sadly, I didn't encounter any truly informed debate through pages one through three, and it's with trepidation that I even consider reading the rest. I was really hoping for Munroe's defense of Paul in this topic, or at least someone considerably informed. Was I too hasty in abandoning this topic? Does it improve? If so, where?

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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby fjafjan » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:11 pm UTC

Sytar wrote:I just read a webcomic where, apparently, it reveals that Munroe is a the Ronpaul supporter. This surprised me greatly, because Munroe seems like a very intelligent fellow, and Paul's economic policies struck me outrageous at first glance. As I read a little further, some of the policies seemed to make sense, and were in fact supported by worldly philosophers such as Hayek, Mises, and Friedman. But yet, I remained unconvinced that Austrian free-market economics could truly do all it claimed. Sadly, I didn't encounter any truly informed debate through pages one through three, and it's with trepidation that I even consider reading the rest. I was really hoping for Munroe's defense of Paul in this topic, or at least someone considerably informed. Was I too hasty in abandoning this topic? Does it improve? If so, where?

According to Munroe's previous roommate it is very doubtful that Munroe is actually a libertarian, but rather he is making fun of the crazy fan mentality that alot of the Ronpaul fans display.

As for this topic I have been too lazy to keep arguing the number of points that exist against the Ronpaul continuously, but generally there is no good defense of the Ronpaul because his policies would be horribly destructive.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Yakk » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

http://www.tnr.com/downloads/solicitation.pdf

I'll show you crazy:
the Ronpaul wrote:I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me. Threats or no threats, I've laid bare the coming race war in our big cities. The federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS (my training as a physician helps me see through this one.) The Bohemian Grove--perverted, pagan playground of the powerful. Skull & Bones: the demonic fraternity that includes George Bush and leftist Senator John Kerry, Congress's Mr. New Money. The Israeli lobby, which plays Congress like a cheap harmonica.


the Ronpaul wrote:High officials who are whole owned subsidiaries of the Trilateral Commission...


the Ronpaul wrote:These totalitarian bills where tinted pink and blue and brown, and blighted with holograms, diffraction gratings, metal and plastic threads...


Heh.

the Ronpaul wrote:And popping out of the cake, with a big surprise!, will be an IRS agent with an AK-47.


And I hope bunny ears. That would be cute!

I maintain: the Ronpaul is a Nutjob.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:27 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:I maintain: the Ronpaul is a Nutjob.
I sometimes find myself in the uncomfortable position of simultaneously thinking RP tends to be honest about his views and hoping that what he's saying really isn't what he's thinking.

That said, I take most of the "look at this crazy thing RP said a long time ago!" with a grain of salt.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Yakk » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:42 pm UTC

I admit that the Ronpaul is not currently being marketed as a racist, homophobic, conspiracy-theory nutjob.

So those who fell for his current screed are just guilty of not looking at his voting record, his previous statements, and his general history of being a nutjob -- I strongly suspect that the majority of his supporters don't know who they are supporting, and are enthused by the movement.

That doesn't prevent the Ronpaul from being a nutjob...

A congresscritter who gives many many interviews to a white surpremist organization over the period of 3 years, who publishes a newletter full of hate for 30 years while claiming that he never read it (it was published 60 miles away, clearly too far for him to read it...), who is on the record defending the rants in those letters and later denounces them, and who regularly votes against any kind of voting rights legislation: he's either utterly incompetent, someone who pandered to racists in order to get money and support, or a racist who is trying to market himself to a mass audience.

He's a nutjob.

I don't get why you'd presume that he's honest about his views? Because he's charismatic and convincing?
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Indon » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:58 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:He's a nutjob.

I don't get why you'd presume that he's honest about his views? Because he's charismatic and convincing?


Because as you noted, his voting record is actually indicative of his views. This is not true for a politician without integrity, who is willing to trade votes to see bills through, and so on.

the Ronpaul seems to have integrity (to include honesty), and very strong beliefs which he sticks to. He's also a nutjob. If I were republican, it'd be a tough decision, integrity is a pretty awesome quality for a politician to have.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:05 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:So those who fell for his current screed are just guilty of not looking at his voting record, his previous statements, and his general history of being a nutjob -- I strongly suspect that the majority of his supporters don't know who they are supporting, and are enthused by the movement.
It could be that or it could be that they only looked up the parts they cared about (like his votes on taxation) and are either unsurprised or uncaring that someone that grew up in the 40s may have had (and may still have) racist views.

Yakk wrote:I don't get why you'd presume that he's honest about his views? Because he's charismatic and convincing?
That's an interesting question. The first answer I thought of is "because no one would pay him to say that," which his fundraising shows is demonstrably untrue. The second answer I came up with is "because he hasn't participated in a number of Congressional perks because of his principles." I don't think it's charisma (I hate the sound of his voice, it's worse than Bush's), but I do agree that his support could stem from people focusing on the libertarian banner instead of the man waving it.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:16 pm UTC

it's not really him. I've just always had an inherent mistrust of people where libertarians tend to have some inherent mistrust for government. It's just a philosophical thing I guess. I think corporate and personal greed are much stronger than government corruption in our society but I guess if you view it in reverse, the Ronpaul is more appealing with his "hands off" attitude.

I find particularly hard to swallow having any trust at all in the states on social issues. State government is a largely failed experiment IMHO and one who's power should be further limited as it has gradually for over 200 years.
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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby XCKDRocks » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:34 pm UTC

I think this must be the only internet poll the Ronpaul is not winning.

Not voting for Paul.

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Re: So who's voting for the Ronpaul in the primaries?

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:55 pm UTC

try reading the thread some more... you're far from alone
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