What kind of society is this?

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What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:17 pm UTC

It really makes me sick to read things like:

when i was with my ex, i got pregnant by him,3 times, and each time, he didnt want it, he made me get rid of it.


and:

when i was 16 i found out that i was pregnant i dident know wat to do or ware to go ..i have plans of becoming a lawyer when i finish school..so i takled to my bf and he said it was all up to me soo i did have the abortion and i dident feel guilty about it at all..


A lawyer????

Even if it were different subject matter, the grammar alone would make me sick. Basically, this is just one more problem with the world (or with this society) today. Whatever shall we do about it?

http://forum.sofeminine.co.uk/forum/f61 ... rtion.html

And this is even worse (but at least the responses are more reasonable):

http://isitnormal.com/story/8830/

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:20 pm UTC

The first one is bad, I suppose, because of the coercion involved (though, let's be real: it's unlikely that he *made* her get rid of them, since most abortion clinics won't serve you if your boyfriend is holding a gun to your head...).

The second one? She had a life planned that didn't involve a kid. She took preventative steps. The only thing wrong with that is the grammar and spelling, ick.

So maybe you can explain why this is the downfall of society as we know it? (and if this is just a "hahah, they have bad grammar on other forums" post, you could also explain why it's in SB)
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:25 pm UTC

What specifically do you take issue with and want changed?

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby mosc » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:29 pm UTC

I can't say the teen pregnancy really strikes me as so groundbreaking. We're a species that is biologically designed to procreate much younger than 18 and through much of our history, we always have. Similarly on the language, I think the evolution of grammar and vocabulary is nothing new, it's just far more visible with today's technology bringing people from across the world together routinely. Also human nature seems to include some internal fear of change or people different than yourself. The assumption that our perspective is superior is as ingrained as any inherent survival skill.

I do fear a culture that dislikes education however. We seem to be mistrusting of the educated and become suspicious of the motives of articulate speakers. It's one thing to disregard spelling and grammar conventions but to actually discriminate against the educated is another.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby rachel » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:33 pm UTC

If i were to get pregnant right now, I'd have an abortion. Some people just aren't ready for kids and it's completely up to them whether or not they'd like to keep it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live your life and not letting the fact that an accident happened prevent that.

The first instance, though, sickens me. To use abortion as your method of birth control is a bad route to go. I'm sure that, if they were taking proper precautions, it wouldn't have happened three times. And no one makes you do something, you decide to do it on your own.


What we could do about it: instead of teaching abstinence as the only form of birth control in schools (which is how it is, as far as I know, with anyone I've talked to in all sorts of various locations), you could teach actual forms of birth control and how to use it properly. There could be more free clinics where you can get birth control and condoms, and there could be more ways of letting people know that is an option.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:13 pm UTC

My issue wasn't really with the fact that teen pregnancy is prevalent. . .I'd expect that out of humans. Nor was it an issue with the articulacy of the speakers, except inasmuch as it may reflect on their education (or lack thereof).

My bone of contention is that teens can get pregnant and get abortions 3 times without ever learning anything about how to prevent it. That there are still people who don't receive such basic education. My intent was not to express discrimination against the uneducated, but rather to ask, why are they so poorly educated in the first place? What can we do to improve things? I have no specific suggestions or proposals, but please don't tell me I'm the only one who thinks these situations shouldn't come up. . .

Belial wrote:She took preventative steps.


Nothing in that posting reflected any preventative measures she took or was taking. If she had hopes and dreams, she should have known what sort of preventative measures were available before she got pregnant for a second time (much less the fifth and sixth times), and someone has to be responsible for her education in these respects. . . .

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby mosc » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:29 pm UTC

be thankful they can write at all. Literacy is falling. If they missed out on first grade reading, is it any surprise they skipped middle school sex ed?
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:31 pm UTC

I am thankful they can write, and disappointed they can't do much more.

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:51 pm UTC

quintopia wrote:
Belial wrote:She took preventative steps.


Nothing in that posting reflected any preventative measures she took or was taking. If she had hopes and dreams, she should have known what sort of preventative measures were available before she got pregnant for a second time (much less the fifth and sixth times), and someone has to be responsible for her education in these respects. . . .


The preventative step I was referring to was the abortion itself. People say things like "You shouldn't use abortions as birth control" but that's what they are.

They're just not the most efficient first method. They're pretty neat as a last line of defense, though.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:56 pm UTC

They are a preventative measure for babies, yes, but not for pregnancy. I guess I was paralleling teenage pregnacy with an illness which may result in parenthood or death. In which case, condoms are your vitamin C and abortions are your high-powered antibiotics.

But I bet no one told these people about getting enough vitamin C to prevent illness either. . .

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby mosc » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:00 am UTC

or to look both ways before you cross the street. What's the point? The average education on this planet being disgustingly low is nothing new.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Gelsamel » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 am UTC

mosc wrote:or to look both ways before you cross the street. What's the point? The average education on this planet being disgustingly low is nothing new.


Ah well, more stupid people will die then. Net 'natural' selection in the direction of smart people - lets hope this counteracts us not having babies because the world is overpopulated as it is :p.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:35 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
mosc wrote:or to look both ways before you cross the street. What's the point? The average education on this planet being disgustingly low is nothing new.


Ah well, more stupid people will die then. Net 'natural' selection in the direction of smart people - lets hope this counteracts us not having babies because the world is overpopulated as it is :p.


It's not a new problem, and I find it appalling. And natural selection has a tendency never to favor those who don't reproduce.

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:36 am UTC

Lesson: We need to round smart people and stick them in Fuck-Farming Camps. If they won't reproduce on their own, we need to make them.

:twisted:
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:46 am UTC

Or just sterilize the stupid until the world population drops to a point where the smart feel the need to breed.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:04 am UTC

I feel like Belial has ceased to joke. I hereby decree that when I become king of the world, I will put this plan into effect. And I will design the test that you have to pass to make babies.

And for God's sake, could someone please post a more feasible long term solution for this problem, before this thread is derailed entirely?

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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:09 am UTC

The non-joking long-term solution to this is to keep educating, really.

Things are getting better. At least people kindof understand what birth control is and how people get pregnant. TSome of them even know how to decide they're not ready.

It's an improvement.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Malsies » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:14 am UTC

I think one of the problems is that we pump kids full of all this "You can be whatever you want!" crap. No, you can't. You're limited by your abilities and your education (or lack thereof). So many great people got where they are by overcoming ADVERSITY, not by being coddled the whole way. You can't make bad life decisions and still be wealthy and successful. Unless you're a rock star.

Or maybe I'm just bitter because my parents were harder on me.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:15 am UTC

Belial wrote:Or just sterilize the stupid until the world population drops to a point where the smart feel the need to breed.

Right, except my plan didn't involve sterilizing anyone. Instead, it involved lots of nerds losing their virginity. Which sounds better?

Sterilization? Sex? Sterilization? Sex?

Or maybe I'm just bitter because my parents were harder on me.

Welcome to the club, bitch. </joke>
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Pai » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:32 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Right, except my plan didn't involve sterilizing anyone. Instead, it involved lots of nerds losing their virginity. Which sounds better?

Sterilization? Sex? Sterilization? Sex?


People who have had their tubes tied or had vasectomies/etc can have sex just fine while simultaneously being sterile.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Shadowfish » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am UTC

quintopia wrote:And for God's sake, could someone please post a more feasible long term solution for this problem, before this thread is derailed entirely?


In a large part, I think, a symptom of a larger problem in the with the school system. In part, this could be remedied through increased funding to schools. At least, then, all students could have access to a good education.

There is a deeper problem, of students not wanting to learn. I have no solution to this.

Side note:

My school had its taught both abstinence and birth control. We had speakers visit from both planned parenthood and some Christian group. The planned parenthood presentation did more to discourage the students from having unsafe sex. Hearing about STDs works a lot better than hearing how much better sex is if you are married.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:36 am UTC

Well yes, but don't we usually regard sterilization as, you know, wrong?

It is last time I heard. So I'd much rather take hot sex than horrible, nasty sterilization.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:42 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Well yes, but don't we usually regard sterilization as, you know, wrong?


I assume you mean forced sterilization? Because I am all about some voluntary sterilization. Whoo, all the sex I want and no pregnancy ever!
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:43 am UTC

Don't you lose sex drive and capability after sterilization, though? I thought we had important glands in those balls and ovaries.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Maurog » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:47 am UTC

There are many kinds of sterilization, some of them (like vasectomy) not affecting your sex drive in any way.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Pai » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:37 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Don't you lose sex drive and capability after sterilization, though? I thought we had important glands in those balls and ovaries.


Tubal ligations and vasectomies simply cuts the connecting tubes from the sources (ovaries and testes) so the eggs can't reach the womb and sperm can't be released into the seminal fluid, respectively. Everything is left in working order, and you still get the hormones/jizz just as if you weren't ever operated on. Just no ovulation or ability to impregnate. These are very often surgically reversible as well.

However, outright castration/hysterectomies are the actual removal of the organs themselves. They're far more major surgeries, and usually only happen for serious health reasons like ovarian/uterine cancer, etc. And those procedures are the ones that also mess with the sex drive/ability.

But you don't have to go to that kind of extreme to be sterilized.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Solt » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:55 am UTC

quintopia wrote:My bone of contention is that teens can get pregnant and get abortions 3 times without ever learning anything about how to prevent it. That there are still people who don't receive such basic education.


It's easy to point to the worst elements of society, its failings, and say "what kind of society is this?" Is it fallacious? Not necessarily. Does it ignore the big picture? Most certainly. For example, you obviously haven't considered the One Laptop Per Child initiative, which works to address problems like this in third world countries by giving children greater access to education. That such an initiative could ever come into existence in this world would be my reason for having optimism about "this society".

What sickens me is the elitism on this board:

mosc wrote:or to look both ways before you cross the street. What's the point? The average education on this planet being disgustingly low is nothing new.

Gelsamel wrote:Ah well, more stupid people will die then. Net 'natural' selection in the direction of smart people - lets hope this counteracts us not having babies because the world is overpopulated as it is :p.

aleflamedyud wrote:Lesson: We need to round smart people and stick them in Fuck-Farming Camps. If they won't reproduce on their own, we need to make them.

Belial wrote:Or just sterilize the stupid until the world population drops to a point where the smart feel the need to breed.

quintopia wrote:And I will design the test that you have to pass to make babies.



You people are SICK. This borders on genocide and religious-style extremism.

Fortunately you're the ones that are in fact worth nothing, good for little more than talking about how much better you are than everyone else.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:02 am UTC

Let me be the first to say...

You Have Been Trolled. You Have Lost. Have a Nice Day.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Solt » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:05 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Let me be the first to say...

You Have Been Trolled. You Have Lost. Have a Nice Day.


You're obviously new here. If I had the inclination I could find hundreds if not thousands of similar statements all throughout Serious Business.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:09 am UTC

Hahah.

Or, you could read more than just the parts that confirm your image of our total depravity...

quintopia wrote:I feel like Belial has ceased to joke.


...implying that we were joking before...

Belial wrote:The non-joking long-term solution to this is to keep educating, really.


...confirming it, and offering the serious solution. Funny how the meaning changes when you read entire posts.

Also, to take a moment, "genocide", when applied to the situation described, would imply that a) "stupid" was an ethnic group or nationality, b) that we had proposed actually killing anyone.

Just one of those semantic issues.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:11 am UTC

Well I was half trolling, half joking. We'd all get quite tired after being used as human breeding stock for too long.

Do people on this board really think like that ("Oh, let's just sterilize the stupid people, or at least stick them in school until they have a shrinking population like us.")? Holy shit, I thought I got away from that when I left Reddit.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:17 am UTC

"Oh, let's just sterilize the stupid people, or at least stick them in school until they have a shrinking population like us."


The first one? I'd do it if I thought they'd take it. Not because I think stupid is particularly genetic, but because I think we could use fewer people, and that seems as good a place to start as any. I recognize this isn't a workable solution, though. People get uppity about that sort of thing. As someone who has *nightmares* about the idea of having kids, I don't really *get* why they care so much, but they do, so whatevs.

The second? More education is never a bad thing and if it causes a decline in the human population, put me down for "Hells yes"
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Beyondthewall » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:18 am UTC

Solt wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:Let me be the first to say...

You Have Been Trolled. You Have Lost. Have a Nice Day.


You're obviously new here. If I had the inclination I could find hundreds if not thousands of similar statements all throughout Serious Business.


I thought he was referring to you, meself. No offense.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:23 am UTC

No offense taken. A troll statement will elicit responses of general shock and anger at the sickening stupidity/elitism/depravity/genocide of the statement itself.

But it looks more like he was referring to a list of statements, of which I can only take Troll Points for one.

Irony tags, people. I shouldn't actually have to write them.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby Beyondthewall » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:32 am UTC

Damn, I can't communicate today. Clarification: I thought aleflamedyud was referring to Solt.

Moving along to actually contribute something.
In the first instance, while yes it makes me cringe for people to learn so slowly, I also see a problem in the female being allowed to choose not to have an abortion and force the male to pay child support when the male can't do the same. Or, more topically, I see a problem in the female being allowed to have an abortion without input from the male but the male not being allowed to force an abortion without input from the female. I don't really care which you have. But under the current system, I can also sympathize somewhat with males who "force" their partners to get abortions. Not that this makes the use of force any wrong in this situation.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:45 am UTC

There is absolutely no reason any man should ever have the right to force an abortion on a woman, nor should we sympathize with those who do.

But I actually agree with the main thrust of your point. If a couple took reasonable precautions (excluding abstinence) to avoid pregnancy, it still happens, and they disagree on whether to keep the child, we shouldn't force fatherhood on the man any more than we force motherhood on the woman. After all, the woman does have every choice to abort the child or just give it up for adoption. She has no right to ruin the life of her (by now) ex-boyfriend because he got a bad roll on the "Will my condom work?" D20, nor because her -20-Fertility Pill stopped working all of a sudden.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that we should generally try to avoid ruining people's lives for honest mistakes.

Edit: Yes, I was telling Solt he'd been trolled. Quite successfully trolled by most of the rest of the topic. Remember, nobody ever seriously proposes to reconstitute most of society around their personal ideas. The effort involved is beyond most of our lazy asses, even the most Evil-Overlording of us.
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Re: What kind of society is this?

Postby quintopia » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:37 pm UTC

@troll/solt: Of course I'm aware of the OLPC, and I'm glad to know such a thing exists. But then again, there are ways to educate people here in the 1st world that don't require $100 laptops. . .


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