Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:43 pm UTC

cathrl wrote:What I really don't get is why it has to be one or the other.


First Amendment to the United States Constitution, basically..

Some dead white guys wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


That's the stickler. By various interpretations of that, the US Government is not allowed to prohibit anyone from worshiping whatever they want however they want (provided it does no harm) but by the same token, they are not allowed to support one religion over the other.

Various groups maintain that government should be completely out of the religious business, going so far as to want "In God We Trust" removed from our currency. Others pretty much believe it to mean that one's allowed to practice whichever branch of Christianity one chooses.

Thankfully, most sane individuals are in the middle, not really caring if God is mentioned on our currency, but also not caring if someone wants to worship the Demon Beast Ruby-Eyed Shabranigdo. Unfortunately, these people are the most likely to not vote.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:50 pm UTC

jynjin wrote:I was RAISED in a Jesus Camp setting. The whole thing is accurate in its depiction of extreme fundamentalist Christianity and the brainwashing/indoctrination, my dear sir. There is indeed preaching from the pulpit instructing the congregates on how to vote, which candidate has God's favour, how all Democrats are demonically influenced, and how they must all "support Bush without question because God placed him in presidency". I've witnessed it. It's disgusting and unfortunate.


I was trying to walk on glass here because I'm sure there are people out there who were raised by religious fundamentalists who weren't insane, but if you were to strip my chitinous flesh bare you would find my blackened, withered heart beating with nothing but spite for this particular permutation of The Crazytm. Someone very close to me was raised in the same sort of environment, and it really fucked her up because she absolutely loves biology. Because of this intense interest she spent her formative years being force-fed arguments against secular biology. Needless to say, now she's out of that environment, has stacks of real biology books as high as I am tall, and is busily totally ruining all of her biology tests' shit.

Also, did I misunderstand cathrl's point? I thought they were merely expressing that it's possible for a secular government to get along with religion--that a secular government does not have to be antagonistic towards religion, merely separate. I totally agree with that, at least.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Antimatter Spork » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:54 pm UTC

Frankly, I remain astounded that any group can claim to be oppressed or under attack when:

  • To be president of the united states, it is an unwritten requirement (there's no legal objection, but good luck getting elected if you aren't protestant) that you be a member
  • Federal, State, and Local government recognize your Holidays almost universally, but it's rare for any other religion's holidays to be observed at all, and even then, it's likely just a token observation to get rid of whiners.
  • The vast majority of the country at least claims to subscribe to your beliefs

Attention Christians: You are not being oppressed. You are not "under attack". The "War on Christmas" is the sole construct of your own feverish imaginations and persecution complex. Get over it.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hench » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:29 pm UTC

I fail to see how most people don't see how a "live and let live" mentality isn't obviously the way to go. You want to be Christian? Neat, have fun. You don't want to have a religion? Sure, go ahead.

The lack of respect many people have for their fellow human beings and their ideas shocks and disappoints me incredibly.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:38 pm UTC

Hench wrote:I fail to see how most people don't see how a "live and let live" mentality isn't obviously the way to go. You want to be Christian? Neat, have fun. You don't want to have a religion? Sure, go ahead.


I think it has a lot to do with wanting to see your particular brand of crazy survive beyond your life-time. People treat their beliefs like they treat their children; they want to see them survive and grow. Beyond that, when you chain your identity to a belief, the spread of that belief merely confirms your sense of identity and makes you feel all warm and gooey inside.

Because of this, a lot of religious folks (and a few hardline atheists) do everything in their power to completely annihilate each other. Really, though, I think it's just a case of 'YOU GOT YOUR STINKY CHEESE IN MY SOUP, NO YOU GOT YOUR STINKY SOUP IN MY CHEESE'. So long as we make a good hard cleave between irrational human beliefs (and no, just because something is irrational does not mean it's BAD) and rational concerns (science and government), we should be fine.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:54 pm UTC

EDIT: Sorry Belial. I'll post it elsewhere.

i nod to the superior History Recollection skills of Hippo.

Separation of religion and state should be complete. None of this nation under god, christmas being a government holiday, lets equalize the playing field for all of americans, regardless of their religion. Religious institutions should be classified as a business, or at least some kind of business (and a board can verify that its not a scam, but someone who knows more about taxing religious institutions property will have to expound on this), but I feel as though if Microsoft employees were found to be molesting little boys, they would have been pursecuted far more severely then those priests were, i think.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:03 pm UTC

Gay marriage/civil unions/etcetera is also another thread.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hangar » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:17 pm UTC

The thing about Christmas is that it's become more of a cultural celebration than a Christian one. Easter is the most important holiday on the Christian calendar. Even Hanukkah's more of a secular holiday. There are many, many people who consider themselves Christian and don't go to church, or only go on Chirstmas Eve, and sometimes Easter, the same way many Jews only go on Yom Kippur. The whole "attack on Christmas thing" isn't seen so much as an attack on Chirstianity as it is an attack on tradition. People remember the old, intolerant days before the media became PC with fondness. It's just much simpler if you're able to assume people are Christian. That doesn't make it right; it's just people resisting change because the old traditions were easier, but I'm just saying it's not a wholly religious thing.

And I'd like to say when religion enters politics, and not just culture, it's not that different from how people group things in the ideals of "right-wing" versus "left-wing" or "liberal" versus "conservative." I've always hated the ideas of "right" and "left," but it took a book (The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera) for me to understand why, and that "liberal" and "conservative" are just as ill-defined.

The idea is based upon the concept of kitsch. After speaking about the idea that everyone shits, but we all try to hide it and act as if it never happens (it's more complicated than that, though), he goes on to say (translated from Czech):

It follows then, that the aesthetic ideal of the categorical agreement with being is a world in which shit is denied and everyone acts as though it did not exist. This aesthetic ideal is called kitsch.

Kitsch is a German word born from middle of the sentimental nineteenth century, and from German it entered all Western languages. Repeated use, however, has obliterated its original metaphysical meaning: kitsch is the absolute denial of shit, in both the literal and figurative senses of the word; kitsch excludes everything from its purview which is essentially unacceptable in human existence.


Kitsch is the idea that we ignore what we believe is bad in certain ideas, so that we can believe those ideas to be right. It's a defense mechanism, and we all do it. Don't think you're above it, because no one is. For example, when discussing some cultural differences between America and Ireland with a guy I know from Ireland, he mentioned how when he came to America, people seemed to be more reluctant to give others rides. Where he came from, it was assumed that it was no problem to drive an hour out of the way to drop someone off, but over here, people were more reluctant to give others a ride if it wasn't on the way. This didn't fit with my idea of Californians generally being nice, accommodating people. I was thinking that, as I was doing right then, the difference was that most people would give a ride if asked, but those asking would be more reluctant to make the driver go out of the way. So I asked him about it, and he originally lived in New York, then came out to California. I was able to satisfy my ideals by grouping this issue under differences between the West Coast and East Coast, and assuming that people in New York had spoiled his view of Americans in this sense. But it left a bad taste in my mouth to do so.

I realized that what I was doing, was fitting new, incongruous data into an old model (sterotype) that probably wasn't accurate. This is the idea of kitsch. You modify every incoming piece of data so that it fits with your current view of the world. This is how KKK members meet intelligent black people, yet rationalize, "black people are still bad; one-on-one they don't show it, but when you get a group together, you see the ugliness come out." Taking in images of race riots gone bad to complete the picture, completely ignoring all-white events (such as cross-burnings) where white people act the same way in groups, assuming white people were justified in some way.

But, to apply this to the current discussion, it's kitsch when people try to mix government and religion. It goes back to what people are taught as children in school. No matter how intelligent you are, the first things you hear are the things you compare everything else to. Fundamentalist Christian children grow up hearing "America's good" and "Christianity's good." And so, everything that fits those ideas is easier to believe. The Republican party has picked up on this group of people and mixed it with conservatism. "America, and Christianity are good, and let's do everything we can to keep it that way." So they use issues like abortion to prove that they're part of this Republican kitsch, and then tell the people that issues such as tax breaks for the rich and massive defense spending fit this kitsch as well. That's the reason for religion in politics today.

I was raised in the liberal leftist kitsch, and in a nonfundamental Christian kitsch. I can't shake the inborn feeling that racism is wrong, and volunteer work is good. Kitsch isn't necessarily bad, but it makes it hard sometimes to keep an open mind and makes it easier to pass judgment on people. Kitsch is the reason for stereotypes and a lot of intolerance. You can think about it as the context of "good" vs "bad" and "right" vs "wrong." (So it would take acceptance of some kitsch to declare kitsch bad.)

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby malarkie » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:44 pm UTC

Don't take the fevered rantings of a few pundits (Coulter, Robertson) and associate that with the whole party. There are just as many Democrats who preach the democratic equivalent of hatemongering.


As a christian and a republican, I have to say that there are a lot of people who identify themselves as such who are stupid muther-f@#$ers. There is a small amount of us who are trying to bring some sense of balance to the republican party. And it may work, we are smarter than the majority.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Hangar » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:52 pm UTC

If that was directed to my post, I want to say that was not my intention at all. Kitsch isn't about hate-mongering, it's just the feeling of shared experience. MLK defined a kitsch to help share his ideas. Kitsch isn't about making it an us-versus-them, it's just about making an us.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:23 pm UTC

Kitsch means denial of shit? I was under the impression that kitsch=chotchskies, junk, crap, stuff.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Ari » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:31 pm UTC

malarkie wrote:As a christian and a republican, I have to say that there are a lot of people who identify themselves as such who are stupid muther-f@#$ers. There is a small amount of us who are trying to bring some sense of balance to the republican party. And it may work, we are smarter than the majority.


Let us hope that people like you get in charge then, and start convincing the others that social interference alienates the more "left" voters in the same way that high taxes alienate the more "right" voters ;)
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Shabooty » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:49 pm UTC

Antimatter Spork wrote:Frankly, I remain astounded that any group can claim to be oppressed or under attack when:

  • To be president of the united states, it is an unwritten requirement (there's no legal objection, but good luck getting elected if you aren't protestant) that you be a member
  • Federal, State, and Local government recognize your Holidays almost universally, but it's rare for any other religion's holidays to be observed at all, and even then, it's likely just a token observation to get rid of whiners.
  • The vast majority of the country at least claims to subscribe to your beliefs

Attention Christians: You are not being oppressed. You are not "under attack". The "War on Christmas" is the sole construct of your own feverish imaginations and persecution complex. Get over it.


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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby oxoiron » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:59 am UTC

malarkie wrote:There is a small amount of us who are trying to bring some sense of balance to the republican party. And it may work, we are smarter than the majority.

You may be smarter, but they are still the majority. :(
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:47 am UTC

That fits perfectly with your signature.

Anyway, I just thought I'd point something out...

For those calling for peace: Realize, that at this juncture, both cannot coexist, for all of the reasons stated above. If you want peace, you will have to destroy one. At the moment, that will be the atheists. In some places, atheists may survive, but looking at the American situation, the atheists will be buried.

Why can they not coexist? They cannot agree with each other. One's stubbornness causes the other's belligerence. One's rabid (if I may use that word without connotation) curiousity threatens the other. Everything about one fuels something in the other, and vice versa, in an interlocking tracery of problems.

What inspired version "annihilation" of this series of events? Cynicism, to be sure, with a healthy dose of paying attention. (This thread provides a great deal of evidence for this viewpoint, and the reason it was spoken is also present, so I felt it may as well be shared)

That is all concerning that.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Herman » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:04 pm UTC

Yeah, I agree. Religion is incompatible with religious pluralism. Devout people don't think of their religion as a private hobby, they think of it as something that applies to everyone. And *nothing* is more important.

You can get away with pluralism for a while, if the vast majority secretly doesn't care one way or the other. I hope we can keep it going for a while longer. But it's unstable -- ultimately, you can either have a society with one pre-eminent religion, with everyone else marginalized, or one that's totally secular, with religious people marginalized.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Lumpy » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:46 pm UTC

Tony Blair has converted to Catholicism, sparking criticism from a Conservative Party Catholic that thinks Blair didn't let religion influence his job enough. Also, there are some comments pointing out that it is probably inappropriate for a "closet Catholic" to appoint the head of the Anglican Church. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7157409.stm

Meanwhile, the newly elected head of the Liberal Democratic Party answered he didn't believe in God when asked on BBC Radio. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7151346.stm

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Malice » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:20 am UTC

Herman wrote:Yeah, I agree. Religion is incompatible with religious pluralism. Devout people don't think of their religion as a private hobby, they think of it as something that applies to everyone. And *nothing* is more important.


If their beliefs are true, nothing is.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Herman » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:39 am UTC

'Zactly. If their beliefs are true, everyone should be converted, at whatever cost. But they believe their beliefs are true. So the logical conclusion of religion is the subbordination of every other value system, including democracy and pluralism and freedom of thought and stuff.

If you've read Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead series, religious people are ramen only to the extent that they don't really believe.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby athelas » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:20 pm UTC

In that case, assuming that you believe that a ruler should have other priorities, you're claiming that no religious person should ever hold political office. They should be banned from holding any public position. Uh. Good luck with that.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby jestingrabbit » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:52 pm UTC

Herman wrote:'Zactly. If their beliefs are true, everyone should be converted, at whatever cost. But they believe their beliefs are true. So the logical conclusion of religion is the subbordination of every other value system, including democracy and pluralism and freedom of thought and stuff.


Most religious people don't believe that conversion of others at any cost counts as true conversion. You're not talking about religious people, you're talking about a parody of religious people.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Khonsu » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:42 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
Herman wrote:'Zactly. If their beliefs are true, everyone should be converted, at whatever cost. But they believe their beliefs are true. So the logical conclusion of religion is the subbordination of every other value system, including democracy and pluralism and freedom of thought and stuff.


Most religious people don't believe that conversion of others at any cost counts as true conversion. You're not talking about religious people, you're talking about a parody of religious people.


I'd say I see a whole lot of parodies in the Midwest, regardless of faith. There are more parodies than actual concientious, compassionate religious folk.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Ari » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:56 pm UTC

Insignificant Deification wrote:For those calling for peace: Realize, that at this juncture, both cannot coexist, for all of the reasons stated above. If you want peace, you will have to destroy one. At the moment, that will be the atheists. In some places, atheists may survive, but looking at the American situation, the atheists will be buried.

Why can they not coexist? They cannot agree with each other. One's stubbornness causes the other's belligerence. One's rabid (if I may use that word without connotation) curiousity threatens the other. Everything about one fuels something in the other, and vice versa, in an interlocking tracery of problems.


Herman wrote:Yeah, I agree. Religion is incompatible with religious pluralism. Devout people don't think of their religion as a private hobby, they think of it as something that applies to everyone. And *nothing* is more important.

You can get away with pluralism for a while, if the vast majority secretly doesn't care one way or the other. I hope we can keep it going for a while longer. But it's unstable -- ultimately, you can either have a society with one pre-eminent religion, with everyone else marginalized, or one that's totally secular, with religious people marginalized.


Wow, that's an extreme point of view to say the least. Tell me, when did you lose faith in Democracy? Because let me make this clear- Democracy assumes a pluralistic society in one sense or another. Of course it's not a stable situation. Of course there is disagreement. But the supporters of pluralism know that disagreement is healthy. We like unstable situations! The best gymnasts deliberately unbalance themselves, and society is really no different.

The key is to be able to say "So we're different. Good for us." The key is to be able to defend the rights of others even when you dislike them. The key is to support people in saying things you don't believe.

And you're certainly wrong that nothing is more important to the religious than their religion. The key desire of religion is the hunger for trancendental belonging, and that belonging needs to be in more than one way in most cases. They don't just want religion. They want partners. They want family. And if you think the religious never compromise on their beliefs for the sake of their families, you need to get in touch with the gay community a bit more ;)
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:02 pm UTC

@Ari: Please, you misunderstand me. I do not say things cannot continue in this fashion, but if anyone wants peace between the religious types and the secular types, they must realize that it will come at the cost of the destruction of one of them.

See, pluralism doesn't exist amongst those that drive out people different from them (please, if you don't think this happens, read "Just Another Salem"). That is the problem, we can do a less-extreme version of Israel & Palestine, without the split governments and military action, but we cannot be together in harmony (in America at least, please remember that I am a British person speaking for what is evidently a large portion of America), as far too many will do anything in their power to stop that.

The thing is, I do defend the rights of all who are different from me, and I am a lesbian. However, I am disgusted with those I defend, and alienated from my family. In Britain where the problem is supposedly less so.

See, this would all go away if people lived like you want, pluralistically, willing to just leave it be on the differences. But they don't, so they won't.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Ari » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:13 am UTC

Insignificant Deification wrote:@Ari: Please, you misunderstand me. I do not say things cannot continue in this fashion, but if anyone wants peace between the religious types and the secular types, they must realize that it will come at the cost of the destruction of one of them.

See, pluralism doesn't exist amongst those that drive out people different from them (please, if you don't think this happens, read "Just Another Salem"). That is the problem, we can do a less-extreme version of Israel & Palestine, without the split governments and military action, but we cannot be together in harmony (in America at least, please remember that I am a British person speaking for what is evidently a large portion of America), as far too many will do anything in their power to stop that.

The thing is, I do defend the rights of all who are different from me, and I am a lesbian. However, I am disgusted with those I defend, and alienated from my family. In Britain where the problem is supposedly less so.

See, this would all go away if people lived like you want, pluralistically, willing to just leave it be on the differences. But they don't, so they won't.

[/Depressed]


Well, I certainly figured you didn't feel this state of affairs was desirable, I was just being provocative to try and outrage you out of accepting it ^_^

I know exactly what you mean about people who reject pluralism. (my mind is a fortress my mind is a fortress ;) ) That said, take heart- some people really are just swept along for the ride. Some of their "supporters" are pressured and even indoctrinated in some cases into following, and others are afraid and need help extricating themselves. In some cases, as is the case with parts of the church in New Zealand that I'm familiar with, the hatred that exists is actually very well hidden, and many people who support the church think it is a completely tolerant place that is just being slow in shrugging off conservatism.

Sadly, nowhere is really ideal to be out and gay, but some places are better than others. Britain isn't really as good as it touts itself to be, because as a country there are a lot of entrenched attitudes there that are going to be really hard to remove. (it took me long enough to get rid of the stuff they'd managed to convinced me of, that's for sure) I know New Zealand isn't so bad, but then again, New Zealanders almost never talk about relationships, let alone sexuality, so it's not as practical a hatred to have here, for the most part.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mastapsi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:38 am UTC

Khonsu wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:Most religious people don't believe that conversion of others at any cost counts as true conversion. You're not talking about religious people, you're talking about a parody of religious people.


I'd say I see a whole lot of parodies in the Midwest, regardless of faith. There are more parodies than actual concientious, compassionate religious folk.


That's because the conscientious, compassionate folks don't say anything since they don't want to get immediately labeled as the parody. I'd say its a rather even split.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:08 pm UTC

Insig. Dei. has it right in a very real sense. The religious right is created as the greedy, relatively rural Old Money upper classes attempt to rile the rural poor by fooling them into thinking the cultural uniformity of their lives is threatened.

To explain...

A poor person in a rural area, from Kentucky (way more so) to upstate New York (even so) grows up in a small community with extremely uniform religious views and racial composition (exception: the South). They don't receive a very solid education much of the time, especially because these people tend to feel that what we might view as a very solid education is an unjust imposition of a central government far away. So these people (at least the ones who stay) often grow up unable to cope with the diversities of the wider world, and why should they need to?

Well, because Rupert Murdoch puts it on TV that the Muslims from Over There are Coming Here To Get You. An illusion of a threat is created, and it helps that since many media outlets come out of the more diverse parts of the country they actually do find themselves required to cater to that diversity (thus "Merry Christmas" becomes "Happy Holidays" and all comedians speak some Yiddish). It doesn't work on people in the richer (and therefore better educated), more urban and more diverse parts of the country, but it doesn't really need to. The way our political system is set up, particularly the Electoral College and the Senate, the collective vote of the rural, poor, fundamentalist, uniform minority of the population translates into enough power to control the country, or at least hamper the efforts of the other party to get anything done.

Thus, the religious right has a single, uniform voting bloc they can appeal to with a single, uniform message.

Meanwhile, the "secular left" gets stuck in coalition building because there's no opposite of "small, highly uniform minority bloc", only "everyone else", which is much harder to rally into a single cause.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Pathway » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:42 pm UTC

GHW Bush did indeed say that.

Insignificant Deification wrote:
According to my colleague (I just wanted to say that word) above, George Bush Sr. said something to the effect that he was uncertain, or plainly lacking favor of the idea of atheists being citizens of the united states. The only part of the quote I remember is his reasoning: "This is one nation under god."


http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm is the first Google link I get for "george h.w. bush atheists."

as quoted in the article wrote:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.


Problem or no problem?

The Texas Constitution wrote:No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.


Problem or no problem?

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Pathway » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:50 pm UTC

hack124x768 wrote:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." ~Bush

This is just asking for a retort; Since when has Bush been a good example of ANYTHING?


It was the OLDER Bush. The smarter, more moderate one. The better leader. The one who knew enough not to push through and take out Saddam when we didn't have to, even though we could.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Vellyr » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:19 am UTC

I'm an agnostic, but I'm also very conservative. It really makes me ill the way liberals (obviously not the ones running for office, but the general population) are using anti-religious propaganda to discredit the right wing as a whole and get atheists and agnostics riled up for their socialist lunacy. It's even worse though that so many of the right-wing politicians are perpetuating this by running their campaigns based on their faith.

I really wish that there was a republican candidate out there that didn't let their religious mumbo-jumbo cloud their view of true conservative principles. I'll probably end up voting for Huckabee in the primary, despite his obnoxiously christian-based platform, just because he shares most of my views. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to choose between homosexual rights and the economy, which is a choice I wouldn't have to make if people were rational (or at least pretended to be when they ran for office).

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:59 am UTC

Could you perhaps direct me to your post in the the Ronpaul thread?
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby e946 » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:53 am UTC

Up until now, I hadn't noticed much if the imposing stuff in my own family, but after talking with many of them this weekend, I was wrong. One of my uncles went on a 10 minute rant about "those damn atheists", and [shame] my own mother says she feels like christianity is under an attack that will ultimately force christians back to the days of the catacombs[/shame].

Does it count as doublethink if you openly support separation of chruch and state but cite "this is a christian country" as a reason why God should be mentioned in the pledge?

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Khonsu » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:25 am UTC

Vellyr wrote:I really wish that there was a republican candidate out there that didn't let their religious mumbo-jumbo cloud their view of true conservative principles. I'll probably end up voting for Huckabee in the primary, despite his obnoxiously christian-based platform, just because he shares most of my views. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to choose between homosexual rights and the economy, which is a choice I wouldn't have to make if people were rational (or at least pretended to be when they ran for office).

I am so, so sorry. So you're a social moderate/liberal with fiscal conservatism? I am so sorry that neo-cons have taken over a very nice party. :< I don't dislike Republicans as a rule, but it seems that most Republicans I ever meet are getting more and more neo-con (American neo-con, not EU neo-con) as time goes on. Even my father, who raised me to be a tolerant but fiscally conservative person, has said the words "queer," "nigger," and "camel-jockey" more than once since he's been home. It's been LESS THAN A WEEK! Who stole my father?!

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:45 am UTC

e946 wrote:Does it count as doublethink if you openly support separation of chruch and state but cite "this is a christian country" as a reason why God should be mentioned in the pledge?


Nothing as sophisticated as doublethink. Just garden-variety hypocrisy.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Ari » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:00 am UTC

Vellyr wrote:I'm an agnostic, but I'm also very conservative. It really makes me ill the way liberals (obviously not the ones running for office, but the general population) are using anti-religious propaganda to discredit the right wing as a whole and get atheists and agnostics riled up for their socialist lunacy. It's even worse though that so many of the right-wing politicians are perpetuating this by running their campaigns based on their faith.

I really wish that there was a republican candidate out there that didn't let their religious mumbo-jumbo cloud their view of true conservative principles. I'll probably end up voting for Huckabee in the primary, despite his obnoxiously christian-based platform, just because he shares most of my views. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to choose between homosexual rights and the economy, which is a choice I wouldn't have to make if people were rational (or at least pretended to be when they ran for office).


What anti-religious propaganda?
What specific socialist lunacy?

Anyway, the problem with American politics is that there are very few candidates in the bag who have any degree of strength on both economic and social platforms. The fact that you tend towards older candidates disillusions the most useful people before they're likely to run for office, the fact that you essentially allow people to buy their way into office through electioneering causes some pretty obvious problems, and that's all on top of the disasterous impact of the electoral college and plurality, individual-candidate elections that grossly discriminate against urban voters.

I certainly wouldn't say that there's no religious antagonism, but you need to understand that you live in a country where Christians can easily oppress minorities if they so choose, and the increasing tendency to mix religion and politics combined with a trend of far greater electability for Christian politicians will definitely scare people who live in disagreement with any significant part of the Christian population. Much of the trend of attacking religion in America is actually retaliatory.

e946 wrote:Up until now, I hadn't noticed much if the imposing stuff in my own family, but after talking with many of them this weekend, I was wrong. One of my uncles went on a 10 minute rant about "those damn atheists", and [shame] my own mother says she feels like christianity is under an attack that will ultimately force christians back to the days of the catacombs[/shame].

Does it count as doublethink if you openly support separation of chruch and state but cite "this is a christian country" as a reason why God should be mentioned in the pledge?


In answer to your last question: Phrases like "this is a Christian country" count as endorsing the idea of a state religion. Even in Australia, where they have a "soft" separation between Church and State, this would breach their constitution. America's constitution is actually even more stringent than Australia's in that sense.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:13 pm UTC

I agree with the sentiment that many religions (mainly in the USA, those many Christian branches who stress 'Witnessing') are completely and fundamentally incompatible with a democratic state. However, the strength of a democracy as a whole is as long as those people are a minority, the democracy can survive. There are lots of vocal non-Christians as well as more moderate Christians who have purposely ignored/removed/overrided the non-democratic parts of their religion.

I am not anti-Christian really but I think we need to stop talking around this as a society. The belief that your religion is factually correct and that anybody else's religion (or lack of religion) is inherently false is going to lead you down a path of theocracy, not democracy.

True religious tolerance only comes when the religions themselves accept each other on EQUAL terms. Saying "you're wrong and will burn in hell for eternity but I'll look the other way and not ban you from my country" is not tolerance anymore than saying "I'm not racist, I just don't like black people" is.

I have quoted Bishop Spong here before but basically I agree with his fundamental conflict with Christianity. A religion that says "we are the chosen people" or "join us or burn in hell for eternity" or anything similar should simply not be valid in today's society. The religion itself needs to change and there's no getting around that with Basically Decent, 'can't we all just get along' side speak. Personally, it's why I switched to being a Reconstructionist Jew rather than a Reform/Conservative one.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:23 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Saying "you're wrong and will burn in hell for eternity but I'll look the other way and not ban you from my country" is not tolerance


Technically speaking, that's exactly what tolerance is: not accepting, liking, or valuing something, but merely putting up with it.

Thus why there is, in some liberal circles, a certain contempt for "tolerance" messages. They're seen as condescending and patronizing.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:30 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
mosc wrote:Saying "you're wrong and will burn in hell for eternity but I'll look the other way and not ban you from my country" is not tolerance


Technically speaking, that's exactly what tolerance is: not accepting, liking, or valuing something, but merely putting up with it.

Thus why there is, in some liberal circles, a certain contempt for "tolerance" messages. They're seen as condescending and patronizing.


I know that's all i expect from anyone. In fact, i think that expecting any more than tolerance is just as much a danger to democracy as a refusal to tolerate.

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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:31 pm UTC

no, that's my point. It's not tolerance. You are saying that the idea is tolerance because they say "I tolerate you in my country" and in that sense it is, yes, but their RELIGION is not tolerant. The people who hold that tolerant view are effectively ignoring/removing/overriding that part of their religion.
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Re: Where is this "Right wing religion imposing bullshit"?

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:36 pm UTC

mosc wrote:no, that's my point. It's not tolerance. You are saying that the idea is tolerance because they say "I tolerate you in my country" and in that sense it is, yes, but their RELIGION is not tolerant. The people who hold that tolerant view are effectively ignoring/removing/overriding that part of their religion.


Only if their religion says "Those people are going to burn in hell forever *AND* you shouldn't put up with them". If it just says "they're going to burn in hell forever", then it's up to the worshipper what to do about them when they're alive. Choosing to tolerate them is a valid choice in that eventuality.
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