Distributing Condoms in School

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:23 am UTC

aetherson wrote:No. The intention was only a double negative. I believe that there should be a bowl of condoms in the counselor's office. There should also be one in the bathrooms and the nurse's office and the coach's office and anywhere else there's a "trusted" adviser...Hell if it didn't put holes in the things, i'd say staple them to every wall...

Oh gods, this reminds me of an underground newspaper called the Spiced Olive, which ran at my school. On the last issue of my junior year, they all had condoms stapled to them through the middle, and then the next year they didn't give out the condoms and the front page boasted that "It's better without condoms!"

Condoms in schools, again, I don't see how this is a bad idea at all. Free versus not free is, to me, an interesting debate. But condoms should be there. Worst comes to worse, they're just pieces of rubber.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby audoue » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:01 am UTC

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:22 am UTC

Color removed cause it hurt my eyes. Sorry.

audoue wrote:I think they should give out free condoms, both at the school nurse and trough info stands, kids need to be concerned about how important it is to wear a condom to pevent both unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmited diseases, Hell I even think that there should be info stands about birth control pill and that you could get those from the school nurse (obviously not just like that at the stand)

Believe me when I say that from my school (I cannot say about other schools) there is more than enough concern about pregnancies. My best friend almost broke up with his girlfriend because she wouldn't go on the pill or do anything on her side, and he and I both had a rule: each partner does something. And I know that's a prevalent attitude, that the scariest thought in the guy's locker room was that your girlfriend gets pregnant... with your kid. It could have just been my school, but I doubt guys in other schools aren't worried about it.

And as for the freeness of the condoms, if they have to go to the school nurse or info stands, why not turn the stands into a vending machine and ask for a fee from the nurse?

And as for the pill being taken from the school nurse... the pill is already administered by phone call with a nurse for people in the Kaiser plan. Believe me, I know, my GF had an easy as hell time getting the pill. She got the pill before having a doctor there! But that being said, it's very important that the pill (or anything else, for that matter) go straight on the patient history, something not kept on file with the school nurse. (Unlike condoms, pretty much everything a woman does for birth control is fiddling with internal mechanisms, and deliberately affect the way the body reacts. Pretty much the only exception that comes to mind is the diaphragm, one of the shoddiest and most unreliable forms of birth control ever).

Belive me, so many kids don't go and buy condoms just because they are too shy and then they have unprotected sex and consequences can occur, It's not that they don't care it is that they don't know,

To me, this isn't something that's solved by handing out free condoms. It's something where the impact on society is much lessened by free condoms. But imagine this:

The local store is broken into every night for a week, and all the cash is stolen. The next week, the shop keeper simply takes the cash out of the store and leaves it on a paper bag on the front stoop. Has the crime stopped? Yes. do people notice the crime at large? No. But is the problem still there? yes.

I'm not saying teenage sex is a problem, I'm saying the fact that teenagers are being irresponsible about sex is a problem. Handing out condoms hides most of this, but doesn't fix any of it. But if there was a way to instill responsibility in teenagers via some kind of pill there'd be no use for parents would there... a man can dream though, can't he?


And as for the ''Quickie'' theory, it dosen't really make sense because putting on a condom dosen't take that much time. And there are two options:
1)You are aware how important it is and you just always wear it.
2)Youre dumb and never wear one.
no one just sometimes wears a condom...

As for the quickie theory, I feel bad for most girls if they only have sex for 1-3 minute bursts. Honestly speaking that wouldn't be worth taking off my pants let alone a condom. But a very trusted doctor spoke to me regarding this and lead me to believe that a PROPER, FULL EDUCATION on SEX, not just "Dear god you could get PREGNANT! you could get AIDS and DIE! your PENIS COULD FALL OFF!", but proper "Keep in mind in relationships it's often viewed as a big step, so don't rush things." "It hurts sometimes for one or more partners." and the most important, "It's not a race."

And as for number 2, some people are stupid. Giving free condoms to stupid people won't change the fact that they're stupid :P
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Malice » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:46 am UTC

superglucose wrote:I'm not saying teenage sex is a problem, I'm saying the fact that teenagers are being irresponsible about sex is a problem. Handing out condoms hides most of this, but doesn't fix any of it. But if there was a way to instill responsibility in teenagers via some kind of pill there'd be no use for parents would there... a man can dream though, can't he?


And... why is teenagers having sex a problem? Is it because that's just intrinsically wrong, or is it because they can't avoid/handle the potential negative consequences? If the latter, the condom certainly does help.

And as for number 2, some people are stupid. Giving free condoms to stupid people won't change the fact that they're stupid :P


No, but it will keep them from making more stupid people, right?
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:16 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:And as for the freeness of the condoms, if they have to go to the school nurse or info stands, why not turn the stands into a vending machine and ask for a fee from the nurse?


Because asking your parents for condom money on the way to school is just so awkward?

Yes, *some* kids have jobs in high school, but not all, or even most (if I remember correctly) do. So if you charge money, it's quite possible you're putting the condoms beyond the means of the kids involved, and defeating the purpose of the entire program.

aetherson wrote:There should also be one in the bathrooms


No! Don't ever put them somewhere unsupervised. Either they'll all be stolen, or some wise-ass will put holes in all of them.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

I've never met a teenager that couldn't muster a couple bucks to buy a few condoms. The point isn't about providing something that would otherwise be economically unavailable, its about bringing to light that sex SHOULD be done responsibly, and presumably the person handing them out is available for discussion or help.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:07 pm UTC

Malice wrote:And... why is teenagers having sex a problem? Is it because that's just intrinsically wrong, or is it because they can't avoid/handle the potential negative consequences? If the latter, the condom certainly does help.


Playing Devil's Advocate via the role of a Concerned Parent.

"Because my little precious innocent angel isn't possibly prepared for the full emotional impact of sex."

Or, being more dickish about it..

"Because my little angel isn't possibly prepared for the full emotional impact of sex. I know I wasn't. I really shouldn't have given it up in the backseat of that car during my sophomore year. So rather than talking to my child about it, letting them know as delicately yet honestly as I can how I feel about it and how I think they should put it off until at least college because they've got more important things to worry about (like that C- in Algebra), I'd rather the schools just tell kids to not. Because I'd hate to be uncomfortable during a frank discussion on the facts of life with my kid. Besides, they've got internet, I'm sure they know all about it anyway"


Moving on from me screwing around...

I wouldn't say that it's intrinsically wrong... but I would say the level of sex education that parents give to their children is intrinsically wrong. I've probably mentioned all this elsewhere, but I'll do it again. My dad's way of mentioning it was telling my brother and I that he'd buy us condoms whenever we needed them. We were, if my memory's correct.. 11 and 9 at the time. My mother's way was, at roughly age 16, kinda offhandedly asking if I knew about sex and stuff and using condoms, and when I replied "Uh.. yeah." she looked relieved and wandered off. So I wouldn't say that I got the most stellar form of sexual education and sexual responsibility lessons from my parents. Granted, in both cases it wasn't a "DON'T DO IT UNTIL YOU GET MARRIED OR YOU'LL DIIIEEEEE" thing, but it also wasn't that great.

As for the inability to handle the consequences... How many teenagers do you know that drive without seatbelts in a state where it's not required by law? Or how many who drive without them when it is required by law? How many speed in excess of 25mph over the limit? How many do so in wet or icy driving conditions? How many drive absentmindedly, fiddling with the radio or cell phones or whatever... hell, how many listen to iPods while driving, thus completely removing their hearing from the driving equation? Teenagers are idiots.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:22 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I've never met a teenager that couldn't muster a couple bucks to buy a few condoms.


Hi. How's it going. Now we've met. Granted, I'm not that teenager anymore, but I wouldn't have *eaten* in most of high school if I hadn't been able to scam a couple bucks to eat lunch. If I'd had condom expenses *and* food expenses, I'm really not sure how that would've played out.

And if our goal is to get teenagers to wear condoms, forcing them to choose between condoms and other things they have to spend their (possibly extremely limited) resources on is not a smart way to accomplish that goal.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby oxoiron » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:28 pm UTC

It's a good thing you didn't have condom expenses...

EDIT: But, seriously. Your parents couldn't provide adequate food? That's rough.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:44 pm UTC

@Belial: Then free condoms made a world of sense for your situation, but to be fair, I don't think the majority of teens involved in this debate are falling under your circumstance. So, rough bag man, but you obviously came out ok. To further my point though, cheapo-condoms can't cost more then a phone call. I can't imagine a circumstance where buying a condom would prevent you from eating. If it would, if your budget was that tight, then your an even stronger argument for free condoms. But that said, I still feel the point is to remove the taboo and stigma from sex.

@Talon: The attitude that sex is something sacred that must only be yielded at the most perfect of moments to the most perfect of peoples is, i feel, a bit outmoded. Obviously to each their own, but anecdotally, I lost my virginity at 16 to a gal I cared a good deal about but later couldn't stand, probably wasn't 'ready' at the time, but meh, you get over it and learn. Life's not about cornering off swaths of safety and comfort, you challenge yourself and you grow. You move on. Kids shouldn't be put into circumstances they are uncomfortable with (especially sexually) but we also shouldn't think that no kid is going to be ready before college, or, that having sex before your ready is going to psychologically ruin a body forever.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Garm » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:49 pm UTC

SecondTalon raises a very good point. Why are we having this discussion about condoms and teenagers? The main contention is that teens aren't ready emotionally for sex. Why is it then that we allow them to drive? Something like 40,000 people die every year from automobile related accidents. According to wikipedia's quoting of the CDC over 7,000 kids were backed over between 2001 and 2003. We let kids back over other kids starting at 16. When can they start having sex with other kids? I think it's our cultural hang up in regard to sex vs. our veneration of the car. I also think it's stupid. Why is driving a half ton piece of metal a more acceptable risk than having safe, consensual sex?

As for the emotional readiness issue... Sex ed is supposed to help with that. If you know the risks involved then the idea is you'll be able to make more informed, more rational decisions. We send kids to drivers ed and they can (in some states) get their drivers permit earlier than 16, so by sending them to class we are saying they're more emotionally prepared to drive than someone who didn't go to that class. Shouldn't we equate the two? Can't sex ed just be drivers ed for your genitals?
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:56 pm UTC

@Belial: Then free condoms made a world of sense for your situation, but to be fair, I don't think the majority of teens involved in this debate are falling under your circumstance.


Of not having wads of disposable income? I'd argue that that's more common than you think. Not to mention that teenagers tend to be somewhat shitty at *managing* that income.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:22 pm UTC

Wads of disposable income is hardly required to buy condoms. But yes, I realize not having wads of disposable income is a fairly common occurrence for people in general.

Garm wrote:Can't sex ed just be drivers ed for your genitals?


Haha, win. I would argue that you shouldn't need a permit to go have sex, but to be honest, I'm not completely adverse the idea of giving free condoms/health care before the age of 18/other contraceptives/*porn* for people who have passed a 'Sex Health' Course...
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:47 pm UTC

Wads of disposable income is hardly required to buy condoms.


If you want something with even a decent failure rating, any kind of sensitivity, and you're having sex with any kind of regularity, it gets expensive pretty quickly.

If we're giving kids decent condoms at a discount, we're probably already subsidizing them, and therefore admitting that getting kids to wear condoms is worth spending public money on, so why not make them free.

Of course, Izawwlgood, at this point we're just arguing as to which *reason* is more valid for the course of action we both agree on...
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:05 pm UTC

Right you are good sir.

Sidenote: Perhaps it'd be fun to breakdown how much a year of sex costs in condoms, lubes, edible panties, etc... If a condom costs 50cents, and you go at it for half an hour, and rock out roughly 1800 thrusts (rough estimate of 1 thrust a second... seems ABOUT right), a single thrust of sex costs you ~.03cents.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:13 pm UTC

Where the hell do you live that condoms are 50 cents?

Maybe I haven't been paying attention to my expenses (and this is a very real possibility), but if I'm not mistaken, I'm lucky if I can get a 12 pack for less than 12 or 13 bucks.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:22 pm UTC

36 packs are about 20-25 bucks depending on where you go or if you have a membership card at that place... Walgreens is like 22, Walmart is like 20. So condoms are about 50cents a pop. Ish. Maybe closer to 60.

Also, I'm a trojan man, which I prefer for sensation and not feeling cheap, like durex. So I'm not sure what the price on the others are. I bet those that come in the jam peel off containers are more expensive.

EDIT: Durex are cheaper!
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:25 pm UTC

Ahh, 36 packs. I suppose I should start buying bulk. Stupid short-term buying strategies.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:08 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
superglucose wrote:I'm not saying teenage sex is a problem, I'm saying the fact that teenagers are being irresponsible about sex is a problem. Handing out condoms hides most of this, but doesn't fix any of it. But if there was a way to instill responsibility in teenagers via some kind of pill there'd be no use for parents would there... a man can dream though, can't he?


And... why is teenagers having sex a problem? Is it because that's just intrinsically wrong, or is it because they can't avoid/handle the potential negative consequences? If the latter, the condom certainly does help.

Ever bother reading posts before arguing against them?

superglucose wrote:I'm not saying teenage sex is a problem.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Malice » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:13 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:As for the inability to handle the consequences... How many teenagers do you know that drive without seatbelts in a state where it's not required by law? Or how many who drive without them when it is required by law? How many speed in excess of 25mph over the limit? How many do so in wet or icy driving conditions? How many drive absentmindedly, fiddling with the radio or cell phones or whatever... hell, how many listen to iPods while driving, thus completely removing their hearing from the driving equation? Teenagers are idiots.


Right. Teenagers are idiots. However, they're idiots with the overriding need to drive a car.

I agree that teenagers are less equipped to handle the consequences of their actions. I'm just saying the most effective way of keeping them safe is to help them avoid the consequences, not help them avoid the actions. If you see a kid driving unsafely, you say, "Hey, kid, wear a seatbelt," not, "Don't drive a car until you're married." It wouldn't work, anyway, because kids really want to drive cars.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:17 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:As for the inability to handle the consequences... How many teenagers do you know that drive without seatbelts in a state where it's not required by law? Or how many who drive without them when it is required by law? How many speed in excess of 25mph over the limit? How many do so in wet or icy driving conditions? How many drive absentmindedly, fiddling with the radio or cell phones or whatever... hell, how many listen to iPods while driving, thus completely removing their hearing from the driving equation? Teenagers are idiots.


Right. mostTeenagers are idiots. However, they're idiots with the overriding need to drive a car.

I agree that teenagers are less equipped to handle the consequences of their actions. I'm just saying the most effective way of keeping them safe is to help them avoid the consequences, not help them avoid the actions. If you see a kid driving unsafely, you say, "Hey, kid, wear a seatbelt," not, "Don't drive a car until you're married." It wouldn't work, anyway, because kids really want to drive cars.


Fixed for you. Not all teenagers are unequipped to make decisions, and not all teenagers are idiots. That's why prohibiting teenage sex is, in my opinion, bad, wrong, evil, unjust, unfair, oppressive... etc. etc.

But about the kid driving unsafely, if the kid is driving unsafely the cop doesn't say "Hey, wear a seatbelt!" he says, "Here's a ticket for $50 and if you do it again I'm taking away your liscense."
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:20 pm UTC

That's why he used the general "you" and not "the police". Because there is no police analog for sex, just the general populace. And the populace can't issue tickets.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Narsil » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:06 pm UTC

Meh, I'll jump into the fight.

I do think that some things need to change in American society (just speaking for the States here, have no idea what it's like anywhere else) and I think that making condoms more available is a good way to make that step.

See, people are too immature. We still have this ancient attitude that sex is somehow dirty and sinful and wrong. NO. We need to get over this as a culture. Sex is a good thing. It's fun. It's not wrong. IT CAN BE SAFE IF YOU ARE NOT A MORON. America still does not get this and instead chooses to follow the fourth grade attitude of giggling every time someone says "sex". This is why kids are too embarrassed to go buy condoms. My question is: Why the hell would you be embarrassed? I stroll right the fuck into a pharmacy and say "You know what? I'll take a pack of Durex lubed thanks, and now I'm off to have sex with my girlfriend while you're still working. HA!"

And a three-pack is what? 5 bucks? That's nothing. Kids have a lot of money these days. I don't know where they get it, but they can spare a fiver. The real concern is that if we gave them out, there's no vouching for the quality of the condoms.

Check out this consumer report.

There are definitely differences between brands. Planned parenthood condoms, for example, rank at numbers 14, 22, and 23. Durex is among the best brands you can buy. If I'm going to place so much trust in a product, it better be the best damn condom money can buy.

What we need are programs in school that teach these teenagers about sex. I don't mean show them the parts and say that if they ever come within 10 100 feet of each other IMMEDIATE BABIEZ AND AIDS LOL. I mean teach them about sex, why pulling out is a bad plan, the exact mechanics of sex, and how to prevent disease and be smart. And parents, they have to be willing to let their kids get this education and know that it won't corrupt them, it'll help them make better choices in life.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby DougP » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:08 am UTC

I think the financial concern here is being VERY underplayed by some people. I suspect that most of us, who are reading XKCD, finding it amusing, and posting on the associated forums did not necessarily grow up in the worst of conditions (I didn't), but funds are a real concern in this debate for a LOT of people. Not everyone grows up in suburbia, and not everyone has spare cash to spend. There are a lot of teenagers, especially those going to inner city schools, who have very little, if any, disposable income. Condoms really aren't that cheap, all things considered. If you buy them in smaller packages they are cheaper, but more per condom, and if you buy in bulk they are cheaper per condom, but then a teenager needs to go slap down 20-25 dollars at once.

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby flyingdics » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:57 pm UTC

Not everyone grows up in suburbia, and not everyone has spare cash to spend. There are a lot of teenagers, especially those going to inner city schools, who have very little, if any, disposable income.


This is a great point, especially since teen pregnancy is more common and more of a problem in the inner city. It's easy to look down from privilege and tell people what they should be doing. Why don't the hungry just use their disposable income on food? or the homeless use theirs on housing?

Lots of people wouldn't have car insurance if they weren't legally bound to, and lots of teenagers won't get condoms unless they're free and confidential. Bemoan, but it's true.

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:52 pm UTC

I'm not trying to discredit the economic issue here, but frankly, 50 cents (OR LESS!) a condom is not cramping anyones style. If your poorest of the poor and surviving from food stamp hand out to soup kitchen evening, then sure. But that degree of poverty is less common then the degree of low-income housing families who can't buy tv's for every room.

But thats not the point, the point is, because some teens are stingy and bad at managing money, condoms should be accessible.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:But thats not the point, the point is, because some teens are stingy and bad at managing money, condoms should be accessible.


On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences. If they don't learn personal responsibility as a teenager, when are they going to learn it? Sometimes you HAVE to make sacrifices. When the teenager is unwilling to pay that pittance to be safe, in my opinion they don't deserve to have sex. And if two people in a partnership consider the risk of a baby worth less than a dollar, then by god they should discover the consequences. This is a function solved by better education, and hidden (but not solved) by free condoms.

And as for the bad at managing money... honestly this is something else that needs to be taught early on (not senior year) in high school: proper money management. The idea that debt=bad and thrifty=good, that there are things one NEEDS to spend money on (condoms for sex, rent for shelter, vegetables and grains for eating) and things one WANTS to spend money on (soda for drinking, gas for car, elecricity for heating). I went through an AP Econ class that dealt almost exclusively with macroeconomics, supply and demand, things the average american DOESNT need to know. Thank god my mother is an accountant and was able to teach me how to live off minimum wage comfortably (which IS possible, by the way).
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Freakish » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:36 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences.


So you saying that children and std's are an adequate punishment for those who won't buy their own condoms.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:47 pm UTC

Freakish wrote:
superglucose wrote:On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences.


So you saying that children and std's are an adequate punishment for those who won't buy their own condoms.


If a teenager reaches out to touch a hot stove, and someone says, "Hey, by the way, that stove is hot." And the teenager reaches out and touches it anyways, who's fault is it? STD's are a VERY appropriate punishment for someone not heeding the warnings and proceeding anyways, despite the ability to do otherwise.

The only problem with throwing children in there is this: it also punishes the child, which throws me into quite a conundrum... protect the possible child or punish the teenager. I have some difficulty with this as I'm not entirely convinced that accidently having a child is always a bad thing. Suffice to say that on child rearing, I'm tentatively neutral.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:56 pm UTC

STI's are one thing, like, haha, oops, better take some antibiotics and not have sex for two weeks. Damn, now thats embarrassing, gotta call so and so and tell them to get checked out...
STD's... Meeeeh, I don't think thats really fair. Additionally, the cost of treating someone with any STD is WAY more then the cost of getting free condoms to people.

Maybe we should engineer a bacterium that makes your genitalia turn bright blue until you get it treated. It'd be a good lesson for those who are irresponsible with sex!
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Dream » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:27 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Maybe we should engineer a bacterium that makes your genitalia turn bright blue until you get it treated. It'd be a good lesson for those who are irresponsible with sex!


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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:17 am UTC

On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences.


Children are not consequences. They are people. You do not royally fuck over a person, forever, just to take passive revenge on a completely separate person for refusing to toe your moral line or for failing to live up to your standards. Your disregard for human life is staggering and dismaying.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Azrael » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:01 am UTC

Belial wrote:
On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences.


Children are not consequences. They are people. You do not royally fuck over a person, forever, just to take passive revenge on a completely separate person for refusing to toe your moral line or for failing to live up to your standards. Your disregard for human life is staggering and dismaying.


That. Nevermind that this *exact* point and counterpoint has appeared at least twice earlier in the thread.

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:47 am UTC

Azrael wrote:
Belial wrote:
On this point, I say any teenager who falls on the former should have to deal with the consequences.


Children are not consequences. They are people. You do not royally fuck over a person, forever, just to take passive revenge on a completely separate person for refusing to toe your moral line or for failing to live up to your standards. Your disregard for human life is staggering and dismaying.


That. Nevermind that this *exact* point and counterpoint has appeared at least twice earlier in the thread.


Not to mention by me as well.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:57 am UTC

And then you expressed that maybe that's not so bad. Which is the part that I find dismaying. If you'd just failed to think of it at all, that would just be shortsighted.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:40 am UTC

Belial wrote:And then you expressed that maybe that's not so bad. Which is the part that I find dismaying. If you'd just failed to think of it at all, that would just be shortsighted.


What I said is that I'm fine with STD's being a consequence, but the reason I flip flop on the other issue is because while most of those children end up seriously messed up, not all of them do. It's... really hard to explain my feelings on this because it's so damn subjective, and it really doesn't help to have someone coming out and decrying me as horrible for it. Maybe consider that what you see as black and white is a gray area for some who are still trying to figure out how black and how white.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Belial » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:51 am UTC

So what you're saying is that you fail to see how using a child as a way to punish someone's youthful indiscretions is necessarily a bad thing? And you're justifying it by way of "some of them turn out okay"? Some people survive smallpox, too, that doesn't mean we should go about infecting people on a whim.

And never mind the effect on the person whose life was ruined because they fucked up once in high school when you're *supposed* to still be learning by making mistakes.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:01 am UTC

Belial wrote:So what you're saying is that you fail to see how using a child as a way to punish someone's youthful indiscretions is necessarily a bad thing? And you're justifying it by way of "some of them turn out okay"? Some people survive smallpox, too, that doesn't mean we should go about infecting people on a whim.

And never mind the effect on the person whose life was ruined because they fucked up once in high school when you're *supposed* to still be learning by making mistakes.

Learning by mistakes is done in multiple ways. And don't say that I fail to see using a child as punishment is a bad thing when I've SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE! Again you're trying to black-white an issue.
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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby Sunsnail » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:05 am UTC

I'm completely for distributing condoms in school. I wish they did here. One thought came to mind while reading this thread. Could a school be liable if a condom fails? Why not?

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Re: Distributing Condoms in School

Postby superglucose » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:16 am UTC

Sunsnail wrote:I'm completely for distributing condoms in school. I wish they did here. One thought came to mind while reading this thread. Could a school be liable if a condom fails? Why not?
]

Actually... that's... a valid point. Legally what stops a school from being liable. Just as you can't say that giving people condoms makes them more likely to have sex, you can't say that people who didn't have condoms would be less likely to have sense, at least not legally. Aaaand... it would be an expectation of protection...

I would say that there'd have to be a big warning sign. And judges would have to be forewarned to throw those cases out bar none.

I expect there'd be one or two cases that make it to trial where a judge will rule that the school is not held responsible for a failed condom any more than a condom manufactuerer is, and that anyone who's condom failed would be entitled to a refund, and seeing as the condoms were free...
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