Illegal Immigration.

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Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:30 am UTC

I searched for a thread on this, but came up empty. If there's a thread on this and the mods feel it's worth reviving, thanks for moving it.

I read this report, and will be hosting a debate on a radio show I host locally regarding this.

I personally see a problem like any the U.S. has had in the past. It seems that during the Vietnam war, education, immigration, healthcare and fear tactics (read Communism vs. Terrorism) were all used to keep people distracted from other political crimes being commited at the time. Am I crazy for thinking that these tools are being employed yet again?

*edited to include more immigration issues. Thanks Rachel!*

My point is yes, there are problems brought on by illegal immigrants. But it seems that people seem to just want to get rid of them with the same fervor used against other cultures throughout history.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby rachel » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:40 am UTC

That's probably the case all the time. We're kept so focused on the terrible things going on in the world that we're oblivious to the terrible things being done right at home. People are taught from the time they're little to trust the government (often times "or else") and so, believing they can, they become complacent and often overlook the atrocities being committed by their own government. Between this sort of complacency and the blind patriotism displayed by ignorant people, it's no surprise that very few people are informed at all (much less well-informed) of how corrupt the government really is.


PS- This is more general than illegal immigration.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:01 am UTC

So, what can be done to change this really? Are we to just continue with the way things are just because it's "the way"? Are there any opinons on this for or against?
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby rachel » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:13 am UTC

I think that the people who realize this is going on are definitely against it, but in comparison to the huge population of the country, those people don't stand a chance. Government will always, at some level, be corrupt. I think that sadly it is just a fact that people have come to live with. That and knowing that even if they realize that it's terrible and wrong, there's not much that one layman can do to change the actions of what is more often than not the most powerful opposition they could butt heads with. Even as a combined force, the most we can hope to do is educate others of the corruption and hope that enough people are willing to stand in protest against it.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby TheStranger » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:37 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:I searched for a thread on this, but came up empty. If there's a thread on this and the mods feel it's worth reviving, thanks for moving it.

I read this report, and will be hosting a debate on a radio show I host locally regarding this.


Sounds like a good deal to me.

My point is yes, there are problems brought on by illegal immigrants. But it seems that people seem to just want to get rid of them with the same fervor used against other cultures throughout history.


'Illegal Immigrants' are not a culture, just as 'car thieves' are not a culture. Having entered the country illegally does not entitle someone to the benefits of citizenship / residency. Those are reserved for those who do come here legally.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby superglucose » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:01 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:So, what can be done to change this really? Are we to just continue with the way things are just because it's "the way"? Are there any opinons on this for or against?

Me personally, I'm working currently to gather up a force of about 30, 40 million people to march on washington and demand change. I'm personally sick of the way this government is being run, and it can fix itself, but I think it's time for americans to stand up and scream at the top of their lungs.

Revolutionary ideals ASIDE...

On the topic of immigration: immigration control sickens me to my very core. I'm a hard-fast libertarian (actually, anarchist, but libertarians are close!), and because of that I find the idea that you have to do something to be admitted into this country not only utter bullshit, but a complete slap to the face of how/why this country was founded. What ever happened to giving us the tired and hungry, eh? Used to be a man (or woman) could be proud to know his/her country would accept anyone trying to make a better life.

Now we turn them away because they're poor? From a country we don't like? To quote XKCD itself: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mazzilliu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:21 am UTC

i wonder why people dont seem to give much thought to the actual process of kicking out illegal immigrants past "lets get ridda them damn foreingers". first you have to identify them, and prove they are not citizens. this, most likely, opens the door to blatant racism and harassment of latinos. We will probably end up deporting actual citizens in the process, afterall giving 11 million unwilling people a free bus ride is going to be a messy process. god help anyone who can't produce their papers. and for the real latino citizens, they have to deal with the reality of being treated as a suspect and having to produce proof of innocence.

the wall idea is ridiculous. there's a ton of other ways to get into the country; the canadian border, sea(remember only ~11 miles out is international waters), finding breaks in the wall. the united states cant even put a dent in the drug trade across borders, illegal immigration is going to take the same route and its going to get a lot more people killed.

the idea is unconstitutional in the way you will have to enforce it, and it is not going to work even if you had full ability to ignore the constitution.

a twisted part of me kind of hopes it goes through as it is just to see the dystopian world it would create....
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Malice » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:13 am UTC

There are two ways to stop illegal immigration.
A: make it legal.
B: make it expensive.

The previous poster compared it to the drug problem, and the solutions are the same. If you eliminate the demand for immigrant workers, you eliminate the vast majority of illegal immigration. This can be done simply by actually enforcing the laws against hiring illegals.

At the same time, we should be opening our borders to those who wish to enter.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby creativename » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:32 am UTC

Really, controlling immigration wouldn't normally be important at all, if it weren't due to the welfare state. Illegal immigrants get welfare, Social Security, free education for their kids, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. That's the only problem I really have with it: it costs taxpayers' money. Of course, spending billions to stop illegal immigration doesn't help in that regard, so a better solution is to simply stop encouraging it: eliminate the government handouts.

Of course, that idea doesn't go over well. Both Republicans and Democrats seem to prefer the wall idea.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby superglucose » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:03 am UTC

creativename wrote:Really, controlling immigration wouldn't normally be important at all, if it weren't due to the welfare state. Illegal immigrants get welfare, Social Security, free education for their kids, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. That's the only problem I really have with it: it costs taxpayers' money. Of course, spending billions to stop illegal immigration doesn't help in that regard, so a better solution is to simply stop encouraging it: eliminate the government handouts.

Of course, that idea doesn't go over well. Both Republicans and Democrats seem to prefer the wall idea.


Of course they do. Major corporations enjoy their cheap-ass janitors as a way of cutting down on costs. And a wall won't stop that! And someone has to build the wall, which means money is once again flowing out of the pockets of the government right into the beautiful corporations.

I'm really not anti-establishment or anti-corporation, but I will point out what appears to be obvious corruption. This wall? I can't think of a better explenation for such a stupid idea.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Malice » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:05 am UTC

creativename wrote:Really, controlling immigration wouldn't normally be important at all, if it weren't due to the welfare state. Illegal immigrants get welfare, Social Security, free education for their kids, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. That's the only problem I really have with it: it costs taxpayers' money. Of course, spending billions to stop illegal immigration doesn't help in that regard, so a better solution is to simply stop encouraging it: eliminate the government handouts.

Of course, that idea doesn't go over well. Both Republicans and Democrats seem to prefer the wall idea.


...

You don't like it that non-citizens are cared for by taxpayers. I understand that. But you similarly don't like it that taxpayers are cared for by taxpayers?

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:43 pm UTC

i'm all for immigration, and i dont care if they come here, but certain rules need to be followed.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:34 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Illegal immigrants get welfare, Social Security, free education for their kids, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. That's the only problem I really have with it: it costs taxpayers' money.


You're going under the assumption that all immigrants pay no taxes. This is incorrect. Sure, there's a large portion who works "under the table". So does it mean that it's ok for American citizens to do this, but not immigrants?

Malice wrote:There are two ways to stop illegal immigration.
A: make it legal.
B: make it expensive.



A: is good, however there's no easy way to do this.
B: More than it already is? Besies, this has only encouraged people to come illegaly, so no. This won't help the situation at all.

As for the comparison to the drug traffic problem. What makes these drugs illegal in the first place? Some laws have no basis for being in place, MOST need to be revised.
TheStranger wrote:Sounds like a good deal to me.

What exactly makes this a good thing? Have you considered the repercussions this bill will have?
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mazzilliu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:43 pm UTC

Malice wrote:There are two ways to stop illegal immigration.
A: make it legal.
B: make it expensive.

The previous poster compared it to the drug problem, and the solutions are the same. If you eliminate the demand for immigrant workers, you eliminate the vast majority of illegal immigration. This can be done simply by actually enforcing the laws against hiring illegals.

At the same time, we should be opening our borders to those who wish to enter.

i compared it to the drug problem because there are no solutions except simply allowing it and getting some tax benefit from it. both drug importation and illegal immigration entail the same basic activity: getting a package from one country to another, covertly. drugs have been illegal for decades now, and they are still widespread, and we spend billions intercepting shipments and it doesn't even make a dent in the total volume. Still, there is the argument "if only we put a little effort into it", but how many billions do we have to spend in effort to fight these people? I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but we have a lot of square miles to 'secure', and it would just be easier to let these people in and tax their income like every other citizen. A human being does not have to be a liability for the country they reside in, but they will be one if we aren't willing to accommodate them(legally, socially) or make the investment in them to be productive.

right now you cant legally get in unless you are rich or educated, i know there are legal methods but those options are simply not open to the vast majority of people. Anyone who says these millions of people are 'just too lazy' need to look into the process that obtaining citizenship really entails.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

Is it just me or does this territorialist mentality seem rather pointless? Yes, thousands of people come into the country at any given day, and there are good ones and bad ones. The claim that they're hurting the economy just doesn't make any sense to me. If the economy is being hurt, there's no fucking way that it's causing more damage than say, the war, the lack of good education, and on and on. The point is, the borders are IMAGINARY LINES DRAWN ON A MAP! Am I crazy for thinking that people shouldn't be discriminated against simply because they were born on a different part of the hemisphere and not take into account what kind of peron they are? Why did this mentality change from 10 years ago? Don't say 9/11 either.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:25 pm UTC

ekzrated wrote:Is it just me or does this territorialist mentality seem rather pointless? Yes, thousands of people come into the country at any given day, and there are good ones and bad ones. The claim that they're hurting the economy just doesn't make any sense to me. If the economy is being hurt, there's no fucking way that it's causing more damage than say, the war, the lack of good education, and on and on. The point is, the borders are IMAGINARY LINES DRAWN ON A MAP! Am I crazy for thinking that people shouldn't be discriminated against simply because they were born on a different part of the hemisphere and not take into account what kind of peron they are? Why did this mentality change from 10 years ago? Don't say 9/11 either.


Borders mark where one set of laws stop and another begins.

And you're right. People are people are people. And they shouldn't be discriminated against. But wherever you are on the planet, you fall under the jurisdiction of a certain set of laws, and if you are acting against the set of laws, you really don't have much right to complain when you're caught.

The only illegal immigration problem the US has is the result of a failure to enforce the laws already in place.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:29 pm UTC

Ok, that's fine, but shouldn't those laws be revisited? The excuse to enforce them is "Security". I don't know about you, but if a foreign country managed to attack us again, I guarantee the rest of the nation would get off it's collective ass and retaliate. Why are we so afraid of being attacked? Do we fear losing?

Loss of human life is tragic. But fear of it should not be an excuse to abuse other human life. These laws are unethical and need to be revised, among many many others. I'm calling on awareness to make that change. Or should we just sit by as we let history repeat itself yet again...
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

No, Security is an excuse to make new laws that do nothing but spend unnecessary amounts of money on an unneeded wall that can be easily defeated in a few moments and all the whole thing does is make a couple of construction companies much richer. The Executive branch enforcing the law in place is called doing your damn job.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:07 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:'Illegal Immigrants' are not a culture, just as 'car thieves' are not a culture. Having entered the country illegally does not entitle someone to the benefits of citizenship / residency. Those are reserved for those who do come here legally.

Man this makes me sick. They're here, they're in your culture. There's a culture of drug dealers in this country. There's a culture of people who drive to fast in this country. There's a culture of people who are here illegally. In fact, it's a huge culture with millions of people. Whither you like it or not it exists so wake up and smell the stench of the world you're living in.

Having entered the country illegally entitles the person to be treated humanely and respectfully. It entitles them to due process. It entitles them quite a lot of things that you seem to completely disregard with this comment. I am sick of people de-humanizing illegal immigrants as purely criminals. Guess what, we're all criminals. We all break the law in one small way or another. We are still PEOPLE, we are just guilty of a crime. An illegal immigrant is guilty of immigrating illegally. They are, however, still human beings with more than one defining quality. Everything they do is not a crime. Everything they contribute is not on the negative side of the equation. Everything in regards to them doesn't have to be about their legal status. The next time you look at a 2 year old who's parents smuggled them across the border so they would grow up with FOOD in their stomach and you call that child a no good criminal you should be smacked in the face IMHO.

Gah, people piss me off. Their fucking birthright of being born on one side of an arbitrary line compared to somebody else being born on the other side of an arbitrary line is complete and utter bigotry no better than racism, sexism, or similar and is pure hate mongering. Call it patriotism if you want, it's still nationalistic elitism. It wasn't so many years ago that rampant nationalism lead to another kind of dehumanization and it makes me sick to see those attitudes are not only common today but they're considered socially acceptable. "It is the same tyrannical principle".

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We are a country of immigrants. Of criminals. Of rejects. Of unclean. Of unworthy. We succeed because those are simply false labels. All of them. Underneath we are all just people and once we are treated like people we can succeed. Being here already doesn't make you superior, it makes you lucky. It's time to share that luck with the rest of the world and not horde it like some possessive child.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:23 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:No, Security is an excuse to make new laws that do nothing but spend unnecessary amounts of money on an unneeded wall that can be easily defeated in a few moments and all the whole thing does is make a couple of construction companies much richer. The Executive branch enforcing the law in place is called doing your damn job.

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I agree. It should do it's damn job. And so should the citizens. It is our job to question laws. It is our job to make sure the elected officials are performing this job well. It is also our job to find an equitable solution to issues. And it's our job to be humane, wether you like it or not.

These laws are not humane. I know it's hard for people to relate to others. You apparently can't relate to people who come into this country illegaly. I imagine you look at them and think "well, they broke the law and should be punished". There are those who classify an illegal immigrant as a criminal. As far as I know, being in the country illegaly is breaking civil law, and is not a crime. So, you're screaming for the book to be thrown at someone who's commited the equivalent of speeding.

Mosc illustrated my point fairly well. We all break laws for one reason or another. I'm not disputing the fact that they entered the country illegaly. I'm calling into question the reasoning and the ethicallity of having such laws.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

I agree fully ekzrated. They committed a crime but the only punishment that these people seem to accept for it is deportation which is infeasible, immoral, inhumane, selfish, and EVIL.

The Nazis did that to the Jews at first too. They rounded them all up and made them register with the state. They were refused any rights as citizens and then told they had to leave the country. It is eerily similar.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby 455SD » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

Here's a thought (with not much thinking behind it, I'll be honest): Could immigration laws exist and be enforced not because government want them, but because of the population?

The people I know who complain about immigration do so loudly and incessently. Their opinions are reflected in the newspapers and television media.

However, the people I know who are supportive immigration or just don't really care never really air their views. Even when some obnoxious twat from the above category makes some horrificly racist remark. The mass media very rarely say anything in support of immigrants. Why is that?

Immigration arguably works in favour of government; you're basically talking about free movement of labour, just as governments love free movement of goods.

So is it just a case of whoever shouts the loudest gets the laws written in their favour?

That said, having done a lot of work with refugees here in the past, my lungs are tired from screaming but it seems nobody from government listens. So I'm probably wrong. Or mute.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:06 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I agree fully ekzrated. They committed a crime but the only punishment that these people seem to accept for it is deportation which is infeasible, immoral, inhumane, selfish, and EVIL.


As far as my sources have indicated, it is not a crime, but a civil offence. A crime is robbing someone at gunpoint. A civil offence is speeding. And my source is a lawyer, so I imagine he's not pulling my leg.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby creativename » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:22 pm UTC

Malice wrote:...

You don't like it that non-citizens are cared for by taxpayers. I understand that. But you similarly don't like it that taxpayers are cared for by taxpayers?

The answer to the free rider problem is not to drive the bus off a cliff.

It's less like driving the bus off the cliff and more like stopping and letting everyone find their own transportation. Government hand-outs are generally counter-productive.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:25 pm UTC

455SD wrote:Here's a thought (with not much thinking behind it, I'll be honest): Could immigration laws exist and be enforced not because government want them, but because of the population?

The people I know who complain about immigration do so loudly and incessently. Their opinions are reflected in the newspapers and television media.


Not likely. People have been screaming for health coverage for quite some time now. The state I live in makes quite a lot of money off illegal immigrants simply by allowing them to have a driver's permit. They have to get their license renewed constantly, and those fees add up. Not that the area I live in is known for it's honest political practices. In short no. Nobody really worried about immigration until media brought it up again. You can virtually track the starting point of people's "awareness". Just look at issues in America before 9-11 and those that came afterwards.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:27 pm UTC

Now, i'll agree that attempts to stop immigration have become a little anal, but i also believe that something has to be there. We simply don't need the entire population of Mexico coming over here, we can't support them. Not at once, anyway. So we set up a process through which people have to go through to get citizenship. An excessive process, that could probably use some reform because it may indeed be racist. But a process has to be there. We can't do the full open door "give is your tired...etc" thing anymore.

And when the time comes that someone who enters the country illegally is identified, what do we do about it? Do we say "you violated our border, but because we didn't catch you right away it's okay"? Seems logical to me that if someone enters the country illegally you...y'know...remove them from the country.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby microwaved » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:32 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I agree fully ekzrated. They committed a crime but the only punishment that these people seem to accept for it is deportation which is infeasible, immoral, inhumane, selfish, and EVIL.

The Nazis did that to the Jews at first too. They rounded them all up and made them register with the state. They were refused any rights as citizens and then told they had to leave the country. It is eerily similar.



Ah yes, and reductio ad hitlerum rears it's ugly head once more on the internet.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:35 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:We simply don't need the entire population of Mexico coming over here, we can't support them.


In what way are we supporting them? A vast majority find jobs immediately, purchase cars/homes/goods/services, as well as pay taxes.

Gunfingers wrote:We can't do the full open door "give is your tired...etc" thing anymore.
Why not? Isn't a country's strength measured in part by the productivity of it's population? Again, show me how productivity has decreased as a result of illegal immigration.

Gunfingers wrote:And when the time comes that someone who enters the country illegally is identified, what do we do about it? Do we say "you violated our border, but because we didn't catch you right away it's okay"? Seems logical to me that if someone enters the country illegally you...y'know...remove them from the country.


If they are commiting a true crime, and are detrimental to society, then by all means, find a way to either get them to reform or get rid of them. But if like most humans, they are being just as productive as the average person, what is the point of deportation? I'm questioning the validity of this law, period. Why deport someone who's contributing to the strenght of a country simply because they weren't lucky enough to be born here? I have yet to hear a valid reason for these laws to be enforced so.

microwaved wrote:Ah yes, and reductio ad hitlerum rears it's ugly head once more on the internet.


Want a better example? America. Today.

Please avoid double posting by editing additional comments into your previous posts.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Economica » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:25 am UTC

Lots of good discussion here.

First, regarding immigration generally. I seem to remember a certain quotation on a certain statue in New York Harbor. We would do well to continue in its tradition. I'm all over relaxing the immigration restraints in this country.

Second, regarding illegal immigration. Before we start rounding up 25 million people and deporting them, let's look at the system which created the problem. Why do people enter America illegally? Presumably, they would like to go the legal route, but cannot. The "lines are too long", so to speak; the process is expensive and complicated, expecially if you do not have a relative here already. So simplification of the legal route and relaxation of the quotas would be a giant first step in the right direction.

Third, regarding the illegals already here. We have to make it profitable for them to come out and become good citizens. Mass deportation will not work; it may take some, but the majority will simply fade into the background and wait it out. A better plan would include a pathway to citizenship, with modest requirements and easy entry. And yes, there must be a special pathway for illegals. They don't get "special" treatment, as some claim; they get different treatment because their situation is different.

Finally, why we can't just dissolve the border. America's welfare system works on the basis that care/social security/whatever is provided to everyone, but the costs are disporportionately placed on the upper class. So mass immigrants are generally a net drain on resources; there was a recent CBO study attesting to that fact which I cannot find right now. So on the balance, unskilled immigrants must be matched by skilled immigrants if the net impact of immigration is to be neutral or positive. I would love to eliminate the border, but the existance of a welfare system requires that we manage immigration more closely than that.

General philosophy on immigration: a person who immigrates to the United States is agreeing to come into the American legal framework as opposed to that of their old country. Anyone who wishes to do this should be allowed to; no one should be denied a chance at American citizenship merely because they were born on the wrong patch of dirt. The immigration system should be broadly inclusive; race-based or nation-based quotas fundamentally contradict the idea that all are welcome. Immigrants are a boon to America and should be welcomed.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby microwaved » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:08 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:
microwaved wrote:Ah yes, and reductio ad hitlerum rears it's ugly head once more on the internet.


Want a better example? America. Today.



HA! yea I'll just avoid this thread for my own well being.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby TheStranger » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:17 am UTC

mosc wrote:Man this makes me sick. They're here, they're in your culture. There's a culture of drug dealers in this country. There's a culture of people who drive to fast in this country. There's a culture of people who are here illegally. In fact, it's a huge culture with millions of people. Whither you like it or not it exists so wake up and smell the stench of the world you're living in.


Defining random groups of people as a culture really does not amount to much, nor does it excuse illegal behavior.


Having entered the country illegally entitles the person to be treated humanely and respectfully. It entitles them to due process. It entitles them quite a lot of things that you seem to completely disregard with this comment.


I fail to see where in my post I implied that they were not to be treated 'humanely and respectfully'. All I pointed out was that by definition they have broken the law, and should be punished in accordance with that law.

I am sick of people de-humanizing illegal immigrants as purely criminals. Guess what, we're all criminals. We all break the law in one small way or another. We are still PEOPLE, we are just guilty of a crime.


Sure, I've driven over the speed limit (I've even gone through a red light before). If a cop pulls me over while speeding he'll give me a ticket, and I'll have to pay that ticket. Why should someone who breaks immigration laws get a pass?

An illegal immigrant is guilty of immigrating illegally. They are, however, still human beings with more than one defining quality. Everything they do is not a crime.


no, walking down the street is not a crime... but much of what they do can be seen as a crime. If they obtain identification under false pretense then anything they do using that documentation can be seen as a crime (renting an apartment, getting a job, voting)

Everything they contribute is not on the negative side of the equation. Everything in regards to them doesn't have to be about their legal status. The next time you look at a 2 year old who's parents smuggled them across the border so they would grow up with FOOD in their stomach and you call that child a no good criminal you should be smacked in the face IMHO.


the child, no... the parents yes (though I'm not sure where the 'no good' part came from).

What do I tell the child whose parents are working hard to enter the country legally?

Gah, people piss me off. Their fucking birthright of being born on one side of an arbitrary line compared to somebody else being born on the other side of an arbitrary line is complete and utter bigotry no better than racism, sexism, or similar and is pure hate mongering.


how... nice for you

Call it patriotism if you want, it's still nationalistic elitism. It wasn't so many years ago that rampant nationalism lead to another kind of dehumanization and it makes me sick to see those attitudes are not only common today but they're considered socially acceptable. "It is the same tyrannical principle".


an Identity is not 'tyranny', and pride in ones nation is not 'nationalistic elitism'.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


that was and is still very true

We are a country of immigrants. Of criminals. Of rejects. Of unclean. Of unworthy. We succeed because those are simply false labels. All of them. Underneath we are all just people and once we are treated like people we can succeed. Being here already doesn't make you superior, it makes you lucky. It's time to share that luck with the rest of the world and not horde it like some possessive child.


Yes we are a country of immigrants. My grandfather on my fathers side came over from Germany when he was very young (with his parents and brothers). My grandmother on my mothers side actually came through Ellis Island. They were all legal though.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:59 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:Defining random groups of people as a culture really does not amount to much, nor does it excuse illegal behavior.


I personally do not defend illegal behavior. I call the ethicallity of this law into question.

TheStranger wrote:I fail to see where in my post I implied that they were not to be treated 'humanely and respectfully'. All I pointed out was that by definition they have broken the law, and should be punished in accordance with that law.


Calling them "criminals" is definitely not respectful because THEY HAVEN'T COMMITED A CRIME. They broke a civil law.

TheStranger wrote:Sure, I've driven over the speed limit (I've even gone through a red light before). If a cop pulls me over while speeding he'll give me a ticket, and I'll have to pay that ticket. Why should someone who breaks immigration laws get a pass?


These laws are intended to encourage safety for others. Again, I'm calling into question the reasoning for making laws against illegal immigrants so harsh, and making it nearly impossible to immigrate legally.

TheStranger wrote:no, walking down the street is not a crime... but much of what they do can be seen as a crime. If they obtain identification under false pretense then anything they do using that documentation can be seen as a crime (renting an apartment, getting a job, voting)


Sure. However, this still does not adress the real problem. The impossibility of doing said things legally.

TheStranger wrote:the child, no... the parents yes (though I'm not sure where the 'no good' part came from).

What do I tell the child whose parents are working hard to enter the country legally?


The same thing you tell the people who can't afford to pay to enter the country legally: "Sorry, you were born a few feet below our imaginary line, therefore you are considered less deserving of the same rights other humans have for that reason alone".

TheStranger wrote:an Identity is not 'tyranny', and pride in ones nation is not 'nationalistic elitism'.


You're right. It's using said identity to exploit, demean, and look down upon others is.

TheStranger wrote:Yes we are a country of immigrants. My grandfather on my fathers side came over from Germany when he was very young (with his parents and brothers). My grandmother on my mothers side actually came through Ellis Island. They were all legal though.


And I guarantee that they didn't have to go through the amount of bullshit people today have to just to get legalized.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby TheStranger » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:00 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:I personally do not defend illegal behavior. I call the ethicallity of this law into question.


I have no problem with sovereign nations establishing their own rules for citizenship as well as residency.

Calling them "criminals" is definitely not respectful because THEY HAVEN'T COMMITED A CRIME. They broke a civil law.


As I have heard it, illegal immigration is a misdemeanor on the first offense (moving to a felony with later offenses).

besides that is a matter for semantics... entering this country illegally is against the law, with clearly consequences.

These laws are intended to encourage safety for others. Again, I'm calling into question the reasoning for making laws against illegal immigrants so harsh, and making it nearly impossible to immigrate legally.


How harsh are they? You enter illegally, you are sent back.

I'd also like to see numbers backing up your 'nearly impossible to immigrate legally' claim. All the sources I've been able to locate seem to indicate that the number of people allowed to immigrate has increased.

Sure. However, this still does not address the real problem. The impossibility of doing said things legally.


Again, I doubt the 'impossibility of doing things legally'. Difficult perhapses, and certainly time consuming... but not impossible.



The same thing you tell the people who can't afford to pay to enter the country legally: "Sorry, you were born a few feet below our imaginary line, therefore you are considered less deserving of the same rights other humans have for that reason alone".


It's not 'less deserving of the same rights other humans have' its 'not receving the same privileges that are given to the citizens of another country'.

You're right. It's using said identity to exploit, demean, and look down upon others is.


the only exploitation being done by those who violate US law to employ immigrants illegally (as a source of cheep labor). I'm not sure how 'demean' and 'look down upon' enter into the picture. Such things are the domain of 'jackasses' not 'Patriots'

And I guarantee that they didn't have to go through the amount of bullshit people today have to just to get legalized.


I'm not to keen on how you seem to make light of the trials and tribulations that my grandparents underwent in coming to this country. They struggled to get to this country, to enter it, and to make a lives for themselves (laying the groundwork for my parents and myself).
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby shifuimam » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:06 am UTC

I remember reading a piece about this by my brother (he's got a blog that has quite a following). His girlfriend is Mexican, and he wrote about how he's seen the hardships that illegal immigrants have had to go through, just to get into the United States to make things better for their families back in Mexico.

On the flip side, I've become friends with a small group of girls who have emigrated to the United States from South Korea. They are all here for the opportunities at a better life, a better economy, better jobs, better education, etc. They have gone through years of applications and work, miles of red tape, metric asstons of bueracracy...all to come to the US legally.

The thing is, the amnesty attitude toward illegal immigration completely shits on the millions of people who aren't fortunate enough to be separated from the US by nothing more than a land border. As someone from any of the countries in Asia or Africa, you can't just hide in the floorboards of a minivan to get into the United States. You have precious little choice but to do it legally - which is time consuming and expensive.

The team I manage is composed completely of Indians, both offshore and onsite. My outsourcing project manager is trying to get his green card right now, becauase he's reached the limit on visa renewals. If he can't get his application approved and get a green card, he'll be sent back to India, which will make his job situation much more difficult.

I'm aware that many undocumented people living in this country don't have it easy, but I don't at all think they deserve special treatment just because they're lucky enough to have grown up on the same continent as the United States. Making legal immigration easier, as well as cracking down on illegal immigration, seems to be a better long-term solution than granting blanket amnesty to the illegals who are already hiding here.

Just my $0.075.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Bergwerk » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:16 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:Guess what, we're all criminals. We all break the law in one small way or another. We are still PEOPLE, we are just guilty of a crime. ... They are, however, still human beings with more than one defining quality.
Anyone with a heart can sympathize with an immigrant looking for a better life and trying to provide for their family. However, stating that undocumented immigration and (especially) associated activities like identity forging are ILLEGAL is not 'disrespectful' or de-humanizing. As for immigrants being defined solely by their naturalization status, this cannot be blamed entirely upon society. Many illegal immigrants are insulated and therefore stereotyped by the public because of a lack of language skills and cultural differences. It doesn't help that it is impossible to become a rooted, responsible citizen when you must avoid all forms of legal identification.

ekzrated wrote:In what way are we supporting them? A vast majority find jobs immediately, purchase cars/homes/goods/services, as well as pay taxes.

It's true that nearly all find jobs immediately, as that is usually the reason for immigrating. Even so, the sales tax and occasional income tax they pay does not entitle them to the same benefits as a normal citizen who pays FULL taxes. One can't possibly be 'all straight' with the IRS without possessing a legal identity and being fully documented. The common practice of sending a large portion of every paycheck to another country is also detrimental to the economy. Since they shouldn't receive the aforementioned benefits by riding real taxpayers, and it would be morally wrong to deny healthcare and education, the only answer is to not allow them in without being legalized. A wall will not help. Steps need to be taken to eliminate the reasons for illegal immigration. This should include penalizing employers who hire them, and alternative workers' permits. It is hard to blame someone for taking advantage of the broken employment system, but illegal workers hurt those currently in low paying jobs and make themselves open to being taken advantage of by greedy businesses.

On the whole, I think immigration is essential for the US. However, just because is has many benefits does not mean that those who skirt the law and burden taxpayers should be tolerated.

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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Vaniver » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:41 am UTC

Open immigration (even if just for people with degrees) would be a healthy move. Restricting welfare benefits to citizens (or reducing them altogether) would also probably be healthy.

The real difference between the problem now and the problem previously is that some people are illegal aliens, not illegal immigrants (technically, illegal immigrants are illegal aliens as well; it seems convenient to refer to just illegally present non-citizens who do not reside in the US permanently as aliens). Itinerant workers interact with society very differently than immigrants. If someone is here because they think America is a better place to live than their birth country, few put that past them; if someone is here to earn money, the majority of which is sent home,* more people see it negatively.

Education is probably the trickiest part of the whole equation; education is primarily paid for by property taxes, and the sort of people that are illegal aliens/immigrants now are probably not the sort of people who would be buying homes / would be paying around the median/mean property tax. It's only reasonable for me to subsidize someone else's education if that will indirectly benefit me, either through them being a more educated voter or as a general investment in economic/scientific growth. For immigrants on the path to citizenship (be it legitimately or through amnesty), this seems like a questionable but still somewhat worthwhile investment. For someone who will probably not be in the country in 6 months, it seems like a waste of money.


Summary: The rights granted to someone for being a human being are far lower than the rights granted to someone for being an American citizen. There's little reason to prevent people from residing or working in America, but there's also little reason to give residents all the benefits of citizens. The path to citizenship should be easier than it is now, but it should still require several years of residency.


*Objections along these lines are rarely sensical. What are Hondurans going to do with dollars, eat them?
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:39 pm UTC

Mosc's 5 point plan for fixing the immigration issue (in order of implementation)

1) Institute the an act protecting all immigrants from deportation who have been here for more than 3 months regardless of how they got here.
2) Add border security on the southern border. It creates government jobs.
3) Create a much more robust and overt transient worker clause for using foreign labor.
4) Offer registration to all illegal immigrants which would guarantee no deportation and add them to the list on the path towards citizenship effective the date they sign up. No accelerated process, just standard immigration guaranteed.
5) 1 year after the registration goes into effect, start requiring papers for all jobs.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:06 pm UTC

mosc wrote:5) 1 year after the registration goes into effect, start requiring papers for all jobs.


There are already laws to this effect. They're just not being enforced.

Not that I don't pretty much agree with what you're saying... if you're already here, might as well make you legal blah blah blah... my point is just that there's already laws to that effect that aren't being enforced. Plenty of people knowingly hire illegal workers because they know they won't get caught because, apparently, no one cares.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

Bergwerk wrote:It's true that nearly all find jobs immediately, as that is usually the reason for immigrating. Even so, the sales tax and occasional income tax they pay does not entitle them to the same benefits as a normal citizen who pays FULL taxes. One can't possibly be 'all straight' with the IRS without possessing a legal identity and being fully documented. The common practice of sending a large portion of every paycheck to another country is also detrimental to the economy. Since they shouldn't receive the aforementioned benefits by riding real taxpayers, and it would be morally wrong to deny healthcare and education, the only answer is to not allow them in without being legalized.


I'm only going to respond to this statement due to a lack of time today. First of all, if you're worried about burdens to the economy, why not worry about real burdens, such as the rising defense budget? There are more than enough economic strains that can actually be solved if only people paid more attention. Instead, we're focusing on something that while it creates certain problems, it still stimulates the economy one way or another. And while the same argument could be made about the war, remember that I've stated that I'm questioning the ethical reasons behind the current immigration laws.
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Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

I tend to agree with the whole "they shouldnt get the benefits of tax funded programs if they dont pay taxes" mentality, however after thinking about it:

- sales tax: youre forced to pay it when you buy stuff, regardless of citizenship.
- income tax: i would assume most illegal immigrants do not make that good of a wage. that combined with children or any other tax writeoffs would probably give them a hefty return on their taxes anyway. probably most of what they would be paying if not all.
- property tax: considering said low wage, i doubt they are well-off enough to own property, so they would rent, in which the rent goes to the landlord, which the landlord uses to pay property taxes.

am i correct/pseudocorrect/wrong in these assumptions?
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