Illegal Immigration.

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:56 am UTC

I have neither the time nor the temperament to address most of your points, however, I have enough restraint and sarcasm to manage one...

Of course they bring gangs. MS 13 started in El Salvador. Now its all over North and South America.


Yeah, it's true, because adding a gang to a city just means that all the gangs overlap and make extra crime! They don't stake out territories or anything. It's not like, if MS 13 wasn't there, there would just be another gang vieing for its territory to fill the gap or anything crazy like that. That would imply that the world isn't completely cut-and-dry, find-and-shoot-the-bad-guys-and-everything-will-be-good-forever. And that's just crazy talk. If we just throw out (or, even better, kill!) the brown people who don't talk like us, everything will be great.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Adalwolf
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:05 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Adalwolf » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:06 am UTC

Belial wrote:I have neither the time nor the temperament to address most of your points, however, I have enough restraint and sarcasm to manage one...

Of course they bring gangs. MS 13 started in El Salvador. Now its all over North and South America.


Yeah, it's true, because adding a gang to a city just means that all the gangs overlap and make extra crime! They don't stake out territories or anything. It's not like, if MS 13 wasn't there, there would just be another gang vieing for its territory to fill the gap or anything crazy like that. That would imply that the world isn't completely cut-and-dry, find-and-shoot-the-bad-guys-and-everything-will-be-good-forever. And that's just crazy talk. If we just throw out (or, even better, kill!) the brown people who don't talk like us, everything will be great.


Oh, the Hispanics gangs are also highly racist towards black people. Did any of you know that?

It is so bad in LA that the Crips and the Bloods have joined together to defend themselves from the Hispanic Gangs.

Sure, there would be other gangs, and crime would still go on. However, MS 13 are a group of monsters. What they do is horrifying, and deserves harsh retribution. MS 13 is the worst gang I've ever heard of.
Live with passion. Die with passion.

++$_
Mo' Money
Posts: 2370
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:06 am UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ++$_ » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:07 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:1. It doesn't matter where their from. If they are from Mexico, Latin America, or South America, ship them to Mexico city. Let them make their own way home.
This makes no sense at all. Why not ship them all to Buenos Aires? Or to Ottawa? Or to Paris? We simply don't have the right to dump people into Mexico, any more than Mexico has a right to dump people into the US.
3. They need to at least learn English, as that is the default language of the US. Immigrants can use whatever language they want at home, but they need to learn English to be able to function in society outside of their home, and their immigrant community (ex: little china, little italy, etc)
While it is true that to be able to function in society, people need to learn English, that doesn't translate to a moral imperative to learn English. If they don't want to be able to communicate, that's entirely their problem. You are not required to communicate back, either.
4. They can fly their own flag, but NOT ABOVE the American flag. That is showing disrespect and intended to anger people.
I think you'll find that it's not intended to anger anyone. If a legal immigrant (citizen or not) did the same thing, would you be equally angry? What if an entirely native American did? Probably not.
MS 13 started in El Salvador.
False. MS 13 started in Los Angeles.

User avatar
Ari
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:09 pm UTC
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Ari » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:17 am UTC

segmentation fault wrote:if you make minimum wage and file for taxes, you'd probably be getting most if not all of it back anyway.


Right, but if you take in a small amount of tax that you're not getting now for however many thousand illegal immigrants you've got in your country, that's actually a fair chunk of change, and should help pay for social services.


Adalwolf wrote:People aren't denied medical care in emergency rooms because they can't pay.

They maybe denied follow up surgeries, chemo, etc, but people from a car wreck are not turned away because they can't pay.

People do, as you say, have to pay some, if they can.

People not paying the full cost for medical is hurting hospitals. Illegals make up a large percentage of people unable to pay.

They are draining the resources of this nation (though they are not the only thing draining it). They bring drugs, gangs, and violence into the country (MS 13). They do not adapt to our culture. They fly Mexican flags above US flags. They have a movement advocating that the Southwest be turned into a new country (Aztlan), or joined with Mexico.

Yes, many are great people. Legal immigration should be reformed to make it easier to get in. Or, on the other hand, perhaps immigration as a whole should be curbed.

All I know is that I'm fed up with hearing about illegals. They should be fined and deported. Ship them out in trains to Mexico city. Build a border fence, with snipers, razor wire, and fuck it, mine fields for all I care. Keep uninvited people OUT. They have no place in society- except to be abused by corporations and to make it hard for citizens to work (which means they shouldn't be here, duh)


Maybe if employers actually had some reason to pay them minimum wage, they could pay for hospital care. The problem is a dualistic one: Because they've come to America illegally, they get mistreated by employers, which makes them a drain on your social services. If you want the cheap labour, you have to pay the cost in social services. I'm glad to see you don't support this practice, but I fail to see how your policy of deportation would address the fact that illegal immigrants would still come to your country, nor how it would address the cost of finding them and deporting them, which is by no means insignificant.

It also seems rather hilarious to focus on keeping illegal immigrants out of the USA when your border is so large that it would be practically impossible to secure completely, when your foreign policy has driven your neighbours into poverty causing the immigration flood in the first place, and when the existing plans for border security are beginning to upset locals. It makes more sense to debate the fix to the root cause of the problem before talking about what can be done to alleviate the symptoms right now, as there is no point to alleviating them if you're not holding off for a long-term fix that's in place.

If you support holding onto the existing policies that are causing illegal immigration, I really have little sympathy with your desire to deport those illegal immigrants who are struggling people have been economically displaced from their home countries.

Adalwolf wrote:1. It doesn't matter where their from. If they are from Mexico, Latin America, or South America, ship them to Mexico city. Let them make their own way home.


See, this is more of the kind of attitude that lead to this situation in the first place. It matters if you displace people to Mexico who don't want to be there. If they can't find their way home they will drain Mexico's resources instead, which will cause more displacement into the USA from people who have to deal with it.

Deportation is not the process of offloading someone who is a problem to your country wherever you take a fancy to putting them. It is a process of returning someone to a place they have a legal right to be, and if you're going to subvert that paradigm you ought to have some pretty strong arguments to back it up- it's almost worthy of its own thread, in fact.

Adalwolf wrote:2. Hmm, 6 years or so of watching the news, reading articles online, and online forums gives me enough to talk about. If people actually read the articles they stated uninsured people are fucking up our health care, and another one stated that illegals make up a large portion of the uninsured. I think you can add those up.


No, you don't get to assume we can "add those up". If you don't want to do the research, say so, and concede that you don't have the evidence to make the claim. Your opponents cannot fairly apply logic to an argument that assumes either data or logic that is not made explicit. If you have any care for the truth of the matter, then citations are pretty worthwhile, even for less controversial points.

Adalwolf wrote:3. They need to at least learn English, as that is the default language of the US. Immigrants can use whatever language they want at home, but they need to learn English to be able to function in society outside of their home, and their immigrant community (ex: little china, little italy, etc)
4. They can fly their own flag, but NOT ABOVE the American flag. That is showing disrespect and intended to anger people.


3: I think that's relatively uncontroversial that practically speaking they have a huge incentive to speak English, but the consequences of actually forcing people to speak English are pretty extreme, so America wisely doesn't have an official language.

4: You're restating your opinion, not justifying it. How do you know it is disrespectful of America? Why is it unacceptable to disrespect America? Shouldn't freedom of speech apply here?

Adalwolf wrote:5. Last time people tried to form a new country out of US territory 600,000 American died. I'd rather not have that happen again.
6. Snipers and mine fields were exaggerations. But razor wire and walls are fine. If people are going to come illegally, we can do whatever we want to try and keep them out. They have no right to be here. Have you ever heard of trespassing?


I agree with you that it's a stupid and potentially disasterous idea, but I don't see how that idea is not protected by freedom of speech, and I don't see any proof that this idea is even widespread, let alone fully supported by all the people you seem to have such an issue with. If I judged you by the actions of the worst people in America, you'd seem pretty infuriating to me, too.

I agree that trespassing is bad, but I'd like to remind you of the last time someone tried to stop it on this scale. Do you remember the Berlin Wall? Now, I'm not claiming that your border legislation, or anything more extreme would necessarily warrant that comparison, but it is an important example to avoid. It also wanted to solve the inverse of this problem, so maybe the situation is a little different. But it still taught us that people should be very, very careful about trying to solve socio-economical problems with force- even if that force is just a border patrol.


edit: As Belial points out above, your point about illegal immigrants being disproportionately imprisoned really doesn't carry much weight. If illegals weren't filling in that part of the economy, someone else would have to, and it's likely they'd also fill in those prison bunks, too.
"Hey %*&^er, offensive communication works fine so long as you do it respectfully." :D
"I am so quoting that out of context at a later date."

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:45 pm UTC

I'm going to take some time to answer you in as refrained a way as I can muster. Just make sure you read and understand everything I'm going to say, that's all I ask.
Adalwolf wrote:1. It doesn't matter where their from. If they are from Mexico, Latin America, or South America, ship them to Mexico city. Let them make their own way home.

First off, do you have any idea how much it would cost to find all the I.I.'s, round them up, deport them anywhere, let alone Mexico? Not to mention the P.R. nightmare it will bring since a lot of people have children who are US citizens. Are you suggesting we deport those children as well? But you know what? Your idea suddenly makes a lot of sense. But why stop there? Let's get rid of any undesireables we can! Let's get rid of those who're on welfare. They're a drain to the economy too! And the elderly, because they're old, plus we could use their retirement fund money. Nevermind how ridiculous a notion this is, you will likely still fail to see the idiocy of that ideology. Fail.
2. Hmm, 6 years or so of watching the news, reading articles online, and online forums gives me enough to talk about. If people actually read the articles they stated uninsured people are fucking up our health care, and another one stated that illegals make up a large portion of the uninsured. I think you can add those up.
Well, I know I've been watching the news too, and I know that for the last 3 years, right about the time people were about to make heads roll for the way the war is going, and after terror threat levels failed to keep sheeple distracted, suddenly immigration became a hot-point. As for the validity of news sources, I hope you realize that the news media is full of sensionalism. Media has overhyped the immigration issue, which is why there's people like you who believe the "facts" news sources report. Regardless of how many people show contradictory evidence. Fail.
3. They need to at least learn English, as that is the default language of the US. Immigrants can use whatever language they want at home, but they need to learn English to be able to function in society outside of their home, and their immigrant community (ex: little china, little italy, etc)
Again, you're going on false pretenses. The US does not have an official language. It just happens to be the language the majority speak. Neither you nor anyone else has the legal right to demand anyone to learn. Fail.
4. They can fly their own flag, but NOT ABOVE the American flag. That is showing disrespect and intended to anger people.
sorry to disappoint you yet again, but you can't tell me what I can or can't do. If I chose to fly a bostwanian flag, above an american flag, you can't force me to take it down, but I'd love to see you try. Fail.
5. Last time people tried to form a new country out of US territory 600,000 American died. I'd rather not have that happen again.
I'm actually kind of interested in seeing what it would take for another civil war to happen in the US. We are obviously divided on many fronts, and there are enough people who believe civil war is imminent. This still has nothing to do with the issue. The actions of few do not reflect the actions of the whole. Fail.
6. Snipers and mine fields were exaggerations. But razor wire and walls are fine. If people are going to come illegally, we can do whatever we want to try and keep them out. They have no right to be here. Have you ever heard of trespassing?
I really think you need to reevaluate why it is you want to keep I.I.'s out of the country. So far, you haven't been able to provide a single viable reason for anyone to support your ideology. You've cited nothing solid that proves your views. Fail.
@ekzrated:
Illegals may or may not contribute more than they take away from society.
So far, there's much more evidence that they do contribute than there is evidence that they don't. So are you stating opinion again? Fail.
Of course they bring gangs. MS 13 started in El Salvador. Now its all over North and South America. MS 13 members should be hunted down and executed with a bullet to the head. They feed people to dogs and kill pregnant women. (Saw that on tv a year or two ago)
Again, you're making non-points. The actions of individuals do not reflect on others. Or should I consider you someone capable of murder because someone of your ethnicity does? Fail.

The fact is they have no right to be here. They can be deported the second they are found out, if laws were actually enforced.
It is not up to you to determine who has a right to do or not do anything. The immigration laws are flawed, and I'm calling for a reform of these laws. Humans have a right to live, regardless of which country they reside in. And you still fail to acknowledge just how ridiculous the notion of deporting is, considering the costs vs. benefits. Fail.
Illegals also make up a large percentage of the prison population, further draining resources.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?p ... enters0b9c
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976004/posts (in this one county they are over 60% of the prison population)
(again, just a couple of links)
Stop posting websites that have a bias, you won't convince me with this. But here, let me show you this little site. It might surprise you: link
As you see... FAIL.

Have some info on MS 13, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms_13

On Aztlan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztlan
also there are some infuriating videos on youtube about it. When I saw those a few months ago I almost threw my computer out the window...I'll find them later if you want.
Again, that's a non-point, so I won't bother with it. I can point out videos about whites and their sense of supremacy. Fail.
So, what is your point again? That you fail to prove anything? That your stance looks more and more based on ethnic discrimination rather than valid points? Yea, Epic Fail.
Last edited by ekzrated on Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

AvalonXQ
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby AvalonXQ » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:49 pm UTC

ekzrated: An entire response full of nothing but impolite contempt and strawman arguments.
How did you put it? Oh, yeah. YOU "fail".

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:ekzrated: An entire response full of nothing but impolite contempt and strawman arguments.

Yes.
But this is just peachy?
Belial wrote:I have neither the time nor the temperament to address most of your points, however, I have enough restraint and sarcasm to manage one...

Of course they bring gangs. MS 13 started in El Salvador. Now its all over North and South America.


Yeah, it's true, because adding a gang to a city just means that all the gangs overlap and make extra crime! They don't stake out territories or anything. It's not like, if MS 13 wasn't there, there would just be another gang vieing for its territory to fill the gap or anything crazy like that. That would imply that the world isn't completely cut-and-dry, find-and-shoot-the-bad-guys-and-everything-will-be-good-forever. And that's just crazy talk. If we just throw out (or, even better, kill!) the brown people who don't talk like us, everything will be great.
*Belial, I completely see your points. No offense intended...
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:35 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:ekzrated: An entire response full of nothing but impolite contempt and strawman arguments.
How did you put it? Oh, yeah. YOU "fail".


It's so cute. He thinks he's a moderator.

Quit it.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

You have to be a mod to point out a flawed argument?

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

No, just to tell others how to post. Especially if you don't have anything at all to contribute.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Ari
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:09 pm UTC
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Ari » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:15 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:ekzrated: An entire response full of nothing but impolite contempt and strawman arguments.
How did you put it? Oh, yeah. YOU "fail".


Well, I don't exactly like the tone either, but I don't think they're all strawmen. He actually made a lot of the same points I did about how extreme some of Adalwolf's positions were, but you didn't object to my post. If they're all strawmen, shouldn't it be easy to refute them? After a quick look-through, I don't see anything I object to.
"Hey %*&^er, offensive communication works fine so long as you do it respectfully." :D
"I am so quoting that out of context at a later date."

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:You have to be a mod to point out a flawed argument?

I might not be exactly nice, but I don't see my argument as being flawed. However, I'm completely open to discussing it, if you're up for it. I welcome debate, which is why I started this thread. I haven't seen anything valid in any of the statements made by Adalwolf, which is why I refuted them. As for my tone towards him, I am not goint to apologize. His tone is offensive to me, so I return in kind.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

Oh don't get me wrong, Adalwolfe is full of shit, and while i remember the post in question as being more or less logically sound (remember, because there's no way i'm rereading all of it) i also remember it as being a largely angry personal attack.


Besides, it probably would have been better if i had said
Gunfingers wrote:You have to be a mod to point out what is perceived as a flawed argument?

since i would have said the same thing if it had come from a person i agree with. I wasn't calling your argument flawed, i was just saying i didn't see anything wrong with the guy correcting you.

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:49 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Oh don't get me wrong, Adalwolfe is full of shit, and while i remember the post in question as being more or less logically sound (remember, because there's no way i'm rereading all of it) i also remember it as being a largely angry personal attack.
Ok. For a minute there, I was kind of worried you agreed with Adalwolfe. But I don't think what I wrote was any kind of personal attack.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5401
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:16 pm UTC

You know I thought there was a good chunk of the recent Obama speech that related very well to Illegal Immigration even if it wasn't the original intent. Obama talked a lot about the underlying root cause of racial tension being that many Americans have become ingrained in the belief that when someone does well, it is at the expense of someone else. He of course was focusing on the concept of "blacks doing better" not inherently implying "whites doing worse" but I think Illegal Immigration shares the same paradigm. People see Immigrants get ahead or at least improving their situation and have some underlying belief that it has been at the cost of somebody else. Most of the time they're thinking it has been at their expense directly.

The idea, not that I hold to it, is that some Mexican who comes across here and gets a better paying job and/or maybe gets some social services is doing so at the EXPENSE of somebody else. Specifically a US citizen. Obama's point, which is just as relevant here as it is about race, is that helping someone to succeed is inherently in your best interest. Both financially and ethically. Americans have become entrenched in this protective stance as of late that has reached the point where we are unlikely to want to help anyone get ahead as it is viewed as against our best interests. Not just in issues of race and immigration, but in many other areas as well.

This attitude is profoundly un-American to me. The defining belief for our country to me is a rejection of birthright and that old European system which was more about success through keeping someone else down more than based on merit. When did the American dream stop being an uncompromising belief in 'opportunity for all'? Today it's 'asset protection and job security for me'. We seem to be fashioning our attitudes more after 17th century noblemen more afraid of losing their allotment to the surfs. Gone is the old model of the self-made frontiersman or farmer who's only request is to survive based on their own merits.

Citizenship is becoming more and more like a birthright and less and less like a statement of independence. It is tragic. To me, it is that AMERICAN dream, that AMERICAN spirit in those illegal immigrants that causes them to say "To hell with the law. I DEMAND my fair shot, my fair opportunity." and I find it compelling. If it were up to me, I'd welcome them with open arms and say "welcome home". Being American shouldn't just mean being born here. As Obama said, it's in our best interest to see others succeed. Success does not have to come at the expense of someone else. In fact, in most cases it benefits all.

EDIT: I think that's some of my best thoughts and some of my worst writing. Bah. I hate English. I'll try to clean it up...
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Citizenship is becoming more and more like a birthright and less and less like a statement of independence. It is tragic. To me, it is that AMERICAN dream, that AMERICAN spirit in those illegal immigrants that causes them to say "To hell with the law. I DEMAND my fair shot, my fair opportunity." and I find it compelling. If it were up to me, I'd welcome them with open arms and say "welcome home". Being American shouldn't just mean being born here. As Obama said, it's in our best interest to see others succeed. Success does not have to come at the expense of someone else. In fact, in most cases it benefits all.
It has become that, because in my opinion, the majority of US born citizens haven't really had to suffer as much as people born in 3rd-world countries under poverty-stricken conditions. They have no way to relate. The youth of America is focused more on finding the right accessory for their Ipod than with schoolwork, if you were to judge from TV's content. The average American adult is more worried about appearing to be financially stable than actually making economically sound desicions. It seems some are constantly trying to live up to the ideal Americans portrayed in movies and TV, and let's face it... When was the last time someone in a position of wealth and power gave a shit about the average American?
If anyone remembers, the US was headed into a recession back at the end of 2002 and beginning of 2003. Unemployment was a growing concern. Then we invaded Iraq, and things slowly but surely started to get better. Now, we're in a full-blown recession, the dollar's worth crap, and just when all this was about to be revealed, LOOK OUT! ILLEGALS ARE STEALING YOUR JOBS! I've stated many times I'm insane (and if I haven't before, then this is proof), I don't think this is coincidental. As with all economic recessions, those that pay the highest price are the poor. So it's easy to blame an I.I. because everyone is poorer. Nevermind thefact that Exxon/Mobil declared an even higher record in profits for 2007 with no signs of slowing, education is a joke thanks to "no child left behind", unemployment numbers have been doctored, the dollar has been devalued, and by the way, the war shows no signs of getting better or nearing it's end, because we're at war with TERROR.

And some people blame I.I.s for all this?

mosc wrote:EDIT: I think that's some of my best thoughts and some of my worst writing. Bah. I hate English. I'll try to clean it up...
You obviously don't read my stuff, your writing is infinitely better than mine.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:44 am UTC

ekzrated wrote: and let's face it... When was the last time someone in a position of wealth and power gave a shit about the average American?


Heh. And you call me bigoted.

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby The Reaper » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:15 am UTC

ekzrated wrote:And some people blame I.I.s for all this?

No. They blame I.I. as part of the many problems. The reasoning being, if you fix the problem, its one less problem to deal with, and you're on the road to recovery.

ekzrated wrote:
mosc wrote:EDIT: I think that's some of my best thoughts and some of my worst writing. Bah. I hate English. I'll try to clean it up...
You obviously don't read my stuff, your writing is infinitely better than mine.

It's ok, English hates everyone. It doesn't help that its a whore of a language that goes around mugging other languages for new vocabulary.

<3 English.

As far as the Obama speech, I was fishing on South Padre Island at the time, so I haven't watched it, yet. -scurries off to google-

Oh, and toadfish are nifty little buggers. nothing but mouth and teeth. I wish I had a saltwater tank so I could have kept it...

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5401
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:27 am UTC

can I also comment that it took me nearly 20 minutes to find the correct spelling of "paradigm"? I mean, I've always said something more closely resembled "paradime" or "paradyme" or something like that buy it's spelled paradigm?!?! Fucking English...
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Heh. And you call me bigoted.

I don't remember calling you bigoted... I can start, if you'd like! :D

But I still stand by that comment. And what I refer to as the "average American" falls within midddle and lower classes.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

Implications were made earlier in the thread that i (or anyone that might be against unrestricted immigration) was a racist.

Anywho, you stand by the comment that every member of population X behaves in manner Y? (Every rich person doesn't care about poor people)

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:25 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Implications were made earlier in the thread that i (or anyone that might be against unrestricted immigration) was a racist.

Anywho, you stand by the comment that every member of population X behaves in manner Y? (Every rich person doesn't care about poor people)

If I implied you were racist, I might have been under the impression you were. You've since then corrected my error. As for the statement I made, you're taking it out of context. If you read the whole post, you should be albe to see which people I'm refering to. At least that's what I was hoping for.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Dextrose
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:34 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Dextrose » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:16 pm UTC

http://www.break.com/index/mexican-atte ... rally.html

Hope I don't offend anybody by reviving this post, but I feel like mentioning that all the comments about "well white Europeans 'went through the proper channels' to become citizens in America" are complete and utter hogwash. That's assuming that America even had a right to be here to begin with. We fucking stole the land, end of story, what's so complicated about that? Allow me to construct an analogy:

- Europeans steal the land
- More Europeans come over and get permission from the original Europeans to live there
- Conclusion: Descendents of these Europeans have a right to live here because they arrived through the proper channels.

Let's change some words, shall we?

- Robber steals money
- Another robber comes over and gets permission to use Robber 1's money.
- Conclusion: The robbers' children have a right to the money because they acquired it through the proper channels.

Seems pretty goddamn stupid now, doesn't it.
Buda, sevmekten, güçlüğü keşfemelidi; severek, budayı olmuş.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Vaniver » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:57 pm UTC

Dextrose wrote:That's assuming that America even had a right to be here to begin with. We fucking stole the land, end of story, what's so complicated about that?
:roll:

All land, in that sense, is stolen. The tribes that happened to be living there at the time of the European arrival had, almost certainly, killed someone else for it. Spoils of war in a time when war is the preferred method of conflict resolution is as legitimate a claim to ownership as you're going to find.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:00 pm UTC

Dextrose wrote:- Robber steals money
- Another robber comes over and gets permission to use Robber 1's money.
- Conclusion: The robbers' children have a right to the money because they acquired it through the proper channels.

Seems pretty goddamn stupid now, doesn't it.

That doesn't mean that's not how it works, though.

AvalonXQ
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby AvalonXQ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

Dextrose wrote: Allow me to construct an analogy:

- Europeans steal the land
- More Europeans come over and get permission from the original Europeans to live there
- Conclusion: Descendents of these Europeans have a right to live here because they arrived through the proper channels.

Let's change some words, shall we?

- Robber steals money
- Another robber comes over and gets permission to use Robber 1's money.
- Conclusion: The robbers' children have a right to the money because they acquired it through the proper channels.

Seems pretty goddamn stupid now, doesn't it.

Try this:
-Robber steals money
-Robber uses money to pay for purchases at legitimate grocery store
-Conclusion: The grocery store owner has the right to the money because he acquired it through the proper channels.
That's not stupid at all; it's how things actually work.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5401
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:22 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:Try this:
-Robber steals money
-Robber uses money to pay for purchases at legitimate grocery store
-Conclusion: The grocery store owner has the right to the money because he acquired it through the proper channels.
That's not stupid at all; it's how things actually work.

That's exactly what happened in Nazi Germany (godwin your own ass ffs).

-German Government nationalizes jewish property: Jew gets sent to death camp
-German Government sells assets to third party for war money
-Jew survives and wants his assets back from third party who claims ownership because they were obtained through "the proper channels"
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
ekzrated
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:42 pm UTC
Location: Material plane. Sometimes.
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby ekzrated » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:23 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dextrose wrote:That's assuming that America even had a right to be here to begin with. We fucking stole the land, end of story, what's so complicated about that?
:roll:

All land, in that sense, is stolen. The tribes that happened to be living there at the time of the European arrival had, almost certainly, killed someone else for it. Spoils of war in a time when war is the preferred method of conflict resolution is as legitimate a claim to ownership as you're going to find.


Well, that's the whole problem with it. The world has not evolved from "I'm going to steal what's yours, so in effect, since it's legal, it's now mine". Or isn't that what the US does to other countries? What has happened to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, Alaska, etc?
The same thing. Some people are so concerned with having Mexicans take over the country, but why? Isn't this what happened to all these other places? Then it's legal.
I'M MY OWN CASE-STUDY!!!!!!

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Vaniver » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

ekzrated wrote:Well, that's the whole problem with it. The world has not evolved from "I'm going to steal what's yours, so in effect, since it's legal, it's now mine". Or isn't that what the US does to other countries? What has happened to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, Alaska, etc?
The same thing. Some people are so concerned with having Mexicans take over the country, but why? Isn't this what happened to all these other places? Then it's legal.
See, the problem is that in occupation and conquest, the stronger party beats up the weaker party. Saying "the paradigm we should be using is one of conquest, so parts of Texas should be Mexican!" is idiotic, because the response is "ok, time for the Americans to defend their territory with force."
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

AvalonXQ
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby AvalonXQ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
ekzrated wrote:Well, that's the whole problem with it. The world has not evolved from "I'm going to steal what's yours, so in effect, since it's legal, it's now mine". Or isn't that what the US does to other countries? What has happened to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, Alaska, etc?
The same thing. Some people are so concerned with having Mexicans take over the country, but why? Isn't this what happened to all these other places? Then it's legal.
See, the problem is that in occupation and conquest, the stronger party beats up the weaker party. Saying "the paradigm we should be using is one of conquest, so parts of Texas should be Mexican!" is idiotic, because the response is "ok, time for the Americans to defend their territory with force."


Just to emphasize what Vaniver is saying, and make it perfectly clear -- if your argument is that the only rule we can recognize is the rule of MIght Makes Right, then you can't argue against us setting up armed patrols of the border, building fences, deporting illegals, and harming anyone who tries to come in. Americans are not generally a Might Makes Right society, but if that's what it comes down to, then we'll win. Really, I think the pro-illegals side should stick to human rights and rule of law and not go down this path at all.

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby The Reaper » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:57 pm UTC

Europeans didn't steal the original land because the indians didn't recognize the concept of owning land. Therefor, noone owned the land, the indians just happened to be squatters living on land they could have claimed but didn't.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:07 pm UTC

So if Mexico doesn't recognize the USA's ownership of the land, why should they feel bad about moving there and using it? If recognition is the only difference between right and wrong, this seems pretty simple.

AvalonXQ
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby AvalonXQ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:So if Mexico doesn't recognize the USA's ownership of the land, why should they feel bad about moving there and using it?


Because most people feel bad when they get shot, burned, or blown to smithereens.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again -- if you're not going to appeal to higher moral principles, don't complain when we blow you away.
We can have two debates -- a debate about what we CAN do, or a debate about what we SHOULD do. If we have the first one -- the U.S. is stronger, illegals die or get stopped, discussion's over.
If we have the second -- well, that's really the one reasonable people are TRYING to have. About how to allocate rights, what the rule of law should be, how these human beings (emphasize: THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS!!!) should be treated, what we can do about the problems they're causing, etc.

User avatar
Malice
Posts: 3894
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Malice » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:09 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:So if Mexico doesn't recognize the USA's ownership of the land, why should they feel bad about moving there and using it? If recognition is the only difference between right and wrong, this seems pretty simple.


Self-recognition, MJ. What the Indians did was a little bit like leaving a wad of money in the street and saying, "Nobody owns that money, because nobody can own money at all." The Europeans come along and say, "Oh, well then I guess you won't mind if I spend this on hookers and beer."

The US/Mexico situation, recognition wise, is more like the US going, "Everybody back away. That's my fucking money on the ground," and Mexico just walks up and steals some. And then when the US gets mad, Mexico goes, "You picked that up back when the Indians were around."

Taking something from somebody who denies their claim to it is one thing; taking something from somebody who does claim it is a different matter.
Image

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Belial » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:16 pm UTC

Self-recognition, MJ. What the Indians did was a little bit like leaving a wad of money in the street and saying, "Nobody owns that money, because nobody can own money at all." The Europeans come along and say, "Oh, well then I guess you won't mind if I spend this on hookers and beer."


Actually, what it's more like is if we started robbing Christians because theoretically they're supposed to be giving all their wealth away to go preach anyway.

Which is to say, even if they, philosophically speaking, claimed not to own the land, they were still occupying it, living on it, cultivating, and defending it; it was still theirs in the way we understand land ownership. We took it from them the way any conqueror takes something away from the conquered: with brute force and little to no regard for their rights or wellbeing. The whole "well, they claimed not to own it anyway" justification is just a bit of smartassery we use to make ourselves feel better about it.

To throw yet another analogy out, if tomorrow aliens showed up at the white house, gestured to the entire population of the US, and said to the President, "Do these people belong to you?" and he said "Umm..no...you can't *own* people...." and they said "Oh, then you won't mind if we take them and use them for experiments....".....

Well, you can see where I'm going.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5401
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

they didn't really claim to "not own it" as much as they claimed "it can not be owned". They're not exactly the same statement. A closer analog would be public land, not unclaimed land. The concept that they were OK with being refused access to the land they were currently on because you claim it being accepted by their views is absurd. They openly declared it public and the US openly declared them trespassers.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Belial » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:23 pm UTC

Well said. And now that the wind has been taken out of that bit of silliness, back to Mexico...
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5401
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby mosc » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:50 pm UTC

well it's not exactly off topic. It's hard to discuss immigration without discussing our OWN immigration. It's also hard to talk about illegal immigration without defining why something is justified in being illegal. I realize we're focused on 'those horrible Mexicans sneaking across our southern border' and all but it's only part of a larger issue of who justifies borders and why.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Dextrose
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:34 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Dextrose » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:38 am UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:I've said it once, and I'll say it again -- if you're not going to appeal to higher moral principles, don't complain when we blow you away.

Dude...what the fuck? That's retarded. Don't tell me to appeal to higher moral principles, and then threaten to blow me away. I don't have a word for how completely fuckbackwards that is.

In case you're actually too thick to grasp what I'm getting at here: Blowing people away is not a higher moral principle, and you're a fucking hypocrite. I do appeal to higher moral principles, which is why I don't threaten to blow people away. Maybe you should do some mental research on what "higher moral principles" actually means in the real world.


Now, I've got a lot of people shouting "wull lol thats da way it werkz in DA REAL WORLD," and I fail to see the point of this depressing, though astonishingly clever, observation. I know it's the way it works in the real world. That's why it's goddamn happening. Point is, it shouldn't work that way, and the people who do work that way (read: Americans who blow away illegal immigrants) are dickless dick-for-brains'. In effect you've all proven my point by admitting that, yeah, it sucks, but people do it. Really, I think that's just a restatement of what I said to begin with, except there's an extraneous "but" in the sentence that doesn't belong.

Shouldn't we be, y'know, fucking civilised?
Buda, sevmekten, güçlüğü keşfemelidi; severek, budayı olmuş.

User avatar
Akula
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:55 pm UTC
Location: Vermont
Contact:

Re: Illegal Immigration.

Postby Akula » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:25 am UTC

Perhaps I'm late to the party, but here's my take.

What's the big fuckin' deal??? It seems to me that the only solid argument on why illegal aliens are such a scourge is the amount of government aid spent on them. Beyond that, it's all just patently absurd (dey turk ur jerbs!) or thinly veiled racism.

I especially don't understand why "they came here illegally" should be a talking point. Mexico is a shithole with pandemic poverty that flirts with famine. We're the great and prosperous land of opportunity; except we let a laughably low number of people immigrate. It's next to impossible for a dirt poor mexican farmhand to get in this country legally. And so, escaping the aforementioned poverty, they resort to coming in the country illegal. Just what in the hell is objectionable about this? Holding someone responsible for breaking a petty law in order to feed their family is like pulling over an ambulance for speeding.
"I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests