segmentation fault wrote:if you make minimum wage and file for taxes, you'd probably be getting most if not all of it back anyway.
Right, but if you take in a small amount of tax that you're not getting now for however many thousand illegal immigrants you've got in your country, that's actually a fair chunk of change, and should help pay for social services.
Adalwolf wrote:People aren't denied medical care in emergency rooms because they can't pay.
They maybe denied follow up surgeries, chemo, etc, but people from a car wreck are not turned away because they can't pay.
People do, as you say, have to pay some, if they can.
People not paying the full cost for medical is hurting hospitals. Illegals make up a large percentage of people unable to pay.
They are draining the resources of this nation (though they are not the only thing draining it). They bring drugs, gangs, and violence into the country (MS 13). They do not adapt to our culture. They fly Mexican flags above US flags. They have a movement advocating that the Southwest be turned into a new country (Aztlan), or joined with Mexico.
Yes, many are great people. Legal immigration should be reformed to make it easier to get in. Or, on the other hand, perhaps immigration as a whole should be curbed.
All I know is that I'm fed up with hearing about illegals. They should be fined and deported. Ship them out in trains to Mexico city. Build a border fence, with snipers, razor wire, and fuck it, mine fields for all I care. Keep uninvited people OUT. They have no place in society- except to be abused by corporations and to make it hard for citizens to work (which means they shouldn't be here, duh)
Maybe if employers actually had some reason to pay them minimum wage, they could
pay for hospital care. The problem is a dualistic one: Because they've come to America illegally, they get mistreated by employers, which makes them a drain on your social services. If you want the cheap labour, you have to pay the cost in social services. I'm glad to see you don't support this practice, but I fail to see how your policy of deportation would address the fact that illegal immigrants would still come to your country, nor how it would address the cost of finding them and deporting them, which is by no means insignificant.
It also seems rather hilarious to focus on keeping illegal immigrants out of the USA when your border is so large that it would be practically impossible to secure completely, when your foreign policy has driven your neighbours into poverty causing the immigration flood in the first place, and when the existing
plans for border security are beginning to upset locals. It makes more sense to debate the fix to the root cause of the problem before talking about what can be done to alleviate the symptoms right now, as there is no point to alleviating them if you're not holding off for a long-term fix that's in place.
If you support holding onto the existing policies that are causing illegal immigration, I really have little sympathy with your desire to deport those illegal immigrants who are struggling people have been economically displaced from their home countries.
Adalwolf wrote:1. It doesn't matter where their from. If they are from Mexico, Latin America, or South America, ship them to Mexico city. Let them make their own way home.
See, this is more of the kind of attitude that lead to this situation in the first place. It matters if you displace people to Mexico who don't want to be there. If they can't find their way home they will drain Mexico's
resources instead, which will cause more
displacement into the USA from people who have to deal with it.
Deportation is not the process of offloading someone who is a problem to your country wherever you take a fancy to putting them. It is a process of returning someone to a place they have a legal right to be, and if you're going to subvert that paradigm you ought to have some pretty strong arguments to back it up- it's almost worthy of its own thread, in fact.
Adalwolf wrote:2. Hmm, 6 years or so of watching the news, reading articles online, and online forums gives me enough to talk about. If people actually read the articles they stated uninsured people are fucking up our health care, and another one stated that illegals make up a large portion of the uninsured. I think you can add those up.
No, you don't get to assume we can "add those up". If you don't want to do the research, say so, and concede that you don't have the evidence to make the claim. Your opponents cannot fairly apply logic to an argument that assumes either data or logic that is not made explicit. If you have any care for the truth of the matter, then citations are pretty worthwhile, even for less controversial points.
Adalwolf wrote:3. They need to at least learn English, as that is the default language of the US. Immigrants can use whatever language they want at home, but they need to learn English to be able to function in society outside of their home, and their immigrant community (ex: little china, little italy, etc)
4. They can fly their own flag, but NOT ABOVE the American flag. That is showing disrespect and intended to anger people.
3: I think that's relatively uncontroversial that practically speaking they have a huge incentive to speak English, but the consequences of actually forcing
people to speak English are pretty extreme, so America wisely doesn't have an official language.
4: You're restating your opinion, not justifying it. How do you know it is disrespectful of America? Why is it unacceptable to disrespect America? Shouldn't freedom of speech apply here?
Adalwolf wrote:5. Last time people tried to form a new country out of US territory 600,000 American died. I'd rather not have that happen again.
6. Snipers and mine fields were exaggerations. But razor wire and walls are fine. If people are going to come illegally, we can do whatever we want to try and keep them out. They have no right to be here. Have you ever heard of trespassing?
I agree with you that it's a stupid and potentially disasterous idea, but I don't see how that idea is not protected by freedom of speech, and I don't see any proof that this idea is even widespread, let alone fully supported by all the people you seem to have such an issue with. If I judged you by the actions of the worst people in America, you'd seem pretty infuriating to me, too.
I agree that trespassing is bad, but I'd like to remind you of the last time someone tried to stop it on this scale. Do you remember the Berlin Wall? Now, I'm not claiming that your border legislation, or anything more extreme would necessarily warrant that comparison, but it is an important example to avoid. It also wanted to solve the inverse of this problem, so maybe the situation is a little different. But it still taught us that people should be very, very careful about trying to solve socio-economical problems with force- even if that force is just a border patrol.
edit: As Belial points out above, your point about illegal immigrants being disproportionately imprisoned really doesn't carry much weight. If illegals weren't filling in that part of the economy, someone else would have to, and it's likely they'd also fill in those prison bunks, too.