Carrying Guns

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Vaniver » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:13 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:@AbNo, how are they hitting 51 for a rank? Are they including Puerto Rico? Or Canadia? (Canadia's a state, right?)
The most likely inclusion is DC (and, if you check the url he provided, DC is on the table).
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

The Second One
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:22 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby The Second One » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:05 am UTC

I'm absolutely for the right to carry weapons. Of course with license. But this license must be available for everyone who has no special criminal record.
Without the right of guns the situation on the street is often "the right of the stronger". This places women, young, old or just weak people in a bad position. I also think you need something against bullys. Its not only your body and money you have to protect.


I live in Germany and from the perspective of somebody who wants to protect himself we have extreme restrictive laws. You only get the right to carry a gun with obvious reasons. Like working for a security company or run a jewel shop.



The Law got changed on the 2008-03-26 and now includes more (mindless) limits like no knifes with blades over 12cm.
You also can not carry a blank gun around without a "small" license.
Bundesgesetzblatt Teil 1, Nr. 11 (http://www.bgblportal.de/BGBL/bgbl1f/bgbl108s0426.pdf)

With this step the Law just shifted more apart from the reality. Because the definition of weapons already reaches in the area of daily used tools.

But on the other side there are many so called Schützenvereine (shooting association). You won't get a big gun just by entering. You even have to be a member for some time and get a psychological assessment before you can get a gun license. But in the end you can get a gun just for the "fun". You do not have the right to carry this gun around but you can.

There also is the black market. Germany borders on the Czech Republic. So I believe it is easier to get illegal weapons then legal ones.

Sometimes I even was playing with the thought to get a gun on the black market just to be able to protect myself.

No links until you have at least five posts, please. Check out the Rules threads when you get a chance. - Hammer
Last edited by Hammer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Live link removed

User avatar
TheStranger
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:39 pm UTC
Location: The Void which Binds

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby TheStranger » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:15 am UTC

The Second One wrote:Sometimes I even was playing with the thought to get a gun on the black market just to be able to protect myself.


This may not be the best route to go. If you get caught with an illegal weapon the penalties are sure to be rather steep, even more so if you ever use it for defense. Plus I'd wager that the sort of individuals who would sell an illegal weapon are probably not the nicest people to begin with.
"To bow before the pressure of the ignorant is weakness."
Azalin Rex, Wizard-King of Darkon

User avatar
pkuky
Posts: 612
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:16 pm UTC
Location: jerusalem
Contact:

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby pkuky » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

about carrying guns to avoid rape: I've known a girl who went through that. and I've seen what it did to her. it's nearly taken her life away, but it hasn't. so I don't think it's worth shooting someone over. it almost is, but it still falls short of death.
It rains on the enemy too!

User avatar
TheStranger
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:39 pm UTC
Location: The Void which Binds

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby TheStranger » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:32 am UTC

pkuky wrote:about carrying guns to avoid rape: I've known a girl who went through that. and I've seen what it did to her. it's nearly taken her life away, but it hasn't. so I don't think it's worth shooting someone over. it almost is, but it still falls short of death.


Carrying a gun does not mean that you are going to shoot someone, only that you are willing to do so. The ideal use would be to pull out the gun and have your attacker back down (for fear of their life).

We, as individuals, have a right to defend our persons (and property) against harm, a gun is one way to accomplish that.

For myself I see nothing wrong with putting a few ounces of lead into a guy trying to rape someone.
"To bow before the pressure of the ignorant is weakness."
Azalin Rex, Wizard-King of Darkon

Philwelch
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am UTC
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Philwelch » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:51 am UTC

It's not a matter of whether the piece of shit deserves to die or not. It's a matter of whether you deserve to live your life without being raped.

It's not like he raped you and here we are, as a society, sitting around talking about what to do with him afterwards. It's a matter of you making sure you don't get raped to begin with.
Fascism: If you're not with us you're against us.
Leftism: If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Perfection is an unattainable goal.

The Second One
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:22 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby The Second One » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:17 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:
The Second One wrote:Sometimes I even was playing with the thought to get a gun on the black market just to be able to protect myself.


This may not be the best route to go. If you get caught with an illegal weapon the penalties are sure to be rather steep, even more so if you ever use it for defense. Plus I'd wager that the sort of individuals who would sell an illegal weapon are probably not the nicest people to begin with.


Well thanks for your advise. I think that this are some of the reasons I don't have any gun.

But the point about using a illegal gun for defence could still be "your life/healty <> punishment from the law if you get caught". In this case the illegal gun is still a good looking choice.

The point about illegal weapons is that somebody criminal can easy get weapons.To the opposite of the normal citizen can't.

@pkuky: I really have a different position then you. If somebody tries to harm you and wont stop even facing a gun he forfeit the right of not getting hurt.
Of course the German law says that you have no right to shot some as long as he wont harm you/others directly.
I don't know exactly what the law says about somebody running away with something stolen from you. But I think you have no right to shot him in this case. So you only have the right to shot if he wont stop stealing you stuff in front of you or tries to hurt you/others after he saw the gun.

That makes really clear that live is a high value for the law.

Would be interesting to know what laws in other countries say about this!

Jonolith
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:45 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Jonolith » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

The man who tells me that I cannot carry a gun is imposing his will on me as much as the man who shoots me with his gun. Both are a physical domination.

I carry a gun to ensure that if a person attempts to dominate me, they will fail, or at least I will be able to counter their domination with domination of my own in an attempt to return us to a state of neutrality.

Essentially, if you are ever in the position where you are dominating another person, you are in the wrong. (Unless you're into that kind of thing.)

yoni45
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby yoni45 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:00 pm UTC

Jonolith wrote:The man who tells me that I cannot carry a gun is imposing his will on me as much as the man who shoots me with his gun. Both are a physical domination.
...Essentially, if you are ever in the position where you are dominating another person, you are in the wrong. (Unless you're into that kind of thing.)


That's the same as saying anyone who tells you that you cannot rape anyone, or hold anyone hostage, or keep a nuclear device armed in your basement is the same as someone shooting you.

No, that's not the case. All may be a form of "physical domination", but clearly different in other vital respects that make them, for the sake of most argument, not the "same".
I sell LSAT courses and LSAT course accessories. Admittedly, we're still working on the accessories.

Philwelch
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am UTC
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Philwelch » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:29 pm UTC

Indeed. Carrying a gun and not being killed are two forms of "everyone involved minding their own business", whereas raping people involves minding other people's business.
Fascism: If you're not with us you're against us.
Leftism: If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Perfection is an unattainable goal.

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:13 pm UTC
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby clintonius » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:57 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:It's not a matter of whether the piece of shit deserves to die or not. It's a matter of whether you deserve to live your life without being raped.

You've also got to consider how the potential rape victim would feel after shooting somebody. How many people do you know wouldn't experience significant trauma after taking someone else's life, regardless of that other person's actions?

Now, believe me, I'll never be quoted as saying that rape is ok in any situation whatsoever. You also have to consider the fact that you're advocating the removal of life on the basis of one action.
kira wrote:*piles up some limbs and blood and a couple hearts for good measure*
GUYS. I MADE A HUMAN.
*...pokes at it with a stick*

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:47 pm UTC

Actually, he's advocating not being raped. Self-defense is about avoiding personal injury, be it through confronting and overcoming the perceived assailant, flight, or perhaps psychically controlling their mind. Whether or not the perceived assailant deserves to lose their life "on the basis of one action" is immaterial.

Philwelch
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am UTC
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Philwelch » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:50 am UTC

clintonius wrote:
Philwelch wrote:It's not a matter of whether the piece of shit deserves to die or not. It's a matter of whether you deserve to live your life without being raped.

You've also got to consider how the potential rape victim would feel after shooting somebody.


That's not something for me to consider, that's something for the potential rape victim to consider.

If the potential rape victim would really rather be raped than shoot somebody, then she shouldn't shoot the rapist, or probably even carry a gun.

If the potential rape victim would rather shoot somebody than be raped, then she should shoot the rapist and carry a gun.

All I support is the personal freedom to make that decision for yourself. But I am fully aware of your point. If you force me to kill you, I'm still as much a victim of that as I would be a victim of whatever you intended to do to me.

clintonius wrote:Now, believe me, I'll never be quoted as saying that rape is ok in any situation whatsoever. You also have to consider the fact that you're advocating the removal of life on the basis of one action.


No, I'm suggesting the use of potentially lethal force in self-defense. You could shoot the guy in the cock for all I care if it'll work. In most cases you just have to pull the gun out and the guy will back off. The mindset is "prevent this from happening to me". Killing is just a means to an end, a last resort if saying no, pulling out the gun, and other methods either aren't available or didn't work.

Besides—by not advocating self-defense, I'd be advocating rape and potentially death on the basis of one action the person being raped and killed didn't even choose to take. If you attack a woman and she has to shoot you to protect herself from being raped, even if you didn't deserve it, you still put yourself into that situation and forced that situation to happen. Arguing about whether people deserve death for trying to rape an armed woman is like arguing whether people deserve death for hiking into the woods and messing around with bears. If a living being is capable of killing you, don't mess with it! If you do, your safety is not guaranteed.
Last edited by Philwelch on Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Fascism: If you're not with us you're against us.
Leftism: If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Perfection is an unattainable goal.

Jonolith
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:45 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Jonolith » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:59 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:All I support is the personal freedom to make that decision for yourself. But I am fully aware of your point. If you force me to kill you, I'm still as much a victim of that as I would be a victim of whatever you intended to do to me.


I know I'd feel better about it. I don't think I'd lose much sleep if someone forced me to shoot them dead. They made a choice knowing the risks and I simply was there to ensure their choice was followed through with.

User avatar
BlackSails
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:35 am UTC

clintonius wrote:
Philwelch wrote:It's not a matter of whether the piece of shit deserves to die or not. It's a matter of whether you deserve to live your life without being raped.

You've also got to consider how the potential rape victim would feel after shooting somebody. How many people do you know wouldn't experience significant trauma after taking someone else's life, regardless of that other person's actions?


I would be perfectly happy and content to decorate a room with anyone that tries to rape me (or more likely, my girlfriend or sisters).

darren
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby darren » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:01 am UTC

You people have been watching way too many movies.
1) In a real fight, you don't have time to pull a weapon out.
2) If you do manage to pull a gun out in a fight, you just elevated that fight into a gun fight. You announce to everyone in the room that "guns are fair game". You all seem to be assuming that of the 300 million guns in the US, your attacker won't be carrying one of them.
3) There's a thing called judicious use of force. Say you're getting raped. Maybe you've already been raped, but you somehow manage to pull your gun on the rapist, he immediately backs off and tries to get away. You shoot him and kill him. At that point, you are a murderer (not in the philosophical sense, but in the legal sense). You will be tried and most likely convicted of murder and jailed because self defense is a legal term which has standards which you must live up to.

Please, read these:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ta ... nives.html
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/st ... hances.htm
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:57 am UTC

Wow, you've brought up a perspective that has never ever been mentioned in this thread, or one of the half dozen similar threads, and certainly not one that is unable to stand up to statistical evidence. Thank you for opening our eyes. I shall immediately get to work trying to get the second amendment repealed.


Also, the last numbers i heard say that there are only 270 million firearms in the US. Your estimates are off by 10%, making me a pedantic prick.

darren
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby darren » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Wow, you've brought up a perspective that has never ever been mentioned in this thread, or one of the half dozen similar threads, and certainly not one that is unable to stand up to statistical evidence. Thank you for opening our eyes. I shall immediately get to work trying to get the second amendment repealed


Little Miss Sunshine wrote:Richard: Sarcasm is the refuge of losers.
Frank: [sarcastically] Really?
Richard: Sarcasm is losers trying to bring winners down to their level.
Frank: [sarcastically] Thank you for opening my eyes to what a loser I am!

User avatar
TheStranger
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:39 pm UTC
Location: The Void which Binds

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby TheStranger » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:31 pm UTC

darren wrote:
1) In a real fight, you don't have time to pull a weapon out.


Not necessarily true, though the point would be to draw your weapon 'before' the fight starts (and thus avoid the fight completely)

2) If you do manage to pull a gun out in a fight, you just elevated that fight into a gun fight. You announce to everyone in the room that "guns are fair game". You all seem to be assuming that of the 300 million guns in the US, your attacker won't be carrying one of them.


Which assumes that someone else in the room has a gun and that they (for some reason) have chosen not to draw it. You also have a significant advantage with your gun drawn.

3) There's a thing called judicious use of force. Say you're getting raped. Maybe you've already been raped, but you somehow manage to pull your gun on the rapist, he immediately backs off and tries to get away. You shoot him and kill him. At that point, you are a murderer (not in the philosophical sense, but in the legal sense). You will be tried and most likely convicted of murder and jailed because self defense is a legal term which has standards which you must live up to.


That situation is not a very cut/dry one (I'd wager that unless the person turned and ran then you would probably not get a murder conviction).



Most of that seems to be about the use of knives as a self defense item (which is generally a very bad idea, knives are a poor self defense tool). The last link does have some interesting info, but the same material is covered in most, if not all, CCW classes.

You don't just buy a gun, stick it in you belt, and walk out the door ready for the legal repercussions of lethal self defense. Rather it takes time and training to reach that point.
"To bow before the pressure of the ignorant is weakness."
Azalin Rex, Wizard-King of Darkon

User avatar
BlackSails
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:26 pm UTC

darren wrote:You people have been watching way too many movies.
1) In a real fight, you don't have time to pull a weapon out.


Wrong. When you are taken by surprise, you dont have time to pull a gun. And even then, most attackers dont walk up to you quietly.

2) If you do manage to pull a gun out in a fight, you just elevated that fight into a gun fight. You announce to everyone in the room that "guns are fair game". You all seem to be assuming that of the 300 million guns in the US, your attacker won't be carrying one of them.


Not at all. We are just assuming that since we drew first, if they try to draw, we will shoot them. If I draw a gun, I am willing to fire at whatever it is pointing at. If you arent willing to fire, dont ever point a gun at anything.

3) There's a thing called judicious use of force. Say you're getting raped. Maybe you've already been raped, but you somehow manage to pull your gun on the rapist, he immediately backs off and tries to get away. You shoot him and kill him. At that point, you are a murderer (not in the philosophical sense, but in the legal sense). You will be tried and most likely convicted of murder and jailed because self defense is a legal term which has standards which you must live up to.


IEven they can prove that he was done raping you and was leaving, and you didnt still have a reasonable fear of loss of life or limb (which as long as your rapist is in the room, is probabaly still reasonable, many people are raped several times in a row, or killed after they have been raped), there are still several affirmative defenses you can use. I also doubt a jury would want to convict you.

Jonolith
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:45 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Jonolith » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:13 pm UTC

darren wrote:1) In a real fight, you don't have time to pull a weapon out.


No man, I'm telling you! Batman would beat superman! Really!

2) If you do manage to pull a gun out in a fight, you just elevated that fight into a gun fight. You announce to everyone in the room that "guns are fair game". You all seem to be assuming that of the 300 million guns in the US, your attacker won't be carrying one of them.


Don't bother protecting yourself citizen, just let them do what they want with you and file a complaint at the Bureu of Complaints later! We'll definately make sure to put that in a cabinet somewhere which will completely justify your maimed and violated body.

3) There's a thing called judicious use of force. Say you're getting raped. Maybe you've already been raped, but you somehow manage to pull your gun on the rapist, he immediately backs off and tries to get away. You shoot him and kill him. At that point, you are a murderer (not in the philosophical sense, but in the legal sense). You will be tried and most likely convicted of murder and jailed because self defense is a legal term which has standards which you must live up to.


Just remember, guns turn you into a maniac who must shoot everything that moves. It is impossible to not shoot someone if you have a gun in your hand. It's just science.

Pretty much all of your points assume I'm an idiot and will act like an idiot. Please don't assume I'm an idiot.

Philwelch
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am UTC
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Philwelch » Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:41 pm UTC

Any idiot can come up with a whole list of situations where guns won't be much help. What they miss is that there's a whole list of situations where guns do provide a safe, legal option for self defense. Further, just about any of the things we do to protect ourselves are incomplete. Locking your door at night doesn't protect you from rogue locksmiths. Locking the deadbolt doesn't stop Jack Nicholson from taking an axe to your door and unlocking it once he's smashed a big enough hole to reach through. And hey—if you lock and deadbolt your door while your four year old child is outside playing, and they can't get back into the house, and they get hit by a car, you're guilty of child endangerment!
Fascism: If you're not with us you're against us.
Leftism: If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Perfection is an unattainable goal.

User avatar
Gears
Bulletproof
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:31 am UTC
Location: Japan

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Gears » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:00 am UTC

I'm not sure about this, but my dad was an MP in Seattle, which is where I got this information.

Carrying guns at night, on the streets, [i]will not protect you[i], because somebody can be on you within seconds. He told me to invest in a guard dog. Somebody can sneak up on you from the rear, take your weapon from you, or you might forget how to use something (being as you would freeze for some time, not expecting it). never carry something you aren't prepared to use, or do not know how to use. Your weapon could be theirs in seconds. Which brings me back to dogs, they'll be on your side. Unless its dead. Hmm...
General_Norris wrote:I notice a lack of counter-arguments and a lot of fisting.

User avatar
BlackSails
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby BlackSails » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:26 am UTC

Gears wrote:I'm not sure about this, but my dad was an MP in Seattle, which is where I got this information.

Carrying guns at night, on the streets, [i]will not protect you[i], because somebody can be on you within seconds. He told me to invest in a guard dog. Somebody can sneak up on you from the rear, take your weapon from you, or you might forget how to use something (being as you would freeze for some time, not expecting it). never carry something you aren't prepared to use, or do not know how to use. Your weapon could be theirs in seconds. Which brings me back to dogs, they'll be on your side. Unless its dead. Hmm...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Philwelch
Posts: 2904
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:33 am UTC
Location: RIGHT BEHIND YOU

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Philwelch » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:20 am UTC

Gears wrote:I'm not sure about this, but my dad was an MP in Seattle, which is where I got this information.

Carrying guns at night, on the streets, [i]will not protect you[i], because somebody can be on you within seconds. He told me to invest in a guard dog. Somebody can sneak up on you from the rear, take your weapon from you, or you might forget how to use something (being as you would freeze for some time, not expecting it). never carry something you aren't prepared to use, or do not know how to use. Your weapon could be theirs in seconds. Which brings me back to dogs, they'll be on your side. Unless its dead. Hmm...


The point isn't that guns are a panacea, the point is that in the hands of a trained person, a gun will help you in enough situations to be worthwhile sometimes.
Fascism: If you're not with us you're against us.
Leftism: If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Perfection is an unattainable goal.

User avatar
Gears
Bulletproof
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:31 am UTC
Location: Japan

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Gears » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:56 am UTC

I know, guns are useful for fending off bad people. That's why most cops have them. Just saying, a dog can be mean.
General_Norris wrote:I notice a lack of counter-arguments and a lot of fisting.

User avatar
Mabus_Zero
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:30 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Mabus_Zero » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:29 am UTC

If someone or something makes a reasonably convincing threat to my life, then how do I not reserve the right to try to defend myself in the mean time? Especially with the length of time it would take the police to respond, anyways.
Image

Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
TheStranger
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:39 pm UTC
Location: The Void which Binds

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby TheStranger » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Gears wrote:I know, guns are useful for fending off bad people. That's why most cops have them. Just saying, a dog can be mean.


But not deadly against an armed human (with say a baseball bat or a can o' mace).
"To bow before the pressure of the ignorant is weakness."
Azalin Rex, Wizard-King of Darkon

User avatar
Kendo_Bunny
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:19 pm UTC

Gears wrote:I know, guns are useful for fending off bad people. That's why most cops have them. Just saying, a dog can be mean.


It is totally unethical to train a dog to be mean. After all, the average large dog (even pit bulls!) has a gentle and sweet personality, and one usually trains dogs to be mean by starving and taunting them, or by getting a severely overbred specimen with a few wires loose. Very few breeds actually respond positively to defense training, and most of those breeds are totally impractical for inexperienced owners. Yes, a German Shepherd can be trained to attack and will also instantly stop an attack at a word from it's master, but German Shepherds are rather independent, and need a very authoritative, experienced master.

There are some people I would trust with a gun before a potentially dangerous dog. They're equally as likely to shoot themselves as they are to let their dog savage someone. Then there are people who can handle a gun, but can not handle a dog. Then there are people who would buy both for intimidation, and deserve neither for that reason. But I'd still rather have one more gun in the world than one more overbred, vicious dog.

AbNo
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:00 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby AbNo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:18 am UTC

Kendo_Bunny wrote:But I'd still rather have one more gun in the world than one more overbred, vicious dog.


Exactly. I can leave my pistol on my fridge (right next to my wallet, cell phone, pocket knife, etc) for days on end, and it will just kinda sit there.

Now, if I go pick something up from a puppy mill. Now, after it's had some time to grow, let's say I leave it in my house for a couple of days without foos, then take it outside, what's it going to do when I get to the park, if it doesn't try and eat my ankles first?

Also, glad to see you have internet again. What time are we going to the range tomorrow? :D

Philwelch wrote:The point isn't that guns are a panacea, the point is that in the hands of a trained person, a gun will help you in enough situations to be worthwhile sometimes.


*sigh* Sucks having to sound like a broken record, doesn't it, Phil? :?
Darwin was right, but nanny-staters keep trying to undermine him

User avatar
crapsh00t
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:05 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby crapsh00t » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:50 am UTC

I too endorse the usage of a personal firearm for the purposes of self-defence and/or deterrence.

There are so many selfish monsters passing as humans in this world. It might be the random dude walking down the street who feels that your continued existence is worth less than the $30 in your pocket, or the college-educated youth who feels the relief of his sexual urges are more important than the dignity or life of someone's daughter and wife. Not to sound like an anti-social nutcase myself, but these people really are out there, and all of us have seen them during our day to day business.

I personally value life in all forms, while simultaneously understanding the extreme importance of the justice system in regards to society as a whole. The only problem with the respect I have for these two ideals is that they might as well be 1000 years away in situations where you meet someone who genuinely intends to do you harm. For some reason I had a propensity for attracting the ire of wannabe "alpha-males" while in college. It may have been my 130 lbs on a 5'10'' frame coupled with my exuberant and noticeable girlfriend, or perhaps just some general inability to get along with certain types of people.

Either way, on a number of occasions I found myself at the receiving end of a variety of aggressions. I rarely resisted, only ensuring the situation didn't escalate while preserving my own well being. I figured as long as the situations kept defusing themselves I would be fine. I ended up changing my mind after a particularly memorable encounter. I was walking home with my girlfriend and one of her roommates one evening. A young man my age dressed in a polo and khakis was walking down the street in front of us. As he walks up to us, he starts engaging us in conversation, which quickly descends into him leering at the group of us and turning hostile. Next thing I know, he's telling me he's going to give me a taste of his knife. Why? He never asked for my wallet, cellphone, or anything else. He just wanted to see my squirm, and maybe beg for peace or help. The situation continued in this manner, with threats extending to my girlfriends' roommate ("I've never cut a bitch before," is what I distinctly recall as the statement of choice.) After about 5 minutes of protestations with my girlfriend on the phone with 911, the young man just spun around and ran off.

At the time I was not armed. If I had been armed, would I have shot the guy? Under my state's laws, I theoretically would have been legally permitted to kill him for threatening me, regardless of escalation of force. I definitely would have done no such thing. However, I do sincerely believe the situation would have been a lot less hair-trigger if I had some form of self-defense beyond physical grappling. At 125 lbs all the MMA in the world wouldn't have done much against this assailant.

Between events like these and others (a family member was made to kneel and stare down the barrel of a gun after a late night hotel-room break-in,) I don't really think the people who perpetrate these violent crimes deserve our concern for their justice or well-being. Lord knows its the last thing on their mind, and to be honest I feel they've broken the societal standards to which most of us subscribe to badly enough to forfeit my compassion or attempts to ensure that they are subdued in a non-lethal manner.

Perhaps myself and my ilk have had a bad string of luck. I still don't actually own a gun, but when I next find myself living in an area with a high-population density I will likely purchase one. Right now I'm in the boonies relaxing. About the worst assault I could endure at the hands of another organism is getting gored by a deer.

By all means, if you feel uncomfortable with firearms or feel that you wouldn't be able to keep from doing the wrong thing were you to be carrying, don't get a handgun! However, if you had one you might be able to assist somebody in trouble someday. The guy crossing the street telling me "I don't want any trouble!" while I'm having a knife brandished my way was probably a low point in my trust in humanity. :(

As a note: I fire handguns regularly, ranging in caliber from a .380 ACP to .357 Magnum to a .40, they're just all borrowed. I am well versed in general gun usage/maintenance that I would know what to do almost instantly were I to be handed any normal semi-automatic or revolver. The ease of use of such weapons is what makes them simultaneously terrifying in the hands of the wrong person and yet useful to the rest of us.

AbNo
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:00 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby AbNo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:54 am UTC

crapsh00t wrote:After about 5 minutes of protestations with my girlfriend on the phone with 911, the young man just spun around and ran off.


And situations like THIS are exactly why I bring one with me, instead of calling to have one delivered.

crapsh00t wrote:...I don't really think the people who perpetrate these violent crimes deserve our concern for their justice or well-being.


Crap, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, remind me to buy you a drink.

crapsh00t wrote:By all means, if you feel uncomfortable with firearms or feel that you wouldn't be able to keep from doing the wrong thing were you to be carrying, don't get a handgun!


As I've said elsewhere in here, also sound advice. Decisive action of any kind requires mental preparation and conviction. It's not a fun situation, and ya really don't want to be there for it, but if it occurs, you'll just have to be strong in the fact you can suck it up.


The guy crossing the street telling me "I don't want any trouble!" while I'm having a knife brandished my way was probably a low point in my trust in humanity. :(


How does that go?

"We must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

Good post, Crapsh00t. May you never have another day of that type.
Darwin was right, but nanny-staters keep trying to undermine him

User avatar
crapsh00t
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:05 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby crapsh00t » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:07 am UTC

AbNo wrote:How does that go?
"We must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."
Good post, Crapsh00t. May you never have another day of that type.


Amen to that. And to that bit regarding beer on your tab. :wink:

User avatar
Jjarro
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:29 am UTC
Location: Arvada Colorado, U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Jjarro » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:07 am UTC

I carry a gun because the world is full of decent people, but violent criminals we can do without. I don't care about their life, I don't care about their feelings or what brought them to this point, or what society has done to them. I do care about those decent people, and I count myself among them. If I am attacked, or someone I am with is attacked, or someone on the street is in obviously under unjust attack, I refuse to be powerless in the face of evil. I think it's amusing, all these people who want to consider the question of if someone "should" get shot for committing or attempting rape; that's a distraction, a non-issue. It doesn't matter what ought to happen to them; people attack other people at their own peril. It's like arguing about what ought to happen to people who jump off cliffs without equipment. It matters what ought to happen to me. And I ought not get raped, stabbed, killed, or otherwise seriously damaged by some unjustified aggressor.

In the real world, the way to prevent such an aggressor from doing you harm is to fight back with a decisive, aggressive, speedy and ruthless counter-attack. The better your tools, the better your chances of success. A heavy-duty, reliable semi-automatic combat handgun is really the best tool one can reasonably have with them at all times for this purpose, so I carry one when I can. A slightly less ideal, but very concealable supplement and alternative to the semi-auto is found in my .38+p revolver. Now admittedly sometimes the situation is less extreme and it is not necessary to destroy your assailant in order to stop them; often an alert demeanor or keenly delivered threat is sufficient. But if you must fight someone because they are trying to do you grave harm, I see no reason that any concern for their safety would have primacy over your concern for your safety, or the safety of your lover, or the safety of your children. In that situation, you put your foe down hard.
I will never sacrifice those I love because I was unwilling to destroy someone who gave up the protection provided by my rule against the initiation of force. This is a harsh thing to say, and I phrased it that way intentionally. There are many ways to soften the perception of my position, but I don't see the benefit of doing so for this particular intellectual audience.

I've got training. I can draw and fire my weapon, on target, in under a second. I walk around in Condition Yellow all the time. Someday, when I am attacked, I won't be thinking "This can't be happening to me!" I'll be thinking "I knew this would happen someday." And I'll be thinking it as I act.

User avatar
Gears
Bulletproof
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:31 am UTC
Location: Japan

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Gears » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:49 am UTC

Ok. You don't have to train a dog to be mean. If you forget to feed it and it eats you, you're an imbecile.

In respone to people talking to me.
General_Norris wrote:I notice a lack of counter-arguments and a lot of fisting.

User avatar
Akula
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:55 pm UTC
Location: Vermont
Contact:

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Akula » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:54 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:Any idiot can come up with a whole list of situations where guns won't be much help. What they miss is that there's a whole list of situations where guns do provide a safe, legal option for self defense.


Thank you.

How many of you have had your door broken in by an angry drunken redneck wielding a machete??? Cliche as it sounds, it happened to my family. The only thing standing between him and us was a 12 gauge shotgun. That's enough for me.

If they ever manage to ban firearms in this country, I'm not turning them in. If they want to take them by force, they better be ready for casualties. The gun grabbers can kiss my ass. You want them? Come and get them. "From my cold dead hands" isn't a motto, it's a promise.
"I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain

User avatar
Kendo_Bunny
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 am UTC

Gears wrote:Ok. You don't have to train a dog to be mean. If you forget to feed it and it eats you, you're an imbecile.

In respone to people talking to me.


Yes, you do have to train dogs to be mean. We bred the mean right out of most breeds, and even the 'mean' breeds are generally very well disposed towards people unless they are overbred and/or maltreated. For example, my family lived very happily with a gentle, even-tempered Shepherd-wolf for years. He was loved and he repaid it in spades. My best friend's stepmother owns a Cocker Spaniel who is snarly, territorial, and nippy. This poor creature was selected from a puppy mill to become a puppy mill herself, so she was overbred to the point of breaking in both senses. She only accepts that she's been loved by one person- she hates everyone else.

After all, it makes no sense not to breed the fight out of most dogs, considering that we have to live with them. Training a dog to fulfill the same purpose as a gun is unethical, because it usually necessitates overbreeding or maltreating the animal. Some dogs can be called off easily after training, because they don't have a tendency towards a vicious streak. Some dogs still don't have all the battle bred out of them, and are as likely to turn on an innocent person who wandered too close as a bad guy- or to turn on a weak-willed master.

Add that to the fact that if you have, say, a security-trained German Shepherd (one of the breeds who will stop attacking when their master says), you can't bring it into most places. I suppose you could walk him through the streets of the city if you had to walk there after dark, but if you had to go into a building, odds are, you'd have to leave your dog outside (opening another kettle of fish- if it's too dangerous for you to be out without a dog, it's too dangerous for your dog to be out without you). Not so with a gun, which you can keep on your person, and which can't suffer from dehydration or heatstroke.

Though more on topic of gun carrying, I had a little adventure this past week while out carrying- resulting in a changing of a store policy to inform all employees of my state's gun laws.
I moved to a new area, and while out shopping, I stopped into a Dollar General (I needed a waste basket for my recycling). Once I walked in the door, a manager approached me and told me they didn't allow large handbags in the store and would I leave mine outside? I told her I did understand, since I had worked in a store with a major shoplifting problem before (though I was still a little annoyed because the pants I was wearing only have one very small pocket that only just fits my cell phone). I commented that I thought she had been approaching me about my gun.
She did a double take and began 'Well... now that I see that you have that.... I mean, I'm sure you're licensed to carry'
'Actually, Virginia law states that licenses are only needed to conceal, and I'm open carrying.'
She argued with me that I did need a license, then told me I'd have to lock it in my car for the safety of the store. At that point, I'm quite tired of being treated like a criminal for the audacity to think there might be something I want to purchase. I told her if that was the case, then I'd just take my business elsewhere, and have a nice day.

I go into the grocery store next door and do a full lap of the store without a comment, make my purchases, and go out to my car. At that point, a police cruiser pulls up behind me, blocking me in. My gun is fully displayed on the dashboard. The officer comes to my window and asks for an ID, so I handed him my military dependent ID. He asks to see my gun 'for safety', then says that this manager called him to report that I was being belligerent and attempting to unlawfully conceal a firearm. I laugh and turn out my one tiny pocket and say I wouldn't even attempt to fit my gun in there. Another policeman comes up at this point and asks me where I got the gun. I tell him I got it for my birthday.
The first cop is looking seriously at my ID and asks what organization I'm a part of. I tell him I'm a Colonel's daughter.

They run my ID's and my gun and I didn't want to argue since the woman in the store had told them I was belligerent and hostile. I just smiled pleasantly and had a chat with the one while everything was being run, telling him I didn't have a concealed because I had no good place to conceal and that I figured it would be a hassle sometimes. The second cop comes back and I show both of them exactly how my gun was on my hip, and that I wasn't trying to hide anything. The second reminds me to keep my gun prominently displayed in my car, and the first said that I had had it right on the dashboard when he had pulled up. They then both told me to have a nice day, waved as they pulled out, and I came home.

I reported this incident to Dollar General Corporate- the lady at Corporate was shocked I was asked to remove my handbag, shocked I was asked to remove my gun when I was in full accordance with the law, and horrified that a crime was falsely reported. She passed it on to the District Manager, who called me, apologized sincerely, and said his employee must have acted out of ignorance. He said that he would make a point from now on to inform employees of Virginia gun laws to prevent a repeat of this.

So- my life wasn't saved by my having a gun, but I have made more people aware of the law. I'd say more people being aware of their freedoms is a positive thing that was directly brought about by my decision to carry my gun with me openly.

User avatar
poleboy
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby poleboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:50 am UTC

Hypothetical question:

Would you be willing to give up the right to own a firearm for a limited time in order to examine whether this would affect crime in general, the number of firearms-related crimes and such? I figure it would have to be a year at least, in order to collect enough data to make a comparison. I realize this would be almost impossible to carry out in reality.

AbNo
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:00 am UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby AbNo » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:00 am UTC

Counter question: Would you be willing to learn the proper use, care, and restrictions on firearms to learn the same?

I'm just wondering why you seem insistent on removing people's rights.

Why not increase their knowledge?
Darwin was right, but nanny-staters keep trying to undermine him

User avatar
poleboy
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Re: Carrying Guns

Postby poleboy » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:09 am UTC

AbNo wrote:Counter question: Would you be willing to learn the proper use, care, and restrictions on firearms to learn the same?

I'm just wondering why you seem insistent on removing people's rights.

Why not increase their knowledge?


Well since I am not an American, it's not a right to me so obviously I have a different view of such things. And no, I would not mind learning how to use a gun properly. Knowledge is good.
The reason I ask I because I'm not afraid of people with guns. I am afraid of people who turn guns into a part of their identity and violently resist even the idea of removing said guns, because carrying a gun has become part of who they are. I don't think that's healthy.


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests