Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

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Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Lucrece » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:28 pm UTC

AFedchuck wrote:
Malice wrote:Gay used to mean happy.
Then it meant homosexual.
Then, some homophobic people decided that the best way to distance themselves from any notion of foppishness was to use the word as a pejorative. The very idea of making the word "gay" synonymous with "bad" is a bigoted concept.

Sorry, as soon as 'gay' was applied to gay people it became a homophobic slur, as society at that point in time lacked a neutral word. But 'gay' isn't synonymous with bad, it can be used instead of gay in circumstances. Gay is no more a homophobic slur than 'black' or 'African-American' is. Calling someone gay when they are gay isn't deliberately offensive except if you take care to be offensive.

Malice wrote:The normal human response to "The fact that you're gay means I hate you" isn't "Aw, being gay isn't a big deal anyway," it's, "Fuck you, I'm proud of being gay! Look at how fucking gay I am! Look, I'm dry-humping a man on a parade float driving through your stupid straight neighborhood!"
Also, do you really think Willem Dafoe in Boondock Saints is a normal representation of a gay man? He's as much of a caricature as anything you see on the Bravo network.
What do you mean, it "cheapens" the whole thing? Who are you or anybody else to say is the proper way to be gay? That's like saying some Jews cheapen their whole thing by becoming accountants.
Finally, plenty of straight people are equally obnoxiously proud of being straight. Nobody complains when an actress's tits become a selling point for a movie, or when a smoking hot, carefully photographed nude woman is being used to sell shampoo; or when straight people concoct entire systems for bagging more chicks; or when straight people visit an island paradise for the week-long booze-and-fuck-fest called "Spring Break". Nor does anybody complain when, say, veterans have a parade because they are proud of having served in the military. But once the gays do it, aw, fuck, somebody tell those idiots they're gross and it's only going to hurt their cause in the long run.

Just because it's the knee-jerk reaction doesn't mean it's right, just understandable. It shouldn't be an issue to be gay, so don't be proud of it. You examples of 'straight pride' are in fact irritatingly irrelevant.
So using an actress's tits to sell films is straight pride. So no lesbian would be affected by it?
So spring break is straight pride. Do no gay people go to spring break?
The defining element of these things isn't the sexuality of the participants, it's the fact they like sex. This is a marked difference.
And the veterans are a different thing entirely. They are an illustration of a a different point. People no more choose to be straight than they choose to be gay. Hence, pride in belonging to the group is merely divisive. Veterans have fucking done something other than lived. They've put their lives on the line for a cause. I'm not arguing because gay people are gross, but it will hurt their cause in the long run. If you want prejudice to disappear, you need gay people to be considered as people first and foremost, and you aren't going to do that by parading difference.
When people bemoan the lack of gay people in films, the impression I get is that all characters who aren't explicitly gay are considered to be straight. Now, I haven't looked at any studies so this might not be the case in academia and I imagine there is still bias against gay characters. But still,
Perhaps it's right in the short-term, but fundamentally the mindset you are displaying is one which highlights difference rather than similarity. And it's not by recognition of difference that prejudice will disappear, but the recognition of a common humanity.


But people MAKE an issue out of it. We are banned from adoption in some states because of it. We are denied the 1200+ benefits of marriage because of it. Over and over, the usual response expected by the majority of heterosexuals is "you should be ashamed".

The problem is that you don't comprehend Pride parades. It just isn't a parade, it's a nurturing process. We need to take care of each other. After years of continued degradation, your self-esteem will be on the floor if you don't do something about it. Pride parades is where our community gathers and affirms our value. We have OUR dedicated party, as opposed to the prom and other hetero-centric activities we never had. We have our own channels that bother to represent us, as opposed to the other channels in which we make 1-2% of the characters, and these characters are either stereotypes or "barely there" characters. We make our space, simply because you don't leave space for us. You say it's stupid to isolate ourselves through these parades and exclusive spaces, such as gay bars. And yet, what happens when we happen to interact with heterosexual social environments? You brutalize us. Do tell, what happens in a straight bar should you go with your boyfriend and engage in the SAME type of behavior the straight counterparts are engaging in? If you're lucky, you'll get yelled at while reflecting beer cans tossed at you. Most likely, you will get beaten up.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:49 pm UTC

100% agree. People need to learn to get their noses out of business that doesn't concern them(I'll leave the irony of me commenting in a thread that doesn't really have anything to do with me, because irony is funny).

Every human being on the face of the earth is leading an imperfect life. Having one imperfect group telling another imperfect group not to try to live in the way they think will lead to the happiest, most fulfilled life, is the height of hypocrisy.

Why should the people with only right eyes condemn the people with only left eyes? Neither of them have perfect vision.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Kaiyas » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

The underlying cause of all this is the social stigma against homosexuality. In this respect, parading does help them; how much publicity have they gotten from them? Gay rights has clearly become a more prominent issue, because it is getting coverage, because of the parading. Thus, more people in general are pushing to change the social standard. In contrast, no parading would result in less coverage, less controversy, and less sympathetic people working to change the status quo, since statistically, the majority of people are heterosexual.

Of course, this is all coming from a limited view point, but from where I stand, this seems to be the case.

This is making sense, right? Good.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Malice » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:40 pm UTC

From the other thread:

Falmarri wrote:I don't want to get too far into the pride parade thing because the topic got split, but it's the fact of shoving their sexuality in people's faces that grinds my gears, not the fact that it's gay. I would be just as much opposed to a straight pride parade as a gay pride parade. I think it defeats the purpose to parade your sexuality around to people who don't care. And I'll bet 99.99% of the people who would happen to be walking down the street while that parade float with the men in thongs on it drives don't care.


The point, as I explained earlier, isn't about shoving your pride in other peoples' faces. It doesn't matter what everyone on the street thinks; what matters is that the people in the parade are having fun. What's wrong with that?
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Jessica » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

As a gay person, I hate how straight people shove their straightness at me.
Assuming I enjoy being hit on by guys.
Assuming I'm trying to attract a man.
When I go to a stagette with my girlfriends, it's assumed I like watching the male strippers.
I'm sure when I'm a bridesmaid, I'm going to have to dance with a groomsman, and if I catch the bouquet, I'm expected to try and pick up the man who catches the garter.
I'm sure I can think of more things where the heteronormative society shoves their heterosexuality on me.
And, really, I don't care. It's something I've come to expect. When the majority rules, you learn to accept tacit heteroness. but, if I want to actually do something to come out of the shell that I create and society helps create around me, I have just as much right to do that. If I want to kiss my girlfriend in public, or hit on girls, or just be somewhere where I know that who I am isn't being questioned, and doubted, I will do that.

I'm really insulted by one of the things that Falmarri said in another thread. Something like "If people didn't identify as gay, black, jewish, there wouldn't be a problem." That's a great thing to say, if you happen to be in the majority. You don't have to worry about society telling you that you're different, because you are the norm. Essentially you're saying "If everyone just acted like a male WASP, everything would be good". So, if everyone pretended they weren't different, but were the same as you, there wouldn't be a problem. Well, fuck you. I'm not defined by being gay, but it is something I am. I'm trans. I'm white. I'm female. I'm a number of things. The second you tell me to just deny aspects of myself because it's bothersome to you, is the second I laugh and keep being me. Yeah, it means that if people act like they hate people like me, I'll be offended because I'm a person like me. It means that when I read about gays and trans people getting beaten up/killed because of who they are, I get scared and afraid because I share something in common with them. And when I am happy to meet people who are like me, and have shared experiences, like coming out, or living in the minority, or any number of shared experiences, I'm going to be happy.

The majority gets the rest of the time. If you don't like it, well, deal with it. We deal with it every day of our lives, you can do it for a few minutes while you drive downtown.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:37 pm UTC

The pride parade isn't about shoving sexuality in anyone's face. Have you ever been to a Pride celebration? It's about being open with who you are, whoever that is, it's about fun, it's about dismantling societal structures that have historically prevented the GLBT community from feeling as free with themselves as straight people are. Sure there's lots of nakedness and irreverance and glitter--but it's a great cultural event in any city lucky enough to have one.

There are some great aspects of Pride--like Pride Youth groups that outreach to kids, the Pride Prom. So many fantastic things that Pride does for the community, including huge amounts of money for tourism. Anyone walking down the street would probably be having a pretty good time.

In all honesty, I have way more fun at Pride than I had at Caribana when I've gone...

Every other day is straight pride day.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:21 pm UTC

Falmarri wrote:I don't want to get too far into the pride parade thing because the topic got split, but it's the fact of shoving their sexuality in people's faces that grinds my gears, not the fact that it's gay. I would be just as much opposed to a straight pride parade as a gay pride parade. I think it defeats the purpose to parade your sexuality around to people who don't care. And I'll bet 99.99% of the people who would happen to be walking down the street while that parade float with the men in thongs on it drives don't care.


In the only prides I've been to, there were next to no random people walking down the street, because it was packed with supporters who showed up for the event. Many of whom were straight and supporting (a bunch of the marchers, even, were mixed gay-friendly or political groups instead of strictly gay organizations). It's not about random wanderer dude. For a whole lot of people, it's a place to show up and know you're OK.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Jessica » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:21 pm UTC

I really want to goto pride next year. I missed it this year... but I really want to go next year.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:23 pm UTC

Firstly, no one in SF is caught unsuspecting by the parade. People who are made uncomfortable just avoid market street for a day.

Secondly, how is gay pride any different from the black is beautiful movement? When you and people like you are made to feel frightened or ashamed of who you are, the natural response is to want to shout out to the world that you don't care. Gay pride is nothing but a celebration of our being gay and happy. Making the statement that we aren't afraid of anything is just an added bonus.

Also, Pride is a huge event for the community. It brings in tons of money, gives families something to do together and gives politicians and officials another forum to show themselves in. Pride is really no different than any large festival with a message.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:24 pm UTC

I'm planning to go in 09 too. I missed this year though I had intended to go.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Jessica » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:I'm planning to go in 09 too. I missed this year though I had intended to go.

Ooo we could meet up! :D hurrah for toronto pride :D
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Rinsaikeru » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:38 pm UTC

We so could, I'll be sporting spf a million sunscreen. :D
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Hammer » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:44 pm UTC

Please get back on topic.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:07 am UTC

Jessica wrote:The majority gets the rest of the time. If you don't like it, well, deal with it. We deal with it every day of our lives, you can do it for a few minutes while you drive downtown.


The problem is it's dealt with by series after series of backlashes. The gay movement "rebells" against the social standards of the time by being over the top flamboyant. Then people on the other side react to that by being more openly against it. I don't like all the escalation.

I would LOVE it if
Jessica wrote:if I want to actually do something to come out of the shell that I create and society helps create around me, I have just as much right to do that. If I want to kiss my girlfriend in public, or hit on girls, or just be somewhere where I know that who I am isn't being questioned, and doubted, I will do that.

were completely socially acceptable. I just disagree that the way to get there is by having over the top gay pride parades.

I'm really insulted by one of the things that Falmarri said in another thread. Something like "If people didn't identify as gay, black, jewish, there wouldn't be a problem." That's a great thing to say, if you happen to be in the majority. You don't have to worry about society telling you that you're different, because you are the norm. Essentially you're saying "If everyone just acted like a male WASP, everything would be good". So, if everyone pretended they weren't different, but were the same as you, there wouldn't be a problem. Well, fuck you. I'm not defined by being gay, but it is something I am. I'm trans. I'm white. I'm female. I'm a number of things. The second you tell me to just deny aspects of myself because it's bothersome to you, is the second I laugh and keep being me.


I really really didn't mean to be insulting. I wasn't implying that you shouldn't "be you" or deny anything. Just that it's detrimental and dangerous to firstly associate yourself with overarching groups. Any over arching group. I look at it as a form of ultra-nationalism, but instead of association with a nation it's an association with a sexual orientation.

Yeah, it means that if people act like they hate people like me, I'll be offended because I'm a person like me. It means that when I read about gays and trans people getting beaten up/killed because of who they are, I get scared and afraid because I share something in common with them. And when I am happy to meet people who are like me, and have shared experiences, like coming out, or living in the minority, or any number of shared experiences, I'm going to be happy.


I see a gigantic difference between meeting with other people with similar experiences and sharing those experiences and meeting up with anyone and everyone who happens to associate themselves with a certain sexual orientation and parading down the middle of a major street in the middle of a crowded city.[/quote]

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Malice » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:20 am UTC

Falmarri wrote:
Jessica wrote:The majority gets the rest of the time. If you don't like it, well, deal with it. We deal with it every day of our lives, you can do it for a few minutes while you drive downtown.


The problem is it's dealt with by series after series of backlashes. The gay movement "rebells" against the social standards of the time by being over the top flamboyant. Then people on the other side react to that by being more openly against it. I don't like all the escalation.


It's their choice, though. They are absolutely free to say, "You know what, I'd prefer having fun today to campaigning for rights I should already fucking have."
At the risk of sounding childish, they started it. First the bigots oppressed the gays; then the gays overreacted with pride parades; then the bigots overreact as a result. But it's not really the big deal you're making it; most people are not "undecided" on homosexuality. A bigot confronted with a parade will just be an angrier bigot. A tolerant person confronted with a parade will continue to tolerate it. The spectrum is less, supporters -> "I wouldn't mind gays, but the fact that they're so prideful makes me want to deny them equality" -> full-on bigots, and more, supporters -> "I'm not gay, but whatever, it's a free country" -> full-on bigots.

I would LOVE it if
Jessica wrote:if I want to actually do something to come out of the shell that I create and society helps create around me, I have just as much right to do that. If I want to kiss my girlfriend in public, or hit on girls, or just be somewhere where I know that who I am isn't being questioned, and doubted, I will do that.

were completely socially acceptable. I just disagree that the way to get there is by having over the top gay pride parades.


Gay pride parades aren't about that. It's about having fun. It's about being proud of yourself. It's not about convincing the government or the people of something. They have those too; they'll protest or march, and they'll usually wear suits and walk in an orderly fashion to show how normal and put-together they are. It is entirely different from a ticker-tape thong-fest type thing. It's the difference between a protest and a love-fest, in the sixties. Sometimes hippies had a reason to fight; sometimes they just wanted to screw and get high in a public park. They're people, too, not just a movement. If they fight for their right to cut loose without ever stopping to cut loose, what have they really achieved?

I really really didn't mean to be insulting. I wasn't implying that you shouldn't "be you" or deny anything. Just that it's detrimental and dangerous to firstly associate yourself with overarching groups. Any over arching group. I look at it as a form of ultra-nationalism, but instead of association with a nation it's an association with a sexual orientation.


Nobody does that, though. I identify myself firstly by my first and last name. An identity is a composite thing. There's nothing wrong with making your sexuality part of your identity, and there's nothing wrong with taking offense when somebody maligns part of your identity.
It's the difference between nationalism and patriotism. Few people are genuinely nationalist; most people are naturally patriotic.

I see a gigantic difference between meeting with other people with similar experiences and sharing those experiences and meeting up with anyone and everyone who happens to associate themselves with a certain sexual orientation and parading down the middle of a major street in the middle of a crowded city.


Is there something inherently wrong with having that meeting in the middle of a street in a crowded city? Do they hold up too much traffic? Do they offend the eyes of pious on-lookers? Would you prefer it if they were out of sight, out of mind? Tough. Veterans do it. Blacks do it. Gays get to do it.

(Gee, I'm arguing with Fal in three different threads now. It's certainly fun, though.)
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby AFedchuck » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:36 am UTC

I've seen the odd defence of the actual practice of pride parades. This is really a side issue which isn't relevant to my main point. I have deep worries about the whole idea of gay pride, black pride and of course white pride. (Can you imagine how worrying a white pride (in the same sense) parade would be?).
Now, to explain. There have been comments about how people are labelled as gay by society, and so prevented from doing X.
The natural response is to say "I'm gay, and proud, and I can do X". This isn't really a useful response. You have now basically accepted the label of gay. My hope is that, in time, the reponse would be "I'm a person, and proud, and I can do X". This might not seem a significant difference, but to my mind it is. If you define yourself by a point of difference with 'normal society', how can you expect society to treat you as normal?

However, there is a caveat. I don't approve of pride parades being banned, or even think they should be discouraged. Just that people should be aware of this ideal and aspire to it.

Just a quick point, I don't like patriotism either. That's a related but different thread.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Mr. Galt » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:56 am UTC

Malice wrote:
But it's not really the big deal you're making it; most people are not "undecided" on homosexuality. A bigot confronted with a parade will just be an angrier bigot. A tolerant person confronted with a parade will continue to tolerate it. The spectrum is less, supporters -> "I wouldn't mind gays, but the fact that they're so prideful makes me want to deny them equality" -> full-on bigots, and more, supporters -> "I'm not gay, but whatever, it's a free country" -> full-on bigots.


I know I'm probably taking this quote out of context to malice's original point (and it is a good one), but I want to say this anyway.

I'm most likely in this small spectrum of people who say "I don't mind gays, but the fact that they're so prideful makes me want to deny them equality."
Well, not really deny equality per se, but it definitely makes me lose respect for those who act like that. I mean if your going to have pride in something, shouldn't it be in your own capabilities? Not something you chose/were born with? (Not going there)

It seems like most gay people I have met have been of the incredibly shallow type. Being very specifically open and close minded on different topics.

I dunno, maybe I just haven't met enough decent gay people (IRL I mean). Quite a possibility.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Libertine » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:30 am UTC

I think the main reason non-homophobes dislike gay parades is because it goes against our cultural sense of modesty and privacy regarding sexuality. I don't think that's the right attitude to have but I'm certainly not in the norm -- apparently most people are offended by open sexuality be it gay or straight. Sexual matters are not considered 'polite conversation,' people aren't allowed to walk around naked in public, etc. Modesty is encouraged in our society and anything that goes against this is usually looked down upon. Consider how many straight people there are, yet we never have "straight pride" parades. It'd be deemed tacky. I think sometimes gay people get offended by this sentiment, but it's not really that most people are homophobes -- it's that most people believe sex belongs in the bedroom and not paraded up and down main street.

SF has one of the biggest pride parades in the world. I see same sex couples walking down the street holding hands, nobody gives them a second glance. If a naked transsexual walks into Starbucks, nobody says a word (I've seen it happen). I don't think most gay people feel discriminated against on a daily basis here. Regardless, a parade may be their way of saying "I'm here, don't ignore my rights" to the broader government. Alot of straight people go along too. SF is also extremely liberal about straight sexuality. It's not surprising California now allows gay marriage. You don't need a reason to hold a parade, other than that it seems like fun. However, if people start getting the impression "that group of people seems to think they're better than us" you'll start seeing a backlash and a call for more modesty. I'd say that's the main reason a white pride parade or black pride parade wouldn't get a warm reception -- it seems immodest, like the ones holding it just think they're better than everyone else.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Malice » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:06 am UTC

Mr. Galt wrote:
Malice wrote:
But it's not really the big deal you're making it; most people are not "undecided" on homosexuality. A bigot confronted with a parade will just be an angrier bigot. A tolerant person confronted with a parade will continue to tolerate it. The spectrum is less, supporters -> "I wouldn't mind gays, but the fact that they're so prideful makes me want to deny them equality" -> full-on bigots, and more, supporters -> "I'm not gay, but whatever, it's a free country" -> full-on bigots.

I know I'm probably taking this quote out of context to malice's original point (and it is a good one), but I want to say this anyway.

I'm most likely in this small spectrum of people who say "I don't mind gays, but the fact that they're so prideful makes me want to deny them equality."
Well, not really deny equality per se, but it definitely makes me lose respect for those who act like that.


Oh, I think there are people out there with this attitude. Plenty of them--that's why gay pride parades have some controversy. What I'm suggesting is that that attitude rarely influences political action. Like you said, you don't want to deny them equality; it just makes you lose respect for those who do it.

I mean if your going to have pride in something, shouldn't it be in your own capabilities? Not something you chose/were born with? (Not going there)


Again, it's the reversal of bigotry. If you hate me for something I can't change, I can either internalize that, or reject it so strongly that I love myself for that same attribute.

Additionally, lots of people are proud to have been born or raised in a certain place, for instance, or proud of having a natural talent at math or sports. Pride isn't just an intellectual self-assessment; it's a matter of celebrating that which makes you different than your neighbor.

It seems like most gay people I have met have been of the incredibly shallow type. Being very specifically open and close minded on different topics.

I dunno, maybe I just haven't met enough decent gay people (IRL I mean). Quite a possibility.


Well, everybody's open and closed minded on different topics. But I won't try and defend people I don't know. I will say that, in my experience, gay people are usually not shallow. *shrugs* Most people aren't, once you get to know them.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby 22/7 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

AFedchuck wrote:Now, to explain. There have been comments about how people are labelled as gay by society, and so prevented from doing X.
The natural response is to say "I'm gay, and proud, and I can do X". This isn't really a useful response. You have now basically accepted the label of gay. My hope is that, in time, the reponse would be "I'm a person, and proud, and I can do X". This might not seem a significant difference, but to my mind it is. If you define yourself by a point of difference with 'normal society', how can you expect society to treat you as normal?
You're missing the first half of the movie here, which is pretty important. If you've been labeled as gay by society and therefore prevented from doing X, it's society saying that you cannot do it because you are gay. And so the natural (and correct) response to that is, "no, I am indeed gay and I can also do X, which disproves what society claimed (or restricted or whatever) to this point".
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby psyck0 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:20 pm UTC

Parades are fun. Dance parties are fun. Crazy costumes are fun.

Pride parades involve ALL THREE. Thus I am in favour.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Jessica » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:23 pm UTC

I think Malice hit the nail on the head a few times. In my opinion, the fact that people have a problem with gay pride parades (other than the normal slight annoyance you have at all parades if you want to drive somewhere) is that the people who have a problem with it say "stop being so proud of your gayness". Or stop being flamboyant, or stop showing your differences.

But, we celebrate differences in so many ways. In Winnipeg, we have a 2 week festival called folklarama, where we celebrate different cultures around the world. We have christmas parades. We have parades for veterans, or anyone else. People are very proud of their heritage, and often celebrate it. We try and embrace difference in our society. Why can't we embrace the gays? It's just another group taking pride in the fact that, well, they exist. And they want to have fun, and celebrate. It's not really setting back the movement, and keeping silent sets it back more.

Or that's my view.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby SJ Zero » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:01 pm UTC

It's actually an interesting train of thought. I mean, where are the real "pain points" for people who are against gay pride parades? Besides the usual "lolercoaster but straight people can't be proud in parades" tripe, my first instinct is to think of the cognative dissonance inducing imagry of men in gawdy, big, flashy, effeminate clothing. That's not really a great reason to care about the parades, since they're not forcing you to watch (though Fox News seems to love spending as much time as possible glaring at them).

Really, besides ignorant gut feelings, there's no logical reason to have any problem whatsoever with gay pride parades, or any other pride parades -- including christmas parades(What? Did you think they're not about being christian?).

It seems to me that nearly everyone I've talked to here may have a problem just as maligned as being gay -- they're smart and well-read. I've found that in general, people hate that.

I could easily see smart, well-read people getting together to celebrate their unique qualities(like...say....an xkcd meetup?). I could also see people finding irrational reasons to get upset over the same things. This says to me that maybe the gut feeling of a gay pride parade is no different than the gut feeling of a anime con, or a video game con.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:04 am UTC

It has been pointed out, that while there are people who may just simply be homophobic... that the majority of people who don't like Gay Pride Parades don't like them because they flaunt sexuality in public. They'd be similarly annoyed by a straight pride parade, or any other parade that flaunts sexuality openly in public. Recent posts have not been addressing this at all.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby 22/7 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:38 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:It has been pointed out, that while there are people who may just simply be homophobic... that the majority of people who don't like Gay Pride Parades don't like them because they flaunt sexuality in public. They'd be similarly annoyed by a straight pride parade, or any other parade that flaunts sexuality openly in public. Recent posts have not been addressing this at all.
Does it need to be addressed? I suppose we could address it, but it seems like a pet peeve to me, not an actual issue to be dealt with. I'm annoyed about a lot of things that I wouldn't consider important enough to discuss on an internet message board. I mean, this is a once or (maybe) twice a year event, not monthly, not weekly, etc.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:05 am UTC

22/7 wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:It has been pointed out, that while there are people who may just simply be homophobic... that the majority of people who don't like Gay Pride Parades don't like them because they flaunt sexuality in public. They'd be similarly annoyed by a straight pride parade, or any other parade that flaunts sexuality openly in public. Recent posts have not been addressing this at all.
Does it need to be addressed? I suppose we could address it, but it seems like a pet peeve to me, not an actual issue to be dealt with. I'm annoyed about a lot of things that I wouldn't consider important enough to discuss on an internet message board. I mean, this is a once or (maybe) twice a year event, not monthly, not weekly, etc.


Agreed, I don't think it's something that has to be dealt with, but it's definitely part of the discussion. I just don't like that people were ranting on about the parades and how dislike of them is supposed to relate to homophobia and didn't even really acknowledge what Libertine said.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby 22/7 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:28 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
22/7 wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:It has been pointed out, that while there are people who may just simply be homophobic... that the majority of people who don't like Gay Pride Parades don't like them because they flaunt sexuality in public. They'd be similarly annoyed by a straight pride parade, or any other parade that flaunts sexuality openly in public. Recent posts have not been addressing this at all.
Does it need to be addressed? I suppose we could address it, but it seems like a pet peeve to me, not an actual issue to be dealt with. I'm annoyed about a lot of things that I wouldn't consider important enough to discuss on an internet message board. I mean, this is a once or (maybe) twice a year event, not monthly, not weekly, etc.
Agreed, I don't think it's something that has to be dealt with, but it's definitely part of the discussion. I just don't like that people were ranting on about the parades and how dislike of them is supposed to relate to homophobia and didn't even really acknowledge what Libertine said.
Fair point.

To stay on topic and address Libertine's point, I agree about the possible cause of distaste for things like gay pride parades and I understand that train of thought (I'm personally kind of modest about my own sexuality, at least when placed against the backdrop of SF) but have no problem with someone not being modest. It is certainly possible (I think probable) that this is a direct result of the people who I've known in the last 5 or so years (basically since I left home/high school). I wonder if those who are taking issue here haven't really experienced the gay community other than through said parades, as I could see that being an off-putting way of getting acquainted with a community.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Gelsamel » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:52 am UTC

22/7 wrote:I wonder if those who are taking issue here haven't really experienced the gay community other than through said parades, as I could see that being an off-putting way of getting acquainted with a community.


I think that is almost definitely the case, as with everything in society if you're exposed to something long enough it becomes the norm.

So the people who object are probably either those who are raised in conservative or modest environments, regardless of if they're homophobic or not this could contribute to being uncomfortable with pride parades.


Edit: I think the internet plays a major part in accelerating things to become the norm, since it's so immodest and confronting and so persistent and free.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:42 am UTC

Malice wrote:
Falmarri wrote:
Jessica wrote:The majority gets the rest of the time. If you don't like it, well, deal with it. We deal with it every day of our lives, you can do it for a few minutes while you drive downtown.


The problem is it's dealt with by series after series of backlashes. The gay movement "rebells" against the social standards of the time by being over the top flamboyant. Then people on the other side react to that by being more openly against it. I don't like all the escalation.


It's their choice, though.


Oh of course it's their choice. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm simply saying "sure, go ahead and do it. Just realize it makes you look like a fucking idiot." And if they're ok with looking like an idiot, so be it. I'm just pointing out that, as an unbiased outside observer, it doesn't make you look good.

Gelsamel wrote:
22/7 wrote:I wonder if those who are taking issue here haven't really experienced the gay community other than through said parades, as I could see that being an off-putting way of getting acquainted with a community.


I think that is almost definitely the case, as with everything in society if you're exposed to something long enough it becomes the norm.

So the people who object are probably either those who are raised in conservative or modest environments, regardless of if they're homophobic or not this could contribute to being uncomfortable with pride parades.


I disagree. I was raised in the heart of the bay area, and I'm totally against gay pride parades. And not because it's sexuality that's being displayed (though I guess that's part of it), it's simply because WHY THE HELL DO THEY DESERVE A PARADE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH. It's just stupid and is a waste of the public's time, tax dollars, and people shouldn't have to deal with a busy street being shut down because of it. Sure, they do it because it's fun etc, not to make a political point. But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Libertine » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:48 am UTC

Falmarri wrote:But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.

Well to be fair, they pretty much DO. There's New Year's Eve and the 4th of July which always involves blocked off streets near the fireworks. There's Christmas parades. Saint Patrick's Day parades. Chinese New Year's parades. There's the Folsom Street Fair too, you've probably heard of it if you're from these parts. Halloween here caused traffic blocks until they decided to try and ban it and encourage private parties. And occasionally non-yearly events will occur and be a cause for blocked traffic. Probably more that I just can't think of off the top of my head.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Libertine wrote:
Falmarri wrote:But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.

Well to be fair, they pretty much DO. There's New Year's Eve and the 4th of July which always involves blocked off streets near the fireworks. There's Christmas parades. Saint Patrick's Day parades. Chinese New Year's parades. There's the Folsom Street Fair too, you've probably heard of it if you're from these parts. Halloween here caused traffic blocks until they decided to try and ban it and encourage private parties. And occasionally non-yearly events will occur and be a cause for blocked traffic. Probably more that I just can't think of off the top of my head.


I agree with you on some things there. St patrick's day, chinese new year, christmas parade, definitely folsom street fair. Those should all go too. New years eve, 4th of july, I think those are inherently part of our society and as such is not "one group" having fun. I can definitely see where it's hard to draw a distinction though. I just think having a gay pride day is pretty divisive and separatist and more importantly just projects a bad image of homosexuals in general. On a personal note, I've met 2 gay people who have specifically said that it was harder for them to come out because they didn't want the fact that they were gay being compared to gay pride parades and things like that. And I respect that sentiment a lot, because it's exactly the same reason why everyone hates furries.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Gelsamel » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:49 am UTC

Falmarri wrote:I disagree.


Well I didn't say it was the only reason, but just probably the most likely cause of the for most non-homophobics to dislike gay parades.

It's simply because WHY THE HELL DO THEY DESERVE A PARADE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH.


They don't "deserve" a parade... they just want a parade.

It's just stupid and is a waste of the public's time, tax dollars, and people shouldn't have to deal with a busy street being shut down because of it.


I wouldn't support using Tax Dollars to fund it... and I don't really know anything about it. If tax dollars are used to fund it then that is pretty fucked. If they aren't paying to close down the street out of their own pockets then I definitely wouldn't support that. But that is different to hating the parades themselves. You can still think that the parades are fine, but just the funding and shutting down of busy streets is the part you hate.

Sure, they do it because it's fun etc, not to make a political point. But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting
down a major city for an entire day?


Again, I don't know how it all works, but if it's not tax payer funded and they pay to close the street then I would assume that any group would be able to do it yes?
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Libertine » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:03 pm UTC

I always assumed it is partly taxpayer funded, because the police force is paid for by taxes (isn't it?) and they are the ones in charge of traffic and crowd control. And our tax dollars go for pretty much anything the local government decides to do or endorse (like fireworks shows, at a public display). But I think most parades have alot of private corporate sponsors to help offset the cost. Here's what Wikipedia says about the San Francisco gay parade:

The festival is run by a non-profit organization, the San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Committee. According to their web site, their mission is "to educate the World, commemorate our heritage, celebrate our culture, and liberate our people."[5]

The event is funded by a combination of donations, corporate advertising, San Francisco city funding, and donations collected from the participants at the festival.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Malice » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Falmarri wrote:I disagree. I was raised in the heart of the bay area, and I'm totally against gay pride parades. And not because it's sexuality that's being displayed (though I guess that's part of it), it's simply because WHY THE HELL DO THEY DESERVE A PARADE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH.


Because every other day of the year, people are telling them the guy who created the universe will set them on fire forever once they're dead, which those people hope will be soon by the way, simply because of who they choose to have relationships with. A parade helps to balance that horrible shit out.

It's just stupid and is a waste of the public's time, tax dollars, and people shouldn't have to deal with a busy street being shut down because of it.


Oh, come on. What were you going to do with that time? Go to work? Who cares! And, really, a parade consumes so little time and tax dollars it's ridiculous to complain. We're trillions of dollars in debt and you're worried about us hiring a couple more cops for a day? Lighten up.
And, honestly, is it so hard to drive around the blocked street? If you're in the car trying to do it, I can understand getting all pissed. But afterwards, people usually go, "Now that that obstacle isn't in front of me, I don't really care about it either way." I mean, traffic sucks, and maybe I'll flip a guy off while I'm trying to get home in rush hour, but once I'm home I don't sit around fuming about that fucking Chevy that tried to cut me off and Jesus it took like 45 minutes and blah blah blah.

Sure, they do it because it's fun etc, not to make a political point. But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.


I don't really see how you can single out gay pride parades. Clearly you're just mad at people using streets for walking in formation. You should start a new thread about just that stuff.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Gelsamel » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:09 pm UTC

Libertine wrote:I always assumed it is partly taxpayer funded, because the police force is paid for by taxes (isn't it?) and they are the ones in charge of traffic and crowd control. And our tax dollars go for pretty much anything the local government decides to do or endorse (like fireworks shows, at a public display). But I think most parades have alot of private corporate sponsors to help offset the cost. Here's what Wikipedia says about the San Francisco gay parade:

The festival is run by a non-profit organization, the San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Committee. According to their web site, their mission is "to educate the World, commemorate our heritage, celebrate our culture, and liberate our people."[5]

The event is funded by a combination of donations, corporate advertising, San Francisco city funding, and donations collected from the participants at the festival.


Right, well then would Falmarri have similar problems with say... large anti-scientology or large anti-war or large-anything-protests which require the presence of police which would cost tax payer money?

Edit: And those protests might also block streets.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Lucrece » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

Falmarri wrote:
Libertine wrote:
Falmarri wrote:But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.

Well to be fair, they pretty much DO. There's New Year's Eve and the 4th of July which always involves blocked off streets near the fireworks. There's Christmas parades. Saint Patrick's Day parades. Chinese New Year's parades. There's the Folsom Street Fair too, you've probably heard of it if you're from these parts. Halloween here caused traffic blocks until they decided to try and ban it and encourage private parties. And occasionally non-yearly events will occur and be a cause for blocked traffic. Probably more that I just can't think of off the top of my head.


I agree with you on some things there. St patrick's day, chinese new year, christmas parade, definitely folsom street fair. Those should all go too. New years eve, 4th of july, I think those are inherently part of our society and as such is not "one group" having fun. I can definitely see where it's hard to draw a distinction though. I just think having a gay pride day is pretty divisive and separatist and more importantly just projects a bad image of homosexuals in general. On a personal note, I've met 2 gay people who have specifically said that it was harder for them to come out because they didn't want the fact that they were gay being compared to gay pride parades and things like that. And I respect that sentiment a lot, because it's exactly the same reason why everyone hates furries.


Because they want to appear "normal", and such parades get in the way? Please. You might as well be a UFC champion, rip your chest hair out on a daily basis, drink lots of beer, bash lots of heads, and you will still be thought of as yet another goddamned queer. The problem is not how you act; it's the fact that you don't fuck women, and fucking men makes you womanly, which is anathema in the straight male world. This is something some people just don't get. You can break stereotypes all you want, but it won't matter to the bigots.
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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:27 am UTC

Malice wrote:
Falmarri wrote:I disagree. I was raised in the heart of the bay area, and I'm totally against gay pride parades. And not because it's sexuality that's being displayed (though I guess that's part of it), it's simply because WHY THE HELL DO THEY DESERVE A PARADE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH.


Because every other day of the year, people are telling them the guy who created the universe will set them on fire forever once they're dead, which those people hope will be soon by the way, simply because of who they choose to have relationships with. A parade helps to balance that horrible shit out.

It's just stupid and is a waste of the public's time, tax dollars, and people shouldn't have to deal with a busy street being shut down because of it.


Oh, come on. What were you going to do with that time? Go to work? Who cares! And, really, a parade consumes so little time and tax dollars it's ridiculous to complain. We're trillions of dollars in debt and you're worried about us hiring a couple more cops for a day? Lighten up.
And, honestly, is it so hard to drive around the blocked street? If you're in the car trying to do it, I can understand getting all pissed. But afterwards, people usually go, "Now that that obstacle isn't in front of me, I don't really care about it either way." I mean, traffic sucks, and maybe I'll flip a guy off while I'm trying to get home in rush hour, but once I'm home I don't sit around fuming about that fucking Chevy that tried to cut me off and Jesus it took like 45 minutes and blah blah blah.

Sure, they do it because it's fun etc, not to make a political point. But does every group get to have their fun if it involves shutting down a major city for an entire day? I say have your fun, meet in a park, or a place that's designated a RECREATION AREA. Not the middle of friggen market street where you have to have a ton of cops and state paid for security etc there.


I don't really see how you can single out gay pride parades. Clearly you're just mad at people using streets for walking in formation. You should start a new thread about just that stuff.


Umm, I can't even respond to this because your response to my points were "lighten up, deal with it" And "we're already trillions in debt, so we might as well spend more money."

Gelsamel wrote:Right, well then would Falmarri have similar problems with say... large anti-scientology or large anti-war or large-anything-protests which require the presence of police which would cost tax payer money?

Edit: And those protests might also block streets.


Well it depends. If it's government sponsored, yes I'm against it. If it's simply a protest, then no. If, for example, the gay pride parade WASN'T government sponsored, and the gay people were simply protesting by shutting down the street for a day to create awareness, I would respect that more. I don't see why the government should allow them to shut down streets etc. The government would never, as far as I know, give a permit to an anti-scientology protest to shut down market street for an entire day. And if they would, I would be against it. Your right to protest doesn't supersede people's rights to get to where they're going.

Gelsamel wrote:
It's simply because WHY THE HELL DO THEY DESERVE A PARADE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH.


They don't "deserve" a parade... they just want a parade.


Umm, care to read that again? They want a parade so they should get one? Why the hell is that? I want a lot of things, doesn't mean the government should get them for me.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:28 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Because they want to appear "normal", and such parades get in the way? Please. You might as well be a UFC champion, rip your chest hair out on a daily basis, drink lots of beer, bash lots of heads, and you will still be thought of as yet another goddamned queer. The problem is not how you act; it's the fact that you don't fuck women, and fucking men makes you womanly, which is anathema in the straight male world. This is something some people just don't get. You can break stereotypes all you want, but it won't matter to the bigots.


Well we're talking about different people then. People who are going to hate homosexuals are going to hate them regardless. But people who don't necessarily hate them will have a worse opinion of them for having such a parade, and those are the people that I care about/am talking about.

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Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Lucrece » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:43 am UTC

Falmarri wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Because they want to appear "normal", and such parades get in the way? Please. You might as well be a UFC champion, rip your chest hair out on a daily basis, drink lots of beer, bash lots of heads, and you will still be thought of as yet another goddamned queer. The problem is not how you act; it's the fact that you don't fuck women, and fucking men makes you womanly, which is anathema in the straight male world. This is something some people just don't get. You can break stereotypes all you want, but it won't matter to the bigots.


Well we're talking about different people then. People who are going to hate homosexuals are going to hate them regardless. But people who don't necessarily hate them will have a worse opinion of them for having such a parade, and those are the people that I care about/am talking about.


People that would have worse perceptions just because someone's different from them. Sounds like the two are the same type.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

Falmarri
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:21 am UTC

Re: Pride Parades (Split from "Slurs")

Postby Falmarri » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:54 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:
Falmarri wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Because they want to appear "normal", and such parades get in the way? Please. You might as well be a UFC champion, rip your chest hair out on a daily basis, drink lots of beer, bash lots of heads, and you will still be thought of as yet another goddamned queer. The problem is not how you act; it's the fact that you don't fuck women, and fucking men makes you womanly, which is anathema in the straight male world. This is something some people just don't get. You can break stereotypes all you want, but it won't matter to the bigots.


Well we're talking about different people then. People who are going to hate homosexuals are going to hate them regardless. But people who don't necessarily hate them will have a worse opinion of them for having such a parade, and those are the people that I care about/am talking about.


People that would have worse perceptions just because someone's different from them. Sounds like the two are the same type.


It's NOT because they're different though, that's the point. It's because they're shutting down main street, walking down it in flagrantly sexual outfits, and getting tax dollars for it...


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