The least racist country?

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cspirou
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby cspirou » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:09 am UTC

I think it's probably the Netherlands or France. I know that there were riots in France and similar Muslim violence in the Netherlands. However those did not have to do with race. The French don't care about race or national origin one bit unless you're in the Front Nationale. But failure to assimilate is a different story. The "problem" with many of the Arabs is that they live that they won't conform to French norms. They continue to wear the hijab, they want to impose sharia law and they stay within neighborhoods cutoff from the French mainstream. If there's any discrimination going on it's because of culture and ideas, not because of race.

The Netherlands had become too tolerant. Extremely conservative Muslim sects thrived within the country. The wake up call came when when Theo Van Gogh was murdered and they realized they had to do something.

So when you're defining racism, do you mean the color of your skin or the ideas in your head?

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Lemminkainen » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:31 am UTC

Mish wrote:
Lemminkainen wrote:The United States-- name any other non-African country where somebody of African descent has been elected president.

You're joking right? Belize for one, any number of other Caribbean states for some more.
Lemminkainen wrote:Hell, name any other large or significant country with a head of state who's a member of a racial minority.

Kazakhstan. The prime minister is Uyghur who form a 1.5% minority.

Ethnic minorities are incredibly well integrated in Central Asia . The president of Kyrgyzstan is from a 9% minority and doesn't even speak Kyrgyz, the Uzbek president is mixed race.

Not a great example for obvious reasons, but the president of Pridnestrovie/Transnistria is from the Russian minority and didn't even set foot in the country until 1989.


While they are not in Africa, most Carribean countries have majority-black populations, meaning that they still wouldn't be electing somebody of a racial minority. Also, while Uyghurs are a small minority in Kazakhstan, they are hardly a different race-- they're Turkic, just like the majority of the population of Kazakhstan. Really, an Uyghur being elected in Kazakstan is no more significant than the election of the half-Hungarian Sarkozy in France.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Philwelch » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:24 am UTC

cspirou wrote:I know that there were riots in France and similar Muslim violence in the Netherlands. However those did not have to do with race. The French don't care about race or national origin one bit unless you're in the Front Nationale. But failure to assimilate is a different story. The "problem" with many of the Arabs is that they live that they won't conform to French norms. They continue to wear the hijab, they want to impose sharia law and they stay within neighborhoods cutoff from the French mainstream. If there's any discrimination going on it's because of culture and ideas, not because of race.

The Netherlands had become too tolerant. Extremely conservative Muslim sects thrived within the country. The wake up call came when when Theo Van Gogh was murdered and they realized they had to do something.

So when you're defining racism, do you mean the color of your skin or the ideas in your head?


If the Muslims engage in more outward racism (i.e. anti-Semitism), and they have free run of the country and commit acts of violence, and no one calls them on their shit, doesn't that make the country as a whole more racist? It's no different than if a group of fanatical South African apartheidists set up shop in the US and joined the Ku Klux Klan.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Iv » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:46 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:If the Muslims engage in more outward racism (i.e. anti-Semitism), and they have free run of the country and commit acts of violence, and no one calls them on their shit, doesn't that make the country as a whole more racist? It's no different than if a group of fanatical South African apartheidists set up shop in the US and joined the Ku Klux Klan.

Do we really want to derail thread by going into the anti-semitic vs. anti-muslim thing ? From what I can see here there are acts of violence against synagogues, there are acts of violence against mosques. None of them goes unpunished. While I agree that letting a minority use racist arguments against another minority makes the country biased and somehow racist, I contest that this is happening in France. Some people (usually from the far right) are regularly condemned for racist speeches against muslims or jews. Fanatic muslims don't get a special license to say whatever they want in the name of cultural diversity : an imam who publicly called for beating unfaithful spouses have been forbidden to come back in France.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Grop » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:26 pm UTC

I wouldn't say France is the least racist country (note I wouldn't say it is spectacularly racist - and I agree with what Iv said). Many Arab people would tell you it is harder for them to find a rent, or a job, and how often they are checked by the police.

(I don't know how to search for relevant sources - I only found figures about racist acts, but this is only relevant if you have something to compare them to).

Regarding islamophobia, it is hard to tell what is motivated by racism from what isn't. Also, it is so convenient to be against Muslims without admitting to be racist.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby cspirou » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:22 am UTC

Grop wrote:Regarding islamophobia, it is hard to tell what is motivated by racism from what isn't. Also, it is so convenient to be against Muslims without admitting to be racist.


Which is true. My opinion is colored by how black people were treated in France in comparison to how they were treated in the USA. Many blacks moved to France from the USA when they say how different they were treated there. After WW1 several American soldiers decided to stay when they say the contrast of what it was like in the USA. Jazz musicians and other artist didn't have problems in France like they did in the US. Josephine Baker is one example.

I think this article is a pretty fair assessment of what it's like in France.

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/ ... y-hong.php

Especially the last paragraph:
Stovall offers a socio-historical explanation for this change. "Most [African-Americans] don't know which country in Africa they come from,” he says. This is in contrast to the recent arrivals of Africans in France. "A good percentage of blacks [in France] have an attachment to other cultures." Therein, he believes, lies the reason for the rise in racial tensions in France, which he believes arose after he settled here.


Which is what I meant. If you mean "race" by your physical appearance then it's a non-issue in France. However cultural attitudes is something else. Also note that 'least racist' does not mean 'no racism'.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Grop » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:17 am UTC

I agree with most of what was said in the article you linked to. I am confident France in the sixties was much better for black men than the US at the same time. However it is true that even today, many people hardly ever meet a black person, and aren't confortable about them. It is also true that black people are more likely to be checked by the police than white people.

This article also makes a point that I find interesting: economics are related to racism. When a market provides more jobs than there are workers, foreigners are welcome (and this is related to how immigrants have been welcome in the US, which has always been extremely wealthy until lately). When many people have no job, it's a different story.

Edit: Also, while "the least racist country" != "no racism at all", it is still a very strong claim.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby 0.0 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:31 am UTC

There is no correct answer, this much is true. And I don't have a specific country I would advocate. I do think that there are areas of the US that are very liberal and accepting and something like San Fransisco may be one of the least racist cities.

I really wanted to add to this conversation the point that every country can have a certain level of acceptance and seem non-racist but still has some underlying racism that you or I may not notice looking at face value. You have to know who they target. Hong Kong for example is one I know fairly well, especially compared to my fellow americans' views. While in Honk kong, expats seem to be well respected and I have never personally seen any bias towards any whites including myself. But on the other hand they do seem to have a more asian oriented racism that is prevalent. Many of you can probably back up my perspective that Chinese, Korean and Japanese have a deeply seeded "opposition" to one another. This probably comes from negative historical conflicts that are passed down from generation to generation (as most racist beliefs are). One joke I heard from a Hong Kong born and raised citizen opened my eyes a little. "What place has the most Phillipinos in the world?" The often given answer is "Central Park." This is where most maids and personal service type workers go on Sundays in Hong Kong. And then the pay off answer by the joke giver is "no, the Philippines." Shortly after hearing this joke, my suspicions were raised and through well placed questions and listening, I realized that there was quite a class system and some very biased elitist type thinking when it came to "dark" asians. That said, we in America generally don't give two craps whether you're Philipinno or Korean. We either accept you just fine or hate all asians. I guess what my point is, racism comes in different flavors and a huge portion of it goes unnoticed by outsiders of a race that is not a target. Which of course makes this OP's question that much more impossible to answer correctly. Different people hate differently, and almost all races have racists. All races have uneducated assholes as well.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby casiguapa » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:54 am UTC

Surely the question should be "Which country is the least discriminative?" For example, the U.K would be a candidate for least discriminative as, technically, minorites are actually encouraged to intergrate, mixed-race relationships are highly common, employment and education is viable to all and the media has a somewhat decent balance of minorities. However there is still underlying racism in suburban areas, and in areas where cultural diversity has not been welcomed, but on the whole the country welcomes and indeed celebrates racial and cultural diversity.

I guess I'm living proof of my case of the U.K being one of the least discriminative countries. Young black female of immigrant background, in an interracial relationship, with mixed race relatives, highly educated and able to get a job within the public services on equal pay to my white co-workers :)
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby eternauta3k » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:23 am UTC

cycoden wrote:I am only able to suggest western countries as I know very little about south america, for example.
Damn it, all this time I thought we were western...
I wonder what might happen in 50 or 200 years. Some cultures won't mix much (say orthodox muslims or jews) but maybe it's possible that significant inter-racial mixing will occur and discrimination will be negligible.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby waltwhitmanheadedbat » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:56 am UTC

yohanleafheart wrote:
Pez Dispens3r wrote: Countries like Brazil


Sorry, you are very wrong. Not saying it doesn't happen, as it does, and more noticeable on the urban centers. But not very racist as you implied. We are no Southern America for example, and far from South Africa during the apartheid.


North vs. South probably isn't as big a deal as opposed to rural vs. urbanized. People in Appalachia probably tend more towards racism than people in Atlanta and other major population centers. Hell, according to the 2000 census, "African American" was the largest single-race response for most of the southern states: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... States.svg

I have a friend who was born in the US and spent ~5 years in Brazil, so I'll see if I can check up on the claim that Brazil isn't "very racist." He lives in Miami and says it's about the same race relations-wise, IIRC.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Certhas » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:17 pm UTC

0.0 wrote:Chinese, Korean and Japanese have a deeply seeded "opposition" to one another.


Wouldn't that be more nationalism than racism? As in France, Germany, England about a hundred or two years ago?
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby athelas » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:56 pm UTC

jjono wrote:1. Employment. Do people of different races earn similar wages?
2. Education. Are minorities well-represented in secondary and tertiary eduction?
3. The Law. Arrest rates, conviction rates, deaths in custody.
4. The media.
5. Public figures. Are minorities proportionally represented in politics?
6. Social life. Are mixed-race relationships common?


Is there part of the criteria that requires that the minority in question actually be as employable, educatable, law-abiding, etc? Or are we going to take the blank-slate, all-groups-are-exactly-the-same assumption? Does having an affirmative-action system in which admittees with lower test scores turn out to still populate the bottom decile of the college's grade distribution give a country anti-racism points, or racism points? (If you think anti-racism, what about the case in Malaysia and Indonesia, the majority Malays and so on use affirmative action to discriminate against the minority ethnic Chinese, who were previously overrepresented in higher ed and the wealthy, after anti-Chinese race riots?) If a subgroup turns out to commit 50 times as many crimes per capita, should we really still expect equal arrest and conviction rates?

Just getting y'all to think a bit critically about your terms here.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:16 am UTC

cspirou wrote:think it's probably the Netherlands or France.


This is rather ironic. A poll this week showed that the Party For Freedom (PVV) would now be the largest party in the Netherlands. The PVV is Geert Wilders' vehicle, and has little political stances except muslim hate, its leader was recently not allowed in the UK for this.

Part this is probably a statistical fluke, and largest party means 17 or 18% of the vote in this case, but a few years a go the Lijst Pim Fortuyn (in hindsight a very moderate anti-muslim party) got a comparable amount of votes, after their leader was killed by an environmental activist. So I think it is safe to say that for at least 10 or 15% of the people, an aversion towards immigrants is a main criterium when voting. On the other side of the spectrum, the Socialist Party has been gaining a lot of votes, at the expense of the much more mainstream Labour Party. The Socialist Party is definitely not a racist party, but it is much stronger oriented to traditional, white working class people, while the Labour Party is the default party for immigrants. So this probaly reflects at least some additional percents of people changing party based on immigration politics.

But like others have already mentioned, be careful before translating these results to a two-party system. Both an openly racist right and an anti-immigration left seem part of American politics, but just more integrated in larger parties.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Philwelch » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:09 am UTC

There's a difference between being anti-immigration and racist, especially when it's targeted at an immigrant group which holds cultural views that are decidedly opposed to that of your own culture.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:41 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:There's a difference between being anti-immigration and racist, especially when it's targeted at an immigrant group which holds cultural views that are decidedly opposed to that of your own culture.


That's definitely true, and an important difference in politics. But there is also a definite streak of xenophobia and outright racism in the same streams, although you are right that pure racism is not the driving force for the parties or most of their voters.

But a separation between xenophobia and racism is hard to make, even if that difference is also very real. To see pure racism without xenophobia you have to find countries with a subpopulation that is seen as a different ethnic group, even though its culture and language etc. is identitical to the mainstream. But such a situation is pretty much racist by definition, the Japanese example shows this. But how are you going to separate between countries that include all subgroups in the mainstream, and are therefore not racist, and countries that only have a mainstream but would be racist if there where subgroups?

Think of the situation of Slavic people in the US. In the past, they were seen and as a different race, and there was racism against them. Nowadays they are much more the same culturally as the rest, and more seen as simply "white", and there is less discrimination. But does that mean that the US has become less racist because it has included them in the mainstream, or that the racists are still there but no longer see them as a different race? It's probably both, but they are hard to separate.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby celandine » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:46 pm UTC

Not to jump all over you, Athelas, but you must be aware that social conditions affect the degree to which races/ethnicities are employable, educatable, law-abiding, etc. The difficult thing is that class stratification affects individual behavior -- things like delayed gratification, belief that effort brings reward, and so on. Those kinds of skills -- cognitive and non-cognitive -- correlate very strongly with future financial and educational success. And they also correlate very strongly with a lovely, safe, enriching early childhood environment with parents who care about education. See Heckman's paper on "Schools, Skills, and Synapses" on this.http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1139905

The way children are educated in the U.S. is shamefully unequal, and I'm afraid I'm no longer convinced that your kind of abstract accountability even makes sense for comparing people who may never have a chance to succeed equally or develop their talents fully. I'm kind of convinced by Jonathan Kozol here.http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/American-Apartheid-Education1sep05.htm. Please, do read the whole thing. Normally, I would say that his politics aren't mine, but I find this very compelling.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby celandine » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:08 pm UTC

Also: my (black, future international relations wonk) childhood best friend swears up and down that the French don't have any racism. I find that hard to believe, reading the news, but she has more firsthand experience both with racism and with living in France, so I guess she would know.

I don't really think any country is free of racial and cultural animus. There are cities, or neighborhoods within cities, that are pretty cosmopolitan in outlook, and where people are decent to each other. I grew up in what I think was a pretty okay neighborhood, proudly integrated and multi-national, but we were in the middle of one of the most segregated cities in America, so I guess we were at best complacent.

From what I hear, minorities visiting a very ethnically homogeneous country are treated more with curiosity than with negativity. In (pre-1989) Russia, if you weren't white, you were a kind of oddball marvel. So maybe someplace like Iceland isn't very racist.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby mosc » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:45 pm UTC

Not to poo poo on this whole thread but the definition of "race" itself is paramount. This discussion is fatally flawed in that regard. You're all operating under various definitions of race that make objective comparison impossible. The way we identify race in the first place puts a measure on racism. If you don't divide, you have no racism. If you place your lines carefully, every country is a hate filled mess. Immigrant vs Native, Religion vs Religion, shade of skin color vs shade of skin color. The drawing of the lines themselves become the central measuring stick. The discussion is circular and based on no objective means of comparison.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby athelas » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:26 am UTC

celandine wrote:The way children are educated in the U.S. is shamefully unequal, and I'm afraid I'm no longer convinced that your kind of abstract accountability even makes sense for comparing people who may never have a chance to succeed equally or develop their talents fully. I'm kind of convinced by Jonathan Kozol here.http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/American-Apartheid-Education1sep05.htm. Please, do read the whole thing. Normally, I would say that his politics aren't mine, but I find this very compelling.

True, although since schools are controlled locally I'd be more inclined to cite differences in parental involvement and value of education, rather than seeing children and parents as some sort of passive recipient of an ill-defined racism. My point is that we cannot use an "equality of outcome" argument for detecting racism. It is entirely possible for one group to be more highly educated or more criminal than another, and in that case it would be racist to expect universities and employers to admit equal numbers, or for police to adjust until everyone's proportionally arrested.

And again, what are we to make of cases, like 1920s Jews or Chinese in southeast Asia (or Asians in the US, for that matter) where the minority is clearly discriminated against yet manages to become more economically successful than the majority? Are we to discriminate to level them down in order to maintain the illusion of equal outcome?

Here's an interesting though only tangentially related video of a model of racial segregation.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby celandine » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Well, schools are funded by property taxes, and they're heavily affected by national initiatives (like No Child Left Behind.) So I wouldn't leave it all up to parental choices, though those are certainly important.

I don't think equality of outcome is the thing to focus on either. (And yes, I get it about successful immigrant groups and the unjustified resentment they inspire, very much so.) But you don't even have to start by worrying about inequality of outcome -- there's plenty of procedural inequality, plenty of contemporary inequities.

That's kind of my reaction to the checkerboard model, too. That's very clever -- I hadn't seen that. And yet it's sort of a "sufficient but not necessary idea," saying that segregation would happen even if there were no real racists. Not necessary, because we have a historical record. We know that in the first half of the twentieth century there was a pattern of bombings to keep blacks from moving into white neighborhoods. Later (and later means at least into the seventies and eighties) there were restrictive practices by homeowners' associations and realtors' associations. This isn't simply a matter of people freely choosing where to live, and clustering by race; it is sometimes backed by violence, and sometimes has the force of law.

I'm not trying to beat down on you. You make valid points, and I'm glad someone's making them, because it's a serious question how much we should be prepared to equalize outcomes. I really don't know that myself.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby athelas » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:59 am UTC

Ah, well now we're talking. In that case we can start looking at cases of procedural racism as criteria for this thread, and I'm curious to see what specific examples people pull up. Though, related to your discussion of housing, I'd like to bring up the Community Reinvestment Act, which responded to the trends you mentioned by requiring banks to make loans to low-income borrowers that ordinarily wouldn't have qualified for them. Sheer racism, proponents said, since it led to minorities getting loans. But in fact the collapse of these low-quality mortgages (not all minority-owned, of course, but the degradation of lending standards was the excuse many used to get rich) was the triger for today's financial disaster. In this case it seems that the original system was rational and color-blind, and that the activists calling for more mortgages were the racists, effecting an unjustified transfer of wealth from everyone else to members of their race.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby celandine » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:02 am UTC

It's really questionable whether the Community Reinvestment Act triggered our financial crisis.
(See here. The CRA did not encourage lenders to make riskier loans: in fact, non-CRA mortgage firms made subprime loans at twice the rate of CRA-covered firms.

This is from the same Wikipedia article you linked:

In their 1961 report, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights found that African-American borrowers were often required to make higher downpayments and adopt faster repayment schedules. The commission also documented blanket refusals to lend in particular areas (redlining).[18] The "redlining" of certain neighborhoods originated with the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) in the 1930s.

Speaking in 2007, the 30th anniversary of the CRA, Ben Bernanke, Chair of the Federal Reserve System since 2006, stated that the high costs of gathering information, "may have created a 'first-mover' problem, in which each financial institution has an incentive to let one of its competitors be the first to enter an underserved market." Bernanke notes that at least in some instances, "the CRA has served as a catalyst, inducing banks to enter underserved markets that they might otherwise have ignored".[9]

That's not a colorblind system: that's systematic discrimination, influenced if not initiated by the Federal government. Maybe it's a "first-mover" problem of coordination, rather than a problem of racial hatred. But it's not the situation as it's painted in the popular (conservative) imagination, which goes

1.) Making loans to black people on the same terms offered to white people is too risky to be profitable.
2.) The government forced financial institutions to make risky loans.
3.) Crisis!

Both 1) and 2) are incorrect.

Now the CRA did effect a transfer to members of a particular race. I see that as redress. Of course, we can debate whether redress is a proper function of government, whether the CRA was a blunt instrument, whether it was even effective at its stated aim (which I'm not sure about.) But it wasn't itself racist, and it certainly didn't wreck our financial system.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby celandine » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:22 pm UTC

Also, you may or may not know this, but Steve Sailer (the guy you linked to) is affiliated with VDARE, who by their own acknowledgment publish white nationalists.

I hate to say this, because I have a pretty strong tendency to give everyone's arguments the benefit of the doubt, and I certainly don't want to criticize you personally. But these people are racists. That's not name-calling, that's the appropriate label for someone with VDARE's views on race.

I'm sure they're nothing to worry about, but they're not a reliable source of information.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby TAIWO » Fri May 15, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

least racist= sweden, finland, norway. theres a catch though. they are also the most expensive.

uk is one of the more racist countries if you are muslim/asian. there is alot of anti muslim propaganda floating around britain. even their prince refers to them as ragheads and pakis. canada is also on the same witch hunt.

america has some of the nicest people you will ever meet, but also the worst. the thing with america is, you will actually meet these nice and bad people, whereas in scandinavia you probably wont. they are much more of a closed society, and dont usually talk to random strangers at the bus stop.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby General_Norris » Sat May 16, 2009 10:14 am UTC

I think we have a problem and that is separating racism with xenophobia and those two with social insecurity.

I have trouble knowing if Spain is racist, for example. In the 90s I'm sure nobody would say anything to a black or muslim person. They would be far between but no problem. However now people are afraid of them but it seems to me that they do not focus on the race but on race as a probable indicator of criminality. This is going to be harsh but I have never seen in my life around here a non-guettoed (if that's the word) muslin, chinese or black (With one exception) person. And even though gypsy people have been in Spain for centuries I have NEVER seen one who was not guettoed.

Never! In schools I have never seen non-guettoed black girls nor muslims who actually were worried about education. Most inmigrants I see speak broken Spanish and work on illicit activities of some kind or work on guetto-related shops or a dispensable workforce often without any kind of contract.

It seems to me that most people become racist because of social insecurity mixed with pragmatism. For example my mother is not racist , she has some inmigrant friends and when talking to a person she doesn't mind about race. However, when talking about a collective...

Tu put it simply. Is it racist to be more a afraid of a group of black youngs than of a group of white youngs when you know they are more prone to assault you and not because of race but because they are very probably guettoed?

And old people in Spain are racist for sure, Franco probably has something to do with it.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby mikeyberman » Sun May 17, 2009 4:05 am UTC

Lemminkainen wrote:The United States-- name any other non-African country where somebody of African descent has been elected president.


You can't just randomly say that people of African descent are the measure of racism. There are many countries in which people of different ethnicities have been elected.


More importantly, what proportion of Obama-supporters do you think voted for him specifically to prove that they AREN'T racist?
Those who voted for him due to his race, are racist.
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Grop
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Grop » Sun May 17, 2009 10:43 am UTC

mikeyberman wrote:More importantly, what proportion of Obama-supporters do you think voted for him specifically to prove that they AREN'T racist?
Those who voted for him due to his race, are racist.


And yet, they have probably initiated progress. Because next time a black man runs for president, maybe this question will matter less.

@General_Norris: I too think racism in a country is much related to the general insecurity and economy. Also, the thing about a group of minority-only people (especially men) is a two-way street. You as an individual act in a racist way when you avoid them; but they also grouped this way because society is racist. (Also, you probably judge them on the way they dress as well - I don't avoid groups of Arabs when they aren't dressed like the typical Arab punk).

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Yakk » Tue May 19, 2009 2:37 pm UTC

Lemminkainen wrote:While they are not in Africa, most Carribean countries have majority-black populations, meaning that they still wouldn't be electing somebody of a racial minority. Also, while Uyghurs are a small minority in Kazakhstan, they are hardly a different race-- they're Turkic, just like the majority of the population of Kazakhstan. Really, an Uyghur being elected in Kazakstan is no more significant than the election of the half-Hungarian Sarkozy in France.
So, because the US considers someone with even one drop of "African" blood to be a member of the black race, and treats them poorly, electing a president who is half Kenyan is somehow a sign of less racism than some other society having a well integrated ethnic group from which they elect a head of state?

Also note: Americans didn't elect Barack Obama. Americans elected electors by state, who (in a completely separate venue) chose Barack Obama as your head of state.

In a similar sense, Canadians elected MPs from the party that the PM had support, who chose Michaelle Jean to be the Canadian head of state.

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casiguapa
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby casiguapa » Tue May 19, 2009 6:06 pm UTC

Anyone who puts France down as a candidate needs their head examining. The riots that happen on a yearly basis between the police/affluent v the moroccans,algerians,blacks, [insert ethnic minority here]. It happens almost every single year. This is how Le Pen managed to cause a furore a while back by gaining enough votes to cause a commotion, it's why La Haine still rings true today. No, racism in France is anything but dead, in some places it's not even subtle.
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cspirou
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby cspirou » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:40 pm UTC

casiguapa wrote:Anyone who puts France down as a candidate needs their head examining. The riots that happen on a yearly basis between the police/affluent v the moroccans,algerians,blacks, [insert ethnic minority here]. It happens almost every single year. This is how Le Pen managed to cause a furore a while back by gaining enough votes to cause a commotion, it's why La Haine still rings true today. No, racism in France is anything but dead, in some places it's not even subtle.


Like I said before, it's less about race in France and more about ideologies and social class. How many Christian Africans were in those mobs vs Muslim Africans? I'm not trying to say anything critical about Islam and I'm not suggesting it's a violent religion. What I am saying is that the French in general want homogenization and a unified French identity rather then a patchwork of enclaves. So if you refuse to join then you are ignored. Far right anti-immigrant parties like Front National do exist but the greater problem is assimilation.

This is somewhat in contrast to other countries like Spain and Italy where racist taunts are routinely heard at soccer matches. In those countries there is an antagonism instead of ignoring the problem.

That being said, this is a thread on the LEAST racist country and I still consider France a strong candidate for that. France still has plenty of problems but does that mean another country is fundamentally better at race relations?

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby General_Norris » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:13 am UTC

cspirou wrote:This is somewhat in contrast to other countries like Spain and Italy where racist taunts are routinely heard at soccer matches. In those countries there is an antagonism instead of ignoring the problem.?


I do not hear any racist taunts in Spain at all and I live here. What I hear is a) Independentist taunts b) Insulting the king c) Idiots d) Idiots e) Idiots. Specially A and B, and yes those are crimes but Spain is a happy candy world and it's fascist to do something about it.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Philwelch » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:54 pm UTC

General_Norris wrote:
cspirou wrote:This is somewhat in contrast to other countries like Spain and Italy where racist taunts are routinely heard at soccer matches. In those countries there is an antagonism instead of ignoring the problem.?


I do not hear any racist taunts in Spain at all and I live here.


Samuel Eto'o would beg to differ with you.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:18 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
cspirou wrote:This is somewhat in contrast to other countries like Spain and Italy where racist taunts are routinely heard at soccer matches. In those countries there is an antagonism instead of ignoring the problem.?


I do not hear any racist taunts in Spain at all and I live here.


Samuel Eto'o would beg to differ with you.



Like Philwhelch may have pointed out, you just haven't been with the crowd that does it. There are cities in Spain that are rather enlightened, but typical white male circles in aggressively male cultures will present cases of racism. Sports and other cultures emphasizing dominance and rivalry are breeding nests outbursts of bigotry.

Venezuela and Brasil, for example, are aabundant with racial mixing. However, racism is still a large source of tension in their sociopolitical infrastructures.
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby General_Norris » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:48 pm UTC

Well, at all isn't correct. I don't hear enough racist taunts so as to call it "routinely heard". I think the other points are much more common. I think they spend more time insulting the other team than being racist if you ask me. They are stupid so they try whatever they have.

Unfortunatedly football is not exactly the pinnacle of Spanish culture. Not at all. Very much not at all. Football attracts the worst of society around here I'm afraid.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Griffin » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:23 am UTC

could be argued that Asians don't face the racism in this country that historically has been leveled at Blacks

In America? I'm pretty sure this quote was in reference to America?

Historically, Asians have been treated like total crap. I mean, really really badly. Especially on the west coast. Thankfully, nowadays, its a lot better, but go back a hundred years and it would be a lot easier to find large groups of people willing to treat blacks equally than to treat asians equally, assuming you stick to sections of the country where both were common. (minor minorities, those that exist in very very small numbers, don't really arouse all that much ire or hatred for the most part - they're not visible enough). Oddly enough, blacks and Asians, from what I've read (could be wqrong, haven't seen much on this part) got along even more poorly (similiar to blacks and the Irish back when the Irish were the whipping boy of the public). Of course, that's all historical - nowadays, most of the racist folks I know still don't like Asians any better than black people, but they have earned enough positive press with their whole "academic excellence, very rarely cause crimes, try to avoid causing trouble" thing that they're a lot more difficult as targets.

Hmm.. about the New Zealand thing, I have to say New Zealand is actually pretty good, diversity wise, for the most part, and are doing fairly well with the indigenous population, at least compared to a few of their neighbours (*cougth*Australia*cough*) but there's still plent of racism around too. At least here in Auckland I've noticed ethnic groups seem to, for the most part, stick with their own, but there also doesn't seem to be a lot of tension between them. There's a weird sort of cultural disconnect that I never really noticed in the States.
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Mr Jack
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Mr Jack » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:14 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:
cycoden wrote:Hmm. If I had to guess, I would probably guess New Zealand, maybe Canada. I was drinking with some caucasian kiwis on the gold coast, and the breadth of knowledge, understanding and respect they had for their indigenous peoples was far in excess of my understanding of Australian indigenous people, despite considering myself to be reasonably well educated, and having (unlike most Australians) actually visited a remote indigenous community.


I would advise drinking with some Maori before making that judgment, though. Race relations in New Zealand are not as idyllic as they may seem, and in general, the dominant ethnic group always has a harder time identifying racism than subordinate groups.

In addition, you might have been speaking to some comparatively liberal chaps.



New Zealand's very different to countries such as Australia and the Americas, where the Europeans pretty much waded in and took control. It was a lot more orderly in New Zealand, what with the Treaty of Waitangi. Most indigenous grievances in NZ are a matter of land disputes and so on, as opposed to what you got in Australia and the Americas.

Outside of the legalistic sort of thing, where I think NZ is doing well at getting it right, I think NZ does have a few problems, although they probably pale in comparison to even Australia. However, Maori have the same problems as a lot of indigenous groups - low incomes, poverty, unemployment. If there's any tension between Maori and Europeans, the differing socio-economic status is what keeps it alive.



I find the attitudes of New Zealanders to Asian immigrants makes me more uncomfortable. Maybe it's just because I'm a biased white academic kind of person, and I know a lot of Asian immigrants.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby Adacore » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:08 am UTC

I have no idea if I got anything like the general perspective, but when I was working in Portugal I was really impressed by the complete integration and lack of racism I saw there. That may just have been because, as someone commented on Spain, I never saw the racist bits of the country/culture. I don't have any evidence to back this up except the general feeling I had when I was living there.

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Re: The least racist country?

Postby C.B » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:40 am UTC

TAIWO wrote:uk is one of the more racist countries if you are muslim/asian. there is alot of anti muslim propaganda floating around britain. even their prince refers to them as ragheads and pakis.


This should be taken with a pillar of salt. Though it's true we get the odd anti-Islam nutjob, we get nutjobs of every variety. As it is, the last such notorious anti-Islam guy was barred from entering the UK (in the process making him even more notorious, sigh).

"their prince" - Prince Philip. He's a daft old bat and well known to be totally cuckoo. He is definitely racist and has dropped some absolutely shockers in his time (search Wikipedia for Prince Philip quotes) but he is in no way representative of the country today.

Having just so patriotically defended my country... it is also true that the UKIP (subtley racist) and BNP (overtly racist) political parties are making headway in parliament, so we can't claim to be the least racist.

How about Singapore or Jamaica?

Jamaica: Repeatedly elected a minority (white) prime minister (a guy called King, IIRC).

Singapore: City state with highly mixed population - British/Chinese/Indonesian/Malaysian/more. Has historically always been extremely mixed. Don't know in any great detail, but when I was there I was never aware of any discrimination. Somewhat homophobic, authoritarian government however.

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WICKED
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Re: The least racist country?

Postby WICKED » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:44 am UTC

sweden is not so racist from what ive read about them. finland is probably another one who is good. one way to gauge the racism of a country is to see how they do in terms of other human rights such as womens rights, gay rights, how much they help the homeless or disabled. as you can see, america really doesnt do anything for these groups, so you can see why they would be one of the more racist countries. most european countries are less racist than usa. in europe, people know that racism is wrong (even if they are racists), whereas in usa, they see it as freedom of speech.


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