Religion: The Deuce

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TheGrammarBolshevik
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:07 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:I'm not sure why you would take "The Ten Commandments are in effect" to mean "The Ten Commandments are widely observed."
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LaserGuy
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:53 am UTC

Surely if Christians believed that the Ten Commandments were still in effect, they would be obliged to follow them?

elasto
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:54 am UTC

- Don't worship any other Gods
- Don't use God's name as an expletive
- Have a day off work every week ["The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"]
- Respect your parents
- Don't murder
- Don't have sex with married people
- Don't steal
- Don't lie in court
- Don't covet things belonging to other people

Which of those would modern day Christians have a real problem with?

Sure, they may not always follow them perfectly but what adherent to a religion does?

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yurell
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby yurell » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:42 am UTC

I thought the ten from Exodus 20:2 were:

1) 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2) 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3) 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4) 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5) 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6) 13 Thou shalt not kill.

7) 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8) 15 Thou shalt not steal.

9) 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10) 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

At least, the first set of ten (which Moses smashed IIRC), anyway. You seem to have missed out the second, elasto, which I'm sure disagree with the notion that God will punish four generations of good Christians because their ancestor wasn't; God tends to be a lot more forgiving than that. Also, the seventh depends on translation; while I understand 'do not murder' is a more accurate translation from the Hebrew, 'kill' is what is written in most versions, and most Christians I know don't know enough Hebrew & Greek to read the books in their original languages.

Added to that, I'm sure many don't agree with the part in the first were God brought the Hebrews out of bondage in Egypt (archaeology says this didn't happen), or the part in the fourth where God created the world in under a week (goes against basically all the evidence for the Earth's formation that we have).
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:41 am UTC

I don't know about the ten commandments, however most Americans can't follow the law of the land very well and need the threat of prison and punishment to prevent them from raising too much hell. They're as honest as they need to be. Otherwise they lie, they cheat, and they steal. They drive drunk, use copious quantities of rugs, and manage to kill or endanger a goodly number of their fellow men doing so. They commit adultery wholesale, abandon their kids when they're inconvenient. They gossip, scheme, fuck over their fellow man and otherwise act like what they are, humans. By definition Christians are human and subject to the same characteristics that make up humans. Why would I expect that they could be better than me.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:51 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I don't know about the ten commandments, however most Americans can't follow the law of the land very well and need the threat of prison and punishment to prevent them from raising too much hell. They're as honest as they need to be. Otherwise they lie, they cheat, and they steal. They drive drunk, use copious quantities of rugs, and manage to kill or endanger a goodly number of their fellow men doing so. They commit adultery wholesale, abandon their kids when they're inconvenient. They gossip, scheme, fuck over their fellow man and otherwise act like what they are, humans. By definition Christians are human and subject to the same characteristics that make up humans. Why would I expect that they could be better than me.

elasto wrote:- Don't worship any other Gods
- Don't use God's name as an expletive
- Have a day off work every week ["The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"]
- Respect your parents
- Don't murder
- Don't have sex with married people
- Don't steal
- Don't lie in court
- Don't covet things belonging to other people

Which of those would modern day Christians have a real problem with?

Sure, they may not always follow them perfectly but what adherent to a religion does?
Fuck man; If that is what you are Like;
Then the most Atheist have you beat.

Fuck man; If that is what you are Like;
You need The Church like no other.

Spoiler:
I can't argue with your premise.
Human Nature looks Real Bad sometimes.

Let us Look at Your List of Our Qualities:

Dear God; I jumped down a rabbit hole Looking at Your qualities.
Hey! yes. Humans have some Shit Qualities.

Not everyone spends a Life Time becoming An Asshole.
Some people are Born to it.

Others take Lessons.

I Have PTS. That is a condition that many people have.
I try very hard to not have it be a Disorder.

When I got it,
1. It was described as Shell Shock.
2. People before me have had it.
3. Not only Solders get it.
4. One of the Best Treatments for it is a Military Environment. That is fucked up.

Where ya' going to Look for people that have Developed their Inner Asshole?
A Church? Sure.
I Know for a Fact that can and does Happen.

When I was Young, That was a Long Time, ago.
I heard older people say, "He is hiding behind The Cross."

Some people hide behind the Cross forever. You don't.
That is Good News. Right?

You are better than That.
1. You do not make Excuses.
2. You do not Tell the world that 'The Blood of Jesus has washed You Clean.'

You take you Foul Qualities and Project them onto the Rest of us.

No One Knows one like one?
What ever it is You Know about You, You Know about All Other People?
Yes. That is a Reasonable Position.

Christians? What is a Christian?
People that go Down to the River to pray?

Those are Hindus. When the Christians do that They are Hindus.
shh. Don't Tell Them. This is a Christian Nation. No Hindus!

It is All people. All people are what you say they are.
Dogs lie. It is true. Deception runs Deep.

Dogs are Terrible Liars. Some people are Terrible Liars.
Terrible Liars are Funny. It is best to not Have To lie.

Lying is Stressful for Many. Not all.
Some people would Rather Lie than tell the Truth.

At all times; From the moment they begin to speak.
Were You like that as a child?

People are also Funny and Dear.
One child never said a Word.

The first words out of his Mouth,
That I ever heard, were a lie.

He was Lying for His Brother.
How charming was That?

Of course, I let him think I believed him.
He was protecting someone he Loved.
I hope.


- Don't worship any other Gods
- Don't use God's name as an expletive
- Have a day off work every week ["The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"]
- Respect your parents
- Don't murder
- Don't have sex with married people
- Don't steal
- Don't lie in court
- Don't covet things belonging to other people

Which of those would modern day Christians have a real problem with?
Elasto?
Lip service or Really Do?
Lip service is Easy.

I have known some Americans.
Christans? Well; memorized the list.

Believe it or Not.
Stand up and say Honestly; "I have broken All of The Ten Today."

It does not even have to keep a person very busy.
That Sex with a Married person is Tricky for people that are not Married.

There are Ways. Don't worry.
It is easier to Get into Heaven by Breaking the Laws in Delightful Ways
than it is to Get into Heaven by Enforcing the Laws in Horrible Ways.

What do you think?

Edit: I looked at your list.
Lie in Court? Only Judges and Attorney could do that.
The Bar is Too High.

Are you willing to change it back to simply lying.
Everyone can do that. We don't want to make Breaking All of the Ten too difficult to perform.

That is why 'Coveting your neighbors Ass' had to become, 'covet belongings'
It was Impossible to covet the neighbors Ass sometimes.
1. No donkey.
2. That is, just, Not a Butt I would want.
See?

It's easy to Lie. It's hard to get into Court, everyday.
Besides, It is not nice to lie in Court.

If you ever get inside a Court Room, Lie.
I forgot to, Last Time I was in One.

You can lie like a Rug until you are on The Stand.
Tell the Person sitting next to you you are Something you are Not.

That's fun. Then get up and walk out.

Hell-o;
I am an Alien.
Yes. From Up There.

Why do People Not Believe me?

Then get up and walk out.
If you are in a court room, the victim has other things to think about.
It might repeat on them. Like cucumbers.

See? That is Mean.
I think it is Funny.
No wonder, I don't have any Friends.

ech. It is a compelling story; When Told Right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u49BWPODYKE

It's a wonderful Fairy Tail. One of Many.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:55 pm UTC

elasto wrote:- Don't worship any other Gods


Matthew 6:19-21,24 wrote:Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."


There are lots of wealthy Christians.

- Don't use God's name as an expletive


Right, this never happens.

- Have a day off work every week ["The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"]


Lots of people work seven day weeks.

- Respect your parents


I'm guessing you don't spend much time with teenagers?

- Don't have sex with married people


Matthew 5:27-28 wrote:You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart


Also:

Mark 10:11 wrote:So he (Jesus) told them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her"


Divorce rates among American Christians are about 30%.

- Don't covet things belonging to other people


See: capitalism.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:16 pm UTC

Actually, if I remember correctly, religion and divorce were positively correlated. Certainly, I recall no indication that Christians were less likely to divorce.

They do, however, frequently make words about being pro-marriage and anti-divorce. If you're like me, you put little weight in words without matching actions, but some seem to care about them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:50 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Actually, if I remember correctly, religion and divorce were positively correlated. Certainly, I recall no indication that Christians were less likely to divorce.

They do, however, frequently make words about being pro-marriage and anti-divorce. If you're like me, you put little weight in words without matching actions, but some seem to care about them.

That's not Right.
What is Your point?

There are Good Points to be made for Both Sides of That one.
It is Not Christianity it is All Religion.

Religion is Not like Abortion.
In What Ways?
1. If your Brain is functioning as God intended, then You have One or Fifty.
2. You can Lie about it. God Knows?

no. Haven't You Done Any Of The Reading?
One Book! One!?
This is a Fifty Book Minimum. RIght?

oh. oh. oh. Help! Help. God help.
Any old Anybody can come crusing into The Religion Thread and Type any old thing they want.
This Is The Internet! Yeah! Freedom? yeh?

Party is at Our Planet.
Let us Drag ourselves to another, What?

What is this? Religion Class?
When does it get over?

Did you go to Religion Class? Really?
What was That like?

Now; Back to Religion.
How many Religions are there, Brian?

Brian? Where is Brian? What happened in The Movie?
I did not see the Whole Thing. I am afraid I know what Happened.

Brian. How much like Jesus do you think Brian was?
We could do The Point by Point. What would that Solve?

We Lost Another One? Did you ever Look at a Man and Really Like That Guy?
I have asked. How old are You?

"That is Young. Go Home and Stay there until you are 33."
I Worry. Beautiful Young men with Beautiful Big Inclusive Ideas. I Worry.

I don't Worry about The Assholes. Maybe I should.
What if I am One? gack.

Damn it! I am in a Foul Mood.
Why is there only One Religion?

Yes. I am aware that Religion Fractals.
That is beside the Point.

Some of those Old Time Religions Are Weird, too!
Let's Gossip! Do You Know What The Hindus Do?

Do they know Why? They are Working On it!
That is beside the Point.

If ya' Wanted to be Hindu inside the US today How would you Start?
Be Born That Way? That would be my first guess, too.

Are you Hindu? MoM? DAD? No? So; Religion?
Try Hindu on. That might fit! It is So Cool in Some Ways.

Mystics seem to be So Much alike. Have you Noticed.
Christian Mystics. Hindu Mystics. Islamic Mystics.
Mystics. Have you ever met one?

If you could tell it is a the Mystic; The Mystic might be doing it wrong.

I Love Religion!

Torture Chambers and Cloak and Dagger What else ya' got?
NSA and STD's What else ya' got?

Alpha beta soup? Some special Code?
What do you do with That Part of Your Brain?

Do You See in Color?
I used to Think it did.

No one else sees it? oh.
Then, I don't see it.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:13 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
elasto wrote:- Don't worship any other Gods


Matthew 6:19-21,24 wrote:Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."


There are lots of wealthy Christians.


Wealth is a danger for sure. Just like power corrupts, wealth can corrupt. That's what that passage warns against. But that doesn't mean wealth is intrinsically immoral any more than power is intrinsically immoral. That interpretation makes no sense.

- Don't use God's name as an expletive


Right, this never happens.


I guess your experience must be different to mine. I honestly don't come across many Christians using God's name as a term of abuse. As a term of surprise sometimes, perhaps, but if there's a God I seriously doubt he cares about that. (Or, if he does, he's not a God I want to have anything to do with)

- Have a day off work every week ["The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"]


Lots of people work seven day weeks.


Seven day weeks on a permanent basis - as in no time off ever? Surely you exaggerate. As a one-off basis or on a temporary basis, sure, nothing wrong with a bit of overtime as the lesser of two evils. The Sabbath is made to serve man, not man the Sabbath, remember, and that includes needing to work.

But even those who are unable to find any time off still surely agree that having at least one day off a week is wise. And that's all this advice is saying. Do you disagree with it?

- Respect your parents


I'm guessing you don't spend much time with teenagers?


Respect doesn't mean slavish obedience. You can question or even disobey but do it respectfully. There's no escaping that learning to grow apart is going to involve conflict and friction and tempers will sometimes get lost. The wise teenager will try to keep his parents on side though. Do you really disagree?

- Don't have sex with married people


Matthew 5:27-28 wrote:You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart


Also:

Mark 10:11 wrote:So he (Jesus) told them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her"


You're taking those statements too literally. Unfortunately many religious people read their texts too literally too, so it's a common mistake.

Divorce rates among American Christians are about 30%.


And? Divorce is bad (do you disagree?), but often staying together would be worse (do you disagree?). Don't condemn people for choosing the lesser of two evils, that makes no sense, and any interpretation of the texts that would say that makes no sense either.

Actually, the real mistake was almost certainly getting married in the first place, rather than the mistake being the divorce. (A fundamentalist obsession with sex outside marriage being a huge crime against morality - when God, if there is a God, probably hardly cares, or even most likely approves in most cases - definitely doesn't help in that regard. Very many fundamentalists could do with rebalancing their priorities in so many areas, but I digress.)

- Don't covet things belonging to other people


See: capitalism.


'Not coveting things belonging to other people' does not equate to 'not coveting things'. I can want a glass of water in general without having to want to take the glass of water you're drinking. I can want to own a car without wanting to take your car.

--

Honestly, this is all pretty common sense. Basically, try to distil the wisdom from this advice rather than sticking to the harshest literal interpretation and you won't go far wrong. As I say, that's a mistake fundamentalists of all sides do - both the pro-religion and the anti-religion. You're probably American so you probably see the worst of fundamentalist Christianity, so it's easy to assume that's the only way to be; Try not to fall into that trap yourself though.

Anyhow, of course people with higher standards are going to fall short more often than people with lower standards - and that's true whether the standards are derived from a religious text, deep study of a philosophical school of thought, or just inherited from your parents. That doesn't mean high standards are wrong though, and nor does it mean the people following them 'don't really believe in them'. It just means 'life is hard!'

(Some more general advice for when interpreting religious texts: Either God is loving and kind (and so if the interpretation you're making is something that doesn't make sense for a loving, kind God to say/do, then your interpretation is wrong) or God is not loving and kind - in which case we're all screwed anyway - or there's no God in which case who cares. So if you're going to make an interpretation in order to live your own life (rather than just arguing a point on a message board), make the one that best fits the narrative of a loving and kind God)

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:17 am UTC

elasto wrote:Wealth is a danger for sure. Just like power corrupts, wealth can corrupt. That's what that passage warns against. But that doesn't mean wealth is intrinsically immoral any more than power is intrinsically immoral. That interpretation makes no sense.


In the context of a universe where we have a brief, finite amount of time here, and infinite eternal bliss/punishment thereafter, I'm tempted to say that it makes perfect sense. Christians aren't called to be in positions of power any more than they are called to wealth--in both cases, quite the opposite, and there are many, many rather stern warnings about the latter. The fact that life here is short and finite and heaven/hell is eternal is, IMHO, actually one of the bigger flaws in the whole Christian framework. There are many problems that arise with taking this scenario to its logical conclusions.

Seven day weeks on a permanent basis - as in no time off ever? Surely you exaggerate. As a one-off basis or on a temporary basis, sure, nothing wrong with a bit of overtime as the lesser of two evils. The Sabbath for made to serve man, not man the Sabbath, remember, and that includes needing to work.

But even those who are unable to find any time off still surely agree that having at least one day off a week is wise. And that's all this advice is saying. Do you disagree with it?


I agree that having time off is wise. I don't think that is at all, in context, what this is saying.

Respect doesn't mean slavish obedience. You can question or even disobey but do it respectfully. There's no escaping that learning to grow apart is going to involve conflict and friction and tempers will sometimes get lost. The wise teenager will try to keep his parents on side though. Do you really disagree?


Depends on the parents? My wife does some work with children from very, very troubled homes. She's heard stories of parents doing things to their children that would break your heart. Some people aren't worthy of respect, parents or not.

You're taking those statements too literally. Unfortunately many religious people read their texts too literally too, so it's a common mistake.


There is nothing in the context to suggest that these statements are not meant to be taken literally.

And? Divorce is bad (do you disagree?), but often staying together would be worse (do you disagree?). Don't condemn people for choosing the lesser of two evils, that makes no sense, and any interpretation of the texts that would say that makes no sense either.


I don't condemn people for acting in their own interests. I just find it ironic that their holy book tells that not to.

'Not coveting things belonging to other people' does not equate to 'not coveting things'. I can want a glass of water in general without having to want to take the glass of water you're drinking. I can want to own a car without wanting to take your car.


Coveting is the basis of how a capitalistic society functions. As I noted above, the Bible is quite forceful in its condemnation of accumulating wealth:
1 Timothy 6:6-10 wrote:Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.


Honestly, this is all pretty common sense. Basically, try to distil the wisdom from this advice rather than sticking to the harshest literal interpretation and you won't go far wrong. As I say, that's a mistake fundamentalists of all sides do - both the pro-religion and the anti-religion. You're probably American so you probably see the worst of fundamentalist Christianity, so it's easy to assume that's the only way to be; Try not to fall into that trap yourself though.


So you're saying that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect? That they aren't God's laws anymore, but God's advice? I'm not American, btw., but I've had interactions with Christians of all stripes. What is interesting to me is that the less fundamentalist a Christian is, the more cognitive dissonance is required to actually maintain that the Bible is in fact a representative moral guidebook or divinely authored.

(Some more general advice for when interpreting religious texts: Either God is loving and kind (and so if the interpretation you're making is something that doesn't make sense for a loving, kind God to say/do, then your interpretation is wrong) or God is not loving and kind - in which case we're all screwed anyway - or there's no God in which case who cares. So if you're going to make an interpretation in order to live your own life (rather than just arguing a point on a message board), make the one that best fits the narrative of a loving and kind God)


Twisting the evidence to fit your own a priori interpretation of the facts is not generally a good way to figure out whether or not something is true. If I don't know whether God is loving or not, or even exists or not, then it hardly makes sense for me to read the text assuming that those things are true. Why would I? I'd prefer to read the text on its own merits.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

Of course if you were a God who had to deal with humans over long spans of time as they evolved both culturally as well as ethically, wouldn't you write a book that would be able to be interpreted by each generation within their own matrix. So not producing offspring when the infant death rates as well as death due to all causes were high would be a bad strategy, whereas you might reasonably expect that an ethically well developed type might realize that exhortations to to multiply and replenish might later be able to be connected to other ideas like, moderation. The failure than would be of the people not the book. Of course the bible is fiction but just saying.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby jseah » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:10 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Of course if you were a God who had to deal with humans over long spans of time as they evolved both culturally as well as ethically, wouldn't you write a book that would be able to be interpreted by each generation within their own matrix.

You would write more than one book. With date ranges that the books would be valid within.
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby qetzal » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

Or else, being God and omnipotent and all, you might choose a more convincing way to interact with people in every time period, so that they'd actually have a good reason to believe in you and understand what you want.

IOW, you wouldn't write one book, one time, that was full of apparent contradictions, and expect fallible humans to understand what the h*ll you wanted from them.

Unless, of course, you don't actually want people to have a good reason to believe in you and understand what you want. (Or you're not so omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent after all.)

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

The obvious point was to show that a plausible narrative is constructable given the desire to do so.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby qetzal » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:59 am UTC

The idea that an omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent god would choose to create a book as flawed as the Bible to be his primary means of communicating with his cherished humans - that strikes you as plausible? Possible, perhaps. But not plausible.

If it were plausible, it wouldn't be necessary for defenders to go through such mental and verbal gymnastics to explain and excuse all the problems with the Bible. Maybe a day means an age. Maybe the vicious commands in the OT don't apply any more. Maybe we're just not capable of understanding. God's plan is mysterious.

If you mean that people can construct narratives to justify what they've already decided to believe, I agree. That doesn't mean such narratives are plausible.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:14 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Question for those more familiar with all the strands of Christianity:

I know that lots of Christian sects believe that Jesus "fulfilled" the old law and that it no longer applies. Are there any sects that outright condemn the Old Testament laws as being unjust and oppressive?

Why?
Why did you ask that Question?

It is a Stupid Question.
If you want to Know about Christian Theology
Then, Study that stuff!

That is a Troll's Question?
Fine. Every Forum needs Trolls.

It says Religion Up There. See it?
Are you able to write an intelligent question about Religion that is Not about The Sons of Abraham?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby zmic » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:35 am UTC

If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby Soralin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:24 am UTC

zmic wrote:If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.

Not necessarily. A totalitarian theocracy that imposed horrible arbitrary rules on everyone, and did horrible things to them, where people died all the time from disease and starvation, and where everyone who does not obey their rulers' whims completely is imprisoned and tortured, would still be possible without anyone violating any of the 10 commandments.

It's definitely possible to have worlds where everyone followed the 10 commandments, that are worse than this one.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby yurell » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:01 am UTC

zmic wrote:If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.


How is that 'not bad'? It wastes so many spots on the Top Ten List with useless instructions (1. Tells you to worship the God of bringing-people-out-of-Egypt, 2. forbids specific works of arts, 3. stops people from cussing using a particular word, and 10. tells you not to want other people's things — that's 40% of the available slots wasted), and one that requires everyone take the same day off simultaneously, so sorry if you're having a heart attack, doctors can't work! Sorry if your house is burning down, firepeople can't work! That would be awful for society. I would also challenge as to why 7. would help benefit society at all, and why 5. should be considered important — surely those worthy of honour deserve honour for their actions, not because of whose genetic code is used in one's own construction?

That's 70% of the Ten Commandments (more if you go by word count) that are unnecessary and take the position of much more worthy ideals (like 'thou shalt not rape', or 'thou shalt not discriminate based on race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, romantic orientation etc.'), and the remaining 30% (not murdering, not stealing, not bearing false witness) are pretty much necessary to have a society of any cohesion anyway — those commandments are basically hard-built into social groups of basically any social mammal. Sure, not everyone follows them, and the world would be better, but to give a three thousand year old text credit for something that was built into societies that predate the text is pretty ridiculous.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:39 am UTC

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/05/59135.htm

Well? If you can't beat 'em; Join 'em.

Criss-Cross apple sauce?
You want to Keep arguing the 10?
Why? If you can memorize them, Good On You.

Now; There are Other things to do and Think about.
Do You Really Need that 10? Bothersome to you?

How about the Three?
Be Obvious.
Be Simple.
Be Elegant.

Give unto Cesar. You can kill and eat other people in pretend.
It is against the Law in many counties to do it For Real.

Some people. Some people do. Some people do not.
If you are Simple and Obvious someone might stop you before you reach your own standards for Elegance.

What do You think Elegance is?
Yoga? Is it funny?

Quit picking on Abraham!
There are Other Religions.
Some of Them Worse! Can You Imagine it?

Some of Them Better. Imagine That!
Let's Mix Them! Stone Soup!

What did you bring? From your innocence, what do you have left? Anything?
Remember Innocence? The Ten? When did you Learn them?

What did you know before The Ten? Anything?
I have explained some Christian stuff to people that had never heard any of the Stories.

No! Not people from The Moon. American. US born and Raised.
She had never heard any of Those things. Sometimes she is a he.

Thinking a bit might be nice. I had known, a long time.
I was introduced to the idea when I was Young.

I did not Like it Either.

She did not like it. She was an adult.
I did not like it. I was a child.

Did you like the idea? How did your mind Slam Shut on this One Religion?

It is an Interesting One. Like Oncology is interesting. Arthroscopy is interesting, too.
It is One of Many. It is not nice to Only Know about One. Few lives hang in The Balance.

Is it more dangerous for All if you Don't know Anything about Anything that is Not Your Speciality?
Religion does not matter? Religion is for people that do not Know how to Live? Do you Practice your Speciality?

Well? Get us out of this Tunnel!
Let's head out through Plato's Cave.

Plato's Cave is Jr. High Reading?
I did not read it until I was an Adult.

The English translation is small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
yuck. The wiki is Great. Somethings need to be Read, before they are read about, so much.
Plato's Cave is a Shadow on Our Collective Wall. Or; Should Be.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html
That may turn out to be good enough.
The internet is different from the way I would read.

Books are better in Some ways. Worse in many more.

Let me Know when we get Out of The Cave.
Do you have a number on That Document?

How many years between the Birth of Brother Socrates and Father Abraham?
We Need a Number? The Ten Commandments is Not the Correct Number.

Spoiler:
fucking 10 commandments are not even a challenge.
Some people can break all ten before Lunch.
Other people can get it done before getting out of bed.

Still others don't know and don't care.
Do you really need The Ten?!

Out of The Cave and Into The Light!

When you get out of the Cave, let me know.
There is some very cool stuff out there.

Don't worry. It is ok. What happens when you read and contemplate The Cave is Well Described by Joe Campbell.
He may have been smart, too.
He is every bit as dead as Plato.

Or; Is he?
Plato if he existed, died 5K years ago.
Joe Campbell died...it seems like yesterday.
He is recorded. We can watch him speak in English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

Those Two Men. Plato and Campbell have helped to guide us.
Campbell was such a nice man. What has The World done with his Message?

He often Spoke to the Universal Experience.
He was describing, because that is what Science does.
Even when the Science is Squishy like Psychology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

At the End of The Day.
We will have many Heroes.

We will have Some that are not.
just not. The Anti-Heroes had a place in Campbell's work.

Star Wars! It was such a Classic.
What parts must every hero's story contain?
Details and Details and more Details.
The basic Story remains the same.

Did you read Campbell or did you watch the You Tube or did you Watch Star Wars, Five Times?
It is a Classic. Now!

Imagine a Child watching that.
He identifies with The Chewy.

The Young men identify with The Pilots.
The women are given few Choices.
There are women and they have some depth within the conditions of The Story.

The Adult that has grown up with the movie Star Wars
Stands in his Own Home watching his Son watching Star Wars.

He sees Darth Vader in a New Light.
What Happens to the Father Son Relationship?
That is funny, stuff.

What?
Is it so surprising that a Psychologist, like Campbell would want to inspire deep and somewhat uncomfortable conversations?

You don't read what I write.
You most certainly are not going to give Campbell and Plato a Shot.

Do you remember how we named Psychology?
Do you remember what we named it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#Etymology

The Study of The Soul. So, Dreamy.

Defend your soul? From who?
Lose your mind? Where?

Those are Questions we have been working on sense before we came out of The Real Caves.
Not all Human Tribes lived in Caves.

I was told Lascaux Cave is a Church.
THAT is an old church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting


I must like to Write.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:49 am UTC

For what it's worth, here's the court order quoted in that article.
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:08 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:For what it's worth, here's the court order quoted in that article.


".........there are moral teachings which are universal...."
John S. Meyer wrote that? Good.

What do You think?
Are there Moral Teachings?
Are the Moral Teachings Universal?

Spoiler:
My guess is, Yes.

How Universal?
How Universal is Language?

Do you know about Some of the Fucked Up things we have done?
I did not do it and I get scared thinking about Who did.
Still; We had some Data, Somewhere, Somewhen.

People Learn Language.
People Learn how to use Chop Sticks.

It comes more Natural to Some than to Others.
Have you ever Noticed That?

The first time I held a pair of chop sticks in my hand They didn't work.
So, funny. You?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

addams wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Question for those more familiar with all the strands of Christianity:

I know that lots of Christian sects believe that Jesus "fulfilled" the old law and that it no longer applies. Are there any sects that outright condemn the Old Testament laws as being unjust and oppressive?

Why?
Why did you ask that Question?

It is a Stupid Question.
If you want to Know about Christian Theology
Then, Study that stuff!

That is a Troll's Question?
Fine. Every Forum needs Trolls.

It says Religion Up There. See it?
Are you able to write an intelligent question about Religion that is Not about The Sons of Abraham?


Stones and glass houses. I'd think about those things before questioning anyone's ability to ask intelligent questions.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

Have you ever Noticed;

Religion is a Luxury in Good Times.
Religion is a Necessity in Bad Times.

Yes. I think I noticed that.
I listened to a Man on a Screen explain it.

The Man? Bill Muher?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvpnSKCQ0gk
That is a beautiful Old Song. It is a song for voices to share.

The words? ech. Just Sing.
What a Ding-Dong. Billy knew the words.

It is sometimes Obvious; Sometimes.

What? Is it The Wrong Religion or The Wrong Church?
The Man is Asking the Wrong Questions.

That is Beside The Point. eeewww. (?)

Spoiler:
Church Ladies! Where are The Church Ladies?

Men. (Types sad :cry: )
What kind of a Church was that?

It was an All Man's Glee Club. :roll:
That is a very special little group, Isn't it?

How comfortable would a Woman be in That Group?
I know that I would have been about as comfortable as Billy Boy there was.

Billy Boy could talk Big.
He had Back Up.

The Cameras were Rolling and the Intellectual Bully was picking on People smaller than he is for Our Entertainment?
Yes. And; For Our Enlightenment. What did we Learn? Would I have watched a boring BBC documentary on Modern American Religion?

Yes. I did. BBC made one. It was good. It was a little boring.
ech. You know the BBC all Respectful or Something.

My Questions are never so Technical.
In the search for Truth and Meaning some people Run into that Woman with The Snakes in her Hair.
---!!And;! They Like it!--- Let those people do as they please.

It is not my Religion.
How do I know? Easy. No Church Ladies.

I Just made up my Mind.
As I was Writing this post.
My Religion has Church Ladies.

In The Clip, that man that Stormed Out.
In My World that man might Pick Bill Up.

Have you ever had a big man get mad at You?
Well, Honey; Was it Something I said?

Is that Funny? Is that Religion?
What is Religion?


Atheism is a Religion too.
It is very Strict. And; Evangelical.

It is best to Go Along to Get Along with the Atheists.
Besides; When asked what I am Looking At I usually can come up with some other Word than God.

God is a darned good answer with some believers and one that will get a person Yelled at with a different group.
Ask them what God looks like. What do you get? Angry People?

Hindus don't do that. Right?

The question, "What does God Look like?"
Is answered by the Question, 'Which One?'

Is that correct? What do Hindus Do?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

An Enlightenment. Do you believe in Enlightenment?

I hear some people go to Church before their Enlightenment and then Stop.
Some people don't go to Church before their Enlightenment and then Start.
Some people never go to Church and are Enlightened.

What do you Think?
Fun with The Ten Fetters.
Go!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)#Lists_of_fetters
What one Do You have problems with?

None? Are You Enlightened?
Is that funny?

If they ask you, "Say, Yes."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zesHZze8s7M

Reality is not strange enough? We need Supernatural Stuff?
Why!?

We Humans bore easy? Religion is Boring.
Not if You do it Wrong!
Spoiler:
What did that Guy do Wrong?

How would things have turned out if He had lied to Her?

That is not what happened. In the Movie he lived.
It was a sweet Film.


Is that what Religion is for?

To keep things Boring? If you do it Right?
I don't know. Do You?

Religion can be so Weird. Do we Really Need Ghosts?
Spoiler:
When all that Police and other Weird stuff was happening at my House in Oregon;
I knew a guy that said, "I am a Scientist." Flat out.

Then on a Different Day, He said, "I think your house is Haunted."
He was serious both Times. That stuff cracks me Up.

I thought I might use it in Advertising. "Come on By. We may be Haunted."

The House was Not Haunted. was it? I thought it was People.
I thought it was Not Nice People. Yes. It could have been a Poltergeist.

Things were only moved when I was Gone.
I did not see anything move that did not have a Human or a Dog attached to it.

I did lock my doors Religiously.
The Police would ask, "Were All the Doors locked?"
If the answer was, "Yes." They would take a note.
If the answer was, "No." They would not take a note.

That was for the Car, too.
Besides; I had a Business in My House.
How stupid it That?

I did not worry about things being moved.
I was used to it. Nice people move things!

The Globe will start in the Dining Room; And; Who Knows where it will End Up?

But; I did not have any Guests. The City had sued me and shut my business down.
The charge was a Minor Web Site issue. It was considered part of the Land Use Codes.

It was enough to Shut me Down. If a person came to visit, I got a visit from The Police.
When we went to lunch, the House got a visit from Someone!

Haunted? Sure.
nah. He believed it.
He was Scared.
He said he was a Scientist.

All of That is Funny.

I did not believe my house was Haunted.
I was Scared.
I did not Say I am a Scientist.
I was, just, attempting to Think like one.

Some of it was Not Funny.


Hey! Still no Religion? Why?

There are so many to choose from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHoXr7Gzq9g

Sure. It may be a big bad Lie.
Still; A Marthcing Song comes in Handy.

Those girls can do That and Work.
Cute? What kind of Work?

Set the table. Unpack the Camping Gear.
Who is going to Light The Fire?

Together The Chalice is Lit by The Youngest with The Help of The Oldest.
Who is Helping Who?

Everyone else is Watching.
Sometimes quietly.
Some people Snicker.

There is a very fine line between a snicker and a giggle.
Giggles are contagious. Snickers not so much.

It is best not to giggle during The Service.
Some of us want to declare the following "Light The Candle! already! It's Dark!"

In some Religious families the Chalice must be lit before other candles can be lit or Flashlights Used.
No. There is no punishment for using Light. Turn it off during the service, Please.

How long can it take for Two People to walk to the Chalice with Candles in Wind Proof holders and Light the Chalice.

Spoiler:
What?! No. No. What?!
I have to Make The Fire in Front of Everyone?
How am I supposed to See to get to The Chalice if I don't have a lit Candle?!

See by The Glow of The Moon? Sure. If it is a full Moon.
New Moon is Different and Rain is Different.


Do those people Really go Camping? Is it always Sweetness and Light?

What do we know about Those People?
They left some music behind.
Like an Echo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRrzpHpwkm0
Everyone is told Fairy Tails.
I was told that is one of Our Oldest Songs.

It has been Transmitted Through Time.
What were you told?

Spoiler:
Every Child is Special.
A man asked me what my Favorite Song was.
I said, "Greensleeves." It was Popular with Many.

He said it was an Old Song. He went on to say many Complimentary things about Greensleeves.
He said it was Old.

I still Liked it. You?
It is like Religion.

That song is like Fingernails on Blackboard to some people.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:58 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Of course if you were a God who had to deal with humans over long spans of time as they evolved both culturally as well as ethically, wouldn't you write a book that would be able to be interpreted by each generation within their own matrix.

You would write more than one book. With date ranges that the books would be valid within.


Um God didn't write the bible. I dont' say that as an aethisit( I am one), I mean he really didn't write it. It was written by MEN and supposedly inspired by God.
Its not some book he presented to men, they just jotted down the teachings they knew.

So I don't understand that line of thinking.
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby DSenette » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:05 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
jseah wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Of course if you were a God who had to deal with humans over long spans of time as they evolved both culturally as well as ethically, wouldn't you write a book that would be able to be interpreted by each generation within their own matrix.

You would write more than one book. With date ranges that the books would be valid within.


Um God didn't write the bible. I dont' say that as an aethisit( I am one), I mean he really didn't write it. It was written by MEN and supposedly inspired by God.
Its not some book he presented to men, they just jotted down the teachings they knew.

So I don't understand that line of thinking.

the line of thinking comes from the general claim (Christian and jewish mostly) that the bible is the word of god. which is typically believed to have been written by direct divine revelation....not just your average inspiration like a novel
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:18 pm UTC

My understanding is that relatively few Christians believe that God gave a precise word-for-word formulation of the Biblical texts. Wiki
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:22 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
jseah wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Of course if you were a God who had to deal with humans over long spans of time as they evolved both culturally as well as ethically, wouldn't you write a book that would be able to be interpreted by each generation within their own matrix.

You would write more than one book. With date ranges that the books would be valid within.


Um God didn't write the bible. I dont' say that as an aethisit( I am one), I mean he really didn't write it. It was written by MEN and supposedly inspired by God.
Its not some book he presented to men, they just jotted down the teachings they knew.

So I don't understand that line of thinking.

Amen.

There are many Inspired Works.
Some better than Others.

I like Ghost Busters.
I don't want to Live in That World.
Do you? Scientists and The Paranormal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyRqR56aCKc

That is funny stuff. I talk to people Of Faith.
Over and Over they tell be about Evil.
Over and Over I try to Understand it.

I am getting there. Maybe, Never.
Evil? The Devil? One Guy?

One Guy, the Devil, with a bunch of Friends.
The friends are called demons.
The Humans that are friends of the Devil or Friends of the demons are All on One Side.

One Guy, God, with a bunch of Friends.
The friends are called Angels.
The Humans that are friends of God or Friends of the Angels are All on One Side.

There are Two Teams.
God vs The Devil

It is an Idea that Showed Up in a Hindu Bass Relief from Long Time Ago.
The Number was impressive. They have a bunch of Old Stuff.
This Bass Relief was Kept Indoors. It has Aged Well.

The Photons from the Camera did not hurt it.
One One side are Good Gods.
On The Other side are The Horribles.

They are Playing Tug Of War with a Rope.
That is a fun Game.

The Gods Looked like they were having Fun.
The Horribles were In Fighting and Pulling the Rope and Walking on One Another.
There were a Whole Lot of Them, too.

Who will win? No One.

It is an Imaginary moment caught in Stone.
It is, just, a provocative piece of Art!

It is Not, just, christians and Not, just, Hindus.

It is Just Me. I am the Only One that did not have a place for Evil.
Well? A little. What was I told Evil was?

Gossip is Evil. Everyone is a Sinner.
What did you hear? Did you see it, too?
Did you touch it? Well?

Gossip is Fun!
If God did not want us to do it,
God would not have made it so much fun.

Like Sex? Like Sex.
Not all Gossip is Equal.
Not all Sex is Equal.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:35 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My understanding is that relatively few Christians believe that God gave a precise word-for-word formulation of the Biblical texts. Wiki

My understanding is that these kinds of beliefs vary depending on the strength of the church. That's why you get the "no abortions for anyone" in South America vs the Abortions for all but shame on you in North America.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:08 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My understanding is that relatively few Christians believe that God gave a precise word-for-word formulation of the Biblical texts. Wiki
Which is why Christians can make it say just about whatever they want. You can believe that any error was a error of interpretation or whatever. Pick your poison. Fundamentally this is a problem of language. We are born to lie. The Christians I have had the pleasure of knowing seem to not really understand the Bible as a gestalt. They get out of what they want to get out of it. Were that not the case you wouldn't need Bible scholars to debate sin and you wouldn't need ministers to guide the flock, or whatever the current euphemism is. It is also not a special function of Religion. Almost anything not driven by hard facts is subject to it. And very few fields lie in that realm. Just saying.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby addams » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:08 am UTC

Leave it Far behind.
Those nasty christians can't get you here.

http://www.dailyafflictions.com/aboutthebook.html

Here! Afflictions for The Day.
http://www.dailyafflictions.com/readthebook.html

You don't believe! That IS Wonderful!
One Less Thing. As Forest Gump said.

Now; One More Thing.
Where do you stand on Whitingstien?
Me? Nope.
Darned.

We can still meet on The Forum.
God? Leave God out of This.
We are Busy!

Thinking and Not Thinking.
What are You not Thinking about?

Have you ever Read a Book?
I did. One was such a funny book.

Not all of it was Funny.
Ram Das. He changed his name from Tom.

He wrote a book Titled: The Only Dance There Is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFx2bcG04UQ

He was Not Thinking about a Root Beer Float.
How could a Root Beer Float be so much trouble?

He was doing one of the Buddhist Retreats.
He was Not Thinking several Hours each Day.

So, Funny. I don't remember. Did you read it?
How was that First Root Beer Float, after?

I think he got around to having one when he returned to Civilization.
When was the Last Time you saw him? I did not speak to him. You?

He had a Stroke of Insight. I know. I know. It's not nice.
But; He started it! He was driving at the time.

Driving a Sports Car. The World Lay at his Feet.
It still does. Did he ever Walk, again?
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Everyone ages or Dies. No photos with The Wheel Chair.
Richard Cheney had a wheel Chair. Ram Das had a Wheel Chair.

They are The Same Guy! How could you tell them apart?
They are both White. They are both old as dirt.
They both have a Wheel Chair. Same. Same Guy.

Now that we have That Settled.
Daily Afflictions. That one is funny, too.

You will not be bothered by Abrahamic Traditions like the Ten Commandments.
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Have you finished The Reading? When did Nietzsche start making sense?
The God is Dead, thing sure gets passed around and misunderstood.

I understand it. Do you?
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:23 am UTC

sardia wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My understanding is that relatively few Christians believe that God gave a precise word-for-word formulation of the Biblical texts. Wiki

My understanding is that these kinds of beliefs vary depending on the strength of the church. That's why you get the "no abortions for anyone" in South America vs the Abortions for all but shame on you in North America.

I don't know what "the church" you are talking about. There are various Christian groups with various amounts of power in various places, and they tend to disagree about all sorts of things - which is why they are different groups.
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby Trebla » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:18 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
sardia wrote:My understanding is that these kinds of beliefs vary depending on the strength of the church. That's why you get the "no abortions for anyone" in South America vs the Abortions for all but shame on you in North America.

I don't know what "the church" you are talking about. There are various Christian groups with various amounts of power in various places, and they tend to disagree about all sorts of things - which is why they are different groups.


I think he means an individual church (e.g., building/congregation) rather than a larger organization (e.g., Baptist or Catholic). For instance, a friend of mine's "church" generally holds the belief that the text is infallible. Though written by men, it was persisted by God and "He wouldn't allow inaccuracies to persist." I'm probably very poorly representing any nuances in her belief, but it's along those lines. I don't know how much of that is the dogma of her specific church and how much is her personal understanding either.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby DSenette » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:49 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My understanding is that relatively few Christians believe that God gave a precise word-for-word formulation of the Biblical texts. Wiki

in my experience, this "belief" depends on what the Christian in particular is trying to use the bible for at any given moment.

like....when you mention to a Baptist with a beer in their hand the bit of the bible that mentions they shouldn't be drinking said beer they'll often reply with something about the fallibility of man interpreting the words of god....but that same Baptist might be inclined to stick quite directly to a bible verse that say....condemns homosexuality as the direct word and will of god.

of course, then you get down to catholics....the doctrine is that the bible is quite literally the word of god. it's in the liturgy.
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:11 pm UTC

zmic wrote:If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.
This raises an interesting (to me!) question; is the prominence of the 10 commandments in our current (US, Western) culture a product of their importance historically, or a product of their relevance now?

Maybe the reason the 10 commandments are so popular now is because they're easy, compact, and not very hard to follow. I mean, nobody follows Leviticus anymore (unless you're interpreting it to prohibit same sex or something). Is the popularity of the 10 commandments a 'recent' (past two or three hundred years) phenomenon?

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
zmic wrote:If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.


How is that 'not bad'? It wastes so many spots on the Top Ten List with useless instructions (1. Tells you to worship the God of bringing-people-out-of-Egypt, 2. forbids specific works of arts, 3. stops people from cussing using a particular word, and 10. tells you not to want other people's things — that's 40% of the available slots wasted), and one that requires everyone take the same day off simultaneously, so sorry if you're having a heart attack, doctors can't work! Sorry if your house is burning down, firepeople can't work! That would be awful for society. I would also challenge as to why 7. would help benefit society at all, and why 5. should be considered important — surely those worthy of honour deserve honour for their actions, not because of whose genetic code is used in one's own construction?

You don't really believe that's what those commandments mean, do you?

That's 70% of the Ten Commandments (more if you go by word count) that are unnecessary and take the position of much more worthy ideals (like 'thou shalt not rape', or 'thou shalt not discriminate based on race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, romantic orientation etc.'), and the remaining 30% (not murdering, not stealing, not bearing false witness) are pretty much necessary to have a society of any cohesion anyway — those commandments are basically hard-built into social groups of basically any social mammal. Sure, not everyone follows them, and the world would be better, but to give a three thousand year old text credit for something that was built into societies that predate the text is pretty ridiculous.

You are aware that the commandments are followed by an entire book dedicated to laying down such laws?
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby DSenette » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:50 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
yurell wrote:
zmic wrote:If everyone followed the 10 commandments, this planet would actually be a pretty nice place. That's not bad for a 3000 year old text.


How is that 'not bad'? It wastes so many spots on the Top Ten List with useless instructions (1. Tells you to worship the God of bringing-people-out-of-Egypt, 2. forbids specific works of arts, 3. stops people from cussing using a particular word, and 10. tells you not to want other people's things — that's 40% of the available slots wasted), and one that requires everyone take the same day off simultaneously, so sorry if you're having a heart attack, doctors can't work! Sorry if your house is burning down, firepeople can't work! That would be awful for society. I would also challenge as to why 7. would help benefit society at all, and why 5. should be considered important — surely those worthy of honour deserve honour for their actions, not because of whose genetic code is used in one's own construction?

You don't really believe that's what those commandments mean, do you?

That's 70% of the Ten Commandments (more if you go by word count) that are unnecessary and take the position of much more worthy ideals (like 'thou shalt not rape', or 'thou shalt not discriminate based on race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, romantic orientation etc.'), and the remaining 30% (not murdering, not stealing, not bearing false witness) are pretty much necessary to have a society of any cohesion anyway — those commandments are basically hard-built into social groups of basically any social mammal. Sure, not everyone follows them, and the world would be better, but to give a three thousand year old text credit for something that was built into societies that predate the text is pretty ridiculous.

You are aware that the commandments are followed by an entire book dedicated to laying down such laws?

find me the part of the bible that actually condemns rape instead of condoning it

or you know the part that says slavery is a bad thing

or the part that is about NOT being racist

or the part where god tells everyone that women aren't property and should be treated as equals.

i'll wait
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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:You are aware that the commandments are followed by an entire book dedicated to laying down such laws?


And modern Christians (and Jews) have, to their credit, recognized that the vast, vast majority of these laws are bullshit and have thrown them away. Yet they continue to have a weird attachment to these specific laws, even though there's no evidence in the Bible that these specific laws are any more important than any others laid out in subsequent pages. The term "The Ten Commandments" does not actually appear anywhere in the text. There is "the law of Moses", but that includes much more than the Ten Commandments.

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Re: Religion: The Deuce

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:find me the part of the bible that actually condemns rape instead of condoning it

In that it lays it out as a crime with specific penalties, Deuteronomy 22. It is a crime worthy of the death penalty.

or you know the part that says slavery is a bad thing

In that the passage is primarily talking about indentured servitude which is entered into willingly and involves a contract, rather than "I own you and your entire line", Deuteronomy.

To be fair, prisoners-of-war slaves did operate under the "in perpetuity" method, excluding IIRC Jubilee and abuse.

or the part that is about NOT being racist

Parable of the Good Samaritan.

or the part where god tells everyone that women aren't property and should be treated as equals.

Any time Jesus treated his female disciples as honored, like when he reappeared to them before anyone else.

In the Old Testament, yes, they were often viewed as property because it was a shitty environment and people had to make shitty decisions to survive.

LaserGuy wrote:And modern Christians (and Jews) have, to their credit, recognized that the vast, vast majority of these laws are bullshit and have thrown them away.

Or they recognize that a lot of them were laid out for a specific context which is no longer relevant, as explained in the text and associated rabinical writings?

Yet they continue to have a weird attachment to these specific laws, even though there's no evidence in the Bible that these specific laws are any more important than any others laid out in subsequent pages. The term "The Ten Commandments" does not actually appear anywhere in the text. There is "the law of Moses", but that includes much more than the Ten Commandments.

Because the number is mainly an issue of how scribes chose to arrange them. They're just the commandments, and Jesus references them when he summarizes them down to two.

Yet they continue to have a weird attachment to these specific laws, even though there's no evidence in the Bible that these specific laws are any more important than any others laid out in subsequent pages.

Again: This is a joke, right?

Besides, if it's a choice between a secular academic interpretation arrived at solely by a read through of the modern text, and the practical interpretation historically demonstrated by the culture living with the physical and historical context of the text, pick the second. The idea that the Bible means anything useful completely on its own, cut off from the context that the text even points at is a foolish mindset of certain modern sects, and shouldn't be respected.
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