IRL racial stereotypes in fantasy setting?

[gmalivuk]

Also though, I'm not convinced that all stereotypes are explicitly bad either.

Of course they're not all *explicitly* bad. But that doesn't mean the other ones are benign, either. "Asians are good at math" might be a superficially positive stereotype, but it's still harmful to, say, any Asian who isn't good at math or who doesn't like math, or who simply doesn't want American stereotypes dictating the expectations people have about Asians.

Similarly, there's a lot of valid criticism of how much Native culture has been co-opted by the environmental movement and used for that movement's own ends. Whether you're putting someone else above or below the rest of us, it's still dehumanizing.

[JudeMorrigan]

Oh, and the goblins in WoW are clearly Ferengi so the Jew theory is right out.

This is intended as irony, right? It's not hard to find people who complain about Ferengi being offensive jewish stereotypes.

[HungryHobo]

But that doesn't mean the other ones are benign, either. "Asians are good at math" might be a superficially positive stereotype, but it's still harmful to, say, any Asian who isn't good at math or who doesn't like math, or who simply doesn't want American stereotypes dictating the expectations people have about Asians.

As someone who's irish I don't see how the stereotype that irish people can hold their drink negatively effects those who cannot.

stereotyping is something humans do at every level, the people from that school are all posers, people who dress like that are all convinced they can dance but really can't, the people from that state are all texan etc.
it's in no way limited to particular races.

so where does the harm end?
which groups should be protected from being stereotyped and which should not?
if you lift the "preppy" stereotype or the "absent-minded academic"stereotype or the "conspiracy nut" stereotype for a story or game do you harm rich kids who don't conform to the stereotype? how about academics who are not absent-minded at all? or people who believe in lots of conspiracies but who don't wear a tinfoil hat and who don't refuse to be on any government lists or registries?

[Azrael]

As someone who's irish I don't see how the stereotype that irish people can hold their drink negatively effects those who cannot.

I'm not sure where you've been, but the stereotype is that the Irish are drunks. That they drink too much, not that they have high tolerance.

There's a bit of a difference between the two, the the former is certainly negative.[/quote]

[HungryHobo]

That they drink too much, not that they have high tolerance.

There's a bit of a difference between the two, the the former is certainly negative.

There's a grain of truth to that one at least even if it is negative.
We have a terrible drink culture here.

[Kewangji]

People from Texas being Texan isn't a stereotype, it's a descriptor. Texans being stupid is a stereotype, and a hurtful one. Helpful for organizing things in your head maybe, but not helpful for making the world a better place. (Or for having an accurate view of the world).

[podbaydoor]

@HungryHobo: of course, we all stereotype because that's how we organize things mentally. But the point is to recognize when you're using stereotypes, harmful or not, and remember at all times that it's probably insulting to treat an individual as a stereotype when you meet them.

[The Great Hippo]

And I can see the Tauren == Native American thing (Lots of totem poles, the names of their tribes... okay, I see it). However, the next step is to argue that its a bad thing.

Morally or artistically?

Artistically, it's relying on cliches to make connections; good writing means mixing old things into new and interesting things. Slapping horns and hooves on a Native American stereotype is not new or interesting--it's merely adequate. I don't think the creators of the game were ever interested in producing anything beyond an easy-to-digest rehash of old concepts; the bulk of their writers' work consists of producing in-game justifications for out-of-game decisions ("People complain that the Horde is ugly; get our writers to whip up a reason why elves would join them."). Of course, World of Warcraft's success has more to do with its game mechanics than its story; criticizing them for a lack of artistic merit might be unfair--and I don't begrudge them their success. But I'm not going to listen to any nonsense about the Tauren being anything beyond a shallow importation of a cultural cliche.

Morally? I think perpetuating ongoing stereotypes about Native American tribes (particularly untrue ones) outweigh any moral gain (are there moral gains?). Cameron's Avatar engaged in the same nonsense--yet another narrative wherein a group possesses greater spiritual currency because they shoot arrows instead of guns. Not only does it create silly and unreasonable expectations (every Native American is a spiritual 'wise man', every tribe is one of peace), but it's shitty writing to boot.

[General_Norris]

Morally? I think perpetuating ongoing stereotypes about Native American tribes (particularly untrue ones) outweigh any moral gain (are there moral gains?).

But what is "perpetuating ongoing stereotypes"? An easy question, can I have a black person enjoying chicken in my movie? Or can't a black man do that because it's stereotypical? Shouldn't asian peple be geeks?

I don't think it's wrong for a black man to enjoy chicken in a movie. I think it's wrong if the reason he enjoys a chicken is being black.

[The Great Hippo]

But what is "perpetuating ongoing stereotypes"? An easy question, can I have a black person enjoying chicken in my movie? Or can't a black man do that because it's stereotypical? Shouldn't asian peple be geeks?

I don't think it's wrong for a black man to enjoy chicken in a movie. I think it's wrong if the reason he enjoys a chicken is being black.

The specific example I'm citing is a case where the featured target (Tauren) exhibit nothing but behavior we stereotypically assign to Native Americans; that is, there's nothing to Tauren beyond the stereotype. If all the black people in your movie exhibited no characteristics beyond the stereotype we have for black people, I would describe that as 'problematic'--and I think most of us would agree.

There's a bit of elbow room for at what point the characteristics a fictitious person exhibits cross over from just 'another dude enjoying some chicken' to a clear caricature. Some cases are unquestionable (Tauren, for instance); other cases seem more flexible (are WoW goblins a caricature of Jews? Are Drow a caricature of radical feminism?) and open for discussion.

There's also the simple matter of context--why is this dude eating chicken? Is it because chicken is delicious, or is the narrative using the stereotype for a reason? In the Tauren's case, the Native American parallel serves several story functions--it lets the orcs get back to their 'native, shamanistic' roots--also, so the Horde can have a race that doesn't appear, on the surface, to be evil--lending them moral credibility from the spiritual currency we give to the Native American stereotype.

[General_Norris]

The specific example I'm citing is a case where the featured target (Tauren) exhibit nothing but behavior we stereotypically assign to Native Americans; that is, there's nothing to Tauren beyond the stereotype.

May I ask you to list what those behaviours are? I think it will be easier to discuss that way.

It's undeniable that Tauren are a pastiche of several American Indian tribes. What I wonder is if they are any different from the Catholic Pastiche that is the Inquisition in Warhammer 40K, for example.

Do Tauren stereotype Native Americans or do they stereotype Native American culture? What about both or neither? Is one okey and the other wrong?. I think this is something important to discuss.

I would say that Tauren could possibly be stereotyping Native American culture by being a pastiche of it but stereotyping the people I'm not so sure.

[The Great Hippo]

May I ask you to list what those behaviours are? I think it will be easier to discuss that way.

Worship of earth spirits, extolling the value of nature, going on spirit journeys, wearing clothing that's associated with Native American stereotypes, living in buildings that's associated with Native American stereotypes, producing art that's basically just a complete rip off of Native American work...

Do Tauren stereotype Native Americans or do they stereotype Native American culture? What about both or neither? Is one okey and the other wrong?. I think this is something important to discuss.

I'm not seeing the distinction. Can you give me an example of one versus the other?

[General_Norris]

1) Worship of earth spirits,
2) extolling the value of nature,
3) going on spirit journeys,
4) wearing clothing that's associated with Native American stereotypes,
5) living in buildings that's associated with Native American stereotypes,
6) producing art that's basically just a complete rip off of Native American work...

Saying "stereotype" to define what "stereotype" is makes a very bad definition.

"That's associated with Native American stereotypes" is also a very poor reasoning. I would say that tents are associated with Native American stereotypes but they were actually used and part of their culture. So what you should say is "living in buildings that are associated with Native American buildings" in the same way that humans have buildings in pseudogothic style. By the same logic humans wear "stereotypical" medieval armor. By definition a stereotype is a belief ,not a fact. Facts can't be stereotypes.

(Numbered for further convenience)

Do Tauren stereotype Native Americans or do they stereotype Native American culture? What about both or neither? Is one okey and the other wrong?. I think this is something important to discuss.

I'm not seeing the distinction. Can you give me an example of one versus the other?[/quote]
I have to say. You can't stereotype a culture because the word "stereotype" means. That was a mistake of mine.

An example is mocking Disco culture. Disco culture has it's roots on black and gay people. Mocking Disco doesn't mean you are mocking gay people.

I don't see hwo you don't make a distinction. Being Native American (race) doesn't make you culturally Native American (blanket cultural term)

[The Great Hippo]

Saying "stereotype" to define what "stereotype" is makes a very bad definition.

Not in the context that I'm using it in. Saying 'Tauren art resembles stereotypes of Native American art' is not at all unclear. Now, if you're asking me to define stereotypical Native American art, that's another matter.

"That's associated with Native American stereotypes" is also a very poor reasoning. I would say that tents are associated with Native American stereotypes but they were actually used and part of their culture. So what you should say is "living in buildings that are associated with Native American buildings" in the same way that humans have buildings in pseudogothic style. By the same logic humans wear "stereotypical" medieval armor. By definition a stereotype is a belief ,not a fact. Facts can't be stereotypes.

Asians regularly score higher on mathematics tests than average; this is a fact. 'Asians are great at math'; this is a stereotype. Some Native Americans lived in tee-pees; this is a fact. 'Native Americans lived in tee-pees'; this is a stereotype.

Do you understand the distinction?

By the way--one of the reasons this doesn't work is because Native American culture is not monolithic; it's a diverse grouping of tribes and civilizations, many of which contained contradictory values and exhibited contradictory characteristics.

An example is mocking Disco culture. Disco culture has it's roots on black and gay people. Mocking Disco doesn't mean you are mocking gay people.

I don't see hwo you don't make a distinction. Being Native American (race) doesn't make you culturally Native American (blanket cultural term)

I have no idea what you're getting at here.

[KnightExemplar]

"That's associated with Native American stereotypes" is also a very poor reasoning. I would say that tents are associated with Native American stereotypes but they were actually used and part of their culture. So what you should say is "living in buildings that are associated with Native American buildings" in the same way that humans have buildings in pseudogothic style. By the same logic humans wear "stereotypical" medieval armor. By definition a stereotype is a belief ,not a fact. Facts can't be stereotypes.

Asians regularly score higher on mathematics tests than average; this is a fact. 'Asians are great at math'; this is a stereotype. Some Native Americans lived in tee-pees; this is a fact. 'Native Americans lived in tee-pees'; this is a stereotype.

Do you understand the distinction?

By the way--one of the reasons this doesn't work is because Native American culture is not monolithic; it's a diverse grouping of tribes and civilizations, many of which contained contradictory values and exhibited contradictory characteristics.

Indeed. The Sioux, who lived in Teepees and hunted buffalo did not make say... Totem Poles (which are clearly used all over in Tauren art). Totem Poles were more of a phenomenon of the more Western Native Americans (you know... where the Great Redwood Trees are... and still are today) but their culture was radically different from the Sioux. Then you have Powhatan (ie: Pocahantas) lived in log cabins, farmed corn, and worked with early English Colonists. And Cherokee who are known for integrating well during America's expansion (contrary to the "proud warrior" stereotype).

Also, Lewis and Clark's expedition says different things about the Native Americans than we may think...http://www.lewis-clark.org/content/cont ... icleID=441

On May 29, 1805, the day after the midnight visit of the buffalo bull, Lewis documented one of the Indians' means of killing buffalo, sometimes called a buffalo jump, or "pishkun." To modern readers the practice may seem terribly wasteful, but in fact the Indians knew that if any animals escaped, the rest of the buffalo would soon learn to avoid humans, which would make hunting all the harder.

Asians regularly score higher on mathematics tests than average; this is a fact. 'Asians are great at math'; this is a stereotype. Some Native Americans lived in tee-pees; this is a fact. 'Native Americans lived in tee-pees'; this is a stereotype.

Do you understand the distinction?

While the Tauren are inspired from various (and contradictory) Native American tribes, it is hard to say that Blizzard is telling us that "Native Americans act like the Tauren".ACTUAL Native American stereotypes exist. IE: Native Americans are gambling alcholoics. I have encounted these stereotypes in real life. But there's a line between inspiration and stereotypes. Tauren were inspired by the Native American myth. However, Tauren do not stereotype native americans.

Artistically, it's relying on cliches to make connections; good writing means mixing old things into new and interesting things. Slapping horns and hooves on a Native American stereotype is not new or interesting--it's merely adequate. I don't think the creators of the game were ever interested in producing anything beyond an easy-to-digest rehash of old concepts; the bulk of their writers' work consists of producing in-game justifications for out-of-game decisions ("People complain that the Horde is ugly; get our writers to whip up a reason why elves would join them."). Of course, World of Warcraft's success has more to do with its game mechanics than its story; criticizing them for a lack of artistic merit might be unfair--and I don't begrudge them their success. But I'm not going to listen to any nonsense about the Tauren being anything beyond a shallow importation of a cultural cliche.

Morally? I think perpetuating ongoing stereotypes about Native American tribes (particularly untrue ones) outweigh any moral gain (are there moral gains?). Cameron's Avatar engaged in the same nonsense--yet another narrative wherein a group possesses greater spiritual currency because they shoot arrows instead of guns. Not only does it create silly and unreasonable expectations (every Native American is a spiritual 'wise man', every tribe is one of peace), but it's shitty writing to boot.

Morally, I can agree that its preferable not to do this... but its so minor that it barely registers a blip in my conscience. As soon as any person meets a Native American, they'll learn how stupid the stereotype is. I mean, whats the worst that could happen? An awkward conversation? Maybe... the Native American is pressured into dropping technology and living in a tee-pee? </sarcasm> At the end of the day, its just another ignorant myth that is passed around. If I actually cared about every ignorant myth / stereotype that I've ever come across, I'd never get anything done!

Artistically... the use of this stereotype / myth has proven to be effective in communicating an idea to the audience. At the end of the day, that is what art is: a method to communication.

[The Great Hippo]

While the Tauren are inspired from various (and contradictory) Native American tribes, it is hard to say that Blizzard is telling us that "Native Americans act like the Tauren".

ACTUAL Native American stereotypes exist. IE: Native Americans are gambling alcholoics. I have encounted these stereotypes in real life. But there's a line between inspiration and stereotypes. Tauren were inspired by the Native American myth. However, Tauren do not stereotype native americans.

'Inspired by' the Native American myth, or 'completely ripped off of' the Native American myth? The difference between a homage and a copy is that the homage does something interesting and different with the source material.

Anyway, there is no question that the Tauren are just a direct importation of Native American stereotypes (no, they weren't 'inspired' by the diversity of Native American tribes; they were simply copied over from our broadly inaccurate perception of Native American tribes as a single, monolithic whole--i.e., all Native Americans lived in tee-pees, all Native Americans carved totem poles). The question I assume you're asking is whether or not that's a bad thing, or more specifically, whether or not the Tauren themselves stereotype Native American tribes.

I don't know. I know I oppose this sort of thing for the same reason I opposed it in Avatar; it's lazy and it perpetuates the myth of indigenous cultures as having a monopoly on spiritual currency (along with the condescending 'noble savage' BS). I don't know how honestly bad it is; I could at least understand if a Native American found these simplified versions of their cultural iconography to be somewhat disrespectful. I mean, I imagine there's only so many times you can see your culture snatched up and misrepresented by someone else before you start getting irritable about it.

Morally, I can agree that its preferable not to do this... but its so minor that it barely registers a blip in my conscience. As soon as any person meets a Native American, they'll learn how stupid the stereotype is. I mean, whats the worst that could happen? An awkward conversation? Maybe... the Native American is pressured into dropping technology and living in a tee-pee? </sarcasm> At the end of the day, its just another ignorant myth that is passed around. If I actually cared about every ignorant myth / stereotype that I've ever come across, I'd never get anything done!

Like I said, morally it's probably a net loss, not a net gain; how bad it is may be up to interpretation. I find the ongoing myth of the 'noble savage' and of the 'spiritual wonder' of indigenous people to be particularly irritating, largely because it's an example of paternalism--but your mileage may vary. Also, I've encountered these myths quite a number of times.

Artistically... the use of this stereotype / myth has proven to be effective in communicating an idea to the audience. At the end of the day, that is what art is: a method to communication.

The purpose is to communicate the message in a way that is entertaining and interesting. World of Warcraft's story is rarely either.

[KnightExemplar]

While the Tauren are inspired from various (and contradictory) Native American tribes, it is hard to say that Blizzard is telling us that "Native Americans act like the Tauren".

ACTUAL Native American stereotypes exist. IE: Native Americans are gambling alcholoics. I have encounted these stereotypes in real life. But there's a line between inspiration and stereotypes. Tauren were inspired by the Native American myth. However, Tauren do not stereotype native americans.

'Inspired by' the Native American myth, or 'completely ripped off of' the Native American myth? The difference between a homage and a copy is that the homage does something interesting and different with the source material.

Anyway, there is no question that the Tauren are just a direct importation of Native American stereotypes (no, they weren't 'inspired' by the diversity of Native American tribes; they were simply copied over from our broadly inaccurate perception of Native American tribes as a single, monolithic whole--i.e., all Native Americans lived in tee-pees, all Native Americans carved totem poles). The question I assume you're asking is whether or not that's a bad thing, or more specifically, whether or not the Tauren themselves stereotype Native American tribes.

I don't know. I know I oppose this sort of thing for the same reason I opposed it in Avatar; it's lazy and it perpetuates the myth of indigenous cultures as having a monopoly on spiritual currency (along with the condescending 'noble savage' BS). I don't know how honestly bad it is; I could at least understand if a Native American found these simplified versions of their cultural iconography to be somewhat disrespectful. I mean, I imagine there's only so many times you can see your culture snatched up and misrepresented by someone else before you start getting irritable about it.

* I never said the Tauren were a homage to Native Americans. I said they were inspired by the Native American Myth. There's a difference between drawing inspiration from Native American Myths and stereotyping Native Americans. The Former is what Avatar and WoW does. The latter is what John Redcorn from "King of the Hill" does. Its hard for me to even say WoW developers are being ignorant towards Native Americans, because its a video game. Its not a documentary on their life. Now... the stupid environmental things that go on during Captain Planet and Native Americans always show up and ask for help from the Planeteers, THAT is a stereotype.

* Not really. I've grown up Philipeno, and throughout my life, I've been known as an "Asian". I'm not a Chink: I'm Philipeno. No, I don't know Kung Fu (thats from China), I'm not a Ninja (Thats from Japan). Yes I play starcraft, no I'm not a Korean all-star pro. Yes, my eyes are slightly more slanted than yours. No, I don't have buck teeth... I don't even know where that started... Fact of the matter is, most people are ignorant about other people's cultures. Even friendly people are ignorant. Most people can't tell the difference between Chinese Culture and Japanese misrepresentation of Chinese Culture... let alone the difference between China and the Philippines. I'm sure Native Americans have it worse... but the "Asian" stereotype is just as nonsencical as the "Native American" stereotype.

Still, You just live with it. Its a fact of life. Most people aren't trying to be hurtful either, they just honestly don't know any better.

* Now that I think of it... "Noble Savage" is hardly a Native American Stereotype... any more than "Noble Savage" is a Scottsman Stereotype perpetuated by "The Highlander" and "Samurai Jack". As stated before, the big stereotypes I've encountered (in real life) against Native Americans are alcoholism and gambling.

Artistically... the use of this stereotype / myth has proven to be effective in communicating an idea to the audience. At the end of the day, that is what art is: a method to communication.

Yeah, no. The purpose is to communicate the message in a way that is entertaining and interesting. World of Warcraft's story is rarely either.

Its clearly entertaining and interesting enough to the people who (cos)play it.

[The Great Hippo]

* I never said the Tauren were a homage to Native Americans. I said they were inspired by the Native American Myth.

Like I said, the difference between 'inspired by' and 'ripped off from' is that the former does something interesting with the material (in other words, it could qualify as a homage), while the latter just takes the material and recycles it (this is what the Tauren do). Saying Tauren were 'inspired' by the Native American myth is like saying A Fistful of Dollars was 'inspired by' Yojimbo. No, it's just a rip off.

Still, You just live with it. Its a fact of life. Most people aren't trying to be hurtful either, they just honestly don't know any better.

How is whether or not you're okay with it relevant to whether or not other people are okay with it?

* Now that I think of it... "Noble Savage" is hardly a Native American Stereotype... any more than "Noble Savage" is a Scottsman Stereotype perpetuated by "The Highlander" and "Samurai Jack". As stated before, the big stereotypes I've encountered (in real life) against Native Americans are alcoholism and gambling.

I'm not understanding how the existence of other stereotypes is relevant.

Its clearly entertaining and interesting enough to the people who (cos)play it.

I play World of Warcraft. It's a fun game. But do you think cosplaying is indicative of artistic quality? People cosplay Twilight.

[General_Norris]

'Inspired by' the Native American myth, or 'completely ripped off of' the Native American myth? The difference between a homage and a copy is that the homage does something interesting and different with the source material.

We are not here to debate artistic quality but morality. And, as Penny Arcade said, the difference is whether or not you like it.

Anyway, there is no question that the Tauren are just a direct importation of Native American stereotypes (no, they weren't 'inspired' by the diversity of Native American tribes; they were simply copied over from our broadly inaccurate perception of Native American tribes as a single, monolithic whole--i.e., all Native Americans lived in tee-pees, all Native Americans carved totem poles).

They are stereotypes because you say so? Dude, no.

Never in the game they claim that all Native Americans lived in tee-pees nor that all Native Americans carved totem poles. Tauren do but Tauren are not Native Americans. Tauren have traits from different Native American cultures and Blizzard acknoweledges that they are a pastiche of different cultures, they never claim that they simply represent "Indians".

Do you think that the humans are a stereotype of europeans with their pseudogothic structure and their "stereotypical" medieval armor? Because the churches are as much of a "ripoff" as totems.

[The Great Hippo]

We are not here to debate artistic quality but morality. And, as Penny Arcade said, the difference is whether or not you like it.

1) This is a discussion about racial stereotypes in fantasy settings; discussing the artistic merits of those stereotypes is not suddenly irrelevant just because you say so, 2) I'm pointing out that 'inspired by' is inaccurate; the actual example I used (Fistful of Dollars) is a great movie despite the fact that it's just a rip-off of Yojimbo--that is to say, whether or not something is 'inspired by' or 'copied from' another source is a wholly different discussion than whether or not it's still quality stuff.

They are stereotypes because you say so? Dude, no.

The question I assume you're asking is whether or not that's a bad thing, or more specifically, whether or not the Tauren themselves stereotype Native American tribes.

I don't know.

Read. The. Words.

[General_Norris]

Anyway, there is no question that the Tauren are just a direct importation of Native American stereotypes

Read. The. Words.[/quote]

[The Great Hippo]

Anyway, there is no question that the Tauren are just a direct importation of Native American stereotypes

Read. The. Words.

Yes. Those are definitely words I said, and I highly encourage you to read them.

Do you understand the difference between a "direct importation of Native American stereotypes" and "Native American stereotypes"? It's the same as the difference between a photograph of an apple and an actual apple.

[Whimsical Eloquence]

I don't think I'll particularly take up the ill-defined debate of homage/pastiche/stereotype debate. I think a neutral term would be the "importation of what is generally perceived as Native American aesthetics and motifs".

I don't know. I know I oppose this sort of thing for the same reason I opposed it in Avatar; it's lazy and it perpetuates the myth of indigenous cultures as having a monopoly on spiritual currency (along with the condescending 'noble savage' BS). I don't know how honestly bad it is; I could at least understand if a Native American found these simplified versions of their cultural iconography to be somewhat disrespectful. I mean, I imagine there's only so many times you can see your culture snatched up and misrepresented by someone else before you start getting irritable about it

Hmm, this is the thing though. Does WoW do this? Does it paint "of indigenous cultures as having a monopoly on spiritual currency"? I'm certainly unsure of this, if not outright rejecting it. Particularly with regard to the "Noble Savage" concept in WoW.

[General_Norris]

It's the same as the difference between a photograph of an apple and an actual apple.

The problem is that you have yet to prove either.

Answer this:

Never in the game they claim that all Native Americans lived in tee-pees nor that all Native Americans carved totem poles. Tauren do but Tauren are not Native Americans. Tauren have traits from different Native American cultures and Blizzard acknoweledges that they are a pastiche of different cultures, they never claim that they simply represent "Indians".

Do you think that the humans are a stereotype of europeans with their pseudogothic structure and their "stereotypical" medieval armor? Because the churches are as much of a "ripoff" as totems.

[The Great Hippo]

Hmm, this is the thing though. Does WoW do this? Does it paint "of indigenous cultures as having a monopoly on spiritual currency"? I'm certainly unsure of this, if not outright rejecting it. Particularly with regard to the "Noble Savage" concept in WoW.

I'm honestly not sure anymore; narratively in WoW, they've done that to a certain extent--but having now talked with my wife about the roots of Tauren in Warcraft 3 (which she played more than I), I've learned that they didn't have that whole 'spiritual/moral rightness' that we tend to associate with indigenous cultures--they were just dudes trying to get their homeland back from other dudes (with a smattering of Native American iconography thrown on top). Not, at least, in Warcraft 3; in WoW, things shifted (and they adopted a lot more Native American iconography).

The problem is that you have yet to prove either.

Answer this:

Never in the game they claim that all Native Americans lived in tee-pees nor that all Native Americans carved totem poles. Tauren do but Tauren are not Native Americans. Tauren have traits from different Native American cultures and Blizzard acknoweledges that they are a pastiche of different cultures, they never claim that they simply represent "Indians".

Do you think that the humans are a stereotype of europeans with their pseudogothic structure and their "stereotypical" medieval armor? Because the churches are as much of a "ripoff" as totems.

I think that the Light and its religious accouterments rely on stereotypes concerning the Catholic church (priests and monks, emphasis on ritual, hierarchy of bishops, gothic architecture--even the ridiculous hats). It's not a complete importation, however; the Light is actually atheistic. It's kind of hard to call a bunch of religious atheists a rip-off of the Catholic Church. It's definitely the primary source material, though.

Also, I've 'yet to prove' what? That Tauren are an importation of widely perceived Native American culture and aesthetics? Go look up 'Tauren' with google. Just do an image search.

[Whimsical Eloquence]

I'm honestly not sure anymore; narratively in WoW, they've done that to a certain extent--but having now talked with my wife about the roots of Tauren in Warcraft 3 (which she played more than I), I've learned that they didn't have that whole 'spiritual/moral rightness' that we tend to associate with indigenous cultures--they were just dudes trying to get their homeland back from other dudes (with a smattering of Native American iconography thrown on top). Not, at least, in Warcraft 3; in WoW, things shifted (and they adopted a lot more Native American iconography).

Sidenote: Warcraft III had MUCH better storylines... >>

Sure, but they've still never afforded them the whole Primitivism slant, endowing them with righteousness or monopoly on spirituality due to their "primitive" nature. If anything they've almost conspicuously (not to their benefit but more as evidence of bad writing) avoided giving them an "uncivilised" mindset as it were. Sure, they live differently to the more advanced races in their homeland but their mindset is in no way averse to technology or any other practice of one of the more "civilised" races once we move past there. In talking to the NPCs they more or less say more or less what the other Kalimdorean Horde NPCs say (the BE and Undead being notably different).

I mean personally yes, I think its lazy storytelling on their part to do what they did with the Tauren to the extent that it's done in WoW. In a fantasy, if you have a nomadic plains culture it can very easily bear some similarities (unsurprisingly) with a broad pastiche of historical plains cultures. But once you move past this, semi-consciously modelling it on that culture it's just a deficit of effort and imagination on that of the writer/s.

However, I don't think this particular instance of the Tauren acting as they do has any particular moral significance. There's no real stereotype as such. It's such a clumsy importation of aesthetics and motifs. There's no implicit comment or generalisation on the rather broad historical and present day group known as Native Americans.

I think that the Light and its religious accoutrements rely on stereotypes concerning the Catholic church (priests and monks, emphasis on ritual, hierarchy of bishops, gothic architecture--even the ridiculous hats). It's not a complete importation, however; the Light is actually atheistic. It's kind of hard to call a bunch of religious atheists a rip-off of the Catholic Church. It's definitely the primary source material, though.

Of course the Light is atheistic, what does that have to do with it? If anything that just highlights how that's also a lazy importation or (if the Tauren thing is so then this ) a "stereotype". Rather than create New Aesthetics or religious structures fit for what is essentially an organised philosophy rather than an organised religion, the writers have lazily dragged over the whole shibang from a crude pastiche of European Christianity and just dropped it there.

[KnightExemplar]

* I never said the Tauren were a homage to Native Americans. I said they were inspired by the Native American Myth.

Like I said, the difference between 'inspired by' and 'ripped off from' is that the former does something interesting with the material (in other words, it could qualify as a homage), while the latter just takes the material and recycles it (this is what the Tauren do). Saying Tauren were 'inspired' by the Native American myth is like saying A Fistful of Dollars was 'inspired by' Yojimbo. No, it's just a rip off.

Last time I checked, "inspired by" is used for remakes. Based on, inspired by, and ripped off are all the same thing to me, except "ripped off" has a negative connotation. Inspired By leaves more room for creativity (compared to based on and ripped off), but the storyteller admits that he himself didn't come up with the story idea.

I haven't watched either movie btw.

Still, You just live with it. Its a fact of life. Most people aren't trying to be hurtful either, they just honestly don't know any better.

How is whether or not you're okay with it relevant to whether or not other people are okay with it?

Nope. But if they aren't okay with it, they'll have an annoying life ahead of them. Its so common that you need to develop a thick skin for this sort of thing IMO.

* Now that I think of it... "Noble Savage" is hardly a Native American Stereotype... any more than "Noble Savage" is a Scottsman Stereotype perpetuated by "The Highlander" and "Samurai Jack". As stated before, the big stereotypes I've encountered (in real life) against Native Americans are alcoholism and gambling.

I'm not understanding how the existence of other stereotypes is relevant.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think of it, I can call Samurai Jack's "Scottsman" to be a stereotype. Tauren however are not a stereotype.

Here's the difference: they want you to think that the Scottsman is... well... a Scottsman. Like Groundskeeper Willie from Simpsons. Its a straight up racial stereotype They are communicating the idea that these people are from a specific country / culture.

People aren't supposed to think that Tauren are Native Americans.

Its clearly entertaining and interesting enough to the people who (cos)play it.

I play World of Warcraft. It's a fun game. But do you think cosplaying is indicative of artistic quality? People cosplay Twilight.

And as much as I don't like twilight, it is clearly a commercial success. The story connects and resonates with people.

However, I don't think this particular instance of the Tauren acting as they do has any particular moral significance. There's no real stereotype as such. It's such a clumsy importation of aesthetics and motifs. There's no implicit comment or generalisation on the rather broad historical and present day group known as Native Americans.

Precisely.

Its lazy, ignorant, and stupid, but its not a stereotype. Like someone said in some other thread: call shit-fuckers a shit-fucker. But those shitfuckers aren't goat fuckers, ya know?

[podbaydoor]

At the end of the day, its just another ignorant myth that is passed around. If I actually cared about every ignorant myth / stereotype that I've ever come across, I'd never get anything done!

That's great, awesome. Gold star for you. Now quit claiming that being a cool cucumber is oh-so-superior to people who deal with things differently.

[KnightExemplar]

At the end of the day, its just another ignorant myth that is passed around. If I actually cared about every ignorant myth / stereotype that I've ever come across, I'd never get anything done!

That's great, awesome. Gold star for you. Now quit claiming that being a cool cucumber is oh-so-superior to people who deal with things differently.

Depends on what that "deals with things differently".

If people actually dealt with this issue (ie: working to pass legislation targetting say, racial stereotypes in a fantasy setting), I'd fight against it. Blizzard has every right to do this. I am strongly against action. If you sit around here and argue whether or not it is some sort of philosophical "wrong", well, I'm in this debate as much as you. But if no action is taken at the end of the day, neither of us really "dealt" with the issue, we just talked about it on some internet forum.

I'm not against us talking about it: I think this is an interesting debate topic.

Aside from that, is there some sort of law against appearing like a cool cucumber online, especially in the name of rhetoric?

[Izawwlgood]

I was poking around the other day, and someone in this new guild I joined hopped on named AnalFisting. People snickered at his name, but by in large, the humor he prescribed to was pretty base. Your mom jokes, and the like. Ha ha, doesn't bother me, the dudes obviously just some 15 year old.

But then another dude logged on, a dude whose evidently an officer, and who was named ZyclonB. I informed him I thought his name was in incredibly bad taste, and he said 'Then don't look at it'.

I know there's no cure for stupid, and the internet allows and attracts some of the basest of stupid, but perhaps WoW, by creating a fantasy world that perpetuates stupid stereotypes, actually attracts and encourages people like AnalFisting and ZyclonB. Most other games I've played will warn you for a name like that; indeed, in Eve, when someone named HitlerWasRight created a corp called JewHunter, I reported the guy and was pleasantly surprised to see his character deleted (maybe he just had to do a name change, I dunno).

So yeah, in retrospect, maybe these stereotypes are actually pretty bad, principally because they send the message that such ignorance is acceptable.

[Zamfir]

But then another dude logged on, a dude whose evidently an officer, and who was named ZyclonB.

Then he even managed to spell his name wrong.

On a more serious note: I don't think the guys going after shocks or the genuine deep racists are the problem here. For them, there is more than enough real-world history to get inspiration from. The risk, I think, lies more with children who grow up with nicely stereotyped races with their inborn characteristics. In that light, positive characteristics are perhaps more dangerous than clearly negative ones. Those trigger a clear "racism ahead" warning.

But thinking that native Americans are born nature lovers is much easier. Then, somewhere later along the line, the suggestion that they are perhaps not really suited for modern life can creep in over an established path.

[Gelsamel]

Also consider that you can't really play EVE if you're stupid.

[Izawwlgood]

Also consider that you can't really play EVE if you're stupid.

I would argue that to be incredibly false simply based on interacting with Eve players.

[Zamfir]

Also consider that you can't really play EVE if you're stupid.

Racism is hardly restricted to stupid people. At best, smarter people know which things they shouldn't say in polite company.

[Vaniver]

Then he even managed to spell his name wrong.

Possibly to evade an automated filter? No clue what EVE uses.

But thinking that native Americans are born nature lovers is much easier. Then, somewhere later along the line, the suggestion that they are perhaps not really suited for modern life can creep in over an established path.

Honestly, I think it's more dangerous because it encourages primitivism through the myth that natives were noble savages.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

At the end of the day, its just another ignorant myth that is passed around. If I actually cared about every ignorant myth / stereotype that I've ever come across, I'd never get anything done!

That's great, awesome. Gold star for you. Now quit claiming that being a cool cucumber is oh-so-superior to people who deal with things differently.

Depends on what that "deals with things differently".

If people actually dealt with this issue (ie: working to pass legislation targetting say, racial stereotypes in a fantasy setting), I'd fight against it. Blizzard has every right to do this. I am strongly against action. If you sit around here and argue whether or not it is some sort of philosophical "wrong", well, I'm in this debate as much as you. But if no action is taken at the end of the day, neither of us really "dealt" with the issue, we just talked about it on some internet forum.

False dichotomy. There are ways to pressure Blizzard besides legal prohibition.

[Zamfir]

But thinking that native Americans are born nature lovers is much easier. Then, somewhere later along the line, the suggestion that they are perhaps not really suited for modern life can creep in over an established path.

Honestly, I think it's more dangerous because it encourages primitivism through the myth that natives were noble savages.

I am not quite sure what you mean there, but i think I disagree. There is a good reason why hints of ethnic stereotyping get this hypersensitive scrutinizing. History, including recent history, shows that such stereotyping can feed enormous atrocities.

Sometimes because it encourages a powerful group of people to treat other groups in a way they would never consider towards their own, sometimes because it splits communities in a destructive spiral of hatred. And these things happen everywhere, they seem to be a standard fault line of modern societies, or perhaps of human societies in general.

Primitivism on the other hand has no such history. There might be individuals who are willing to push a back-to-nature ideology to extremes, but that just doesn't seem to generate the scale and popularity needed for more than token action. In a recent thread here, the question arose which societies in the last decades had consciously turned their back to modernity, and it was hard to find examples. The Khmer Rouge qualifies, but they idolized peasant life, definitely not a nature-loving primitivism.

With these histories, I think there is something to say for a close look at even these mild, distant examples of racial stereotyping. It doesn;t seem to do much harm, but we also know that if it harms, the harm can be enormous. On the hand, primitivism seems to lead to isolated communes, and when it reaches the level of large-scale politics you get subsidized solar panels as worst atrocity.

[Vaniver]

History, including recent history, shows that such stereotyping can feed enormous atrocities.

Possibly, but I'm not sure the pathways are as clear as you suggest. The two main approaches taken to Native Americans were "force them onto reservations" and "raise the children as Westerners"; the first has a pretty terrible track record and the second has a pretty terrible reputation (but I don't know if there's data on its track record). It's not clear to me that the first was motivated by "they'll never make it in industrial society," and the second seems pretty obviously motivated by the opposite belief.

Sometimes because it encourages a powerful group of people to treat other groups in a way they would never consider towards their own, sometimes because it splits communities in a destructive spiral of hatred. And these things happen everywhere, they seem to be a standard fault line of modern societies, or perhaps of human societies in general.

Here, the causality seems reversed- it seems to me that stereotypes gain power when used to accomplish an end, but don't significantly suggest their own ends. You don't need a Schelling point until you're playing a game.

[Jessica]

History, including recent history, shows that such stereotyping can feed enormous atrocities.

Possibly, but I'm not sure the pathways are as clear as you suggest. The two main approaches taken to Native Americans were "force them onto reservations" and "raise the children as Westerners"; the first has a pretty terrible track record and the second has a pretty terrible recommendation (but I don't know if there's data on its track record). It's not clear to me that the first was motivated by "they'll never make it in industrial society," and the second seems pretty obviously motivated by the opposite belief.

There are some really shitty examples of how we (as westerners) have fucked over native cultures. As examples of the second one you, there are residential schools in Canada. Generally considered by Canadians in the know as a really shitty thing we did to the First Nations people.

[Chandani]

There are some really shitty examples of how we (as westerners) have fucked over native cultures. As examples of the second one you, there are residential schools in Canada. Generally considered by Canadians in the know as a really shitty thing we did to the First Nations people.

Hey, something similar to that happened in America too!
I went to an exhibit about it. Some of the accounts were...frightening to say the least. Especially the treatment of the kids who spoke their native language.