Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

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Tomo
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Tomo » Tue May 24, 2011 2:00 pm UTC

Felltir wrote:In the case of incest, which if I recall correctly there are people on these boards who have encountered, then you can't take either side as a member of family. It's the difference between "I believe you, but I'm finding it hard to believe that he/she would have done this"/"I believe you, but I am struggling to see why he/she would lie about being raped" (supportive, but not taking a side) and the same sentences without "I believe you". It is the belief of the people close to you (be they friends, family, or people on the internet) that matters. Yes, it could require some double think. But you need to give BOTH sides the benefit of the doubt. Because the one who is telling the truth needs your support, and needs it NOW. And you don't know who that is yet.


That all makes sense in the case of a friend accusing another friend - but as previously stated I don't really put any faith in family, most likely just because I've never had a real one. So yeah that's just me :p

My original point was just that assuming it's always the accuser who needs the support is false, but after reading that post I think we agree on that. Support is the important thing regardless, rather than accusations, even masked in the form of "are you sure you didn't dream it?".
Last edited by Tomo on Tue May 24, 2011 2:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Oregonaut » Tue May 24, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

What is so difficult about thinking some? Why do you have to have a black and white answer? Seriously, one family member who feels strongly about caring for the "alleged" victim can make a world of difference, and even more important, can stop the situation from continuing.

If they're lying, figure out after the fact why they did that. Try to help them out, even though they lied to you. Why? Because the alternative is YOU DON'T TRUST A VICTIM OF RAPE.

So, ask yourself, are you big enough to help someone who may be lying, but may not be and really needs your help EITHER WAY?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Tomo » Tue May 24, 2011 2:14 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:What is so difficult about thinking some? Why do you have to have a black and white answer? Seriously, one family member who feels strongly about caring for the "alleged" victim can make a world of difference, and even more important, can stop the situation from continuing.


I think you're massively misrepresenting my position here, I never looked for a black and white answer - rather I was the one saying there might be a grey area rather than instantly taking the side purely because someone is accusing rather than being accused.

I also think you're hugely understating the effects that a false rape accusation can do to a person. Perhaps not on par with the act of rape, but just because worse things happen...

Oregonaut wrote:If they're lying, figure out after the fact why they did that. Try to help them out, even though they lied to you. Why? Because the alternative is YOU DON'T TRUST A VICTIM OF RAPE.

So, ask yourself, are you big enough to help someone who may be lying, but may not be and really needs your help EITHER WAY?


I'm big enough to help someone who lied to me. Helping someone who is actively trying to emotionally destroy another person, causing ripples throughout their social, academic and family life, for a reason that could be as facetious as "I didn't like him"? Yeah. you can't just caps the alternative and make out like that's the best option.

Rape is terrible. Falsely accusing someone of rape is terrible.

Saying the victim of the first is always in need of support, while the perpetrator of the second is in need of support seems exceptionally one sided.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Oregonaut » Tue May 24, 2011 2:27 pm UTC

Actually, "help" if you prove with actual proof that they are lying about it can be something as simple as directing them to the nearest lawyer. You see, I'm one of those people that thinks that reforming or helping criminals (which is what a false reporter is) is a good thing. If we ostracize them completely, you're just starting the cycle over again. If you can help them deal with the brass tacks issues, the ones that make them think that false reporting is a good idea, you're doing everyone a favor.

The other option is you sit on your side and shun them. If that's what flicks your bic, have fun with that.

I'd rather presume that someone's hurt until I have firm proof they've not been hurt.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby felltir » Tue May 24, 2011 2:30 pm UTC

Tomo wrote:Saying the victim of the first is always in need of support, while the perpetrator of the second is in need of support seems exceptionally one sided.


See my post. I told you. Doublethink. You have to support both.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Tomo » Tue May 24, 2011 2:34 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Actually, "help" if you prove with actual proof that they are lying about it can be something as simple as directing them to the nearest lawyer. You see, I'm one of those people that thinks that reforming or helping criminals (which is what a false reporter is) is a good thing. If we ostracize them completely, you're just starting the cycle over again. If you can help them deal with the brass tacks issues, the ones that make them think that false reporting is a good idea, you're doing everyone a favor.

The other option is you sit on your side and shun them. If that's what flicks your bic, have fun with that.

I'd rather presume that someone's hurt until I have firm proof they've not been hurt.


I'd actually prefer to help criminals too, as long as you feel the same way about actual rapists. My issue was the double standard you seemed to have between rape/false accusation. You certainly didn't come across like the sort of person who, upon hearing that an individual had just raped someone, would direct them to the nearest lawyer.

Felltir wrote:See my post. I told you. Doublethink. You have to support both.


Yep, and see my post two posts ago in which I completely agreed with everything you said :p

EDIT: Just to clarify, I said previously that support was the important thing, and thought that implied support all round. the only issue I had with this thread was a seeming trend towards siding with the accuser (or either party) without evidence.
Last edited by Tomo on Tue May 24, 2011 2:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue May 24, 2011 2:38 pm UTC

Tomo wrote:Saying the victim of the first is always in need of support, while the perpetrator of the second is in need of support seems exceptionally one sided.

Except that statistically, chances are that the victim is telling the truth.

Pretty much, everyone has a different job to do, and most people aren't doing it. The support group (friends, relatives, etc) of either side needs to help them, and the general public/media needs to butt out. And the justice system needs to be impartial and fair, and get justice done.

But then we *all* need to make a big point about the fact that people should come forward and tell if they've been raped. And we need to make sure that they feel secure and safe in doing it. Doesn't matter whether them is your best friend, or the girl that your best friend had drunk sex with last night - everyone should feel like if they have been raped they can do something about it. Because from what I hear, the alternative is pretty fucking shit.

Now, there's another job that needs to be done. That's the job of making sure that we find and deal with false accusations. I'm going to uhh, let you figure out which group I mentioned above has to deal with that. I'll give you a hint - it begins with J, and it ends when a judge bangs his gavel. More importantly, it's not you and I or the media circus.

And the reason why we have such a problem right now is because everyone is trying to do the job that we don't need to do, in absence of the job we need to do.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Oregonaut » Tue May 24, 2011 2:39 pm UTC

You are right, the double-standard I have is that a false accuser gets to live. A rapist, in my world, would be fortunate to be fed to pigs AFTER I killed them.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby engr » Tue May 24, 2011 5:00 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:You are right, the double-standard I have is that a false accuser gets to live. A rapist, in my world, would be fortunate to be fed to pigs AFTER I killed them.


Because, unlike rapes, false rape accusations totally don't ruin lives, especially if they result in convictions.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Tue May 24, 2011 5:06 pm UTC

Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby engr » Tue May 24, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?


I'm pretty sure he is talking about those who have been proven to be lying:

Oregonaut wrote:Actually, "help" if you prove with actual proof that they are lying about it can be something as simple as directing them to the nearest lawyer. You see, I'm one of those people that thinks that reforming or helping criminals (which is what a false reporter is) is a good thing. If we ostracize them completely, you're just starting the cycle over again. If you can help them deal with the brass tacks issues, the ones that make them think that false reporting is a good idea, you're doing everyone a favor.


I disagree with this leniency towards someone who ruined, or tried to ruin another person's life by false rape accusation. It's like saying that instead of ostracizing and shunning a convicted rapist/attempted rapist we should reform him, help him deal with his issues, etc.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby pizzazz » Tue May 24, 2011 5:42 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?



So does being falsely accused of being falsely accused of falsely accusing. What's your point?

Oregonaut wrote:What is so difficult about thinking some? Why do you have to have a black and white answer? Seriously, one family member who feels strongly about caring for the "alleged" victim can make a world of difference, and even more important, can stop the situation from continuing.

If they're lying, figure out after the fact why they did that. Try to help them out, even though they lied to you. Why? Because the alternative is YOU DON'T TRUST A VICTIM OF RAPE.

So, ask yourself, are you big enough to help someone who may be lying, but may not be and really needs your help EITHER WAY?


I'm fine with family members/loved ones believing the victim, just as the family of the accused is probably going to believe the accused. My point about presumption of innocence was for those whose job it is to determine the truth (law enforcement and the justice system) and for people who have the power to inflict consequences (such as school administrators or employers. Also, note that presumption of innocence of the accused does not imply that one is the victim is at fault, or was not hurt.

And what is that last line supposed to mean? The "help" that someone lying about being raped is very different from the kind of help that an actual rape victim needs.

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pizzazz wrote:*So, this is something that's confused for the last 9 months since I realized it. Why is it that while drunk, you are presumed to have enough judgment that you can be held responsible for any deaths you cause by driving drunk, but not enough judgment to consent to sex?


Because if you have sex you later regret when drunk, or are too drunk to consent, or aren't sure which because you can't remember a thing and oh god my head... the victim is yourself. You can generally do whatever the fuck you like to yourself, in law. However, when you hurt/injure/kill someone else, you are responsible, whether or not you were drunk, because you've damaged someone else. The fact that you were drunk, IIRC (IANAL) is something that gets most sentences reduces. (I.E. Running someone down is worse than running someone down while drunk).


I understand all of that, but I don't see how it answers the question. My question is not about magnitude of punishment, or even directly about culpability. If I get drunk, then get behind the wheel of a car and kill someone, I am held responsible for that death. Usually it is considered an accident (manslaughter), akin to, say, pointing a gun at someone and having it go off by accident. The victim's death is still your fault, but the law acknowledges that you didn't kill on purpose; however, being drunk does not make it not your fault. On the other hand, if you are drunk and instead have sex with a sober person, now being drunk makes it not my fault. Confusing the situation even more, if the other person is drunk, and initiates sex, now THEY are treated as the drunk driver above, in that they are now a rapist.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Tue May 24, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

engr wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?


I'm pretty sure he is talking about those who have been proven to be lying:

Oregonaut wrote:Actually, "help" if you prove with actual proof that they are lying about it can be something as simple as directing them to the nearest lawyer. You see, I'm one of those people that thinks that reforming or helping criminals (which is what a false reporter is) is a good thing. If we ostracize them completely, you're just starting the cycle over again. If you can help them deal with the brass tacks issues, the ones that make them think that false reporting is a good idea, you're doing everyone a favor.


I disagree with this leniency towards someone who ruined, or tried to ruin another person's life by false rape accusation. It's like saying that instead of ostracizing and shunning a convicted rapist/attempted rapist we should reform him, help him deal with his issues, etc.

What? You're saying that we shouldn't help criminals deal with their issues?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby lutzj » Tue May 24, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:You're saying that we shouldn't help criminals deal with their issues?


He was responding in part to

Oregonaut wrote:A rapist, in my world, would be fortunate to be fed to pigs AFTER I killed them.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue May 24, 2011 10:15 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?

More to the point, if everyone who brings a case of rape to light is falsely accused of falsely accusing by the public, then they won't bring cases of rape to light.

I swear that you people don't seem to get what we're saying here. Yes, being falsely accused is a terrible terrible thing; no-one is denying that, and every time I hear a case of it after the fact I think 'shit, that person shouldn't have to go through that.' But, ultimately, by the nature of sex being a private act that occurs behind closed doors, and consent being based on the actions and words of people behind those doors, I can't see a way of preventing malicious people from falsely accusing others of rape without making it so bad to rape victims that none ever come forward. This is for good reason - people who are falsely accusing others can do so without being in the state of emotional trauma that comes from being raped. All they need is to fake the evidence, and *as the public* we really can't do much to make it harder to do that. Maybe insist on letting Big Brother put telescreens in every room, perhaps?

But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape. If people make a malicious false accusation, they just have to get more evidence, and if people make a false accusation to get attention to themselves - well, the option for more melodrama doesn't exactly serve to turn them away. It's the real accusations, where people are sitting there going 'oh god oh god oh god what will I do I just want it to go away I don't want to have a court case, I don't want to have to face them, I just want it to go away.' *They're* the ones who let things go unreported.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue May 24, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape.


This, this this this.

Maliciously making false accusations/providing false testimony is a crime. If we're going to go down the "innocent until proven guilty" path, it applies just as much to rape accusers as it does to rapists.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Goplat » Tue May 24, 2011 10:51 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:You are right, the double-standard I have is that a false accuser gets to live. A rapist, in my world, would be fortunate to be fed to pigs AFTER I killed them.

(How are the pigs supposed to eat if you killed them first?)

But seriously, if you consider how prison generally works in the US, false accusations don't seem quite so minor:
  1. Result of direct rape: Victim gets raped
  2. Result of successful false rape accusation: Victim gets raped repeatedly (in prison) and will never get a decent job ever after due to criminal record
Why is (1) worse than (2)?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jakovasaur » Tue May 24, 2011 11:08 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape.

The perpetuation of the idea that "every man is a potential rapist" serves *no* purpose but to prematurely condemn possibly innocent men.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue May 24, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
dedalus wrote:But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape.

The perpetuation of the idea that "every man is a potential rapist" serves *no* purpose but to prematurely condemn possibly innocent men.


Are you seriously trying to imply that the two are equivalent, when one is dealing with proceedings in the justice system and the other is dealing with how someone lives their daily life.

Don't sidetrack this thread into a debate on your opinion of the views espoused by certain feminist writers. This thread is not specific to any particular gender; don't drag gender into it where it doesn't belong.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Box Boy » Tue May 24, 2011 11:19 pm UTC

Goplat wrote:[*]Result of successful false rape accusation: Victim gets raped repeatedly (in prison) and will never get a decent job ever after due to criminal record[/list]
I think you're missing what the exact problem is, here.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue May 24, 2011 11:20 pm UTC

Goplat wrote:But seriously, if you consider how prison generally works in the US, false accusations don't seem quite so minor:
  1. Result of direct rape: Victim gets raped
  2. Result of successful false rape accusation: Victim gets raped repeatedly (in prison) and will never get a decent job ever after due to criminal record
Why is (1) worse than (2)?


No. Just no. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

This post is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start.

Trying to use prison rape to justify sympathy for those convicted of rape is pretty fucked up, even if they are falsely accused.

No one should be raped. If someone is raped in prison, that is NOT OKAY EITHER. In fact, considering the very topic of this thread is rape culture, it is despicable that you would come into it and talk about how "it's bad if someone goes to prison because they get raped there".

If you're going to continue thinking like that, then the door is over there, don't let it hit you on the way out. It's not fucking cool.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue May 24, 2011 11:24 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
dedalus wrote:But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape.

The perpetuation of the idea that "every man is a potential rapist" serves *no* purpose but to prematurely condemn a possibly innocent man.

How come? Again, for about the third bloody time; it's the job of the legal system to deal with false accusations.

Maybe this term is being hidden behind the butter or something, so I'll say it larger.
Legal. System.
This is the police and the judges. Ultimately, yes, the jury as well, which I will concede means we shouldn't come to the conclusion of 'every rape accusation is true'. No-one is arguing for that. I'm arguing that we shouldn't have the knee-jerk reaction of hearing an accusation of 'maybe she's just trying to draw attention to herself'. The reaction should be 'well, that's shit, she's probably (on the basis that statistically there are more real accusations then false ones) telling the truth, and given that (unless we're closely linked to the case) we really haven't heard much more then a short summary with probable bias from a secondary source, we shouldn't be making assumptions, and let's go do something else and wait till the court decides.'

Because, if you're sitting around with someone who has recently been raped, and they're trying to find it within themselves to bring it up and have it dealt with, the first reaction is pretty much going to make sure that they never do. However, if you're sitting around with someone who is planning to frame someone else, the second reaction isn't going to cause them to say 'hey, I'll definitely get away with this, let's do it!' How is it? Oh wow, someone else has said they will refrain from passing judgement on a rape case until a court decides.

And for the record, I don't see how a source that points out quite rightfully that a women is safest if she distrusts strangers (and men should act accordingly) is saying 'every rape accusation is true.'

@Goplat: read the above. And then re-read it, and realise that your excuse does not have anything to do with how we as the general public should respond to rape cases.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue May 24, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

No, false accusations of rape are indeed not so minor, nor should they be treated as such.

But the default response to anyone stepping forward with an accusation of rape being this same old intense suspicion of false accusations is absolute bullshit, leading to massive under-report rates *especially* due to the psychologically damaging nature of rape. Of *course* there's a danger of accusations of a crime being false. That's what the justice system is for.

But I still don't see the same response surrounding a theft trial of "Well, what if they just lost the item then framed the person because they wanted to get back at them, or if they were wearing their gold watch in plain view what'd they expect to happen..." Seriously, is there any other crime where people feel the need to point out "But there's a possibility that they didn't actually do it" as much as with rape? No shit, Sherlock, that's why we're having a trial.

While I don't have a conclusive source to cite, a quick Google search has led me to the number that 2-8% of rapes are false reports. I hardly think this justifies inflicting huge psychological damage on anyone who comes forward with an accusation of rape, especially when you consider that they're already almost certainly feeling very vulnerable, and increasing the psychological cost of seeking justice will actively obstruct justice and, honestly, not do that much to deter false accusations anyway.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby _infina_ » Wed May 25, 2011 12:26 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote: a quick Google search has led me to the number that 2-8% of rapes are false reports.


If all rapes were reported, then that would be a significantly smaller percentage. According to RAINN, rape is only reported 40% of the time.
Basically, false accusations are an extremely minor problem compared to other issues, not meaning that false accusations are, in themselves, minor, but can be dealt with after other, much more important issues are taken care of. I would much rather see a large percentage of rapes reported than false accusations stopped. We have to prioritize. It needs to be done, but it is not more important than some of the other issues.

jakovasaur wrote:
dedalus wrote:But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape.

The perpetuation of the idea that "every man is a potential rapist" serves *no* purpose but to prematurely condemn possibly innocent men.


Every human is a potential rapist. Most will not commit rape. A lot of that has to do with impulse control. Not all, but most. Should we view them as such? No, we should first view them as human, then view the evidence against them. Of course we must remember that a lack of evidence is not evidence of innocence.

Looking at some of this, rape culture looks like spaghetti code.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby pizzazz » Wed May 25, 2011 1:12 am UTC

dedalus wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Being falsely accused of falsely accusing also, surprisingly, ruins lives. What did you think Oregonaut's point was?

More to the point, if everyone who brings a case of rape to light is falsely accused of falsely accusing by the public, then they won't bring cases of rape to light.

I swear that you people don't seem to get what we're saying here. Yes, being falsely accused is a terrible terrible thing; no-one is denying that, and every time I hear a case of it after the fact I think 'shit, that person shouldn't have to go through that.' But, ultimately, by the nature of sex being a private act that occurs behind closed doors, and consent being based on the actions and words of people behind those doors, I can't see a way of preventing malicious people from falsely accusing others of rape without making it so bad to rape victims that none ever come forward. This is for good reason - people who are falsely accusing others can do so without being in the state of emotional trauma that comes from being raped. All they need is to fake the evidence, and *as the public* we really can't do much to make it harder to do that. Maybe insist on letting Big Brother put telescreens in every room, perhaps?

The goal is not total prevention of false accusations, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that is even plausible. But there is a space between "denying that rapes ever occur unless we have third-party witnesses" and "accusations of rape imply rape unless we have third party witnesses."

But yeah, as a society, this perpetuation of the idea that 'every rape victim is a potential false accuser' serves *no* purpose but to let people get away with rape. If people make a malicious false accusation, they just have to get more evidence, and if people make a false accusation to get attention to themselves - well, the option for more melodrama doesn't exactly serve to turn them away. It's the real accusations, where people are sitting there going 'oh god oh god oh god what will I do I just want it to go away I don't want to have a court case, I don't want to have to face them, I just want it to go away.' *They're* the ones who let things go unreported.


I'm not really sure what you mean by "society." It's definitely true that in no case is more attention from outsiders helpful, and in particular people who have no idea WTF is going on and have no business poking their noses in need to shut the fuck up and back the fuck off. This is the social aspect of society. In the legal/political aspect, the idea that every victim, of any crime, may be a false accuser, or mistaken, or just may not know who the perpetrator is, is an essential part of most modern legal systems. So while it does no good to be more doubtful of rape victims, the justice system has an obligation not to just believe every accusation they hear. That doesn't mean ignoring it until the accuser presents evidence, but it does mean giving the same benefit to any suspects or accused that they would in any other case.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Wed May 25, 2011 1:24 am UTC

pizzazz wrote:I'm not really sure what you mean by "society." It's definitely true that in no case is more attention from outsiders helpful, and in particular people who have no idea WTF is going on and have no business poking their noses in need to shut the fuck up and back the fuck off. This is the social aspect of society. In the legal/political aspect, the idea that every victim, of any crime, may be a false accuser, or mistaken, or just may not know who the perpetrator is, is an essential part of most modern legal systems. So while it does no good to be more doubtful of rape victims, the justice system has an obligation not to just believe every accusation they hear. That doesn't mean ignoring it until the accuser presents evidence, but it does mean giving the same benefit to any suspects or accused that they would in any other case.

This is exactly what everyone is saying. The legal system is there to make the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and then examine the proof. THAT MEANS EVERYONE ELSE SHOULDN'T BE AUTOMATICALLY SWITCHING TO THE DEFAULT 'SHE COULD STILL BE LYING'. By society I mean 'the stuff outside the legal system'. When you see media coverage of a rape case and make a casual comment to the effect of 'hey, maybe they're faking it', or when the media makes almost as much noise about the rape accusations proven false as they do about the rape cases that occur *despite* the second being many times the first, and when an argument about this devolves into 'hey, don't call it a rape culture guyz, we have to be really careful about people being falsely accused' *every* *single* *time*, that's you and the media as parts of society being an unwanted douchenozzle. And that's you and society contributing to rape culture.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Wed May 25, 2011 2:03 am UTC

dedalus wrote:and when an argument about this devolves into 'hey, don't call it a rape culture guyz, we have to be really careful about people being falsely accused' *every* *single* *time*, that's you and the media as parts of society being an unwanted douchenozzle. And that's you and society contributing to rape culture.

To be more specific, that's contributing to the exact existing climate where real rape survivors don't report their rape. Because they will suffer the backlash from some totally unrelated person who lied and now overshadows all legit rape survivors.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby pizzazz » Wed May 25, 2011 3:21 am UTC

dedalus wrote:
pizzazz wrote:I'm not really sure what you mean by "society." It's definitely true that in no case is more attention from outsiders helpful, and in particular people who have no idea WTF is going on and have no business poking their noses in need to shut the fuck up and back the fuck off. This is the social aspect of society. In the legal/political aspect, the idea that every victim, of any crime, may be a false accuser, or mistaken, or just may not know who the perpetrator is, is an essential part of most modern legal systems. So while it does no good to be more doubtful of rape victims, the justice system has an obligation not to just believe every accusation they hear. That doesn't mean ignoring it until the accuser presents evidence, but it does mean giving the same benefit to any suspects or accused that they would in any other case.

This is exactly what everyone is saying. The legal system is there to make the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and then examine the proof. THAT MEANS EVERYONE ELSE SHOULDN'T BE AUTOMATICALLY SWITCHING TO THE DEFAULT 'SHE COULD STILL BE LYING'. By society I mean 'the stuff outside the legal system'. When you see media coverage of a rape case and make a casual comment to the effect of 'hey, maybe they're faking it', or when the media makes almost as much noise about the rape accusations proven false as they do about the rape cases that occur *despite* the second being many times the first, and when an argument about this devolves into 'hey, don't call it a rape culture guyz, we have to be really careful about people being falsely accused' *every* *single* *time*, that's you and the media as parts of society being an unwanted douchenozzle. And that's you and society contributing to rape culture.


I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement at this point, because that's exactly what I've been saying all thread (though I would argue that "everyone else" has no need to form an opinion and certainly no right to uninvitedly get involved in any way).
Also, I never posted an opinion on the terminology, other than asking what we call cultures where rape is even more encouraged.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed May 25, 2011 4:05 am UTC

pizzazz wrote:asking what we call cultures where rape is even more encouraged.


Still rape culture, just even more obscene.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Jave D » Wed May 25, 2011 5:44 am UTC

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but Republican proposals to redefine the term "rape victim" to "rape accuser," are so disgusting to me I want to vomit in someone's eye. As are proposals to redefine "rape" such that date rape, incest, molestation and child abuse aren't rape. This isn't some subtle media trend or anything; these are actual bills proposed and signed by actual elected officials and part of mainstream, federal political action in the US. Last I saw a count there were 916 such bills proposed since November. How long before the Republicans just propose a bill legalizing rape? They could call it the "She Was Asking For It" Law.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Wed May 25, 2011 9:04 am UTC

I'd like to point out what I think is one of the main reasons why guys talk so much about the possibility of false accusations: they feel threatened. Not as much as women feel threatened by random strangers (thanks for that great link on "Schrödinger’s Rapist" btw) but still.
The position they feel is most likely to apply to them in a rape case is not "victim" or "perpetrator". It's "guy falsely accused".

I don't have the statistics, but being falsely accused of murder is much less common (and in some ways less damaging!).

And the worst part is that, as people get more aware about rape's prevalence and horror, the danger of false accusations gets even more present in the mind of the guys who don't believe they could ever be rapists. It's a catch-22...
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Mahonnant » Wed May 25, 2011 9:15 am UTC

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but Republican proposals to redefine the term "rape victim" to "rape accuser," are so disgusting to me I want to vomit in someone's eye.
Why is that ? I'm not american and English is not my first language so I must make some assumptions, in that case I assume the proposals in question aims at renaming the concept "person that has allegedly been raped prior to a trial". It seems to me that "rape victim" implicitly assumes that that person has actually been raped, I have no problem with "rape victim" once the trial actually concluded to said rape but isn't it dangerous to assume guiltiness of the defendant ?
I know a big majority of the rape cases are real, I know there are even more rape cases that are never reported, is that enough of a reason to go against the "innocent until proven otherwise" principle (actually not sure that is a cornerstone of american law, I know it is in France but we seem to have wild differences in legal systems) ?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Hawknc » Wed May 25, 2011 9:44 am UTC

To make an analogy with, say, assault: we don't say people are "assault accusers". They're victims of assault, regardless of whether or not someone is convicted for the crime. Innocent until proven guilty makes no assumptions about whether or not a crime occurred, but who committed it. To change the terminology to "rape accuser" is a calculated maneuver to discredit people who, for any other crime, would be considered victims.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Thirty-one » Wed May 25, 2011 9:53 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:Innocent until proven guilty makes no assumptions about whether or not a crime occurred, but who committed it.


Not that I think the term should be changed, but in the case of (I don't know the English term for it, so pardon the rough translation) non-assault rapes, rapes that happen not on dark streets but at parties by people who know each other to some degree, isn't the question usually whether the crime did or did not happen? As in consent/no consent?

I don't know how the percentages look in the US, but in Norway at least the assault rapes are outnumbered vastly by party ones.

Sorry for the lack of the proper terms.


Comparing with assault, you usually have more obvious (?) signs that a person has been assaulted, as well as the general assumption that most people don't like beatings and therefore don't agree to them, so the crime having happened is easier to establish/assume.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Zamfir » Wed May 25, 2011 10:05 am UTC

I think often assaults have the same problem in practice. It can be hard to prove whether someone was assaulted or involved in a fight where both sides are to blame. No idea about the relative numbers, but I presume that quite some accusations of assault get a response that says "the accuser started and I defended myself succesfully", instead of a denial that the accused was involved in the fight at all.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby felltir » Wed May 25, 2011 10:06 am UTC

Jave D wrote:I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but Republican proposals to redefine the term "rape victim" to "rape accuser," are so disgusting to me I want to vomit in someone's eye. As are proposals to redefine "rape" such that date rape, incest, molestation and child abuse aren't rape. This isn't some subtle media trend or anything; these are actual bills proposed and signed by actual elected officials and part of mainstream, federal political action in the US. Last I saw a count there were 916 such bills proposed since November. How long before the Republicans just propose a bill legalizing rape? They could call it the "She Was Asking For It" Law.


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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Thirty-one » Wed May 25, 2011 10:09 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:I think often assaults have the same problem in practice. It can be hard to prove whether someone was assaulted or involved in a fight where both sides are to blame. No idea about the relative numbers, but I presume that quite some accusations of assault get a response that says "the accuser started and I defended myself succesfully", instead of a denial that the accused was involved in the fight at all.


Good point. I'd guess fights tended to more often start in more public places than non-assault rapes, but it'd be just that, guessing.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby greengiant » Wed May 25, 2011 10:10 am UTC

I'm not sure that assault is a great analogy. Most of the time a defence in court for assault would be 'it wasn't me that committed the assault' rather than 'no assault occurred'.

I guess there are two situations in a rape trial. If the accused's defence is that the prosecution have the wrong person, it doesn't make much difference to them whether the term 'rape victim' is used. But if the accused's defence is that they did have sex but it was consensual then the term 'rape victim' presupposes that the defence is wrong.

It might well be that nine times out of ten the defence is a load of bollocks but I don't think the legal system should use terms that undermine a person's defence. I'm only saying this applies to the court, of course, because part of their job is not prejudging what has happened.

I find myself unhappy with what I'm saying here - I don't like the idea of telling a rape victim they're just a 'rape accuser' but I can't see how a court can use a term that undermines a person's defence. I guess I don't really like either option, just wanted to point out that there is a reason why the defence in a rape trial could reasonably object to the term 'rape victim' being used.

Edit: Mostly ninjaed I guess

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed May 25, 2011 3:26 pm UTC

The courts typically just use the term 'plaintiff'. What language is used in law does not necessarily directly correspond to the language used by the court. It may correspond to the language used by the lawyers, if they choose to cite the law.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Goplat » Wed May 25, 2011 3:54 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:The courts typically just use the term 'plaintiff'.
Only in civil cases. Rape is generally a criminal matter, so the "plaintiff" is the government.


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