The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

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The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Gray Rift » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:31 pm UTC

First off, I apologize if this should go in the Sub-Forum "Dear-SB". This is a personal issue, but I chose to post it here because it also is a philosophical and political issue with a scope far beyond my personal life. Also, one of the "Dear-SB" rules said that Dear-SB is "not a place for...taking things apart because they aren't expressed logically enough to suit you". I posted here because I don't want you guys to be gentle, I want honestly expressed logical and convincing opinions, even if they are tough for me to hear.

In less than a month from now, I am going to graduate from my university and be commissioned as an officer in the U.S. military. As I've progressed through my higher education, I've often had vague doubts about my the nature of my upcoming military service and commitment. As the reality of the event draws closer, I have been forced to stop pushing the issues aside and to think long and hard about my life and what I'm doing.

First, I am NOT any kind of absolute pacifist. I believe that war is horrible, but I also believe that it is often necessary and accomplishes good. (e.g. The Revolutionary War, WW2, the recent international intervention in Libya, etc...) However, throughout the last decade, the U.S. electorate and government have shown that they are unable to make good decisions about when to go to war. This disturbs me. I am going to be trained as a pilot for a few years, and when I get out of training, I don't want to be bombing people who are just defending their homes against what they (ignorantly) see as a U.S. invasion. I also don't want to be causing collateral damage, killing and maiming innocent men, women, and children, unless if there is a DAMN good justification for the conflict. I just don't see this justification at all for U.S. operations in Iraq, and I only see it a little bit in Afghanistan.

For those of you familiar with just war theory, most of the text above talks about Jus ad bellum (according to Wikipedia, "a set of criteria that are to be consulted before engaging in war, in order to determine whether entering into war is permissible; that is, whether it is a just war"). While this is my primary concern, I am also concerned about Jus in Bello ("conduct during war"). The major military scandals of the past decade (e.g. Abu Ghraib) have been bad enough, but many of those situations can be explained away as being the work of "a few bad apples" out of a very large military. What really concerns me is something that I shall call the deep institutional "conservatism" of the U.S. military. (some branches more than others) When I say "conservatism", I'm talking about something that goes far beyond simple politics. (Although loving Bush and hating Obama is certainly part of it) I'm talking about a culture where homophobia, racism, and other despicable attitudes are far more prevalent than anything that I have encountered during my time at my (quite conservative) high school or at my (also quite conservative) university.

A lot of military personnel that I have encountered during my four years of training to be an officer seem to be the somewhat more disciplined spin-offs of the stereotypical dumb high school jock. They tend to be very anti-intellectual (whether it's an 18-year-old enlisted person who just finished high-school, or a 30-40 officer with a master's). They tend to be very politically conservative. They tend to be "Christians". As mentioned above, a disproportionate number are racist and/or homophobic. They also tend to have attitudes towards war and violence that I don't like one bit. As far as those kinds of specific attitudes, (i.e. towards war and violence) in my own mind, I tend to give a philosophical "free pass" to those who have served honorably served in combat, but the vast majority of people that I am talking about have never fired a weapon in the heat of battle, and never will (that's the majority of the U.S military). I don't want to be in a chain-of-command where these kinds of people are my superior officers, sending me, as an aviator, out on missions to kill other human beings.

I apologize if my thoughts have been incoherent, disorganized, or unclear; this is an increasingly difficult topic for me as I become more and more confused and draw ever closer to my commissioning. Any advice from those of you who have served, serve now, or those who just want to chime in? I am primarily concerned with the Jus ad Bellum problems discussed in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I would also appreciate input on the military culture/Jus in Bello problems discussed in the 4th and 5th paragraphs. As a closing thought, here is a bit of poetry about pilots from Vietnam. It's called The Pilots by Denise Levertov.

Because they were prisoners,
because they were polite and friendly and lonesome and homesick,
because they said Yes, they knew
the names of the bombs they dropped
but didn’t say whether they understood what these bombs
are designed to do
to human flesh, and because
I didn’t ask them, being unable to decide
whether to ask would serve
any purpose other than cruelty, and
because since then I met Mrs. Brown, the mother of one of their fellow prisoners,
and loved her, for she has the same lovingkindness in her
that I saw in Vietnamese women (and men too)
and because my hostility left the room and wasn’t there
when I thought I needed it
while I was drinking tea with the POW’s,

because of all these reasons I hope
they were truly as ignorant,
as unawakened,
as they seemed,
I hope their chances in life up to this point
have been poor,
I hope they can truly be considered
victims of the middle America they come from,
their American Legionnaire fathers, their macho high schools,
their dull skimped Freshman English courses,

for if they did understand precisely
what they were doing, and did it anyway, and would do it again,

then I must learn to distrust
my own preference for trusting people,

then I must learn to question
my own preference for liking people,

then I must learn to keep
my hostility chained to me
so it won’t leave me when I need it.

And if it is proved to me
that these men understood their acts,

how shall I ever again
be able to meet the eyes of Mrs. Brown?


My peers who are getting their commissions may be as "unawakened" as Levertov says the poem's pilots may be. Unfortunately for me, I do not think that I can claim the same excuse. Thus, this post. Thank you for your time and thoughts fellow XKCD fans.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Thecuriouskitten » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:40 am UTC

My family has a very strong tradition of military service. So does my husband's. Part of why we do so well together is because we are military brats who are temperamentally unsuited for the military. I know many soldiers like the ones you've described. I also know many soldiers who are more like you describe yourself. The trouble is, these soldiers are afraid to speak up--the same way a rational fiscal conservative is afraid to speak up on a college campus.

Our country needs good officers like you. People who think, question, and have strong empathy. Especially if you can manage to rise to command. But even if you don't, you might have the opportunity to inject some humanity into a situation where it is sorely needed.

If ethical people won't serve, then the unethical have no checks on them.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Tinman42 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:40 am UTC

Iv'e been in the army for about 6 years now to include 2 combat tours. I won't discuss the overall morality of the wars and overall this comment is going to be very short.

There are orders given all of the time in the military that subordinates do not agree with. Seemingly bad decisions anger the soldiers (airmen, marines, sailors) that they are given to. A very common response to these complaints is something along the lines of "If you don't like the orders given, work your way into a position where you get to make the decisions/give the orders."

I guess my point, as simply put as possible is this. If you DO agree with choices made by the military, then joining is a wonderful way to show support and help the cause. If you DO NOT agree with the choices made by the military, putting yourself in the position to make those decisions yourself is a great way to change things. So, regardless of your feelings towards military morality, joining gives you an opportunity to do what you think is right, even though it may take a while to get into that position.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:02 pm UTC

Part of being an officer is knowing which orders to disobey.

Doesn't mean doing the 'right thing' won't have dire consequences though.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby mister_able » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:23 am UTC

God Bless. I attempted to join, but failed to complete the Marine Officer Candidate School, due to a heart issue. Your fellow servicemen and women may disagree with you politically, your commanding officers may give you orders that grate on your nerves, or seem to contradict common sense, but, as an officer in the US military, you have a sworn duty to protect your nation, and, provided, your orders are not clearly immoral, to obey. If you disagree with those who serve with you or under your command, that is no problem. Express your views as appropriate, and do what is right. There can be no moral failing in protecting your fellow man, especially, your countrymen. Disagreeing with someone politically, or religiously does not imply that your opponent is wrong and you are right. Keep an open mind and learn to interact with those whom you might never have spoken with. Thank you for your future service.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Kulantan » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:46 pm UTC

Tinman42 wrote:If you DO NOT agree with the choices made by the military, putting yourself in the position to make those decisions yourself is a great way to change things. So, regardless of your feelings towards military morality, joining gives you an opportunity to do what you think is right, even though it may take a while to get into that position.

Commander-in-chief is not on the military promotion path.

The harsh truth is that if your primary concern is jus ad bellum then I struggle to name many conflicts in the last fifty years in which the US met anything like the critera for jus ad bellum. I have no reason to believe that this trend will change at any point in the foreseeable future. In fact the last major war was instigated on the basis of a pack of lies to satisfy the Executive Office's desire for power, settling of old grudges and oil. While I hope that nothing like that happens again any time soon, it doesn't look good. No attempt at prosecutions have been made and no extra safeguards have been put in place to prevent it happening again.

One other factor is that even in the wars that you identified as necessary there were often a lot of sanctioned breaches of what I would consider jus in bello. For example Allied firebombing campaigns in WW2 and this from Odyssey Dawn:
Spoiler:
NYT wrote:“No shots were fired,” said Capt. Richard Ulsh, a Marine spokesman aboard the Kearsarge. “The Osprey is not armed, and the Marines barely got off the aircraft. I was in the landing center the whole time, where we were monitoring what was going on, and firing was never reported.”

Business Insider wrote:UPDATE: Pentagon sources have confirmed that shots were fired during the rescue operation.

In relation to 6 villagers getting shot during a rescue operation for a downed pilot.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby krogoth » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:53 pm UTC

Gray Rift wrote:I don't want to be bombing people who are just defending their homes against what they (ignorantly) see as a U.S. invasion.


"that is exactly what you are going to be doing" You think you are doing number one, they see you as doing number two.

invadingpresent participle of in·vade (Verb)
Verb:

1. (of an armed force or its commander) Enter (a country or region) so as to subjugate or occupy it: "Iraq's intention to invade Kuwait".
2. Enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, esp. with intrusive effect.



Gray Rift wrote:A lot of military personnel that I have encountered during my four years of training to be an officer seem to be the somewhat more disciplined spin-offs of the stereotypical dumb high school jock. They tend to be very anti-intellectual (whether it's an 18-year-old enlisted person who just finished high-school, or a 30-40 officer with a master's).

People do what they enjoy, if they can find a legal way where they can reduce the chance of them getting in trouble, all the better.
Gray Rift wrote:I don't want to be in a chain-of-command where these kinds of people are my superior officers, sending me, as an aviator, out on missions to kill other human beings.

Isn't that kinda a part of the job description?

I'm not going to saying you shouldn't enter.
If you do enter, you need to know that you are responsible for what you do.

I know it's a christian quote but still
Accept the things you cannot change, change the things you can and have the knowledge to know the difference.

If you go in, knowing there are things you won't like. Either focus on something else, or focus on fixing the issue, you can't be half hearted when it becomes such a big part of your life.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:37 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:The harsh truth is that if your primary concern is jus ad bellum then I struggle to name many conflicts in the last fifty years in which the US met anything like the critera for jus ad bellum.


Afghanistan- fascist/quasi-genocidal government harboring war criminals
Somalia- protecting the UN food aid and taking out wanted war criminals
Bosnia- trying to halt the genocide
Iraq- taking potshots at US planes, enforcing a few UN treaties including weapons inspections, and a few other things; though not the reason given for the war (WMD's man, because we like, know they are there, trust us man!). Oh, and the jus ad bellum for those first 3 would've ended a few months after the war, when, you know, the US could've left with some quasi-republic in place or something

The unjustifiable wars would be Grenada and Viet Nam. Going further back, I honestly don't know what the hell happened in the Philippines, but I know it wasn't pleasant. The Filipinos are somewhat pro-American now only because the Japanese Occupation was well, let's just say there is a reason that Japan does not have good relations with any East Asian country.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby TranquilFury » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:50 pm UTC

It's never a nice or good thing to declare war, on occasion it's a smart thing. When deciding whether to engage in war or not a leader should weigh the costs and risks of war against the potential benefits, and likelihood of success, whether the war is defensive or offensive doesn't really matter, what matters are the consequences of the decision. Our leaders are bad at weighing those tradeoffs, and worse, they prioritize their personal power and money over the goals of the country they lead.

I'll expand a bit about the "bad at weighing those tradeoffs" bit: Basic procedure for any war is using propaganda to puff the capabilities of your own military, the likelihood of success, and promote demonization of the enemy, so that it's justifiable to kill them. Maintaining public opinion in favor of the war is certainly an important step in securing your supply chain and may be beneficial to the morale of the grunts, but there are dire consequences for the whole campaign and country if those that make strategic decisions believe it.

As for when I believe violence is acceptable, I will always take the course of action that achieves my goals with the least amount of risk. Violence is inherently risky(individual and group), but sometimes the alternative is worse. Make sure that if you are exerting force, it's for your own cause, and the consequences are the most acceptable.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Tinman42 » Tue May 01, 2012 12:16 am UTC

Kulantan wrote:Commander-in-chief is not on the military promotion path.


I guess that is true in a sense, although military background has helped plenty of people achieve that position and positions that work directly with the president.

That being said, the thought that the president is the sole decision maker in regards to military decisions is wrong. Generals are direct advisers to the president and are almost always a huge factor in determining the presidents decisions.

Finally, lower ranking officers also make very important decisions. While a lieutenant can not decide whether or not to go to war, he can ensure that specific battles or encounters are handled well. If it is a good officer in that position (possibly the OP) he/she can save lives.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby BattleMoose » Tue May 01, 2012 2:17 am UTC

Firstly you are opening an incredibly difficult issue for yourself, so congratulations for that. It would be much easier to blindly serve and my impression is that most do and are unconcerned about the actual morality of any war they are involved in. You are, and this is an incredibly admirable trait to have.

I certainly don't believe war by its nature is immoral, one can fight just wars, any war for independence really and many others to be sure. But I am also much more concerned about the moral conduct of war rather than whether a war is moral, I find the latter can be a very awkward question and much harder to answer honestly.

So I would hazard, it could be moral to serve in the US Military if the US conducts war in a moral fashion. Of course this works for all militaries.

For me I see the biggest issue of the US conduct of wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan is the operations at Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp. There really can be no excuse for such abusive treatment of prisoners, military or civil. And I can only guess that such an attitude, from the highest level that organizes and operates such a detention camp is invasive throughout the whole military. Either which way, this is a question you have to answer for yourself.

If you haven't already I would strongly advise that you read up on the Milgram experiment.

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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby somebody already took it » Tue May 01, 2012 7:33 am UTC

One lens you could look at US Military ethics though is the cost per life saved. If you are a utilitarian you probably believe in making decisions that do the maximum amount of good, which generally means maximizing the number of lives saved. Assuming you think the US military saves lives on the whole (I don't), how many more lives do you think would be saved if some of the massive amounts of resources the military consumes were instead put towards humanitarian aid?
I think you should not serve. And if you are willing to critically study the US foreign policy (Noam Chomsky has some interesting things to say about it), and are, as you seem, a reasonable ethical person, I think that conclusion will be inescapable for you.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby aoeu » Tue May 01, 2012 9:38 am UTC

I'm sure there's a guy in line behind you ready. So the question is which of you should serve and which of you should pay taxes.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby rsquare » Tue May 01, 2012 2:54 pm UTC

You will soon take an oath that states "I take this obligation freely, without mental reservation or purpose of evasion..." Make sure you are taking the oath freely.

You bring up good questions. Questions that should have been addressed in your senior-year ROTC classes. If they haven't, discuss them with your instructors.

As I've moved up in my career, I've seen that senior leadership does have a very good grasp on the strategic view of warfare. Those leaders tend to be intellectual, somewhat conservative in their views, and care very deeply about their people. I'm sorry that you haven't met many of them.

Because our job is violence, we must be blunt about it. If that comes off as positive or pro-war, it's probably from those who have not gone into harm's way.

Your ability to ask these questions of yourself is a good thing. Don't lose that! Because you care, it will make you a very good officer. Remember, you're not commissioning as a pilot, you're commissioning as an officer in the US military. Your job is to be a leader and take care of those around you (above, below, and beside you). Best of luck to you!
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby somebody already took it » Wed May 02, 2012 6:42 am UTC

aoeu wrote:I'm sure there's a guy in line behind you ready. So the question is which of you should serve and which of you should pay taxes.

This is a false dilemma. What would prevent both people from serving?
The military generates additional wealth from the labor of those who serve it. To be concrete, a large portion of military labor involves setting up infrastructure.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby The Geoff » Wed May 02, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

This is from a UK point of view, and I know the cultures within the UK/US forces are different, so bear that in mind...

As a pilot you'll find things are different to a certain extent - you're in charge of the plane, and even if there's an Air Vice Marshall or equivalent sitting in the back, as soon as the engines are running you're in control and the brass do what you tell them, you're the only one responsible for the aircraft. You'll have rules of engagement and your mission orders, and it's up to you to work out the morality (whilst flying the plane!). Missile strike on a radar station next to a school? It's up to you to decide if you're good enough to avoid collateral damage. If you can't then you may find yourself in a bunch of hot water, but you still have the decision.

The one big factor at the moment is whether you agree with the current conflicts that are ongoing - you can make on-the-spot decisions with each flight you make, but you're not allowed to back off because you disagree with the overall conflict, and that would be the issue for me at the present time. You've got a job to do, and you do it as long as it's not illegal (including the RoE).

As mentioned, you'll have a lot of ethics classes in training, the military are well aware of the issues. Might be an idea to check on whether you can still back out at that point if the issues are insurmountable, and don't be afraid to, it takes more balls to quit the chance to fly an F35 because of your principles ;)
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby Alias1632 » Wed May 02, 2012 11:02 pm UTC

I served for 14 years and 2 tours (Medic, US Army). I'm not sure I can talk about my own experiences without wandering into self justification, but I can offer you the strongest arguments I've heard over the years:

Pro:

War is Hell. It's even worse if no one with a conscious or a brain is there.

Con:

Knowing putting yourself in a position to do potentially unjust things (like doing what your told by any politicians you can name without question) is different from self-defense.


The military has a weird relationship with intelligence; on one hand, it cares a lot about K:D ratios. As far back as WWII it got a lot of numbers showing that smart people kill better and it started to try and actively recruit them. On the other, it's not 100% sure what to do with them when it gets them.

My person experience makes me a little suspect about the whole "if you get rank, you can change it" thing. Yeah, your arms reach gets bigger, but your ability to understand whats going on seems to decrease proportionately, and the deeper you are into it the more incentive you have to not rock the boat. You can't even get mad at a guy who really is just trying to keep his family taken care of.

Military culture is and has been a very complex balance of forces. A lot of military culture is very traditional, and respect for tradition is not without its merit. That said, I think the forest has changed a LOT;

1. IT - In a broad sense, paperwork and bureaucracy are now possible like never before. Something worth giving though to is how that had changed things over the last 100 years. I'd start with when did the first manual get printed, when did promotion become a point system, and at what point does bureaucracy end up meaning that no one is ultimately responsible or able to make decisions. PowerPoint is newer then just about any weapon we use on the battle field.

2. Forensics/Surveillance - While its an ugly subject, getting beat up at the bar, fratricide, and desertion used to quietly function as checks in balances in military culture. None of the above are nearly as possible as any other time in history. I think this is a very serious and important subject and ask that you seriously take a minute to consider the implications of this.

3. Professionalism - Professionalism in peacetime seems to become "careerism". Enough said about that.

4. Support/Combat Arms Ratio - Combat units always have and will place a higher value on merit. While the Army is very proud of how small an amount of its personnel are CA at this point in history, the dark side to this is that this creates a huge part of military culture which loses this focus and the "family bond" that comes with it.

If not for our technological and financial advantages, I think these issues would have become critical and been addressed after terrible failures occurred.


All the above said, I believe in Heroes from first hand experience.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby mosc » Thu May 03, 2012 8:28 pm UTC

I have always rejected the notion that Military Service is fundamentally different than any other Job. You are paid to accomplish a task because it takes too much time for the existing labor force to handle or because you bring expertise to improve the capabilities of the labor force. You are not paid for your morality. The good employee follows the letter of the company policy. In the military's case, the company policy is the policy of the united states government. Your shareholders are anything with a financial interest in the GDP of the USA. You can choose what job to do in life, not what the Job is. When the Nurenburg war crime trials were run, the defense of "just following orders" was given for any and all actions. To me, the defense is valid in every single way except one. It has nothing to do with why they chose to do the job every morning.

If you choose to do the job you are proposing, then you do not get to make moral decisions on which orders you want to follow and which you don't. Your ability to follow the rules is paramount and like in many other jobs, carries the risks of life and death for failure to do so. Just like the firefighter, the coal miner, or even the race car driver. If you cannot morally execute the tasks required of you, then you should not do the job.

I commend you for your morality and your desire to see political change in the world around you but unless you are considering becoming a politician for a career, these things will not earn you a living. What you do for a Job is separate and it is important that you choose one you can accept. That said, I don't think you should "join it to change it".

My 0.02, hope it didn't offend.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby BattleMoose » Thu May 03, 2012 11:43 pm UTC

The question isn't "Is military service moral" but "Is serving in the US military moral?" The question is military specific.

But companies, like militaries can act immorally too. And when people are found to be acting outside the law, they are prosecuted. And most countries even have specific "whistle blower protection" laws to protect employees who report unlawful behvaiour within companies. While I certainly think something similar should be applied to the military, that would probably be a long way coming.

Regardless, it is expected, especially of officers, to act within the law, regardless of circumstance. And no one can be lawfully held accountable for refusing unlawful orders, although I recognize that is incredibly idealistic and refusing orders in any scenario would probably come at great personal cost.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby mosc » Fri May 04, 2012 4:48 am UTC

I think most of what you are talking about is pretty clearly against US Military Law. That doesn't mean it's always followed, but I don't think your point is very valid. People don't follow the rules but the institution itself should be judged by it's rules. Maybe judged as well on it's ability to see those rules are followed, but that's not really what you're getting at either.

Is serving in the US military morally justified? Certainly you will find many on both sides of that one and I think it's a personal decision the OP has to make. That's a very personal thing.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby BattleMoose » Fri May 04, 2012 6:41 am UTC

mosc wrote:I think most of what you are talking about is pretty clearly against US Military Law. That doesn't mean it's always followed, but I don't think your point is very valid. People don't follow the rules but the institution itself should be judged by it's rules. Maybe judged as well on it's ability to see those rules are followed, but that's not really what you're getting at either.


I generally have a bad time in understanding what people mean when a level of ambiguity exists. I understand your comment to relate to this comment that I made.

Regardless, it is expected, especially of officers, to act within the law, regardless of circumstance. And no one can be lawfully held accountable for refusing unlawful orders,


Some quotes form US military handbooks:

The US Field Manual (1956) states: “Members of the armed forces are bound to obey only lawful orders.”


The US Air Force Pamphlet (1976) states: “Members of the armed forces are bound to obey only lawful orders.”


The US Soldier’s Manual (1984) tells the soldier: “Although you are responsible for promptly obeying all legal orders issued by your leader, you are obligated to disobey an order to commit a crime.”


The US Naval Handbook (1995) provides:
Members of the naval service, like military members of all nations, must obey readily and strictly all lawful orders issued by a superior. Under both international law and U.S. law, an order to commit an obviously criminal act, such as the wanton killing of a noncombatant or the torture of a prisoner, is an unlawful order and will not relieve a subordinate of his responsibility to comply with the law of armed conflict. [emphasis in original]


Material produced by the US military is quite explicit, soldiers are bound to obey only lawful orders, are even obligated to disobey unlawful orders are can be held responsible for crimes they commit even while following orders.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby TranquilFury » Sat May 05, 2012 5:23 am UTC

The problem is that control of information is a big part of the chain of command, you don't always know whether or not the order is lawful.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby IcedT » Sat May 05, 2012 4:48 pm UTC

I'm from a long military tradition myself, and I'd already be an enlisted USMC reservist if not for a year-long medical hold. I've spent a lot of time around the kind of people you're concerned about, but I've also spent a lot of time around some extremely smart, courageous, disciplined people. One of the realities of military recruitment in any country is that you're always going to have both kinds, and it's important that the good people don't let the boneheads take the place over. And as an aviation officer you're going to be working with some of the brightest anyway- they might still be narrow-minded, but they'll at least have good technical and reasoning skills. You won't be dealing with cavemen.

Regarding morality, this is an issue everyone going into the military has to grapple with, and the answer is different for everyone. For me personally, I think the military man isn't responsible for any of the political processes that go into war. He's only responsible for prosecuting that war ethically. Which is easy to say when you're not in the fighting, but when all is said and done there's no sense in blaming yourself for things you had no influence over. You need to just get in there and do your job.
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Re: The Morality of Serving in the U.S. Military

Postby BattleMoose » Sun May 06, 2012 2:51 am UTC

TranquilFury wrote:The problem is that control of information is a big part of the chain of command, you don't always know whether or not the order is lawful.


This is actually an interesting point and one that did come up when I was reading up on this a few days ago. The requirements on the US military side (no idea what international law says on this) is that a soldier would only be considered liable if the order was obviously and without doubt illegal (I am paraphrasing I forget the exact wording but its in the same vein). Otherwise, the soldier is expected to follow orders without question, which to be honest, when trying to fight a war, seems like a reasonable approach.
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