'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

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'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Impeach » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:19 am UTC

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/carbon/

I just saw this now and had to show this to people. I am thoroughly tired and will get to this later. What the fucking fuck is this??
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:38 am UTC

I don't see anything particularly Orwellian or confusing there (well, not any more confusing that a typical government website designed with the erstwhile intent of informing people about government programs).

Are you sure that's the right link?
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby curtis95112 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:38 am UTC

Err.. you might want to tell us what issue you have against this. I've peeked but don't see anything too unusual. A summary would be nice too.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby PeterCai » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:39 am UTC

Impeach wrote:What the fucking fuck is this??

Carbon Tax

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Hawknc » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:43 am UTC

Specifically, it's a price on carbon which is fixed for the first three years, then market-dependent after that. A carbon price is widely regarded as one of the most effective, least authoritarian measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Australia's carbon pricing system only requires that the largest emitters pay for the carbon they emit; individual consumers don't pay it directly.

There's nothing Orwellian about it, so why don't you try calming down and telling us what your actual problem is, because if you're just going to foam at the mouth and chant "Juliar" you're in the wrong place.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:01 am UTC

Putting a price on pollution is Orwellian now? Please remind me which book that's reminiscent of, because I can't remember the lengthy passage in 1984 where they talk about attempting to include environmental responsibility in the form of an additional cost.

But as it stands, what's wrong with it? Out of curiosity, what curiosity, what country are you from (cultures are different in different countries, and it helps to tailor responses)?
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Diadem » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

I don't like a market-dependent price on carbon. The tax on carbon should be linked to the environmental damage it causes. A clean-up cost, so to speak. But other than that, I see no problems in this proposal.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Silknor » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:20 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I don't like a market-dependent price on carbon. The tax on carbon should be linked to the environmental damage it causes. A clean-up cost, so to speak.


A cap and trade system is equivalent to a carbon tax*. If a $5/ton tax leads to X tons being emitted, then setting a cap of X tons leads to a permit price of $5/ton. If we know what level of emissions is sustainable, then we can cap it there and let the market figure out the price, which is what markets do best. If, however, we have a reliable estimate of how much it will cost to clean up** the carbon emissions, then we can set the price that will lead to a given level of emissions. As I'm inclined to believe that we have better information on what carbon levels are sustainable than we do knowledge of the either the economic consequences of the future impacts or the costs of reducing emissions in each year given changing technology, I prefer the former option.

*Specifically, an auction system. If you say, allocate permits based on a formula and then allow trading, the amount of carbon emitted for a given price is the same, but there's a different distribution of the implicit tax burden.

**Which could be by offsetting the emissions, reducing them at the source, or just emitting them and compensating those who incur losses because of climate change.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Derek » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:22 pm UTC

The site isn't about the carbon tax, it's about "carbon price claims":
What is a carbon price claim?

Carbon price claims could appear in TV or radio advertising, websites, on product labels or in contracts and catalogues. They could also be made by a salesperson over the phone, via email or in person on the shop floor.

Businesses might make claims about the impact of the carbon price such as:

‘Beat the Carbon Tax – Buy Now!’
‘Our prices will be hit hard when the carbon price comes in’.
‘Our prices have increased by X% because of the carbon price’.

I think what the OP is calling Orwellian is things like this:
The ACCC’s focus is to ensure businesses do not make misleading claims about price increases as a result of the carbon price. The ACCC can act against businesses who contravene the Act.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:26 pm UTC

So it's Orwellian to have an organisation designed to make sure consumers aren't lied to or mistreated? Wow, I totally got the wrong message from 1984.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Djehutynakht » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:04 pm UTC

yurell wrote:So it's Orwellian to have an organisation designed to make sure consumers aren't lied to or mistreated? Wow, I totally got the wrong message from 1984.



It's Orwellian to make sure that consumers are mistreated. Those filthy capitalist pigs and their tophats. You shouldn't be a consumer! You should be a producer!

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Diadem » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:36 pm UTC

yurell wrote:So it's Orwellian to have an organisation designed to make sure consumers aren't lied to or mistreated? Wow, I totally got the wrong message from 1984.

Well that was a major theme in 1984 wasn't it? They had an entire ministry (The Ministry of Truth) devoted to the task of editing reality so that nothing they had ever said was ever wrong. :)


But yeah, I still don't find anything Orwellian in this.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Hawknc » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:23 am UTC

Derek wrote:The site isn't about the carbon tax, it's about "carbon price claims":

Good catch, my apologies to the OP. Though now I'm even more curious about what the problem is, because making sure businesses don't outright lie in their advertising isn't exactly groundbreaking legislation.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby PeterCai » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:44 am UTC

Derek wrote:The site isn't about the carbon tax, it's about "carbon price claims":

Oh ok, my bad OP. Now I sort of see your point

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:49 pm UTC

yurell wrote:So it's Orwellian to have an organisation designed to make sure consumers aren't lied to or mistreated? Wow, I totally got the wrong message from 1984.



Now before I start running my mouth, I will say that i did not read what the OP posted(mostly because It was a link to a page with just more links. I.E. a barrier to the information)

but, it IS Orwellian for the government to control information, so If a company wants to say

Bla Bla Bla about the carbon price


It is Orwellian for the government to simply declare that false, and punish the company for it.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:52 pm UTC

IANAL, but I don't think governments can simply declare companies to be breaking the law. I'm sure the company has the option of going to court.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:03 pm UTC

sam_i_am wrote:but, it IS Orwellian for the government to control information, so If a company wants to say

Bla Bla Bla about the carbon price


It is Orwellian for the government to simply declare that false, and punish the company for it.


How is that Orwellian? We already have false advertising laws — does that mean that Australia is already an Orwellian totalitarian state? What defines 'Orwellian' in your eyes — I've always taken it to mean of or pertaining to the works of Orwell, particularly the state of the totalitarian regime in his novel 1984.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:09 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
sam_i_am wrote:but, it IS Orwellian for the government to control information, so If a company wants to say

Bla Bla Bla about the carbon price


It is Orwellian for the government to simply declare that false, and punish the company for it.


How is that Orwellian? We already have false advertising laws — does that mean that Australia is already an Orwellian totalitarian state? What defines 'Orwellian' in your eyes — I've always taken it to mean of or pertaining to the works of Orwell, particularly the state of the totalitarian regime in his novel 1984.



In the book 1984, the protagonist worked for an organization called the "ministry of truth" or MiniTrue for short. That organization was responsible for destroying evidence of unfavorable information, and declaring that information untrue. It also made up it's own stories favorable to the party, and declared those the truth.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:17 pm UTC

So preventing companies from outright lying is equivalent to controlling every single source of information, outright lying about it and changing all historical documents to maintain that lie? I don't buy that at all.
Yes, 1984 had a Ministry of Truth which looked at how information is conveyed, but that's where all the similarity stops. If you're calling false advertising laws Orwellian, you may as well call any random country Orwellian — you have a military? Ministry of Peace! You have a national food administration? Ministry of Plenty! You have a penal system? Ministry of Love! You have any laws prohibiting the free transfer of information (e.g. slander)? Ministry of Truth!
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:44 pm UTC

I am always amused by how serious people take certain works of fiction nowadays.

The fact of the matter is that Orwellian things happen all of the time. This is not necessarily anything to worry a whole lot about. George Orwell wasn't a profit or anything; he was a Science Fiction author.


Demonizing Pariahs, whether correctly or not, is Orwellian
Reporting your neighbors for suspicious activity is Orwellian.
Denying the Holocaust is Orwellian
Preventing people from Denying the Holocaust is Orwellian.
The wars with IranIraqAfganistanIraqAfganstan Iran are Orwellian.
most claims about how everything current is how it has always been(traditional marriage for example) are Orwellian

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

yurell wrote:So preventing companies from outright lying is equivalent to controlling every single source of information, outright lying about it and changing all historical documents to maintain that lie? I don't buy that at all.
Yes, 1984 had a Ministry of Truth which looked at how information is conveyed, but that's where all the similarity stops. If you're calling false advertising laws Orwellian, you may as well call any random country Orwellian — you have a military? Ministry of Peace! You have a national food administration? Ministry of Plenty! You have a penal system? Ministry of Love! You have any laws prohibiting the free transfer of information (e.g. slander)? Ministry of Truth!



Also, How do you suppose the government will enforce company's honesty?

Will they compare their own statistics against the companies statistics? and if they do, who's to say that the government's own research is more legitimate than the companies?

Will they punish companies for making simple mistakes, or will they somehow have to demonstrate that the company consciously made false claims?, and how would you prove that?

Will companies have to send all packaging and media they release to a government agency for approval before-hand?

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Sizik » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:06 pm UTC

You'd have answers to those questions if you read the site.

excerpt wrote:The ACCC and carbon price claims

The ACCC’s carbon price role includes:
  • informing and educating businesses, including through issuing guidance, about their responsibilities under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (the Act) when making a carbon price claim.
  • raising awareness amongst consumers about their rights under the Australian Consumer Law (ACL).
  • investigating and, where appropriate, taking action against businesses who engage in practices that contravene the ACL.
The ACCC’s focus is to ensure businesses do not make misleading claims about price increases as a result of the carbon price. The ACCC can act against businesses who contravene the ACL.

The ACCC’s role does not include formally monitoring, setting or restricting price increases linked to the carbon price. The ACCC cannot prevent a business from putting up its prices as a result of the carbon price.

What action can the ACCC take?

The ACCC can investigate and take action against businesses that make false or misleading claims.

Some of the ACCC’s powers include:
  • requiring a business to provide documents and information that respond to a substantiation notice.
  • issuing infringement notices of $6600 for a corporation (or $66 000 for a listed corporation) where it considers a claim is false or misleading.
  • taking legal action against a business for breaches of the ACL.
  • seeking court-imposed penalties of up to $1.1 million for serious breaches of the ACL or injunctions to stop a business from making certain carbon price claims.
For more information about the ACCC’s enforcement powers see the ACCC Compliance and Enforcement Policy.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:35 pm UTC

So the government's actions will be retro-active instead of pro-active. Least important of the questions is answered.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:53 pm UTC

Will they punish companies for making simple mistakes, or will they somehow have to demonstrate that the company consciously made false claims?, and how would you prove that?
So, do you actually want the legal details, or would evidence that systems exist that solve this problem pretty well be sufficient?

And if you want actual legal details, I'd advise hiring a lawyer.

If not, it could be similar to a slander lawsuit, where various defenses (which range from "I'm right" through to "I had reason to believe I was right" to "parody of a public figure") would be sufficient. Imaging a system whereby it would be adjudicated wouldn't be all that hard. Or similarly, false advertising laws in general, where you make claims about the product which turn out not to be true -- if you had strong reason to think they are true, you might get off the hook (and could demonstrate that you had such strong reason).

Note, not a lawyer, just puzzled why you (seem) to think that this is an unsolvable conundrum.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby sam_i_am » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:01 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Will they punish companies for making simple mistakes, or will they somehow have to demonstrate that the company consciously made false claims?, and how would you prove that?
So, do you actually want the legal details, or would evidence that systems exist that solve this problem pretty well be sufficient?

And if you want actual legal details, I'd advise hiring a lawyer.

If not, it could be similar to a slander lawsuit, where various defenses (which range from "I'm right" through to "I had reason to believe I was right" to "parody of a public figure") would be sufficient. Imaging a system whereby it would be adjudicated wouldn't be all that hard. Or similarly, false advertising laws in general, where you make claims about the product which turn out not to be true -- if you had strong reason to think they are true, you might get off the hook (and could demonstrate that you had such strong reason).

Note, not a lawyer, just puzzled why you (seem) to think that this is an unsolvable conundrum.



I didn't say that it is unsolvable. I just said that it is Orwellian, as in consistent with a work of fiction that George Orwell wrote.


And just because there exists a right way to do something(like this), doesn't mean that there aren't wrong ways to do it.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Hawknc » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:14 pm UTC

Thing is, without the ability to prevent companies from outright lying about the carbon price, guess what companies do? They outright lie about the carbon price. Again, still waiting for OP to explain why laws consistent with current legislation around false advertising are "stranger than fiction".
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

I don't think you mean he word "consistent" do you? Minitru wasn't aimed at actually defending the truth, nor was speaking the truth a defence: do you have evidence that for this law, speaking the truth won't be a defence?

There are cases where laws state that speaking the truth (as a defence for slander) is not a defence. Calling that Orwellian seems to make some sense. But I'm really not seeing anything here that would justify saying "this is Orwellian". And you aren't providing anything convincing.

Based off of that, my current hypothesis is that you are wrong. As is the original poster. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby curtis95112 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:25 am UTC

sam_i_am wrote:I didn't say that it is unsolvable. I just said that it is Orwellian, as in consistent with a work of fiction that George Orwell wrote.
sam_i_am wrote:The fact of the matter is that Orwellian things happen all of the time. This is not necessarily anything to worry a whole lot about.


Also, it would be nice if you stopped using the word 'Orwellian' as if it didn't have negative connotations. Especially considering your sensationalist title that clearly shows you know how the word sounds.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Derek » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:03 am UTC

Putting aside the obviously inappropriate "Orwellian" label, I do find this law somewhat objectionable. In particular, things like: "The ACCC’s focus is to ensure businesses do not make misleading claims about price increases as a result of the carbon price." Obviously a carbon tax is going to cause an increase in prices, and there will be a question of how much is passed on to consumers, and how much is eaten by the energy companies. The energy companies will of course want to claim that most of it is passed on to the customers, so that those customers will oppose these laws, and the environmentalists/pro-carbon tax politicians will want to claim that the companies will eat most of the tax. In theory, this law prevents the energy companies from exaggerating how much of the price is passed on to customers, but in practice I see that this could easily be abused to prevent energy companies from even telling the truth, and force them to understate the amount of the tax being passed to consumers.

I don't know how likely this is to actually occur, and it's not exactly a huge deal, but do customers really need this protection? Are they too stupid to compare their own energy bills from year-to-year? In cases like this, I prefer to side with freedom of speech, even if it allows some false advertising.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:10 am UTC

Derek wrote:Are they too stupid to compare their own energy bills from year-to-year?


In general, no but they are too lazy. When there's the constant lies and propaganda suffusing the environment, people generally believe it rather than going through the effort of finding out the truth — Fox News is the epitome of this in the US.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:15 am UTC

You cannot look at your electricity bill and tell how much of the changes are caused by regulatory decisions.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Hawknc » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:06 am UTC

Derek wrote:In theory, this law prevents the energy companies from exaggerating how much of the price is passed on to customers, but in practice I see that this could easily be abused to prevent energy companies from even telling the truth, and force them to understate the amount of the tax being passed to consumers.

Well, no...companies are entirely entitled to pass 0% or 100% of the cost of the carbon price to consumers, that's their choice. What they're not entitled to do is raise their prices by 500% of what the carbon price costs them, then tell consumers it's because of the carbon price. Basically as long as the claims companies make have a truthful basis, it won't even be a thing.

From http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.ph ... Id/1039050:
Under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, you must not make false, misleading or deceptive claims about the price of goods and services. This includes false, misleading or deceptive claims linking price rises to the carbon price.

As a business, you are entitled to increase your prices as you see fit – it is business as usual. Leading up to and following the start of the carbon price, the same legal obligations not to mislead or deceive apply.
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Trasvi » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:17 pm UTC

Derek wrote:I don't know how likely this is to actually occur, and it's not exactly a huge deal, but do customers really need this protection? Are they too stupid to compare their own energy bills from year-to-year? In cases like this, I prefer to side with freedom of speech, even if it allows some false advertising.


There is a lot of fearmongering going on by groups with vested interests against the carbon tax (the opposition government, mining companies) that are claiming that the price of XX will skyrocket by YY%. They give examples of some product which is forecast to increase in price (electricity bills) claim that this is due to the carbon tax, when in actual fact 75% of the price increase is due to other factors. Despite the government's projections otherwise, the other groups are doing a better job at getting their message across.
This is protecting consumers by allowing them to make complaints when a sparky charges double his previous bill 'because of the carbon tax'.

I'm reasonably sure we had the same thing occur when the GST was introduced.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Vaniver » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:10 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I don't like a market-dependent price on carbon. The tax on carbon should be linked to the environmental damage it causes. A clean-up cost, so to speak. But other than that, I see no problems in this proposal.
Prices convey information. Markets are mechanisms by which people provide information to alter the price. If someone can do it for cheaper than the current price, prices will drop- but if the costs rise, so will the price. Similarly, if there's a fixed capacity that more people want to use, the price will increase.

The issue with environmental markets is creating agents that properly model the environmental damage. With a fish stock, for example, ownership can be auctioned off- and then the new owner makes decisions on how many fish to harvest each year to maximize net present value. The problems with carbon markets are that carbon appears to be a stock problem, but many proposals treat it as a flow problem, and that the wealth is global, and thus very hard to divide. But both of those problems are independent of having a market set the future price for carbon production (and its mirror, carbon sequestration).
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby VectorZero » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:00 pm UTC

Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby Impeach » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:17 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Thing is, without the ability to prevent companies from outright lying about the carbon price, guess what companies do? They outright lie about the carbon price. Again, still waiting for OP to explain why laws consistent with current legislation around false advertising are "stranger than fiction".


Apologies, folks, for taking so long to reply back about this. I moved recently and still haven't gotten internet up and running. As far as the word "Orwellian" goes, obviously I didn't mean 'directly from the pages of 1984, but more something that makes clear progress to a system of centralized/dictatorial government that is not for the people, by the people.

The purpose of this law is meaningless to me. The content is what I am focused on. This law doesn't give the government 'the ability to prevent companies from outright lying' it gives government the ability to unilaterally decide what THE truth is and fine businesses over am million dollars for saying anything other than that. They admit that the carbon tax (something I wholly disagree with but that is a separate issue) probably will cause prices to rise but If they feel that a business has implied that the carbon tax is responsible for more of this price rise than the government thinks, WHAM million dollar fine. Are y'all really that trusting of government that you will allow them to do that? Keeping your rights and making sure government's laws and programs stay reasonable and don't morph into this kind of absurdity is NOT mutually exclusive with having a government that actually solves problems. If the government really does try to solve a problem, there are ways to do it that don't involve crap like this. I for one would rather risk a business making a misleading claim about WHY something is true (that prices went up) than agree to give government this kind of abstract power and just hope they don't abuse it.
doogly wrote:Silly France, you can't just make up your own definitions for what fundamental human rights are, those are self evident and endowed within humanity by our creator god. Listen to America on this one, we got this shit on lock.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:49 pm UTC

Are you under the impression that penalties for certain forms of lying are an innovation in law?
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby blowfishhootie » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:54 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Are you under the impression that penalties for certain forms of lying are an innovation in law?


Did you actually read anything in the previous post? I think the problem the poster has is summed up pretty clearly in this sentence (s)he wrote:

This law doesn't give the government 'the ability to prevent companies from outright lying' it gives government the ability to unilaterally decide what THE truth is and fine businesses over am million dollars for saying anything other than that.


Don't get me wrong, I don't personally have an opinion on carbon tax laws or whatever this is about, but I do agree that the government shouldn't just be able to arbitrarily decide what everyone has to think the truth is and then punish those who disagree with it. If a court system run independent of the government lawyers who would make this claim of lying find that a company has lied, that's different, but from what others have said in this thread (full disclosure: I didn't check out the link), it doesn't sound like that's the case here.

It can only be considered lying, in my opinion if all parties involved agree on what the truth is, or at least agree to operate by the same definition of the truth. It sounds (again, based on comments in this thread) like the problem here is the Australian government more or less arbitrarily deciding how much of a price increase in a good is the result of government regulation, and how much is the result of corporate profit ambitions, or something. If corporate lying is a serious issue in this area, it should be prosecuted, but in courts, not by some arbitrary executive panel.

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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby yurell » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:03 am UTC

Hang on, that doesn't sound right. I was under the impression that it's the ACCC (not the government) that investigates whether you're lying (which they can do, because they know the price of carbon and can hence investigate upper-bounds and -estimates in cost), just like they do for any other claim, and if they determine you are, they're the ones who fine you. All they're doing is enforcing the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, and I can't find anything in the initial link that indicates otherwise.

Edit: Also, the ACCC doesn't "arbitrarily decide what everyone has to think the truth is"; they have as a premise that there exists an objective reality, and that these claims can be tested and disproven.
Otherwise bullshit like "this drug will make you immortal!" would be allowed in advertising. Who are they to tell us that that's not the truth?! They're being arbitrary!
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Re: 'stranger than fiction' Orwellian laws in Australia

Postby blowfishhootie » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:14 am UTC

yurell wrote:Hang on, that doesn't sound right. I was under the impression that it's the ACCC (not the government)


The ACCC is an agency of the Australian government. Did you think it was a private company issuing fines or something?

Edit: Also, the ACCC doesn't "arbitrarily decide what everyone has to think the truth is"; they have as a premise that there exists an objective reality, and that these claims can be tested and disproven.
Otherwise bullshit like "this drug will make you immortal!" would be allowed in advertising. Who are they to tell us that that's not the truth?! They're being arbitrary!


Did you read what I wrote? I'm not sure you did. I said the company should be able to go to court, not that they should be able to do whatever they want. If companies think the truth is something different from what the ACCC claims, they can offer their competing version in court.

I wrote: "If corporate lying is a serious issue in this area, it should be prosecuted, but in courts, not by some arbitrary executive panel." I really have no idea how I can be any clearer than that.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this anymore, because like I admitted, I actually haven't read anything about this other than what's been said in the thread. If companies do have a chance to defend themselves in court, then I don't see the problem, it just seems to me like the complaint is that they don't. I just thought the post I responded to was even more of a ridiculous mischaracterization of the author's argument than your post was of mine, so I said something.


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