"The __ word"

[setzer777]

Isn't it kind of bizarre that we use phrases like "The N word" or "The C word"?

I mean, I totally understand the reasons for not saying certain words - but it's somehow better to say something that not only conveys the same meaning, but actually indirectly conveys the exact same syllables to the recipient's mind? Doesn't the listener mentally translate it, making it the same as if you had said the word itself?

Is it a way to properly acknowledge the taboo? Is the nature of the negative associations such that indirectly referencing the word lessens the impact? It does actually feel different when I hear the censored version, but I don't really understand why that is the case.

[iamspen]

I get annoyed when the news media uses those euphemisms. It destroys any objectivity about the story they're trying to relay. Bizarre though it may be, those euphemisms do somehow eliminate the shock of those words. Consider this: would the average viewer be more horrified at, "Rick Perry's ranch name contains the N-word," or, "Rick Perry's ranch is called, 'Niggerhead?"

[Роберт]

In general, isn't it because the offense is rather arbitrary?

In the case of some words, like n*****, it's not just the word that is considered offensive, though. It's racism, and use of that word is linked heavily to racism. By censoring it, you are acknowledging that the racism is offensive and not propagating it yourself. If you say something racists, it's still offensive.

But stuff like sh*t? It's just arbitrary, IMHO, and since you didn't actually do it, it's not as offensive. Of course, how much it lessens the offense varies from person to person. Some don't care either way, and some are highly offended either way.

[Adam H]

But stuff like sh*t? It's just arbitrary, IMHO, and since you didn't actually do it, it's not as offensive. Of course, how much it lessens the offense varies from person to person. Some don't care either way, and some are highly offended either way.

Why did you censor 'shit', if you don't mind me asking?

[setzer777]

Yeah, the strange thing is in situations like what iamspen is talking about. If I'm very unambiguously condeming something racist, I could say:

"That piece of shit actually thinks it's funny to yell "nigger" at people while driving down the street*"

I actually feel uncomfortable typing that out, and would feel vastly more uncomfortable speaking it aloud. Censoring it somehow does lessen the impact - but does it also lessen the impact of the condemnation? Why does it feel more correct to censor a word even when quoting someone for the explicit purpose of condemning them?

*Sadly, I actually knew someone in high school who did this on the bus.

[Роберт]

But stuff like sh*t? It's just arbitrary, IMHO, and since you didn't actually do it, it's not as offensive. Of course, how much it lessens the offense varies from person to person. Some don't care either way, and some are highly offended either way.

Why did you censor 'shit', if you don't mind me asking?

Same reason I censored n*****. It's my typical language pattern.

[sam_i_am]

shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker tits

nigger


Offended? Good.

[AvatarIII]

Protecting children that may not have heard the word is probably the main reason why "the _ word" is used, but I think a lot of the time swear words sound harsh. cunt is especially harsh, being a short, quick to say word, and having a hard first and last letter, fuck and shit are slightly less harsh and therefore less taboo by starting with a soft letter. Nigger is a little different being a two syllable word, but it often depends on how you say a word to determine how bad it sounds. Nigger can be said with the emphasis on "nigg" or "er" for a different feel.
Also context is very important, for example, to say shit as a curse, is different than saying something is "the shit". Your could say "fuck off" or "lets fuck" one is negative, the other positive, same weird but different connotation. Nigger is used as racist slur, but also to mean friend! Most swear words have this, but I can't think of one for cunt, but it is considered the worst swear word so I'm not surprised.

[sam_i_am]

Protecting children that may not have heard the word is probably the main reason why "the _ word" is used, but I think a lot of the time swear words sound harsh. cunt is especially harsh, being a short, quick to say word, and having a hard first and last letter, fuck and shit are slightly less harsh and therefore less taboo by starting with a soft letter. Nigger is a little different being a two syllable word, but it often depends on how you say a word to determine how bad it sounds. Nigger can be said with the emphasis on "nigg" or "er" for a different feel.
Also context is very important, for example, to say shit as a curse, is different than saying something is "the shit". Your could say "fuck off" or "lets fuck" one is negative, the other positive, same weird but different connotation. Nigger is used as racist slur, but also to mean friend! Most swear words have this, but I can't think of one for cunt, but it is considered the worst swear weird so i'm not surprised.

"cunt" is only considered more offensive than "nigger" in an academic sense.

Next time someone tells you "but cunt is more offensive than the N-Word"

respond with "Cunt is more offensive than WHAT" and see which word they're more reluctant to say.

[Thesh]

Protecting children that may not have heard the word...

I thought the point of not swearing around children is because we don't want children to start swearing, and the point of using "the _ word" is because the word itself is generally considered offensive.

[Djehutynakht]

"The whole business of swearing, especially English swearing, is
mysterious. Of its very nature swearing is as irrational as magic--
indeed, it is a species of magic. But there is also a paradox about it,
namely this: Our intention in swearing is to shock and wound, which we do
by mentioning something that should be kept secret--usually something to
do with the sexual functions. But the strange thing is that when a word is
well established as a swear word, it seems to lose its original meaning;
that is, it loses the thing that made it into a swear word. A word becomes
an oath because it means a certain thing, and, because it has become an
oath, it ceases to mean that thing. For example--. The Londoners do not
now use, or very seldom use, this word in its original meaning; it is on
their lips from morning till night, but it is a mere expletive and means
nothing. Similarly with--, which is rapidly losing its original sense. One
can think of similar instances in French--for example--, which is now a
quite meaningless expletive.

The word--, also, is still used occasionally in Paris, but the people
who use it, or most of them, have no idea of what it once meant. The rule
seems to be that words accepted as swear words have some magical character,
which sets them apart and makes them useless for ordinary conversation.

Words used as insults seem to be governed by the same paradox as swear
words. A word becomes an insult, one would suppose, because it means
something bad; but m practice its insult-value has little to do with its
actual meaning. For example, the most bitter insult one can offer to a
Londoner is 'bastard'--which, taken for what it means, is hardly an
insult at all. And the worst insult to a woman, either in London or Paris,
is 'cow'; a name which might even be a compliment, for cows are among the
most likeable of animals. Evidently a word is an insult simply because it
is meant as an insult, without reference to its dictionary meaning; words,
especially swear words, being what public opinion chooses to make them. In
this connexion it is interesting to see how a swear word can change
character by crossing a frontier. In England you can print 'JE M'EN FOILS'
without protest from anybody. In France you have to print it 'JE M'EN F--'.
Or, as another example, take the word 'barnshoot'--a corruption of the
Hindustani word BAHINCHUT. A vile and unforgivable insult in India, this
word is a piece of gentle badinage in England. I have even seen it in a
school text-book; it was in one of Aristophanes' plays, and the annotator
suggested it as a rendering of some gibberish spoken by a Persian
ambassador. Presumably the annotator knew what BAHINCHUT meant. But,
because it was a foreign word, it had lost its magical swear-word quality
and could be printed. "
-George Orwell
Down and Out in Paris and London

[krogoth]

I really never found most of these words offensive in the "you give words power" sort of sense. Me and my brother call each other cunts all the time, he calls me a 'little cunt' whenever I make fun of his shorter stature, a sort of irony I suppose. You're a cunt I'm a cunt everyone is a cunt, but it's no big deal.

I suppose it comes from the endearment of comrade(re)(sp?).
Personally I'm offended I can't call people things they are allowed to call themself.
If people want to call me a cracker that's fine with me, I am a white person and that's all the connotation I let that word hold. It's a choice to be offended by words.

[Djehutynakht]

Personally I'm offended I can't call people things they are allowed to call themself.
If people want to call me a cracker that's fine with me, I am a white person and that's all the connotation I let that word hold. It's a choice to be offended by words.

Mhm, I hate that. Especially with the whole "N word" thing.
Although, quite honestly, I think the word is truly evolving into a non racially motivated word. I hear people of all races using it in some spheres nowadays.

I have fun fighting double standards. I've almost demanded to be referred to as a "European-American" instead of white, if I could be bothered with the effort.

Meh. Stuff evolves.

Although like you were saying, sometimes people just use it as a reference word. For instance, the whole debate about "the N word" in Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. People complain that it's racist and horrible... quite honestly, it really isn't. If used in a really mean and harsh way, maybe, but in the context of Huck Finn, for instance, it was literally just a word (a slang version of the word "Negro"... you know, "Black") which they used to refer to a specific race. Of course, it could be used as an insult (primarily due to the idea that the race was inferior), but in common everyday use it appears to just be a common word.

Everyone was racist. It just so happened that some racists were more powerful than other racists.

[AvatarIII]

Protecting children that may not have heard the word is probably the main reason why "the _ word" is used, but I think a lot of the time swear words sound harsh. cunt is especially harsh, being a short, quick to say word, and having a hard first and last letter, fuck and shit are slightly less harsh and therefore less taboo by starting with a soft letter. Nigger is a little different being a two syllable word, but it often depends on how you say a word to determine how bad it sounds. Nigger can be said with the emphasis on "nigg" or "er" for a different feel.
Also context is very important, for example, to say shit as a curse, is different than saying something is "the shit". Your could say "fuck off" or "lets fuck" one is negative, the other positive, same weird but different connotation. Nigger is used as racist slur, but also to mean friend! Most swear words have this, but I can't think of one for cunt, but it is considered the worst swear word so i'm not surprised.

"cunt" is only considered more offensive than "nigger" in an academic sense.

Next time someone tells you "but cunt is more offensive than the N-Word"

respond with "Cunt is more offensive than WHAT" and see which word they're more reluctant to say.

I never even used the word "offensive" because how much offence someone takes to a word varies from person to person, I said it's considered the worst, because out of context, it is. it's a word with no redeeming features, and no contextual way to make it positive.

[K-R]

"The other day I saw the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper. All they had to do, to get the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper, was spell it 'f**k'. Doesn't that still say 'fuck'? I'm pretty sure that still says 'fuck'. In fact, 'f**k' gets used to mean 'fuck' so much, that 'f**k' actually means 'fuck' more than 'fuck' means 'fuck'.

Interestingly, the protection afforded the word 'fuck' by the humble asterisk doesn't extend to other words, even seemingly innocuous ones. Like, for example, 'finger'. Normally, that word would be fine. But in a sentence such as 'I want to finger your mum', some people would consider that word offensive and worthy of censorship. But you would not get that word on the front of the paper by spelling it 'f**ger'. That's because it's the context in which the word is used, not the word itself, that is offensive." --Tim Minchin

[Dr. Diaphanous]

"The other day I saw the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper. All they had to do, to get the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper, was spell it 'f**k'. Doesn't that still say 'fuck'? I'm pretty sure that still says 'fuck'. In fact, 'f**k' gets used to mean 'fuck' so much, that 'f**k' actually means 'fuck' more than 'fuck' means 'fuck'.

I don't think it does say fuck. Swear words like fuck do have emotional impact for a lot of people. Society has conditioned them from birth that saying that word is wrong. It might not make you feel uncomfortable but it does make a lot of people feel uncomfortable. If I used "fuck" and "shit" when speaking to my grandmother, for example, I'm sure she would become very unhappy.

A discussion about a word can still take place by using asterisks, which I think does greatly reduce the emotional impact, while unambiguously identifying the word.

Also, "n*gger" is different in a way because just by using it you imply that you have certain assumptions about race.

[Trebla]

It's a choice to be offended by words.

You're applying cold, steely logic to an emotional response. I don't disagree, but unfortunately, that doesn't work for everyone.

The OP wrote that he was uncomfortable typing (or speaking) certain words... he was introspective enough to question why he felt uncomfortable and couldn't come up with a good reason. Most people don't have that same thought process... if a word makes them uncomfortable to say or hear, that's a swear word. To an extent, it's a generational thing. Anyone under 40 or so (an arbitrary guess) was probably raised completely desensitized to George Carlin's dirty words, there's no discomfort in saying or hearing them to us, but the older generation has that same ingrained core reaction to fuck or shit. Obviously this isn't strictly generational, but it appears to trend that way. I wonder how 10-15 year old kids react to the words that make Gen X/Y (or whatever the fuck we call ourselves) uncomfortable...

Unrelated: My daughter's school (preschool) considers "butt" to be a swear word... Boggles the mind, it does, I'm not sure what term they'd prefer.

[poxic]

Relevant link: "I Don't Care if You're Offended. Some thousand words long. I'll try to pick out the main idea, more or less.

A racial slur against blacks might or might not offend you, or anyone else present. It's interesting to sit around and philosophise about that.

The reason "the n-word" has so much force, though, is because blacks have been historically treated with contempt by whites. If there was no oppression/contempt/discrimination, then there would be little reason to use or not use the word. Cracker and continental, for example, simply don't have the same force. White people are more or less immune to slurs based on race, at least in places where they are dominant. Being called a white person hasn't generally been an insult.

If I use the slur, I'm just one more white person in a very, very long line who is using a word that has carried my race's historic (and often current) hatred for another. We can't get the chamber to stop echoing by continuing to repeat what's going around.

Similar issue with cunt. I don't have much of a problem with the word, but again it carries a historic weight of use against a group of people. What's the worst insult you can come up with based on masculine anatomy? (Cocksucker doesn't count -- it's a slur against gay men, not against men in general.) There isn't anything with the force of cunt for the same reason that there isn't a slur against whites with much force. Being called male hasn't generally been an insult.

And some other stuff but hey it's waaaaay late and I need to go to bed now. G'night.

[RoberII]

@Krogoth and djehutynakht

Can I get some white male privilege up in this thread?

"Aww, bohoo, poor me, I can't sing along to rap songs, I have to show sensitivity and common decency, bawww."

Seriously though, it's not a double standard at all - it's a very simple standard of it being acceptable for people of a group to reappropriate a word, but not acceptable for people outside that group to use that word about them. "Gay" is another good example, "bitch" is definitely moving in that direction as well for women, maybe 'slut' as well (although unfortunately probably not). But still, these words are not nearly as tabooed as the n-word, and with good reason.

Ninja'd: What poxic said.

[setzer777]

Yeah, I agree with what poxic said. My question is more about the following sentences:

"He called her a cunt."

"He called her a c***."

"He called her the c-word."

Are all three of the above sentences different from each other in connotation (they certainly seem to be denoting the exact same thing). What's being conveyed through the use of asterisks or euphemisms?

Also, does this only apply when you're not using the word to attack someone? Or is saying:

"You're a c***."

actually less harmful than the uncensored version?

[engr]

Isn't it kind of bizarre that we use phrases like "The N word" or "The C word"?

Yes. Yes, it is.

[CorruptUser]

The Klan used to refer to Hispanics as "Brown N-", Asians as "Yellow N-", and Jews as "White N-". Does that mean that Jews can call other people "White N-", just not "N-"? It's their word, it's time to take it back!

[Iceman]

I think it comes down to why the words are problem.

I've heard people say that its offensive to simply be reminded of the slavery period and racism, therefore any refrence to it at all should be offensive to people who feel that way, whether you say 'Nigger', 'N word', 'N*****', or any reference to its existence whatsoever, so all forms of it would have to go.

Similar to things like rape, the objection is generally that 'reminding anyone of this term' is wrong, as observed in how people around here 'trigger warning' basically anything that could remind someone of it. So there again no matter how you say it or in what context would be offensive.

But another word, like maybe faggot, is really only generally termed offensive as an insult and meant offensively. So F***** may be fine when refer to it.

But to be honest, trying to apply logic to this is kind of silly. People can claim to be offended by anything, the only thing that matters is how much traction they get in the claim and how sympathetic they are.

I just kind of go along with most of the 'Ya ok that's offensive' even when I think its just people acting like children. But whatever, It doesn't really hurt me to acknowledge their concerns, and I find whenever you try to find the logic or reason behind these things, it just leads to arbitrary lines and contradictions, so you're kind of better off taking it at face value and avoiding the topic.

If that means you just have to smile and nod as someone gets witchhunted and fired, then, whatever, he's white and priviledged and knows the location of the secret cave, he'll be fine.

[induction]

Yeah, I agree with what poxic said. My question is more about the following sentences:

"He called her a cunt."

"He called her a c***."

"He called her the c-word."

Are all three of the above sentences different from each other in connotation (they certainly seem to be denoting the exact same thing). What's being conveyed through the use of asterisks or euphemisms?

Also, does this only apply when you're not using the word to attack someone? Or is saying:

"You're a c***."

actually less harmful than the uncensored version?

Swearing, like slang, is a common way for people to self-identify, to affiliate with certain groups, or identify a social space. By your choice of swears, you convey information about yourself to those you are talking (or writing) to. "He called her the c-word," gives information about what someone else said, and also demonstrates that the speaker is not the kind of person who uses that word, or at least not in this context.

"You're a c***," comes across as odd (unless it's a quote) because the writer is effectively contradicting themselves by using the word while claiming not to be the kind of person who uses that word.

[RoberII]

Yeah, I agree with what poxic said. My question is more about the following sentences:

"He called her a cunt."

"He called her a c***."

"He called her the c-word."

Are all three of the above sentences different from each other in connotation (they certainly seem to be denoting the exact same thing). What's being conveyed through the use of asterisks or euphemisms?

Also, does this only apply when you're not using the word to attack someone? Or is saying:

"You're a c***."

actually less harmful than the uncensored version?

Isn't the last version very, very hypothetical?

I think the reason why we use phrases like "the n-word" or similar things is that we distance ourselves from the racism inherent in their words - what we say by it is basically "I acknowledge that this is a hurtful word to many people, and therefore I will not say it."
The flip side to this is of course that saying the n-word means that you do NOT acknowledge that it is hurtful to other people, which makes you a douchebag at best, a bigot at worst. Yes, even when you are singing along to rap songs.

I can't decide whether I think newcasters, etc should 'be allowed' to say it. On one hand, report the facts, on the other hand, respect. But yeah, it just goes to show how deeply divisive that particular word is.

The same goes for "cunt", though I think there is less of a taboo. When it comes to fuck, shit, etc, that's just general prudishness, imho. I think that there is a difference between words that are inherently racist/sexist and words that are just swear words, and I think maybe 'cunt' is currently in between. It's definitely not a good word, it's hella sexist imho - again, except maybe in Britain.

Iceman:
Triggering has less to do with being offensive and much, much more to do with not making people deal directly with things that might remind them of past traumas - for instance, if you were to describe in detail a rape, you would add a trigger warning so rape victims (who are not so much offended as just deeply traumatized) do not have to deal with that. Here's a thorough introduction: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

[AvatarIII]

Yeah, I agree with what poxic said. My question is more about the following sentences:

"He called her a cunt."

"He called her a c***."

"He called her the c-word."

Are all three of the above sentences different from each other in connotation (they certainly seem to be denoting the exact same thing). What's being conveyed through the use of asterisks or euphemisms?

I think here, the thing is, that "He" called "her" the same thing regardless of how you are passing on that information,
for a start asterisks cannot be conveyed in speech and I suspect most people would write c*** if it was being written, so those two ways of saying it are basically the same.
Like I said before, censoring words is mostly to protect those who don't know the words, however some people seem to take offence to words even when they are not the focus of those words, which is kind of crazy, but some people are sensitive to that sort of thing and it is their right to be offended, and no one can tell then not to be, and so it becomes a matter of politeness to censor your words, because you don't know who might overhear/read them.

[setzer777]

I have seen "You're a c***." before, but it occurs to me that in those instances people might just be trying to get around word filters.

[Роберт]

Yeah, I agree with what poxic said. My question is more about the following sentences:

"He called her a cunt."

"He called her a c***."

"He called her the c-word."

Are all three of the above sentences different from each other in connotation (they certainly seem to be denoting the exact same thing). What's being conveyed through the use of asterisks or euphemisms?

Also, does this only apply when you're not using the word to attack someone? Or is saying:

"You're a c***."

actually less harmful than the uncensored version?

In the direct name calling instance, I see little difference between the asterisked word and the uncensored one. But I see a big one in your quote instance. Not sure I could put my finger on it exactly.

And don't d*ck and pr*ck count as the male versions of c*nt? Sure it's not the exact same, but it's the same type of swear word. "You're a penis" is used to be very insulting.

[KestrelLowing]

In the direct name calling instance, I see little difference between the asterisked word and the uncensored one. But I see a big one in your quote instance. Not sure I could put my finger on it exactly.

And don't d*ck and pr*ck count as the male versions of c*nt? Sure it's not the exact same, but it's the same type of swear word. "You're a penis" is used to be very insulting.

But those words aren't nearly as insulting. It probably has to do with the fact that men have traditionally more value than women so only by referring to the female genitals are you really being nasty because male genitals are better.

Same reason being called a bitch is more of an insult that being called a dog. Yeah, neither are fantastic but being called a bitch is certainly more insulting.

[K-R]

"The other day I saw the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper. All they had to do, to get the word 'fuck' on the front of the paper, was spell it 'f**k'. Doesn't that still say 'fuck'? I'm pretty sure that still says 'fuck'. In fact, 'f**k' gets used to mean 'fuck' so much, that 'f**k' actually means 'fuck' more than 'fuck' means 'fuck'.

I don't think it does say fuck.

Of course it still says 'fuck'. The sentence means the exact same thing either way.

[Роберт]

In the direct name calling instance, I see little difference between the asterisked word and the uncensored one. But I see a big one in your quote instance. Not sure I could put my finger on it exactly.

And don't d*ck and pr*ck count as the male versions of c*nt? Sure it's not the exact same, but it's the same type of swear word. "You're a penis" is used to be very insulting.

But those words aren't nearly as insulting. It probably has to do with the fact that men have traditionally more value than women so only by referring to the female genitals are you really being nasty because male genitals are better.

Same reason being called a bitch is more of an insult that being called a dog. Yeah, neither are fantastic but being called a bitch is certainly more insulting.

I agree that c*nt happens to be more offensive, but I'm not sure why. I mean, which is more offensive, d*ck or p*ssy? My main point was offering up something more appropriate than c*cksucker, which is more an*lagous to c*rpetmuncher.

[sam_i_am]

It's a choice to be offended by words.

You're applying cold, steely logic to an emotional response. I don't disagree, but unfortunately, that doesn't work for everyone.

The OP wrote that he was uncomfortable typing (or speaking) certain words... he was introspective enough to question why he felt uncomfortable and couldn't come up with a good reason. Most people don't have that same thought process... if a word makes them uncomfortable to say or hear, that's a swear word. To an extent, it's a generational thing. Anyone under 40 or so (an arbitrary guess) was probably raised completely desensitized to George Carlin's dirty words, there's no discomfort in saying or hearing them to us, but the older generation has that same ingrained core reaction to fuck or shit. Obviously this isn't strictly generational, but it appears to trend that way. I wonder how 10-15 year old kids react to the words that make Gen X/Y (or whatever the fuck we call ourselves) uncomfortable...

Unrelated: My daughter's school (preschool) considers "butt" to be a swear word... Boggles the mind, it does, I'm not sure what term they'd prefer.

I personally don't understand how people are anyone can possibly be offended by the words themselves. I myself am never offended merely by words. Now, If I recognize what seems to be actual contempt or ignorance, than I would get offended, and no amount of censoring or un-censoring is going to change that.

It's almost as though some people's brains are based on RegEx

[omgryebread]

It's a choice to be offended by words.

You're applying cold, steely logic to an emotional response. I don't disagree, but unfortunately, that doesn't work for everyone.

The OP wrote that he was uncomfortable typing (or speaking) certain words... he was introspective enough to question why he felt uncomfortable and couldn't come up with a good reason. Most people don't have that same thought process... if a word makes them uncomfortable to say or hear, that's a swear word. To an extent, it's a generational thing. Anyone under 40 or so (an arbitrary guess) was probably raised completely desensitized to George Carlin's dirty words, there's no discomfort in saying or hearing them to us, but the older generation has that same ingrained core reaction to fuck or shit. Obviously this isn't strictly generational, but it appears to trend that way. I wonder how 10-15 year old kids react to the words that make Gen X/Y (or whatever the fuck we call ourselves) uncomfortable...

Unrelated: My daughter's school (preschool) considers "butt" to be a swear word... Boggles the mind, it does, I'm not sure what term they'd prefer.

I personally don't understand how people are anyone can possibly be offended by the words themselves. I myself am never offended merely by words. Now, If I recognize what seems to be actual contempt or ignorance, than I would get offended, and no amount of censoring or un-censoring is going to change that.

It's almost as though some people's brains are based on RegEx

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

previously posted in this very thread:

Spoiler:

@Krogoth and djehutynakht

Can I get some white male privilege up in this thread?

"Aww, bohoo, poor me, I can't sing along to rap songs, I have to show sensitivity and common decency, bawww."

Seriously though, it's not a double standard at all - it's a very simple standard of it being acceptable for people of a group to reappropriate a word, but not acceptable for people outside that group to use that word about them. "Gay" is another good example, "bitch" is definitely moving in that direction as well for women, maybe 'slut' as well (although unfortunately probably not). But still, these words are not nearly as tabooed as the n-word, and with good reason.

Ninja'd: What poxic said.

Relevant link: "I Don't Care if You're Offended. Some thousand words long. I'll try to pick out the main idea, more or less.

A racial slur against blacks might or might not offend you, or anyone else present. It's interesting to sit around and philosophise about that.

The reason "the n-word" has so much force, though, is because blacks have been historically treated with contempt by whites. If there was no oppression/contempt/discrimination, then there would be little reason to use or not use the word. Cracker and continental, for example, simply don't have the same force. White people are more or less immune to slurs based on race, at least in places where they are dominant. Being called a white person hasn't generally been an insult.

If I use the slur, I'm just one more white person in a very, very long line who is using a word that has carried my race's historic (and often current) hatred for another. We can't get the chamber to stop echoing by continuing to repeat what's going around.

Similar issue with cunt. I don't have much of a problem with the word, but again it carries a historic weight of use against a group of people. What's the worst insult you can come up with based on masculine anatomy? (Cocksucker doesn't count -- it's a slur against gay men, not against men in general.) There isn't anything with the force of cunt for the same reason that there isn't a slur against whites with much force. Being called male hasn't generally been an insult.

And some other stuff but hey it's waaaaay late and I need to go to bed now. G'night.

They both said anything I'd say far better than I'd say it.

[sam_i_am]

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

previously posted in this very thread:

They both said anything I'd say far better than I'd say it.

Can you honestly say that you would be less offended if someone called you some other synonym of those words?

Or even if they merely censor out those words? and call you a c*nt or a sl*t

[K-R]

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

Right, but I'm guessing that's more to do with the sentiment being expressed than it is to do with the words.

[DSenette]

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

Right, but I'm guessing that's more to do with the sentiment being expressed than it is to do with the words.

what's your point? is there another way to express the sentiment without those words? or without words that are equal in weight (at which point, there's no difference between being called a cunt or a slag if those two words hold the same weight)?

words are how we express sentiment. saying that "it's just a word" is useless...of course it's just a word. and every word is just a collection of letters. (man Cunt has a U in it...you know what else has a U in it? us...let's all just get along!) but it's a funny thing, when you string a bunch of letters together and they're immediately followed by hundreds of years of sentiment.

[sam_i_am]

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

Right, but I'm guessing that's more to do with the sentiment being expressed than it is to do with the words.

what's your point? is there another way to express the sentiment without those words? or without words that are equal in weight (at which point, there's no difference between being called a cunt or a slag if those two words hold the same weight)?

words are how we express sentiment. saying that "it's just a word" is useless...of course it's just a word. and every word is just a collection of letters. (man Cunt has a U in it...you know what else has a U in it? us...let's all just get along!) but it's a funny thing, when you string a bunch of letters together and they're immediately followed by hundreds of years of sentiment.

Nigger

I just wrote the word "Nigger", and I'll write it again

Nigger

Now that I wrote the word "Nigger" 4 times in this very post, to you believe me to be racist? based on the fact that I said those words? does saying the word "Nigger" carry more weight than expressing contempt?


You tell me which quote sounds more racist to you. They have the same amount of words.

Black people are inferior to white people

nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

[DSenette]

Your superior ability to deflect offense is noted. I'm still pretty offended when I get called a cunt or slut, sorry.

Right, but I'm guessing that's more to do with the sentiment being expressed than it is to do with the words.

what's your point? is there another way to express the sentiment without those words? or without words that are equal in weight (at which point, there's no difference between being called a cunt or a slag if those two words hold the same weight)?

words are how we express sentiment. saying that "it's just a word" is useless...of course it's just a word. and every word is just a collection of letters. (man Cunt has a U in it...you know what else has a U in it? us...let's all just get along!) but it's a funny thing, when you string a bunch of letters together and they're immediately followed by hundreds of years of sentiment.

Nigger

I just wrote the word "Nigger", and I'll write it again

Nigger

Now that I wrote the word "Nigger" 4 times in this very post, to you believe me to be racist? based on the fact that I said those words? does saying the word "Nigger" carry more weight than expressing contempt?


You tell me which quote sounds more racist to you. They have the same amount of words.

Black people are inferior to white people

nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

now, assume that we're not talking about "racist" and we're talking about...you know, things being offensive for whatever reason they're offensive (which, is totally what we're talking about)

also assume that i'm a black guy (full disclosure...i'm not) and that you're a white guy (you could be...dunno). tell me which one of those i should find more offensive?

saying the word nigger TOTALLY carry's the same weight as saying that black people are inferior to white people IF you're a person who has been called a nigger because you're black. or you know, because you're part of a culture, that for 200+ years has had the word nigger mean REALLY bad shit when someone who ISN'T part of that same culture says it.

so yeah, there is totally a difference between someone saying "hey my cunt is really dry" and "shut your mouth you cunt" or "hey, we're discussing words so i'm going to type the word nigger as an academic exercise" and "he nigger" but that's context not sentiment. there is no context where calling someone a cunt doesn't have the probability of confering the sentiment of the word cunt. even if you're calling your friend a cunt in jest, it still has the same sentiment behind it...your friend can choose to understand that you mean it in jest or not (and be offended) but that doesn't actually change the sentiment behind the word.

[Choboman]

Whether we want them to or not, words have emotional baggage associated with how they've been used in the past and what people believe it says about you if you're comfortable using them in different contexts. A swastika is just a glorified plus sign, or associated with Hinduism or Jainism, but if people see you painting them on a wall they're going to assume that your use of them signifies you support a nazi or white supremicist ideology.

Casually using the word 'nigger' in common conversation [as a person not of african descent] sends a message that you're racist, while using the 'n-word' replacement conveys the context 'I don't want you to think of me as a racist and I don't approve of the use of the word but this is what that other person said'.

That said, I HAVE heard people say things like 'You're such an n-word!', which to me makes a paradoxical statement of saying racist things conjoined with an entreaty not to be counted as a racist. I guess it makes sense that the people I heard say that generally weren't very smart.

[induction]

Nigger

I just wrote the word "Nigger", and I'll write it again

Nigger

Now that I wrote the word "Nigger" 4 times in this very post, to you believe me to be racist? based on the fact that I said those words? does saying the word "Nigger" carry more weight than expressing contempt?


You tell me which quote sounds more racist to you. They have the same amount of words.

Black people are inferior to white people

nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

You're playing the same game that Michael Richards and Dr. Laura played, and it didn't work out too well for them. In fact, your second quote is identical in both content and context to the statements that got Dr. Laura in so much trouble (Michael Richards' case was similar, but he was being intentionally antagonistic). Even when you make your intentions perfectly clear, there will still be plenty of people who get offended by the use of this word. You can argue that they shouldn't, but we have empirical evidence that they do.

So to answer your question ("does saying the word "Nigger" carry more weight than expressing contempt?"): I guess it depends who you're talking to.