Trump presidency

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Soupspoon
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:54 am UTC

You would have "Trump" quote things SEEMINGLY AT RANDOM, accepting NO COLLUSION WITH ALLCAPS. Blame the sinking of failing boats (with bad ratings!) upon Democrats, or claim sinkings happen ON MANY TIDES!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:29 am UTC

When it's low tide, that's the sea level falling. Envirowackos claim sea levels are always rising. Proof they lie. Sad.

Now, I like waves, but when the sea sends its tides, it doesn't send its best. It sends its tsunamis, its hurricanes.

Why are we taking in the tides from every shithole ocean? We should be taking in more tides from the Baltic seas.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:52 am UTC

cphite wrote:For someone like Trump, you can bet money that a very large part of hooking up with a woman is how hot she's perceived to be, and how wanted she is by other men. Who fits that criteria better than a porn star?

LOL you know I actually agree with everything else you wrote. ESPECIALLY, "official documentation 'proving Trump is with hot women' and beauty pageants...." DISAGREE STRONGLY that beauty pageant women are "porn stars." Beauty pageants are not pornography. There's lit. no sex involved. You are gross dude.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:21 pm UTC

And strippers ALSO don't have sex with their clients. Usually. But it's still a form of sex work.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:25 pm UTC

Strippers and exotic dancers only use their sex appeal and never touch their clients. Ever. And beauty pageants are about classical beauty and ladylike traits NOT sexiness. So honestly whatever people can think and believe whatever they like about lowborn beautiful women or highborn beautiful women. I personally think and believe beauty pageants are affirmations of women's and girls' beauty and not sex work. I'd rather go back to my teen years and do beauty pageants all day, even date a womanizing man like T-Trump... than do REAL sex work.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:38 pm UTC

Strippers don't touch their clients? You... sure about that one?

And that's before we get into the discussion about beauty/sexuality and the actual ability for women to reclaim theirs from men even in the day and age of 3rd wave feminism.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:43 pm UTC

It's a rule at strip clubs. "Don't touch the girls or you get bounced." Unless... you pay me 299 dollars for a lap dance, which I can do with femme style, big boy wink-wink suggestively. Anyways, women and girls already reclaiming their sexuality from dirty men, and men like Trump S-Still ain't stopping them. Feminism helps a lot in such respects. But Trump IS setting men back by quite a lot I agree.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm UTC

this is all completely beside the point that the woman in question who trump paid to be quiet about having an affair with him was stormy daniels who is a porn star. "trump spends his time around beautiful women at beauty pageants" was a fact relating to trump's history of literally wanting to rank women by their attractiveness (you can have your own opinion on beauty pageants independently of how trump views them but i think it does not take much imagination to guess that trump, himself, hangs around beauty pageants because he objectifies women.)

that had nothing to do with calling beauty pageant contestants porn stars. it was related to why cphite imagined trump might have wanted to have sex with stormy daniels, not with cphite calling beauty pageant contestants porn stars. stormy daniels is, actually, a porn star.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

Um sorry, the whole, tangent on beauty pageants threw me off. Why he talk about them and NOT Stormy Daniels?
Last edited by Ginger on Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:06 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:You said that it's not difficult to guess, implying that your assumption is likely to be true. I didn't make a guess; my point is that it *is* difficult to guess, and that there is no reason to think it happened as you described.


So basically your entire point here is that a guess might not reflect what actually happened. Wow, thanks... it's a good thing you were here to clarify that. :roll:

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:48 pm UTC

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Fucking idiot. Your post consisted of nothing but speculation and gossip, while showing no signs of understanding. It was simply not fit for human consumption.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

Um...perhaps we should save that level of vitriol and apoplexy for bigger crimes against humanity than this, Thesh?

With so many wrongs to battle in the world, it seems a shame to invest so much energy into such a minor skirmish.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:It's a rule at strip clubs. "Don't touch the girls or you get bounced." Unless... you pay me 299 dollars for a lap dance, which I can do with femme style, big boy wink-wink suggestively. Anyways, women and girls already reclaiming their sexuality from dirty men, and men like Trump S-Still ain't stopping them. Feminism helps a lot in such respects. But Trump IS setting men back by quite a lot I agree.


I just realised that I have seen inside views of more furry-world strip clubs than real ones.

One furry world, two strip clubs, one NESFW strip behind the spoiler:

Spoiler:
Image


Actually it's mostly about other things, but some of them do visit two strip clubs ... and some others vist another one. It has to do with the story.

Now: $299? Do people give you fifteen $20s and treasure the $1 as a souvenir, or what?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:34 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:It's a rule at strip clubs. "Don't touch the girls or you get bounced."


That's customers touching the girls not vice versa. Also I presume this largely depends on where you're located because that's definitely not a rule up here in Montreal (either way).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:57 pm UTC

it is not a universal rule by any stretch, either with regards to policy or actual enforcement (many clubs will absolutely allow contact at the strippers' discretion -- especially if you've paid for a private dance -- and many others are completely terrible about protecting workers who have their boundaries violated, no matter what their policy says.)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:57 pm UTC

And you'll never see Congress pass any legislation prohibiting that sort of thing.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:07 pm UTC

Rhode Island once updated the rules on prostitution, only for someone to realize they TEEEECHNICALLY legalized the act itself as long as it wasn't in any way public, which is why strip clubs all were located next door to No-tell Motels that charged by the hour. It lasted for several decades until one garishly pink cube was caught importing 14 year old "strippers" from Boston, then there was a backlash large enough to force a fix.

So it IS possible for Congress to get involved to protect strippers. Sort of. Not really.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:27 pm UTC

Trump endorses guns for teachers.

That's going to end well...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:03 am UTC

Has Trump ever fired a gun in his life before? Using a gun requires training; you don't just pick up a gun one day and suddenly you are Rambo. Someone that knows nothing about a gun is more a risk to themselves and those around them than to any would be mass murderer.

This does not get into the obvious issues of actually having guns in school, loaded, in the classrooms, and of the million teachers in the US that absolutely all of them every hour of the day doesn't let the gun out of their sight...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby HES » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:08 am UTC


If enacted, I give it a week before that policy enables a school shooting.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:14 am UTC

On the plus side, the PTA meetings might get a bit more interesting.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:15 am UTC

Angua wrote:Trump endorses guns for teachers.

That's going to end well...

Actually, I think it will end well. Part of the reason shootings happen in gun-free zones is because they are gun-free. That's not to say someone who really wants to shoot up a school won't try to shoot up a school, but knowing teachers may have a weapon will definitely be a deterrent for many. The football coach who died protecting kids might have been able to end it then and there instead.

CorruptUser wrote:Has Trump ever fired a gun in his life before? Using a gun requires training; you don't just pick up a gun one day and suddenly you are Rambo. Someone that knows nothing about a gun is more a risk to themselves and those around them than to any would be mass murderer.

This does not get into the obvious issues of actually having guns in school, loaded, in the classrooms, and of the million teachers in the US that absolutely all of them every hour of the day doesn't let the gun out of their sight...

I completely agree it would be worse than irresponsible to expect proficiency and safety without training and respect for the weapon, but ...

From the article:
Trump wrote:"If you had a teacher who was adept at firearms," he said, "they could very well end the attack very quickly."

"Where a teacher would have a concealed gun on them," he said, while acknowledging the plan was controversial, "they would go for special training and they would be there, and you would no longer have a gun-free zone.

So he's not suggesting handing out a gun to every teacher and substitute who wants one. Neither would a gun in a classroom have to be loaded or even in an unlocked cabinet.

HES wrote:If enacted, I give it a week before that policy enables a school shooting.

While I agree it's a possibility if teachers don't give guns the respect they deserve, it's still extremely cynical and almost ridiculous to make that statement if the people involved (legislators, school administration, teachers) take the idea as seriously as it deserves to be taken.

He's also endorsed legislation to improve background checks, raise the minimum age for gun purchase, and ban bump stocks. Everyone who attacks Trump for his support of the 2nd Amendment and the NRA should give him credit for at least appearing to consider altering his platform. I don't blame anyone for withholding praise until they see him take the actions he says he will, but once he does, if those people still can't give him credit, they may want to take a hard look at their own beliefs.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:05 am UTC

There's also the creep issue - and that's the same problem I have with every "security vs freedom" tradeoff. The way ordinary law-abiding students feel about and behave in school is subtly altered if the directives of teachers and staff are backed up by heat. We already have armed police patrolling schools, he's now suggesting that the very people who assign homework carry a gun to enforce behavior?

Yes, I know that's not the purpose of the gun. But it's an inescapable undercurrent of authority that will be absorbed by the youngfolk, who in a few short years, will be deciding the next election.

This kind of think creeps me out, and dodges (while exacerbating) the underlying problem - that is, people feeling powerless against The Man, leading to repression and anger, which will escape somehow.

Armed authoritarianism is not the answer to social ills.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:13 am UTC

Teachers can already be armed in many U.S. jurisdictions. As far as I know it hasn't caused any of the problems described.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:54 am UTC

Yablo wrote:Actually, I think it will end well. Part of the reason shootings happen in gun-free zones is because they are gun-free. That's not to say someone who really wants to shoot up a school won't try to shoot up a school, but knowing teachers may have a weapon will definitely be a deterrent for many.
Really? You think people who shoot up schools are susceptible to typical deterrents?

"Well, I was going to kill everybody in Math class, then blow my own brains out. But Mrs. Brown might have a gun under her desk, so I guess I'll just finish my Algebra homework instead."
Yablo wrote:So he's not suggesting handing out a gun to every teacher and substitute who wants one. Neither would a gun in a classroom have to be loaded or even in an unlocked cabinet.
Every barrier you put between the teachers and their guns makes it less likely that their guns will help. And every barrier you take away makes it more likely that one of their guns will be used inappropriately. And not just by the students -- by the teachers themselves.
EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers can already be armed in many U.S. jurisdictions. As far as I know it hasn't caused any of the problems described.
There is a world of difference between "Teachers are permitted to bring concealed firearms into the classroom given they have the approval of the school-board, superintendent, and/or principal" and "We can mitigate school shootings by encouraging our teachers to be armed with guns".

This isn't even a gun control issue. This is a 'gun encouragement' issue. We should not be encouraging teachers to be armed and ready to deploy lethal force (particularly not against their own student population). If you really want to go in that direction (and you really, really shouldn't), we ought to be looking into personnel who actually train for this.

There are so many things wrong with this line of thinking that it's hard for me to qualify them all. Here's just a few: Every gun you bring into a classroom is a gun someone other than its intended owner could use. Teachers are not trained to apply lethal force against targets in high-stress environments with multiple unintended targets (and this is not a skill-set you can acquire over a 'few weeks of training'; there's a reason "police officer" is a career path and not volunteer work). Teachers are supposed to de-escalate, not escalate -- and anyone with a background in de-escalation will tell you that adding guns to a situation does not help. Teachers often operate in intense situations filled with potentially explosive verbal and physical conflicts -- inserting guns into this equation will almost certainly get students (and teachers) killed. If students know that their teachers might be armed, this fundamentally alters the nature of the student-teacher relationship (and not in a good way). A lot of teachers who would gladly bring a gun to the classroom are going to be the sort of teachers you do not want bringing guns to the classroom.

I'm fairly anti-gun, but even I could see the potential merit in having one gun in schools (not in classrooms, and not on teachers) determined to be high-risk -- secured and locked away, with access restricted to a select few personnel (preferably ones with a background in the use of firearms in high-stress situations). No one would even know where it is except for them. I'd argue against this, but I can at least see where someone who argued for it is coming from.

But a policy that encourages teachers to be trained and armed with concealed guns? No. That's just dumb.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:28 am UTC

School shootings are major tragedies where they happen but they cause a trivially low deaths count per year. It would take a negligible rate of accidents from teachers' guns to overcome any possible good this could do.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:11 am UTC

idonno wrote:School shootings are major tragedies where they happen but they cause a trivially low deaths count per year. It would take a negligible rate of accidents from teachers' guns to overcome any possible good this could do.

That works directions, doesn't it? Gun control advocates want to take away Edgar's hobby just to prevent a trivially low number of deaths every year.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:50 am UTC

Yablo wrote:I completely agree it would be worse than irresponsible to expect proficiency and safety without training and respect for the weapon, but ...

From the article:
Trump wrote:"If you had a teacher who was adept at firearms," he said, "they could very well end the attack very quickly."

"Where a teacher would have a concealed gun on them," he said, while acknowledging the plan was controversial, "they would go for special training and they would be there, and you would no longer have a gun-free zone.

So he's not suggesting handing out a gun to every teacher and substitute who wants one. Neither would a gun in a classroom have to be loaded or even in an unlocked cabinet.
So your plan for dealing with a school shooting is to have a teacher armed with this:

Image

... and wearing this:

Image

... shoot back at a psychopath armed with this:

Image

... and wearing this:

Image

... and you expect the teacher to win?

No? You reckon the teacher gets 30 seconds to assemble a rifle, then? Watch how long it takes Pete to put one together. Think opening a gun safe is much faster?

Even if this works, even if the teacher isn't the first one hit and does recognise the shooting when it starts and does get his or her gun into action and manages to James Bond it or, more sensibly and also rather luckily, the shooter goes into the classroom opposite and the armed teacher empties a magazine into the shooter's back and the shooter's not armoured there and is alone, or the armed teacher waits until the shooter stops to reload and then moves out and engages the shooter during the reload and wins that way ..... you're still waiting for someone to shoot up a school before you do anything to stop someone shooting up a school.

When it comes to shooting, the plan is the first casualty. I think an alternative plan in which people get to go to school without anyone coming into the school and shooting at them at all is likely to be better, on the basis that people get to go to school without anyone coming into the school and shooting at them at all.

Yablo wrote:While I agree it's a possibility if teachers don't give guns the respect they deserve, it's still extremely cynical and almost ridiculous to make that statement if the people involved (legislators, school administration, teachers) take the idea as seriously as it deserves to be taken.
You think nobody's given it any thought at all between March '96 and this week? You seriously believe that it took Donald Trump to have this idea and propel it into public consciousness and start people thinking about it, and nobody's had more than a few hours to mull it over?

Yablo wrote:Everyone ... should give him credit for at least appearing to consider altering his platform.
The fuck?!? Should we give a judge credit for "appearing to consider" the case for the defence before he sentences someone to death by hanging?

From gunpolicy.org:
The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in the United States is 101.05
The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in Switzerland is
2016: 24.4
2005: 45.7

In the United States, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
2014: 3.43
2013: 3.54
2012: 3.70
2011: 3.55
2010: 3.59
2009: 3.75
2008: 4.01
2007: 4.19
2006: 4.29
2005: 4.18
2004: 3.97
2003: 4.11
2002: 4.11
2001: 3.98
2000: 3.84
1999: 3.88
1998: 3.37
1993: 7.07

In Switzerland, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
2015: 0.21
2014: 0.09
2013: 0.23
2012: 0.16
2011: 0.28
2010: 0.19
2009: 0.31
2008: 0.21
2007: 0.20
2006: 0.19
2005: 0.31
2004: 0.47
2003: 0.27
2002: 0.42
2001: 0.55
2000: 0.24
1999: 0.45
1998: 0.38
1997: 0.85
1996: 0.58
1995: 0.38
1994: 0.58


I'm not the only one who's thought of making the comparison:
Like the U.S., Switzerland loves its guns. But mass shootings are rare.

The Swiss are heavily armed but mass shootings are rare, unlike in the United States where the country is still reeling from its latest tragedy at a Florida high school that left 17 dead.

About 2 million guns are estimated to be in circulation in this Alpine nation of 8.5 million people, according to GunPolicy. org, which publishes international data on firearms. Only the United States and Yemen have more guns per capita.
The Swiss Have Liberal Gun Laws, Too
But they also have fewer gun-related deaths than the U.S.


“It is a question of trust between the state and the citizen. The citizen is not just a citizen, he is also a soldier,” Hermann Suter, who at the time was vice president of the Swiss gun-rights group Pro Tell, told the BBC then. “The gun at home is the best way to avoid dictatorships—only dictators take arms away from the citizens.”

Apparently many of his fellow Swiss agreed. The referendum was easily defeated. Gun ownership in the country has deep historic roots and it is tied to mandatory military service for Swiss men between the ages of 18 and 34. Traditionally, soldiers were allowed to keep their weapons at home in order to defend against conquering armies.

Children as young as 12 are taught how to shoot as well as the rules of gun safety, and are encouraged to participate in highly popular target-shooting competitions. The country’s cultural attachment to firearms resembles America’s in some ways, though it has no constitutional right to bear arms—it has the third-highest rate of private gun ownership in the world, behind the United States and Yemen.
{auto-playing video} Other countries have been hit by school shootings -- and done something

The U.S. is not the only country that's been shaken by school shootings.

But other countries have responded in ways that seem to be keeping their children safe.

The Australian government bought back and destroyed nearly 600,000 banned guns. And while there have still been incidents, Australia has freed itself from fatal mass shootings.

Germany, Finland, and Scotland have also responded to attacks on schools with big policy changes. And they've reduced school shootings to zero over the last decade, unlike the United States, where the carnage continues.

"The difference here is that Europe actually reacted and implemented changes to stop those shootings," said Rick Noack of the Washington Post via Skype.

He points to Switzerland, where gun ownership is high. but school shootings are non-existent. Gun buyers are subjected to a weeks-long background check, and the authorities keep a list of two thousand people they fear may become school shooters.


The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in the United Kingdom is

2010: 3.78
2009: 3.80
2006: 3.70
2005: 3.74

In the United Kingdom, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is

2013: 0.04
2012: 0.02
2011: 0.06
2010: 0.05
2009: 0.04
2008: 0.06
2007: 0.02
2006: 0.10
2005: 0.06
2004: 0.06
2003: 0.05
2002: 0.07
2001: 0.06
2000: 0.12
1999: 0.08
1998: 0.06
1997: 0.08
1996: 0.14

In the United Kingdom, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is

2012: 1.03
2011: 1.21
2010: 1.14
2009: 1.24
2008: 1.42
2007: 1.41
2006: 1.38
2005: 1.60
2004: 1.53
2003: 1.87
2002: 1.62
2001: 1.56
1999: 1.41
We're over-crowded, houses cost 20 years' wages, unemployment's a problem, we have poverty traps, we have income inequality, we have racial hatred and you're about a third as likely to be murdered here as in the USA.

You know what? I don't think the gun's the problem. I don't think the calibre, magazine size, heat shield, shoulder thing that goes up, pistol grip, ghost sight, folding stock or anything else the NRA let the Democrats ban so they could pretend they were trying to help is the problem either. The problem is the arsehole holding the gun, and it's exacerbated by a culture in which The HeroTM Saves The WorldTM with a handgun.

Spoiler:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
You drill it into every young man's head that he's either a badass or a pussy, that having a pistol in your hand makes you a badass, that defrauding the country of a few billion dollars "makes you smart" and, apparently, that stealing stuff's cool but reporting it is a crime against the guy who took it ... and anyone who wants a gun has one, or two, or maybe three or four or five. This is the coundtrack to the consequences of your position on gun control. You want everyone to have guns? You get to hear this on TV every couple of months.

What's really important, though? What's REALLY important is to find a way to use this incident to justify telling the FBI to drop their investigation into Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. That's what REALLY matters here. Not one of those kids was ever going to be a billionaire, after all, so it's not like their lives matter.
OF COURSE THAT WAS FUCKING SARCASM!


Zamfir:
In the United States, annual unintentional shooting deaths total

2014: 586
2013: 505
2012: 548
2011: 591
2010: 606
2009: 554
2008: 592
2007: 613
2006: 642
2005: 789
2004: 649
2003: 730
2002: 762
2001: 802
2000: 776
1999: 824

In the United States, the annual rate of unintentional shooting death per 100,000 population is

2014: 0.18
2013: 0.16
2012: 0.17
2011: 0.19
2010: 0.20
2009: 0.18
2008: 0.19
2007: 0.20
2006: 0.22
2005: 0.27
2004: 0.22
2003: 0.25
2002: 0.26
2001: 0.28
2000: 0.28
1999: 0.30
1993: 0.59
Trivial? If those are trivial, why did anyone even notice 9/11?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:09 am UTC

Even if this works, even if the teacher isn't the first one hit and does recognise the shooting when it starts and does get his or her gun into action and manages to James Bond it

Yeah, James-Bonding all the way is not a good approach for ordinary people. In the last installments, even Bond himself is portrayed with more than a pistol.

Based on some documentaries that I have seen, the best approach is to start with taking the gun from one of the less attentive henchman, then you work your way up the chain collecting heavier equipment along the way. By the time you reach the boss guy, you probably have one or more of those big guns yourself. The documentaries also suggest that dying is much harder then is commonly assumed, at least for pro-active, go-get-them people. I assume that Trump has seen the same documentaries.

Trivial? If those are trivial, why did anyone even notice 9/11?
That's all numbers below 1

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:35 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:Part of the reason shootings happen in gun-free zones is because they are gun-free.

I would like you to produce a study showing that shooting in areas where guns are not prohibited result in less injuries compared to shooting in areas where guns are prohibited.

So he's not suggesting handing out a gun to every teacher and substitute who wants one. Neither would a gun in a classroom have to be loaded or even in an unlocked cabinet.

A proposal to increase the number of guns staff have and a proposal to limit the number of guns staff are inherently not compatible.

HES wrote:If enacted, I give it a week before that policy enables a school shooting.

While I agree it's a possibility if teachers don't give guns the respect they deserve, it's still extremely cynical and almost ridiculous to make that statement if the people involved (legislators, school administration, teachers) take the idea as seriously as it deserves to be taken.

Consider these hypotheticals:
Spoiler:
1) A student to enters a school with a crowbar.

2) Student sneak attacks the teacher most likely to carry a gun and incompatibles them.

3a) The teacher had gun.
4a) The student now has a gun.
5a) The student goes on a shooting spree.

3b) The teacher did not have a gun.
4b) The student takes actions to conceal that they where the ones to attack the teacher.
5b) The following investigation determines that the student was the one to attack the teacher.
6b) The student claims they did so do to a personal vendetta.
7b) The student is punished for assaulting a person with a deadly weapon and not for attempting to go on a shooting spree.
8b) The student does not go to juvenile hall.
9b) The student can attempt this procedure again.

3c) The teacher did not have a gun.
4c) The student takes actions to conceal that they where the ones to attack the teacher.
5c) The following investigation does not determines that the student was the one to attack the teacher.
6c) The student is not punished.
7c) The student can attempt this procedure again.


Spoiler:
1) Teacher leaves the classroom.

2) Student goes to their desk and searches for a gun.

3a) The student does not find a gun.
4a) The teacher never learns that the student went through their desk.
5a) The student is not punished for attempting to go on a shooting spree
6a) The student can attempt this procedure 6-7 more times

3b) The student does not find a gun.
4b) The teacher learns that the student went through their desk.
5b) The student claims they were looking for a future test in order to cheat.
6b) The student is in punished for attempting to cheat.
7b) The student can attempt this procedure 6-7 more times

3c) The student does find a gun.
4c) The student goes on a shooting spree.


I don't blame anyone for withholding praise until they see him take the actions he says he will...

Criticism and support of plans is just as valid as criticism and support of actions.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
I'm fairly anti-gun, but even I could see the potential merit in having one gun in schools (not in classrooms, and not on teachers) determined to be high-risk -- secured and locked away, with access restricted to a select few personnel (preferably ones with a background in the use of firearms in high-stress situations). No one would even know where it is except for them. I'd argue against this, but I can at least see where someone who argued for it is coming from.
Quite frankly this is an example what school liaison police officers are for. There is one person, a police officer, who has a gun and trained in using it for this purpose, and generally(although not always) society has determined has the authority to use a gun. 64% of US High Schools already have these.


Zamfir wrote:
idonno wrote:School shootings are major tragedies where they happen but they cause a trivially low deaths count per year. It would take a negligible rate of accidents from teachers' guns to overcome any possible good this could do.

That works directions, doesn't it? Gun control advocates want to take away Edgar's hobby just to prevent a trivially low number of deaths every year.
No, but it does suggest we probably actually look at effective solutions for the larger problem. Shootings like this are less <1% a year of gun deaths in the US. The vast majority of US gun death would *much* better be dealt with handgun ban than an assault weapons ban.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:40 pm UTC

The problem with the 'Police Officer in Every School Plan' is that schools are big. As that article on Trump's gun policy points out,

Stoneman Douglas High School had an armed guard on duty during last week's attack - but he never discharged his gun. The local sheriff told reporters the deputy never encountered the shooter.


That said, it would not take much to convince me that there should be a police officer in all schools, but for a totally different reason. If a fight between two students broke out or someone was caught with drugs, it would be more appropriate for a police officer to handle the situation than a teacher.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:The problem with the 'Police Officer in Every School Plan' is that schools are big. As that article on Trump's gun policy points out,

Stoneman Douglas High School had an armed guard on duty during last week's attack - but he never discharged his gun. The local sheriff told reporters the deputy never encountered the shooter.


That said, it would not take much to convince me that there should be a police officer in all schools, but for a totally different reason. If a fight between two students broke out or someone was caught with drugs, it would be more appropriate for a police officer to handle the situation than a teacher.
Well, I think the first shows the limits of really stopping anyone who is armed from doing major damage/death. And the reason most schools have police officers is for other criminal activity like assault and selling drugs, the stopping a shooter thing is secondary(given how rare this is).
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:08 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:That said, it would not take much to convince me that there should be a police officer in all schools, but for a totally different reason. If a fight between two students broke out or someone was caught with drugs, it would be more appropriate for a police officer to handle the situation than a teacher.

Ah yes, surely the thing to help a kid who got in a fight is to get them involved with the fucking police.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

But with crime rates (aside from gun murders) plummeting and marijuana legal, how else are we going to fill our prisons? Think of the private prison owners kids; do you really have the heart to tell them that if they want a yacht that has deck space for their Ferrari for Christmas, they are going to have to work for it, like, like a poor person?! They will be the laughing stock of their prep schools!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:50 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:edit: it'd probably also be good if more people were able to recognize other human beings as people and not fantasy caricatures...

Well, that actually took longer than i thought it would...

Honestly, I don't really give two shits about arming teachers. I don't buy into the FUD, but neither do I think allowing teachers to be armed would be anything more than mitigation.

The problem is this right here:
The Great Hippo wrote:"Well, I was going to kill everybody in Math class, then blow my own brains out. But Mrs. Brown might have a gun under her desk, so I guess I'll just finish my Algebra homework instead."


And here:
while we’re all fighting over whose pet cause is more right and more true and more noble, there’s likely another young man out there, maybe suicidally depressed, maybe paranoid and delusional, maybe a psychopath, and he’s researching guns and bombs and mapping out schools and recording videos and thinking every day about the anger and hate he feels for this world.

And no one is paying attention to him.


The problem is schools being underfunded to the point teachers have to pay for supplies out of their own pockets and Administrators have to decide between hiring a nurse or hiring a counselor, and realizing they don't have the budget to hire enough of either to serve their student population.

Thinking that giving teachers guns would solve the problem is just as ignorant as thinking that taking all the guns away would solve the problem.

For every kid who decides to end their life by shooting up their school, there are hundreds who commit suicide privately, and even more who just go from being troubled teens to troubled adults.

And we are failing all of them.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

The majority of suicides occur while under the influence of alcohol and/or benzo...thing. Suicides themselves are more of a spur of the moment thing rather than planned, though planned ones do happen. So, do you plan to restrict alcohol and benzothingies more than they already are?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The majority of suicides occur while under the influence of alcohol and/or benzo...thing. Suicides themselves are more of a spur of the moment thing rather than planned, though planned ones do happen. So, do you plan to restrict alcohol and benzothingies more than they already are?


No more than I plan to restrict guns or anything else. Substance abuse is just another symptom generally.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:04 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:...Gun control advocates want to take away Edgar's hobby just to prevent...
Not just "Edgar"'s hobby, but lots of people's hobbies, and also the very idea that people can have dangerous tools as part of their hobbies.

Sableagle wrote:...people get to go to school without anyone coming into the school and shooting at them...
...people get to go to school without anyone coming into the school wanting to shoot at them...

The problem is the psycopaths. Why do we have so many psychopaths?

Sableagle wrote:and it's exacerbated by a culture in which The HeroTM Saves The WorldTM with a handgun.
Yes, but even this doesn't go back far enough. Why is this a trope?

jewish_scientist wrote:If a fight between two students broke out or someone was caught with drugs, it would be more appropriate for a police officer to handle the situation than a teacher.
That is exactly why police in the schools are a bad idea. A fight between twelve year olds should not become a police matter. I'm not even sure a student who has some weed should become a police matter. The damage done by making it (and pretty much anything else the school wants) a police matter is that children absorb the idea that, by default, they are not to be trusted, and must be monitored under arms. That continues into adulthood, where facebook gleefully provides the monitoring.

This is a Very Bad ThingTM, but it's also an externality that won't be seen for ten or twenty years, so is politically safe to ignore.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:45 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The majority of suicides occur while under the influence of alcohol and/or benzo...thing. Suicides themselves are more of a spur of the moment thing rather than planned, though planned ones do happen. So, do you plan to restrict alcohol and benzothingies more than they already are?


No more than I plan to restrict guns or anything else. Substance abuse is just another symptom generally.
Completely agree. Approximately nobody is just randomly deciding to kill themselves because they're drunk or otherwise under the influence. These people have mental health conditions and are self medicating (badly).

Healthcare for mental illness is broken in the US, even more than healthcare for other things. There's your low hanging fruit for if you want to throw money somewhere that would make a real difference.


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