Trump presidency

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Plasma_Wolf
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Plasma_Wolf » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:35 pm UTC

Don't let Trump read that bit of text. We all understand that you're simply stating some facts (and I would have liked if you could remember the source, but that's not that important right now), but Trump, or any lunatic who agreed to this decision would say exactly what you wrote, but leave out the last line and say "We must import all the asbestos we can, right now #MakeAsbestosGreatAgain!!!"

:roll:

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CorruptUser
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

Could we convince him to line the oval office with asbestos?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Could we convince him to line the oval office with asbestos?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Hn&ampcf=1
His staff isn't stupid, they know the risks, and take steps to mitigate it... For their bosses. It's just that your lives aren't worth the money, and Republicans are willing to lie to everyone about it.
My other favorite is the Chicago water safety guy claiming water is safe from lead while he drinks only filtered water. Can't find a link for that one.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:29 pm UTC

I think that was Flint?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:55 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:As an aside, I thought I'd read somewhere that asbestos was a net benefit overall, i.e. it has been responsible for more lives saved in fires than lives lost from asbestos-related diseases. I can't remember where I read it, and can't find any statement like it on the Intertubes. From what I have found, annual worldwide deaths from fire (in 2004) were around 150,000 whereas the figure for asbestos-related deaths (for the same year) was about 107,000. Rate of fire deaths have reduced by a factor of 10 since the early 20th Century (Enlightenment Now, Pinker 2018), but that is the result of many different interventions (sprinklers, alarms, fire escapes, etc.), so fire retardant building materials including asbestos are only responsible for a fraction of those 1.3m or so lives saved per year.

Of course this does't mean we should reintroduce asbestos: we have materials that are fire retardant and much less hazardous to health. (Also it's only about deaths and doesn't consider impairment to quality of life).


Another large factor is that asbestos deaths often come with a significant delay. At some point later in your life, bam, your lungs are shit. Not a lot anyone can do to fix it. So, yeah, you can get some time in which the numbers look great before the health bill comes due.

I'm okay with revisiting old laws to see if maybe folks were historically paranoid(pot is an obvious example), but asbestos isn't really a borderline case. The stuff's really dangerous.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:07 pm UTC

So dangerous in fact, that some scientists are freaking out over carbon nanotubes which structurally resemble asbestos fibers but have yet to (provably) kill anyone.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:24 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Another large factor is that asbestos deaths often come with a significant delay. At some point later in your life, bam, your lungs are shit. Not a lot anyone can do to fix it. So, yeah, you can get some time in which the numbers look great before the health bill comes due.

I was assuming that 2004 was close to the peak for asbestos deaths, considering it had stopped being used some decades earlier and was used a lot for several decades before that. However, that's probably just in the developed world. There are probably people in Bangladesh right now breaking up old ships full of asbestos without any precautions being taken. Hell, the damned stuff is probably still being installed somewhere.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:Don't let Trump read that bit of text. We all understand that you're simply stating some facts (and I would have liked if you could remember the source, but that's not that important right now), but Trump, or any lunatic who agreed to this decision would say exactly what you wrote, but leave out the last line and say "We must import all the asbestos we can, right now #MakeAsbestosGreatAgain!!!"

:roll:

I know what you mean, but I refuse to lower myself to Trump et al's level of stupid soundbites and extreme oversimplification --- at least on this forum, where I believe I can take it for granted that it's ok to discuss the detail and nuance of a subject. Those of us who believe in reason and science mustn't let the shrillness of public debate silence us for fear of being misinterpreted or taken out of context.

But yeah, just to be clear, asbestos is bad shit.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:18 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So dangerous in fact, that some scientists are freaking out over carbon nanotubes which structurally resemble asbestos fibers but have yet to (provably) kill anyone.


Honestly, I don't mind a bit of caution and testing there. Better to do that up front before incurring huge potential risks.

orthogon wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Another large factor is that asbestos deaths often come with a significant delay. At some point later in your life, bam, your lungs are shit. Not a lot anyone can do to fix it. So, yeah, you can get some time in which the numbers look great before the health bill comes due.

I was assuming that 2004 was close to the peak for asbestos deaths, considering it had stopped being used some decades earlier and was used a lot for several decades before that. However, that's probably just in the developed world. There are probably people in Bangladesh right now breaking up old ships full of asbestos without any precautions being taken. Hell, the damned stuff is probably still being installed somewhere.


That's fair. I'm not certain exactly what global usage profiles look like, but it's definitely still a factor in houses. You buy an old house, and surprise, find asbestos inside. I don't know how long it takes before we can assume that pretty much all of the costs have been discovered and paid, but it seems to have an extremely long tail.

I think to get an idea of lives saved vs lost, we'd need to capture that entire element of time, or at least approximate it. Including, as you say, those deaths that happen offshore and may be poorly documented. I suppose there may be niche uses for which asbestos is the only thing that will work, maybe? But that's got to be rare. The US limited asbestos use in construction, but never actually entirely banned it. So long as it makes up less than one percent of the product, asbestos use is unregulated. There are other products it's permitted to be used in as well, even in larger quantities. We did limit stuff like spray-apply asbestos products on the basis of holy shit that's awful, but all forms of the substance are dangerous, and we didn't actually get rid of it all. It's still being used here in the US.

If someone reads that and thinks "hey, maybe we could use it MORE", then....I have concerns.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:35 am UTC

oh,...sigh... I used a piece of woven asbestos when I worked on soldering copper pipe.
I, really, liked that thing! It worked well for preventing me from burning down the house.

We know better, now.
We should Do better.

With one voice we can and should say, 'No.'.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

Trump's Sec'y of Interior, no absolutely no one's surprise, blames California's wildfires on tree-hugging environmentalists rather than on climate change, and claims that the fires (which are fueled mainly by brushy undergrowth) prove that we need more logging (which cuts down big trees)

Ooooookay.

I'm sure that rising sea levels are also the fault of California environmentalists "diverting water to the ocean." Here are Trump's tweets on the subject:

Jaw-droppingly ignorant statement #1
Jaw-droppingly ignorant statement #2

(Last I checked, the Mendocino Complex Fire was still going on close to Clear Lake and the Indian Valley Reservoir, both of which bodies of water are being used by firefighters to make water drops, but you know, facts.)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

Actually, clearcutting does reduce the number of wildfires in that it prevents dead trees and branches from accumulating. The problem is that the fires that do happen are much, much more severe as evenly spaced and sized trees are basically a banquet for fires that do start.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

I mean, that's sorta like saying we can stop almost all cancer by executing everyone over 20. It's technically correct, but also really dumb.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:49 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Actually, clearcutting does reduce the number of wildfires in that it prevents dead trees and branches from accumulating. The problem is that the fires that do happen are much, much more severe as evenly spaced and sized trees are basically a banquet for fires that do start.


Same thing happens due to fire prevention sometimes. The old brush and undergrowth doesn't get cleared away by lots of smaller fires, so when one does light up, it tends to have a surplus of fuel, and can be hard to manage.

That said, can't really do controlled burns when folks have houses there.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
That said, can't really do controlled burns when folks have houses there.
well...Folks have a responsibility to have 100 feet of defendable space.
Clay roofing tiles might be nice, too.

Maybe, we need a regulation requiring tiles on new and replacement buildings.

ech...The fires are burning so hot, none of that will help.
Darn Mediterranean Climate and higher than normal temperatures.
Spoiler:
A Mediterranean climate /ˌmɛdɪtəˈreɪniən/ or dry summer climate is characterized by rainy winters and dry summers. While the climate receives its name from the Mediterranean Basin, where it is commonplace, it is also present in other areas of the planet, such as most of California in the United States,
The conditions inland are, just, awful.
I feel so sad for my people.

We deserve better than what that ... well ...than (gack)

Off Topic:
Spoiler:
Forest fires are interesting.
Did you know Fir Trees Explode!?

When Fir Trees get hot the water inside them turns to steam.
The stream takes up a lot more room than water does. Boom!

That is one of many ways a fire is dangerous.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Plasma_Wolf » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:51 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Trump's Sec'y of Interior, no absolutely no one's surprise, blames California's wildfires on tree-hugging environmentalists rather than on climate change, and claims that the fires (which are fueled mainly by brushy undergrowth) prove that we need more logging (which cuts down big trees)

Ooooookay.

I'm sure that rising sea levels are also the fault of California environmentalists "diverting water to the ocean." Here are Trump's tweets on the subject:

Jaw-droppingly ignorant statement #1
Jaw-droppingly ignorant statement #2

(Last I checked, the Mendocino Complex Fire was still going on close to Clear Lake and the Indian Valley Reservoir, both of which bodies of water are being used by firefighters to make water drops, but you know, facts.)


They should have tweeted that the trees had to be covered in the asbestos they're going to buy.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:48 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
That said, can't really do controlled burns when folks have houses there.
well...Folks have a responsibility to have 100 feet of defendable space.
Clay roofing tiles might be nice, too.

Maybe, we need a regulation requiring tiles on new and replacement buildings.

ech...The fires are burning so hot, none of that will help.


Yeah, unfortunately, if a fire really gets going, it can jump a hundred feet pretty easily. Definitely still a good idea to limit burnable litter and such, but most homes have some flammable stuff about. Hard to be 100% safe from a fire that's hot/fast enough.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:28 pm UTC

umm...Why are we finding it so difficult to talk about the Trump Presidency?
This man and his handlers are effectively chipping away at an imperfect, yet, very good Democracy.

When these things happened in other Nations we were able to talk about it.
What??? The abused rarely want to admit the abuse?

The policies of these White Men are hitting a lot of people.

I have had my medical care effected.
I am in serious danger of losing care.

Grrr....After Years of investigation, the Clintons were Never found to be financially irresponsible.
Yep. Mr. Clinton had a consensual adult sexual relationship.

The Witch Hunt has produced Witches.
More importantly, our institutions may fail under attack from both inside and outside forces.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm UTC

I wouldn't call any government that does the kinds of things the U.S. government has been doing for decades 'very good'. Better than many alternatives sure, but not 'good', and definitely not 'very good'.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:16 pm UTC

Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:mille = thousand
annus = year
anus = asshole


Also, the adjective of the planet Venus is "Venereal", the word "yard" is the original English word for penis, "nothing" is an Elizabethan word for vagina, and the Victorians had so many slang words for "vagina" that you can't write a paragraph without stumbling over half a dozen of them.[/quote]Today I learned of the existence of a railway station called Penistone.

That's not a paint colour I want to have to request in my local art supply shop.


gd1 wrote:"How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price, Gríma? When all the Men are dead, you'll take your share of the treasure?"

Maybe secured oligarchy status in Russia?
"You're gonna be great. Yuge."

SecondTalon wrote:I mean, that's sorta like saying we can stop almost all cancer by executing everyone over 20. It's technically correct, but also really dumb.

Also you'd get sued by Stephen King.

Saw the Trump Duck on TV today, talking about something. It was silent, with Dutch subtitles. I *think* he was talking about Aretha Franklin and saying her voice had been like a gift from God and she'd been loved by everyone ... but I *saw*: "Bored bored bored yada yada yada gods this speech is long :roll: whatever bitch is dead yada yada bored bored who cares anyway she was black bored bored yada yada."

Even Mythbusters managed to polish a turd, but the turd does not polish itself.

Hrm. "In Soviet Russia, turd polish you," perhaps?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:49 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
Spoiler:
Today I learned of the existence of a railway station called Penistone.

That's not a paint colour I want to have to request in my local art supply shop.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:42 pm UTC

Truth isn't truth.

I'm not even sure what to say.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:55 am UTC

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.

(Writ large on the pyramid of the Ministry of the Truth in Chapter One of George Orwell's novel 1984, if I recall correctly.)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:35 am UTC

Thank You, You Two.
I like to see Twitter from Time to Time.
This is my only window into that strange world.

And; Yes.
II read The Book.

And; Yes.
This is eerily similar.

I'm holding my breath.
Everybody! Vote!

And; Make a Hard Copy, somehow.
My state has hard copies. Yours?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:37 am UTC

Honestly, with all the actual actions that Trump's done, between the toddler concentration camps, bringing back asbestos, screwing over Puerto Rico and thus 'encouraging' them to secede, massive tax cut for the rich causing the return of the trillion dollar deficit, end of net neutrality, why is it that the administration's use of mere phrases like "alternative facts" terrifies me the most? Are my priorities wrong?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:44 am UTC

"Alternative facts" represent an existential threat to this country and global stability. The rest can be reversed.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Honestly, with all the actual actions that Trump's done, between the toddler concentration camps, bringing back asbestos, screwing over Puerto Rico and thus 'encouraging' them to secede, massive tax cut for the rich causing the return of the trillion dollar deficit, end of net neutrality, why is it that the administration's use of mere phrases like "alternative facts" terrifies me the most? Are my priorities wrong?


Well, it's a phrase that's really 1982ish. It's a demonstration of the arrogance of power.

It making you feel nervous is natural and reasonable.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:03 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Honestly, with all the actual actions that Trump's done, between the toddler concentration camps, bringing back asbestos, screwing over Puerto Rico and thus 'encouraging' them to secede, massive tax cut for the rich causing the return of the trillion dollar deficit, end of net neutrality, why is it that the administration's use of mere phrases like "alternative facts" terrifies me the most? Are my priorities wrong?


Well, it's a phrase that's really 1982ish. It's a demonstration of the arrogance of power.

It making you feel nervous is natural and reasonable.


I wanted to make a comment about the "1982", then I realized it's actually better that way. Either it's "just before things got really bad" or "It's always been called 1982".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

Hah, error on my part, not intended cleverness, but I like your take on it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:49 pm UTC

Do we have any idea how many people hav Not read The Book?
My guess is loads and loads!

It is a short depressing little book.
Recommend it to any person with a sixth grade reading level.

Do Not recommend 1982.
Recommend Orwell's 1984!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Xeio » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:42 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote: It's a demonstration of the arrogance of power.
Ah, but is it arrogance if republican voters don't actually care about facts anymore?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:24 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Honestly, with all the actual actions that Trump's done, between the toddler concentration camps, bringing back asbestos, screwing over Puerto Rico and thus 'encouraging' them to secede, massive tax cut for the rich causing the return of the trillion dollar deficit, end of net neutrality, why is it that the administration's use of mere phrases like "alternative facts" terrifies me the most? Are my priorities wrong?


Well, it's a phrase that's really 1982ish. It's a demonstration of the arrogance of power.

It making you feel nervous is natural and reasonable.

Yeah, I've been feeling this way too. It's one thing to disagree, perhaps profoundly and energetically, with somebody's policies. You can argue and debate those things, you can protest and demonstrate against them. What we're seeing with "alternative facts", the constant dismissal of "fake news" and so forth is on a whole different level of meta. By calling into question or denying the very notion of facts or the truth, these people (and there are plenty our side of the pond too) try to make it impossible to even get any kind of purchase on the issue at hand. That makes it far more alarming and far more urgent a problem than simply doing bad things.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:01 pm UTC

Oops.
Wrong Thread.

I have a lot to say about our slip into a Dictatorship.
Others are saying it better than I can.
Last edited by addams on Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:02 pm UTC

oops.
Wrong Thread.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Yeah, I've been feeling this way too. It's one thing to disagree, perhaps profoundly and energetically, with somebody's policies. You can argue and debate those things, you can protest and demonstrate against them. What we're seeing with "alternative facts", the constant dismissal of "fake news" and so forth is on a whole different level of meta. By calling into question or denying the very notion of facts or the truth, these people (and there are plenty our side of the pond too) try to make it impossible to even get any kind of purchase on the issue at hand. That makes it far more alarming and far more urgent a problem than simply doing bad things.


Yeah. There's room for different values, different interpretations, etc. There really isn't room for different facts. Ultimately, something happened or it didn't.

I can understand *some* bashing of "fake news" because standards of journalism are sometimes low. But not to the extent that people can just make up whatever. That's not calling out the problem, that's using it as an excuse to do a shitload more of the same.

I'm not terribly happy with the state of public discourse as a result. Far too much metaphorically talking over, instead of actually communicating.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:16 pm UTC

Different values?
Different interpretations?

The man is a Creep.
Objective Truth.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Jumble » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:11 pm UTC

+1


(sorry, you all get cross when I do this..)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:00 pm UTC

Cohen, pleads guilty on 8 counts, says he made payoffs for affairs at the direction of an unnamed candidate. Manafort found guilty on 8 counts.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/manafo ... ts-n901231
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-cour ... rs-n902571
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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addams
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

Thank You, Thesh.
When ya' hunt Witches ya' find Witches.

These Droids are not the Witches you were looking for.
These Droids are high rolling, mob related, potentially dangerous criminals.

Is that what you were looking for?
Looks like they may start falling out of the trees.

Oh! Oh! What about the Proof! the Creep's pick for the Court is a liar?
Has the office of records handed over the transcripts, yet? (Jerks!)
Spoiler:
Grumble, Grumble...
How dare they take down our Nation from the inside??
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:59 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Cohen, pleads guilty on 8 counts, says he made payoffs for affairs at the direction of an unnamed candidate.


Unnamed? Why, whoever could it be? What a mystery this is.

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Pfhorrest
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:08 pm UTC

addams wrote:When ya' hunt Witches ya' find Witches.

I'm sure it wasn't the intention, but given the history of actual witch hunts and the meaning of the idiom about them, it sounds like this is saying that the "witches" now found were only declared witches because someone went looking to call someone witches, and not because they were actually Satan's concubines or anything.
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