Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:05 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:No, there is absolutely no way to interpret anything I have written as saying that people should be forcibly removed from their country to return it to the native people.


No, instead you advocate Manifest Destiny, the Trail of Tears, and other bullshit.

also Thesh wrote:What we should address is why not having access to one specific want leads to unhappiness. We aren't talking a huge amount of change, or even getting rid of the idea of heritage, just making it so that ancestry isn't so important that they can't be happy without the possessions of their ancestors. Personally, I don't think this problem really exists to a degree that warrants discussion.
...
Let's be clear, we are talking about sending people with weapons to remove someone from their home. Explain to me why ancestry is more important than occupation.
...
To be clear, we are talking about someone who wants to live in their ancestral home, but can't because other people live there. It's a much smaller concession for the person to just not live in their ancestral home, then it is for the state to remove someone from their home.


also Thesh wrote:Also, you need to consider the long term consequences, not just the people today. If you keep making concessions to cultures that are in conflict with society, then those conflicts will never get resolved. if people stop making ancestry so important, the conflicts disappear and everyone is better off. Cultures die. Let them.




"Those Palestinians should just give up and move out, because Israel is occupying their land, and occupation is more important than ancestry."

"Native American culture should just die out, since their culture is in conflict with ours, and we're occupying the land, so its more important than their ancestry."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:13 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Thesh wrote:recent

And maybe that's really the crux of the issue here - what counts as recent? Not too sure about the laws in the United States, but 200 years ago there were laws in Canada where the government would pay for Native American scalps. Some of those laws were still on the books at the turn of this century (though hadn't actually been used for a time before that). Yes, we have since built houses on that land... but I don't think it's really good enough to just say, "Okay, sorry, but we're using that land now. You can have this other land over here instead. It's more or less the same, so just be happy with that, okay?" I'm not saying that we should tear down those houses and give the land back, but more needs to be done to resolve that conflict.

The Israel/Palestine conflict is even more recent. The creation of Israel back in 1948 was a pretty muddled affair in the first place, but taking the West Bank and Gaza strip in 1967 is a much more clear-cut example of occupation. That's 50 years ago, so there are almost certainly people who previously lived in those homes who are still alive, yet cannot go back for fear of persecution. They have homes now. Why can't they just be happy there? This is a super complex issue that deserves a much more nuanced view than you're presenting. Even looking to the future, it seems like you're suggesting these sorts of conflicts just won't happen. I don't know how you can say that when looking at our past human behavior.


The thing is, the problems faced by Native Americans, descendants of slaves, etc. is not just a particular home. It's a lot more complicated than that, and it's not solved by returning some pieces of property. I'm all in favor of reparations, and I think we have a duty to correct the injustice in our society today, but the ancestral house is petty in comparison to the suffering that has been imposed on various peoples, and returning a few properties is going to do nothing to end that suffering.

Seriously, the Israel/Palestine conflict is not just a few people who want their ancestral house back, but just don't have the ability. Stop equating homes to nations. It makes this conversation a fucking mess. The analogy between homes and countries doesn't work, and I'm not using it at all.


@eran_rathan

What a complete load bullshit.
Last edited by Thesh on Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:19 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:History being messy, plenty of situations exist in which more than one group of people would like to live in a place, and would very much like if the other group did not.


The “very much like if the other group did not” tends to be the flashpoint in most conflicts over who gets to control land.

We do have enough land for all to live where they want in the sense of “if the money is available to buy it, we could build enough high-rises and transit to house thirty million people within the current boundaries of (insert city here). That may not satisfy those people who absolutely insist on having a single-family unit instead of a condominium or apartment in a high-rise, but there would be no shortage of overall livable units.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:25 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:It's a lot more complicated than that, and it's not solved by returning some pieces of property. I'm all in favor of reparations, and I think we have a duty to correct the injustice in our society today, but the ancestral house is petty in comparison to the suffering that has been imposed on various peoples, and returning a few properties is going to do nothing to end that suffering.

Sure, I agree. What got this whole tangent started though was when you said this:
Thesh wrote:With respect to the housing analogy, it should also be said that everyone can have their own private space on this planet, without it coming into conflict with anyone else.
...
The idea that there is a simple set of rules that can be applied universally to determine right and wrong is such complete bullshit. The idea that anyone who claims land gets to decide what to do with it as long as they can defend that claim with violence should be the rule that serves as the basis for right and wrong is fucking insane.

Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:36 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.


You do realize that I've address that several times, right? What you are saying might make sense if you take that as a statement on the current situation, and not a hypothetical example for the sake of discussing moral rules. Context matters, and by ignoring the context and focusing on current conflicts you get an interpretation that doesn't make sense.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
SDK wrote:Do you agree now that this was overly simplistic? Just because everyone owning land without conflict is theoretically possible, doesn't necessarily make it possible (conflict will always exist). Just because the inhabitants of a certain piece of land don't choose what's morally right and wrong, doesn't mean they don't need to defend their homes (with violence if necessary) from those who would hurt them or their society.


You do realize that I've address that several times, right? What you are saying might make sense if you take that as a statement on the current situation, and not a hypothetical example for the sake of discussing moral rules. Context matters, and by ignoring the context and focusing on current conflicts you get an interpretation that doesn't make sense.

Can we take this to a separate thread? The Trump thread has a bad enough reputation as a shit show.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

You're right, sardia. Probably a good idea to drop it anyway. I just realized that we're talking past each other here anyway since our disagreement is way more fundamental than I thought.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:16 pm UTC

On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

Regarding Kavanaugh, one thing that I haven't heard discussed much about him is his deep connections to the cosmetics industry. Specifically, his father, Ed Kavanaugh, was an influential lobbyist for the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrance Association and is a key figure in said industry's decades long fight against FDA regulation generally, and covering up the carcinogenic effects of talc (i.e. baby powder) specifically. Johnson & Johnson was recently ordered to pay out a whopping 4.6 billion for the talc issue... a case that Kavanaugh may have the opportunity to rule on if J&J continues to appeal (John Roberts also worked for Ed Kavanaugh in this same industry, incidentally).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:46 am UTC

This is a pretty great article that goes into some of the minutiae of the Trump transition.

If nothing else, it introduced me to the notion of "The Sammies", a series of awards that go to federal employees for achieving excellence in their respective fields (which is a great idea, and one that I'm glad to know exists).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:03 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Prefanity » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:06 am UTC

Sableagle wrote:
ijuin wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:On the note of finding something else to chat about, I give you the Trump/Kanye meeting transcript.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/10/12/heres-every-word-kanye-wests-bizarre-meeting-president-trump/1609230002/


It appears that Trump has finally met a bigger showstealer than himself.


"Yo, Donnie, I'm happy for you and I'm a-let you rule, but Barack Obama was the best president of all time OF ALL TIME!"


Which would be fun to hear, but Obama called West a "jackass" for this very outburst at the VMAs, and this call out probably bears some weight in why West is pro Trump now.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:24 am UTC

For one, I think Kanye kind of admits fault over that incident... As much as he could bring himself to. I doubt he would be half as concerned with the president calling him a jerk as much as the uglier things all his peers were saying.

For another, It's not surprising that Kanye would be pro-trump given how prone he is to conspiracy theories. American conspiracy communities were the original signal amplifier for Russian propaganda. They were beyond groomed by the time the elections approached, when suddenly more and more conspiracies emerged and there was a lot of excitement for real anti-corruption change. A wrecking ball president to destroy the systems that protected the baby-eating Clinton estate and the sinister Democratic party, or the deepstate that controls both, or whatever else that was invented to make people angry. Restore order, hurt the invisible enemy, MAGA. The same source for their intense excitement was also coincidentally painting trump as a victim, a hero, a solution. It was so easy. If someone isn't entirely sure about the veracity of the first moon landing then it's extremely likely that they're on trump's wheelless wagon.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:11 pm UTC

Normally I don't like SNL, especially the Trump segments, but this is just a perfect summary of the Kanye Trump meeting

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:14 am UTC

Trump suggests "rogue killers" entered the Saudi consulate and murdered a journalist there, then sends our highest-ranking diplomat to meet with the king.
Last edited by iamspen on Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:24 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 am UTC

On a totally unrelated note, the consulate received a bunch of mops and cleaners prior to the arrival of investigators.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/ ... late-ahead
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:08 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:Trump suggests "rogue killers" entered the Saudi consulate and murdered a journalist there, then sends our highest-ranking diplomat to meet with the king.

Something about men who are close to Trump being accused of something unsavory...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:58 pm UTC

I'm not sure which is worse. That Saudi Arabia brutally murdered a journalist (something Russia is notorious for), or that they did so in the gorram consulate. I actually think the consulate is the worse part. When diplomats act in cahoots with assassins, diplomacy becomes problematic.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:26 pm UTC

Traditionally, isn't the purpose of the consulate to provide cover for spies?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:29 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Traditionally, isn't the purpose of the consulate to provide cover for spies?

Spies aren't supposed to murder people. They collect intelligence from locals. If your spies are also in the murder business, the host government would be much less inclined to respect diplomatic immunity.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

I think that's the embassy's job. It's a gentlemen's agreement between countries; every embassy is a den of spies and intel, and you will let our spies and intel play games in our embassies and we will let you play you in yours.

But as Sardia was saying, intelligence gathering is not assassination, sabotage, etc etc. The job of intelligence is to figure out the shape of the room, so to speak, not to do interior decorating with a journalist's viscera.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:17 pm UTC

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... lJ&ampcf=1
With midterms coming with Democrats looking strong (probably), Republicans suddenly remember that fiscal conservatism is important in Democratic years. It inconveniencing Democrats is just a bonus

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:54 pm UTC

I would certainly rather see them spending their time on fiscal conservativism than on pushing to the far right on social issues (e.g. the whole family separation at the border crap).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:I would certainly rather see them spending their time on fiscal conservativism than on pushing to the far right on social issues (e.g. the whole family separation at the border crap).

No you don't. See in the past, fiscal issues play better with the Democratic base than family separation. Has a patina of legitimacy. It's the GOP version of #resist.
The rest of America will forget in a couple years, and then the GOP is back in charge, as awful as ever.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:18 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
ijuin wrote:I would certainly rather see them spending their time on fiscal conservativism than on pushing to the far right on social issues (e.g. the whole family separation at the border crap).

No you don't. See in the past, fiscal issues play better with the Democratic base than family separation. Has a patina of legitimacy. It's the GOP version of #resist.
The rest of America will forget in a couple years, and then the GOP is back in charge, as awful as ever.

Seems to me that it plays better with the Democratic base because much of that base would rather see them doing that.

It being essentially a bait-and-switch is a meta-issue.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-10-16/mcconnell-blames-entitlements-not-gop-for-rising-deficits&ved=2ahUKEwiXwraau4veAhUP26QKHRpDCzgQyM8BMAB6BAgJEAQ&usg=AOvVaw36UlXpIiRI9bl2nBgGNUlJ&ampcf=1
With midterms coming with Democrats looking strong (probably), Republicans suddenly remember that fiscal conservatism is important in Democratic years. It inconveniencing Democrats is just a bonus

So, if I understand the thrust of that article, a government fully controlled by one party has less power because they might be held responsible for any changes they make? That's pretty fucked up.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

That doesn't seem unreasonable, so long as there exists another party that could take over in the next election. This makes the party in power vulnerable. But, if that other party diminishes enough to no longer be a threat, then The Party has all the power. The trick is to get to that position without anybody realizing that's what's coming.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:27 pm UTC

The reason I say that's fucked up is not just because the people in power are cowards who fear more for their own job than for the country. The reason I say that is this implies Obama's years of getting nothing done were more productive than they would have been otherwise. Doesn't paint the efficiency of the government in a very good light (which, perhaps, was the point).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:47 pm UTC

SDK wrote:...this implies Obama's years of getting nothing done were...
No, that was for a different reason. Obama tried to get things done but was resisted by actual opposing parties. Had Obama had a democratic congress supporting his policies, he might (theoretically) have been reluctant to get things done to avoid taking blame (if he were that type of person). Somebody reluctant to take action is weaker than somebody who is resisted when taking action.

As it happens, due to resistance of Congress, much of what Obama got done was by executive order. But executive orders can be overturned (this happened immediately as soon as Trump took office), and once overturned, they cannot be brought back. A double whammy. So, in effect, by doing something, he ensured that that {something} got permanently undone once the opposition took office.

With this in mind, and knowing Trump was coming, the best move might have been not to play. Which plays right into your observation.

Caveat: The rules changed in the interim; direct comparisons are not as useful as they might be. But illustrative anyway.

SDK wrote:Doesn't paint the efficiency of the government in a very good light
When the government is trying to do Bad Things, do you want it to be efficient? With the populace split on what is a Good Thing and what is a Bad Thing, low government efficiency is a Good Thing.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

My impression as an outsider was that, in Obama's early years, he sought to do things on a bipartisan basis as much as possible, so that the legislation would be as good as possible and the country benefit as much as possible.

The Republicans correctly realised that cooperating with that process would give them no credit - all credit would go to the Democrats and we can't have that. Thus began all possible efforts to delay and obstruct, until Obama finally gave up and railroaded stuff through.

Once the Democrats lost their majorities, the Republicans correctly concluded that the American people rewarded partisan brinkmanship not cooperation, and so doubled down on their obstructionism.

It's not the only reason Trump went on to win, but the dysfunctional legislature during Obama's two terms was certainly a factor in people deciding that there'd be no great loss in voting in a wrecking-ball candidate this time around. Ironically once again rewarding the party who played the biggest role in ensuring government ground to a halt.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:32 pm UTC

Making Congress dysfunctional was literally the Republican strategy, because when people believe the government is failing they are more likely to vote Republican. That it is mostly the fault of Republicans doesn't matter, because the media always takes a neutral position on these things, and right-wing propaganda simply blames Democrats.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:55 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Making Congress dysfunctional was literally the Republican strategy, because when people believe the government is failing they are more likely to vote Republican. That it is mostly the fault of Republicans doesn't matter, because the media always takes a neutral position on these things, and right-wing propaganda simply blames Democrats.


This is what has frustrated me so much about politics here recently. There really isn't anything that the democrats can do, because democrat voters seem to punish their own for these sort of tactics, but the right literally don't care.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:45 am UTC

Except barring extreme circumstances, the Dems do exactly the same thing when there's a Republican in the WH.

This is why we need a three party system, minimum; when one party is blatantly sabotaging another, the public can choose the other opposition party instead.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:17 am UTC

Unfortunately maintaining a three-party system requires a major overhaul to our voting system, which naturally favors two-party systems, which requires that someone who managed to get enough power through the two-party system decide to change that.

I could almost imagine a single-issue Third Party Party, whose only campaign promise is to change the voting system in that way, might stand a chance, if they could somehow motivate the roughly a third of the eligible voting population who don't vote to vote for them, because maybe a big reason why that third of the eligible voting population don't vote is because they hate "both" of the choices.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:19 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Except barring extreme circumstances, the Dems do exactly the same thing when there's a Republican in the WH.

This is why we need a three party system, minimum; when one party is blatantly sabotaging another, the public can choose the other opposition party instead.
freezeblade wrote:
Thesh wrote:Making Congress dysfunctional was literally the Republican strategy, because when people believe the government is failing they are more likely to vote Republican. That it is mostly the fault of Republicans doesn't matter, because the media always takes a neutral position on these things, and right-wing propaganda simply blames Democrats.


This is what has frustrated me so much about politics here recently. There really isn't anything that the democrats can do, because democrat voters seem to punish their own for these sort of tactics, but the right literally don't care.


The difference between corruption in the two parties seems to be that corrupt Democrats have to look and somewhat act like they care where corrupt Republicans don't. Not much changes, but I guess it's a slower burn?

Also, that's why planetside 2 has terran republic, new conglomerate, and vanu sovereignty instead of alliance vs horde.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:29 am UTC

The difference is that one is carried out by an entire party and their donors for political gain, and the other is carried out by individuals for personal gain.

Stop with the bothsidesism.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:40 am UTC

Thesh wrote:The difference is that one is carried out by an entire party and their donors for political gain, and the other is carried out by individuals for personal gain.

Stop with the bothsidesism.


Not sure what you mean specifically, but corruption seems to be pretty universal. Only one I even believe is Bernie.

Also, I'm New Conglomerate myself for the railjack and guided launcher.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:12 am UTC

PFhorrest wrote:I could almost imagine a single-issue Third Party Party, whose only campaign promise is to change the voting system in that way
1: Who'd believe them, and why?
2: If you have an answer to #1, you could use that to run yourself, then break the promise and do whatever you wanted.
3: See #1.

Jose
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duodecimus
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 12:25 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby duodecimus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:16 am UTC

At what point does the American people ask for outside help to 'drain the swamp'? Think you'd be willing to let the UN do some spring cleaning? Maybe Canada?

Even ignoring trumping, things are messed up. Didn't half of your population get their identities stolen last year? Name, birthday, ssn and place of residence for half your population is up for grabs, what if someone just sat down with that data and filled in 140 million absentee votes? You just had a serious case of election manipulation, shouldn't there be more worry about this?


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