The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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Quizatzhaderac
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm UTC

I'll be interested to see if, which, and how any religious leaders weigh in on this.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby asoban » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:57 am UTC

I'll be interested to see if, which, and how any religious leaders weigh in on this.


No More Deaths, the group that he's a part of, is faith-based. From their site, "Since 2008 we have been an official ministry of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Tucson." From wikipedia, "No More Deaths was founded in 2004 by area religious leaders, including Catholic bishop Gerald Kicanas, Presbyterian minister John Fife, and leaders of the local Jewish community."

TBH, despite the conflation of religious types with racists, this is much more in line with my experience of Christianity then racism is.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:06 pm UTC

asoban wrote:No More Deaths, the group that he's a part of, is faith-based. From their site, "Since 2008 we have been an official ministry of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Tucson." From wikipedia, "No More Deaths was founded in 2004 by area religious leaders, including Catholic bishop Gerald Kicanas, Presbyterian minister John Fife, and leaders of the local Jewish community."

TBH, despite the conflation of religious types with racists, this is much more in line with my experience of Christianity then racism is.


people conflate us christianity with racism because that is a historical fact. the actual history of christianity in this country as a dominant social force has been a history, frequently, of using and exerting its power specifically as a force for racist oppression, and it's literally disingenuous toxic bullshit to pretend otherwise. the presence of individual congregations and pastors who have worked towards good (who have always existed! and will always exist! and nobody is denying them!) is not a counter to the blatant historical fact that from the inception of america the social force of christianity has been weaponized and is still weaponized today as a tool for oppression and people like you who say "well, my experience is that individual christians like these people at no more deaths [lmao the unitarian universalists aren't even christian my friend are we supposed to applaud all of christianity for a pluralistic ministry mostly being carried out by the type of radical anarchists that the majority of current us christians shit on] are doing good therefore i don't know why y'all say christianity is racist" literally just are spewing disingenous vomitous garbage over the entire history and present reality of racial minorities, especially black people, in this country.

the southern baptist church -- the largest protestant denomination in the us! -- LITERALLY FUCKING EXISTS because of slavery, a fact white people and especially white christians want to dance around A Lot. like that's the whole-ass reason for its existance, and even with waning membership today it still holds a lot of sway in this country, and the entire reason it came to be is explicitly to support slavery, religiously. so that white people would have a church that threw god's name behind their torture and enslavement of my people.

(the catholics didn't have a ton of power in the us at this time but please let us not try to pretend they were hugely better, where they were allowed to do so catholic churches absolutely owned slaves and only reluctantly and grudgingly started selling them off after the british government pressured the pope to condemn the slave trade and even then they hemmed and hawwed like hmm, wellllll, did he really mean we can't own people?? maybe he only meant the slave trade itself is bad, probably it's still okay to enslave the people we already have.)

thru the civil rights era again people want to point to individual congregations/pastors/christians as some emblem of christianity being a Beacon of antiracism and ignore the fact that this wasn't true of the MAJORITY of places and an ENORMOUS amount of backlash was coming directly from churches (which were! still! segregated! and wanted to stay that way! and fighting against changing!)

today these things still express themselves! some 75% of evangelicals support trump (i am not gonna get into with you the staggering levels of racism this administration has displayed but if you want to express support for the work of no more deaths and then conversely say that supporting trump is Not Racist you aren't even worth a conversation)

and, by the way, among those groups support has gone UP since we started locking kids in cages where they get sexually assaulted! heyo!

plus we're living in a time (again!) where literal nazis are regularly marching in the streets ALSO ARMED with a christian-based explicit white supremacy and that isn't helping the image any!

it's not a thing you can #notallchristians away. it's true! there's liberal christians who are doing good shit! but, like, the plain fact of the matter is that the entire goddamn history of america (including the present day) is shaped by ugly, harmful, deadly racism, and it needs concerted ongoing work -- not just piecemeal acts of charity -- to dismantle, structurally -- in order to combat. and until we get to a point where our entire country isn't shaped by those systems, where our lives and wellbeing isn't at the mercy of christian bigotry, where christian bigotry isn't makes laws that decide who lives and who dies! then people will probably keep this idea that christianity is bigoted. because when christianity is built into the system that governs us, it doesn't matter if individual christians are decent people doing decent things. those decent people are probably not going to save my life, statistically speaking, when the balance of law & social systems are set against me.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:03 pm UTC

asoban wrote:
I'll be interested to see if, which, and how any religious leaders weigh in on this.


No More Deaths, the group that he's a part of, is faith-based. From their site, "Since 2008 we have been an official ministry of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Tucson." From wikipedia, "No More Deaths was founded in 2004 by area religious leaders, including Catholic bishop Gerald Kicanas, Presbyterian minister John Fife, and leaders of the local Jewish community."

TBH, despite the conflation of religious types with racists, this is much more in line with my experience of Christianity then racism is.

Is there a point to saying the man citing a religious defense is part of a religious group? It doesn't really answer if his defense is legitimate, or if the court should use religious reasons to discriminate. Nobody cares if you are a person not stirring trouble. People care whether or not a random dude can use religion as a get out of jail card.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:58 pm UTC

I think that the point is that his membership in such a group supports the hypothesis that he is sincere in his stated belief as opposed to pulling the argument out of his ass for the express purpose of escaping legal liability.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby asoban » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:26 pm UTC

I mainly mentioned it because of the question about the reaction. Given that he is apparently supported by an established Church, and it appears to originally established by a group of people from diverse Jewish and Christian denominations, it would seem to me likely that they would have a favorable reaction what he did. Also Ijun has a good point that it shows that the belief is less likely to be a spur of the moment thing.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:51 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Is there a point to saying the man citing a religious defense is part of a religious group?
Two reasons: Firstly, while an individual religious belief is just in theory just as valid under the law as a group one, it is convenient to the judicial process to have objective criteria and subject matter experts on a person's exercise of a particular faith. (Imagine how ridiculous the prosecutor would look saying something about Catholicism with the bishop there contradicting them).

Secondly: These are common religions and commoner religious principles. If a precedent is set permitting the aiding of (without the abetting of) people illegally crossing the border for these people, it will be such a broad exception as to basically be the norm, rather than the exception.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

There was a mail bomb attempt on George Soros, fox news commentary is hard at work trying to make it sound ok to terrorize Jews. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... unoMOXboGG
I'm not sure which is more terrible, that they think it's a liberals false flag, or that Trumpers think they should have finished the job.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sizik » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:There was a mail bomb attempt on George Soros, fox news commentary is hard at work trying to make it sound ok to terrorize Jews. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... unoMOXboGG
I'm not sure which is more terrible, that they think it's a liberals false flag, or that Trumpers think they should have finished the job.


More were sent to the Obamas, the Clintons, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and CNN.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:03 pm UTC

It should also be noted that right-wing media, along with Fox News, all deliberately contributed to this and despite knowing that they have contributed to many terrorist attacks in the past, are still contributing to it - it mostly wouldn't even happen without them. They are all willful supporters of terrorism; if you aren't one of them, they are happy to see you dead.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yablo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

sardia wrote:... fox news commentary is hard at work trying to make it sound ok to terrorize Jews.

I haven't had an opportunity to watch the video, but I don't see any evidence of that claim in the article. It's not exactly a pro-Soros piece, but it specifically calls out a few anti-Soros conspiracy theories as unfounded.

I'm not sure which is more terrible, that they think it's a liberals false flag, or that Trumpers think they should have finished the job.

Are you referring to something in the Comments section? Because again, I don't see any evidence in the article itself.

Thesh wrote:It should also be noted that right-wing media, along with Fox News, all deliberately contributed to this and despite knowing that they have contributed to many terrorist attacks in the past, are still contributing to it - it mostly wouldn't even happen without them. They are all willful supporters of terrorism; if you aren't one of them, they are happy to see you dead.

There's no reason to note an untrue garbage narrative.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
Thesh wrote:It should also be noted that right-wing media, along with Fox News, all deliberately contributed to this and despite knowing that they have contributed to many terrorist attacks in the past, are still contributing to it - it mostly wouldn't even happen without them. They are all willful supporters of terrorism; if you aren't one of them, they are happy to see you dead.

There's no reason to note an untrue garbage narrative.


George Soros was attacked purely because right-wing media needed a demon to scare people about Marxism and socialism, and he was a convenient target. The objective was literally to make conservatives hate and fear him, not because of what he does, but because of what he represents. They did this knowing that they grow white supremacist movements, they do this today knowing that they created the Pizzagate conspiracy that caused an armed man to attack a random small business. There was literally a bunch of Proud Boys assaulting Antifa members in a video, and Fox News said the people doing the attack were Antifa, and pretty much ignore the Proud Boys who literally came out of a reenactment of the murder of a Japanese Socialist by a fascist, in much larger numbers and instigating violence. Why? Because they are against the existence of leftists, and they are not against white supremacist terrorist attacks.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yablo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:The objective was literally to make conservatives hate and fear him, not because of what he does, but because of what he represents.

I would agree with this point, but not the rest. I don't see how this attack is in anyway supported or exalted by Fox News or that they deliberately contributed to the attack. You may not like Conservatives or the media outlets which cater to them, but believe it or not, the vast majority of us would never condone this sort of attack.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:44 pm UTC

You can't see how having a very large amount of media dedicating to making people on the right fear and hate people on the left, even when it repeatedly kills people is deliberately contributing? No fucking shock there.

"People can't be responsible for what other people do with their words, even if they are deliberately manipulating people into behaving a certain way that predictably leads to terrorist attacks. Because freedom of speech; plus antifa is just as bad as the actual terrorists killing people. And if I don't condone it, it doesn't matter if I completely ignore it while voting for people who don't give a shit and will dedicate themselves to dismantling all left-wing organizations and civil rights protections that might give anyone any protections from this violence."
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:56 pm UTC

Trump has literally praised people for physically attacking reporters. "any guy who can do a body slam ... he's my guy"

Trump has said that CNN is the "Enemy of the People": "Look at [...] CNN [...]! Enemy of the People!"

Trump has repeated conspiracy theories about George Soros: “paid professionals only looking to make Senators look bad.”

Trump amplifies messages by the inventor of the PizzaGate conspiracy, Posobiec. The PizzaGate conspiracy theory is about the Clintons running a child abuse ring out of a pizza parlor.

Do you vote for people who incite violence against reporters? Do you vote for people who declair media who doesn't fawn over them "Enemy of the People"? Do you vote for people who amplify and repeat insane conspiracy theorists that have already resulted in people being shot?

Do you vote for people who don't kick people who do that out of their party and ostracize them?

This isn't "some republican somewhere", this is the de-facto leader of the main conservative party in the USA. That the center of gravity of the US conservative movement.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

Yes yablo, the comments section. While fox will not openly glorify the alt right, it does choose what news to publish. For example, if I wanted to scare people into voting for law and order I would:
Post a lot about crimes of immigrant on white crime. Even though it's rare.
Post about police getting attacked even though it's rare.
If you only read fox news, you'd think that ms13 was more dangerous than the alt right terrorists. Or think police officers were dying faster than they can be replaced. Both are false.

Edit there's also the constant click bait articles about hot women doing non-controversial stuff. That's bad, but harder to prove to conservatives.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:52 am UTC

The four-page document, titled “Biblical Basis for War,” goes point-by-point over how a Christian theocratic movement could – and should – exterminate its opposition in a battle to win a hypothetical holy war.

At the outset, Shea’s holy army would issue terms of surrender to its enemies. The demands include “stop all abortions,” “no same-sex marriage,” “no idolatry or occultism,” “no communism,” and “must obey Biblical law.”

If the rest of the country refuses to “yield” to these terms, the document advocates a final solution: “kill all males.”


If anyone shoots him, try to get me on the jury so I can find them not guilty on the grounds they were acting in self-defence.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:24 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
The four-page document, titled “Biblical Basis for War,” goes point-by-point over how a Christian theocratic movement could – and should – exterminate its opposition in a battle to win a hypothetical holy war.

At the outset, Shea’s holy army would issue terms of surrender to its enemies. The demands include “stop all abortions,” “no same-sex marriage,” “no idolatry or occultism,” “no communism,” and “must obey Biblical law.”

If the rest of the country refuses to “yield” to these terms, the document advocates a final solution: “kill all males.”


If anyone shoots him, try to get me on the jury so I can find them not guilty on the grounds they were acting in self-defence.

Technically, a female defendant would probably have a stronger case for defense of others.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:10 pm UTC

He seems to want them as chattel breeding stock.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

You know, I read all that and was like "eh, fairly typical crazy-person manifesto stuff." Then I opened the article and found out that the guy is actually a member of the Washington state legislature. That's, uh, interesting.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:01 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:You know, I read all that and was like "eh, fairly typical crazy-person manifesto stuff." Then I opened the article and found out that the guy is actually a member of the Washington state legislature. That's, uh, interesting.



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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:14 pm UTC

WriteBrainedJR wrote:
Sableagle wrote:
...
If the rest of the country refuses to “yield” to these terms, the document advocates a final solution: “kill all males.”


If anyone shoots him, try to get me on the jury so I can find them not guilty on the grounds they were acting in self-defence.

Technically, a female defendant would probably have a stronger case for defense of others.


Either should be fairly safe in claiming self defense if such a plan began to be enacted, sure. It's pretty far beyond the pale.

My question's mostly "how the shit did this guy get elected"?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:20 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:My question's mostly "how the shit did this guy get elected"?
I've been asking that myself a lot lately. I don't recognize the country I live in.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

I mean, some of my state legislature is batshit crazy too, but they at least usually stop short of openly advocating genocide.

Idle thought...I wonder if anyone's ever compiled a list of the craziest state politicians across the US. The bar for them seems substantially lower than national level sorts, as they get a lot less publicity, but that'd be the kind of Buzzfeed article I'd actually want to read.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:51 pm UTC

Maine probably gets a bunch. The people that end up as state legislators were the same people you would see behind the grocery store checkout counter, which is pretty great in the "politicians in touch with the common man" sense, but I am slightly elitist in the sense that I'd prefer a professor, doctor, sheriff, manager, judge, or local city councilman etc to be state senator. But that's Maine. Was once talking to a guy, who was the building inspector for his town. He had never worked in construction or had any relevant experience, and said he just went into a building and said "yeah, that doesn't look like a death trap, so you pass".

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Maine probably gets a bunch. The people that end up as state legislators were the same people you would see behind the grocery store checkout counter, which is pretty great in the "politicians in touch with the common man" sense, but I am slightly elitist in the sense that I'd prefer a professor, doctor, sheriff, manager, judge, or local city councilman etc to be state senator. But that's Maine.


I'm okay with the service industry and other such professions being represented. Everyone's got interests, after all. But you kind of hope it'll be a really good sort of person out of each industry. The experienced logger who can bring insight into the field and it's interactions with others.

But we don't really need the crazy aspect of society.

Was once talking to a guy, who was the building inspector for his town. He had never worked in construction or had any relevant experience, and said he just went into a building and said "yeah, that doesn't look like a death trap, so you pass".


Ugh. Yeah, these kinds of inspections are strangely common. Wasted money, in many cases. I'm not a professional builder, but even I can often spot a ton of things that are not to code in...pretty much any building I've ever lived in or spent much time in. Electrical boxes not secured within the wall, ridiculous ducting, shitty drainage, dishwasher water run through garbage disposal so it can back up...I pretty much just assume that any house is likely to have at least a few random crazy issues for no good reason, and inspectors are a waste of money/potential obstacle, not anything of value.

That's where it'd be useful to have a guy with trade experience, at least. Maybe he wouldn't catch everything, but he'd at least know a handful of telltale warning signs.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/05/66064253 ... deo-gamers
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:06 pm UTC

Just read this, about right-wingedness, which I suppose is related.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Just read this, about right-wingedness, which I suppose is related.

Yeah, but what stood out to me was the use of humor to fish for underlying hate. Make a joke at the expense of women/minorities/blacks, and see if they laugh. Then slowly get more explicit. Sometimes I laugh at a bad joke just to get them to go further. Then you'll know if they are closet racists. Of course, some don't need much prompting, and will go off whether you laugh or not. Those people need help... And a beat down.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:52 am UTC

Forced Re-education Of Muslims In China
Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Muslims are being or have been detained. They are being subject to various Reeducation including being forced to eat pork and drink alcohol. New legislation has been passed broadening power to detain.

The in Article 9 prohibited activities include activities to “promote and disseminate the idea of extremism”, “Intervening in normal cultural and recreational activities, rejecting or rejecting public goods and services such as radio and television”, “Generalizing the concept of halal, expanding the concept of halal to other fields outside the field of halal food, and rejecting and interfering with the secular life of others by the name of the truth”, “Not allowing children to receive national education and hinder the implementation of the national education system”, “publishing, printing, distributing, selling, producing, downloading, storing, copying, consulting, exchanging, holding articles, publications, audio and video containing extreme content”, “Deliberately interfering with or undermining the implementation of the family planning policy”, and “Other extreme speeches and behaviors.”

With the vague definition of extremism, the list of prohibited activities in Article 9 sets an incredibly dangerous precedent. Indeed, these activities refer to practices that would otherwise be allowed in accordance with basic rights to freedom of expression, freedom of religion or belief (and especially religious manifestation or the parental right to educate their children in accordance with parent’s religious beliefs). All are protected under international standards. (Although, it is noteworthy that while China signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in 1998, it has never ratified it.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:44 am UTC

Stupid question. Why are Republicans seeming to make a bigger stink over this than Democrats?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zamfir » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:24 am UTC

The letter itself says " [CECC] Chairs Lead Bipartisan Letter Urging Administration to Sanction Chinese Officials Complicit in Xinjiang Abuses". The republicans mentioned above are those chairs, presumably because they represent the majorities. I suppose it's a shared understanding that Eastasia is going to be the enemy for the coming years.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:55 am UTC

Coming years? We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:10 pm UTC

I think there are multiple reasons. I do think it is bipartisan and the Rs just happen to be the ones in power who hold the chairs, I think it is unlikely that this stops with Muslims (it isn't like they are very friendly toward other religions and I guarantee there are people in power profiting off of this that want it to continue and expand), and I think this is a policy that is an easy non controversial target (and one that Trump hasn't jumped in front of) to attack the consolidation of power going on in China.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Stupid question. Why are Republicans seeming to make a bigger stink over this than Democrats?


Mostly, Democrats are outraged about other stuff. There's only so much media bandwidth, etc for expressing disagreement, and Democrats are heavily engaged in domestic partisanship at present. After all, it is election time, and they feel strongly about Trump.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

To be fair, neither side is using any real bandwidth on this. Not locking up a million people and forcing them to perform acts counter to their religion isn't a controversial stance so highlighting it doesn't gain any ground vs the competition.


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:45 pm UTC

Ruth Ginsberg just fell and fractured her ribs, not good. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/08/66559808 ... ing-3-ribs

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:46 am UTC

oh...How discouraging.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:01 pm UTC


Final destination - Las Vegas shooting survivor amongst the dead. Not as much as a coincidence as you'd think as apparently the bar was a meetup spot for survivors :(
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