Italian court says vaccines cause autism

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Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

Okay, this is kind of old news, but I only just found out about it. The gist is that an Italian court awarded over 100,000 euros, which I'm sure is a lot in real money, to a family claiming their child got autism from their MMR vaccine.

Now, as far as I know only one person has ever gotten money over something like this, and even then it wasn't that clear cut. Does anyone know more about what happened? Was this a case like Hannah Poling, where the medical situation was much more complicated? Is it possible that every single physician in the world is complicit in a lie that only a certain Italian judge saw through? Did this court case even happen? I can't find a reference to it anywhere but the new age-y site I linked and the Daily Mail.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby RollingHead » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:07 pm UTC

I missed this when it happened so I don't know any mode details, but recently (as in this past moth) they've allowed parents to refuse to vaccinate their children, which I doubt should be within their individual rights since it endangers others. It's ridiculous that the family won at all, let alone such a large sum (150 000 US$).
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 pm UTC

This reminds me of the Italian case where they blamed seismologists for allegedly failing to predict an earthquake. What the heck, Italian judges?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Jahoclave » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:08 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:This reminds me of the Italian case where they blamed seismologists for allegedly failing to predict an earthquake. What the heck, Italian judges?

They just want to establish their credibility as morons.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby yurell » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:41 am UTC

This is fricken ridiculous. All they're doing is fuelling the bullshit of the anti-vacc organisation which essentially murders thousands of children every year with diseases that should be eradicated.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:19 am UTC

I think there is an extremely harsh form of justice in that the idiots that refuse to get their kids vaccinated are the ones least likely to pass on their genes to the subsequent generations thus slowly solving the problem.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:36 am UTC

How did I miss this story when it came out?

The Italian government is corrupt and inefficient and at this point operating on vox populi, the Catholic church could go back to ruling the place and still persecute science less.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Derek » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:09 am UTC

inb4 measles becomes endemic in Italy.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:15 am UTC

Derek wrote:inb4 measles becomes endemic in Italy.

That and plague outbreaks.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby addams » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:07 pm UTC

yurell wrote:This is fricken ridiculous. All they're doing is fuelling the bullshit of the anti-vacc organisation which essentially murders thousands of children every year with diseases that should be eradicated.


I agree with you in many ways. But, it is not murder. It is more like manslaughter.
This is something we can do something about.
Vaccinate you and yours.

Be kind whenever possible.
Most children are still vaccinated.
The vaccinated ones will protect the unvaccinated ones.

Yes. It is stupid.
No. It is not the end of the world.
Medical personal still know what vaccines protect against.

A child with whooping cough dies of exhaustion.
A child with autism is a bit of a pain in the ass, sometimes.
Besides; Vaccines do not cause autism. Right?

I can not believe, I allow doubt to cross my mind.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:00 pm UTC

addams wrote:But, it is not murder. It is more like manslaughter.


You could say that for the parents. I'm quite sure that a good portion of the leaders of the anti-vax movement are frauds in every sense of the term.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
Derek wrote:inb4 measles becomes endemic in Italy.

That and plague outbreaks.



Maybe this is actually a plan to stimulate the tourism industry by creating a more authentic Ancient Rome, complete with plagues, building collapses, and disaster relief worse than FEMA? A lot of money could be saved too by replacing the penal system with gladiator combat.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:32 pm UTC

addams wrote:Medical personal still know what vaccines protect against.

Unfortunately, medical personal are not the ones who ultimately decide whether or not to vaccinate a child.
addams wrote:I can not believe, I allow doubt to cross my mind.

Unfortunately, this is exactly why children do not get vaccinated.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

I wish there was at least some penalty...let us say financial, for choosing not to vaccinate. That money can be pooled into awareness campaigns and/or fixing the costly problems caused by non vaccinating.

In short, people who don't vaccinate are counting on us to keep them safe via herd immunity, while not repaying that safety, as they compromise herd immunity. I entirely understand if someone has a legitimate medical reason to remain unvaccinated(those def exist), but if they're doing it for anything other than recognized medical reasons, they should pay at least some of the cost they inflict on society, yes?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

Mandatory opt out is fine with me. Driving without insurance carries a fine, afterall.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby RollingHead » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Maybe this is actually a plan to stimulate the tourism industry by creating a more authentic Ancient Rome, complete with plagues, building collapses, and disaster relief worse than FEMA?

Except AFAIK in ancient Rome people actually got punished if the buildings they built collapsed due to shitty construction.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

AFAIK, depended on how well connected they were. Of course, the one most likely to have a building collapse tended to be the one who got the job through connections rather than competence. Someone had to be thrown under the chariot, so the lowly worker would get the blame.

Truly, Rome was nearly as advanced as we are.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Jahoclave » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:09 am UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
Derek wrote:inb4 measles becomes endemic in Italy.

That and plague outbreaks.

Nope, sorry, you're a little late to be a plague hipster.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:12 am UTC

How come the pro-vaccine people here are the ones acting like crazed fanatics?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:14 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:How come the pro-vaccine people here are the ones acting like crazed fanatics?

Whatthewhonow?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:34 am UTC

You know, equating turning down vaccines with murder, implying that anything less than blind faith in the system is some kind of failing, etc. Normally I associate that kind of firebrand rhetoric with fringe groups rather than people who are pretty much backed by the establishment (one Italian court excepted).
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:44 am UTC

yurells statement that the anti-vax movement is responsible for the murders of thousands of children is not hyperbole, any more than it is hyperbole to say that negligent parents who pray for their diabetic child have murdered the kid. The conversation about calling it manslaughter instead also happened.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'blind faith in the system'?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby eculc » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:50 am UTC

That's because, essentially, the (scientifically wrong) announcement has been made that vaccinating your child causes a seriously debilitating mental disorder. I mean, what kind of parent is going to voluntarily give their child autism? that's what is happening behind the scenes -- giving parents a reason (and a good-sounding one, even if it is completely wrong) to not give their children vaccinations against (likely more dangerous) medical conditions. A result of that is that parents decide they have a good reason to not vaccinate their children, and then many of those children will die of the disease.

It's not so much "murder" as enabling parents to make a...not legally wrong, but morally wrong decision not to vaccinate their children, not protecting them from something so dangerous (statistic: measles, which included in the MMR vaccine, Kills ~160,000 people per year globally)

It's an action that I could see being equated to manslaughter, though it's probably deserving of a less serious sentence.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Darryl » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:54 am UTC

eculc wrote:That's because, essentially, the (scientifically wrong) announcement has been made that vaccinating your child causes a seriously debilitating mental disorder. I mean, what kind of parent is going to voluntarily give their child autism? that's what is happening behind the scenes -- giving parents a reason (and a good-sounding one, even if it is completely wrong) to not give their children vaccinations against (likely more dangerous) medical conditions. A result of that is that parents decide they have a good reason to not vaccinate their children, and then many of those children will die of the disease.

Because autism is still not worse than your child dying from a preventable disease. Measles (for example, since MMR is the main implicated vaccine in this pseudo-scientific attack) can still kill, and the only reason it doesn't is because of vaccines (and modern medicine).
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:14 am UTC

I suppose it's the fact that this relates to children that gets normally level headed people so up in arms. I think it's counter-productive though. When you hear someone effectively say "we're right and they're evil", it's extremely off-putting unless you're firmly in their camp already. Whether they actually are right doesn't matter for this purpose of course. It sounds irrational, which is enough to make an already skeptical person more suspicious of vaccines.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:21 am UTC

But we are right, and if you're not willing to get up in arms to stop children from needlessly dying, what's worth getting up in arms over? How would you recommend we handle it?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:27 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:I suppose it's the fact that this relates to children that gets normally level headed people so up in arms. I think it's counter-productive though. When you hear someone effectively say "we're right and they're evil", it's extremely off-putting unless you're firmly in their camp already. Whether they actually are right doesn't matter for this purpose of course. It sounds irrational, which is enough to make an already skeptical person more suspicious of vaccines.

If a crazy hobo walks into my apartment and shits on my carpet, you better bet I'm going to say "That dude was fucking crazy". Similarly, when a group insists on pushing falsified data and emotional manipulations of parents to further their agenda, and this results in the unnecessary death of tens of thousands of children, yes, I feel comfortable saying "Stop shitting on my fucking carpet you crazy hobo"
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby yurell » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:32 am UTC

And let's not forget that it's not just their own children that are being dragged to the bloodied altar of paranoia, but there is a small but not insignificant portion of the population that can't have vaccines of their own for medical reasons, and so are relying on herd immunity. By the deliberate and wilful removal of herd immunity, those people now face dire circumstances. In fact, diseases that were almost eradicated have now come crawling back into the West, thanks to people refusing to vaccinate, and I do place the life of every single man, woman and child who dies or is crippled because of it at the feet of the anti-vax movement.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:39 am UTC

Just like all those people condemning their children to hell by not raising them in the right religion. Unbielivers must be put to the sword (or needle) for the sake of the children! You see the difference because you're already convinced, but if you're trying to change anybody's mind, you should try to differentiate yourself from the crazy hobe. If he comes out looking like the more reasonable of the two sides, you're doing something wrong.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:49 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:Just like all those people condemning their children to hell be not raising them in the right religion. Unbielivers must be put to the sword (or needle) for the sake of the children! You see the difference because you're already convinced, but if you're trying to change anybody's mind, you should act less like the crazy hobo, not more.

Yeah, because seriously, penicillin is for heathens.

People are free to think what they want, but we don't consider praying for your diabetic child to be legally responsible parenting. This is a good thing, and doesn't make US the crazies. You're basically making an argument that public health/herd immunity is a matter of public opinion, and that everyone's opinions deserves equal press; this is wrong, and isn't an ongoing debate we should continue mulling over politely while sipping tea and discussing the various pros/cons of a population resistant to polio. The pro here is 'eradicating disease' or 'grossly reducing the number of children dying to preventable illness', the con is 'I won't still be allowed to shit on your rug'.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:56 am UTC

The bottom line is your lousy arguing style kills babies.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:00 am UTC

So your entire beef here is that people were too rude on an internet thread about an idiotic decision? Like, that our condemnation of the Italian court in this story is somehow indicative of how we would explain to an actual scared parent why vaccinating isn't going to give their kid autism?

Gotcha.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:10 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:The bottom line is your lousy arguing style kills babies.

Careful, people often trip when they backpedal that fast.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby yurell » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:20 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:Just like all those people condemning their children to hell by not raising them in the right religion. Unbielivers must be put to the sword (or needle) for the sake of the children! You see the difference because you're already convinced, but if you're trying to change anybody's mind, you should try to differentiate yourself from the crazy hobe. If he comes out looking like the more reasonable of the two sides, you're doing something wrong.


SCIENCE IS A RELIGION TOO!

That's what you're arguing with your ludicrous equivocation. I claim that their actions are causing harm, which is a demonstrable claim, and one that happens to agree quite strongly with reality. You respond with 'what about hell' which is about as divorced from reality as it goes — where's your evidence that hell exists? Oh, I know, the same place your evidence for vaccines causing autism exists — one's own imagination.

Funnily enough, in this thread I'm not changing anyone's mind, nor do I intend to — they can listen to their doctor, and if they choose not to they can look the information up themselves. The fact that they would rather their child die of a horribly debilitating disease (and possibly take other children with them) than simply look up the vast stockpiles of knowledge humanity has thusfar amassed makes them at best criminally negligent, just as they are in the diabetes example Izawwlgood gave, and at worst it makes the organisations propagating these ideas guilty of mass murder.
If I wanted to change someone's mind, I wouldn't do it in this manner, nor would I do it here, a thread for condemning the actions of a court system that holds geologists responsible for earthquakes and thinks that they can arbitrate that vaccines cause autism.

So please, when discussing someone's outraged condemnation for someone else's actions, consider that they may actually have evidence to back it up, and perhaps not equate it to someone using their imaginary friend as an excuse for genocide.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:35 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So your entire beef here is that people were too rude on an internet thread about an idiotic decision? Like, that our condemnation of the Italian court in this story is somehow indicative of how we would explain to an actual scared parent why vaccinating isn't going to give their kid autism?

Gotcha.

Since I don't know you personally, won't hazard to guess. Sadly I really have heard that same tone taken in situations where it appeared very counter-productive. I do realize nothing was said here with the primary goal convincing anyone that vaccines are necessary. But some of the comments, e.g. suggesting legal penalties are the solution, make me think some here to have pretty much the same attitude in real life.

yurell wrote:SCIENCE IS A RELIGION TOO!

But it's not science. Science tells use science tells us "vaccine x, is y percent effective, has a z rate of side effects, and autism does not appear to be one of them", and such things. It does not tell us "vaccinate your kids or you're evil", and it never will. That moralistic embellishment is what makes it a religion.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:37 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:Just like all those people condemning their children to hell by not raising them in the right religion. Unbielivers must be put to the sword (or needle) for the sake of the children! You see the difference because you're already convinced, but if you're trying to change anybody's mind, you should try to differentiate yourself from the crazy hobe. If he comes out looking like the more reasonable of the two sides, you're doing something wrong.


I can see the similarities you're painting here, but the important difference is that no one can say with objective certainty that choosing to not raise a child in a religion that preaches eternal torture for non-believers will result in eternal torture for that child, especially considering that many people who were raised in non-religious households convert as adults to eternal torture religions. Whereas there is objective certainty that vaccines do not have significant side effects and abstaining from them not only non-trivially raises the chance of the said child dying a horrifyingly needless death, but also non-trivially raises the chance of other children dying horrifyingly needless deaths.

The former inherently relies on rhetoric (and sometimes, embarrassingly, on parlor tricks), the latter need only rely on facts. If anyone can not be swayed by mere facts on the issue, is it not quite likely because they've already been convinced by the tactics that the former relies on, and on an issue that is objectively wrong? Can one convince a zealot to abandon their zealotry politely? Has not their zealotry already sealed their ears and induced deafness, much as a homeopathic ear ache cure once sealed up my mother's ears and deafened her?
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby yurell » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:48 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:But it's not science. Science tells use science tells us "vaccine x, is y percent effective, has a z rate of side effects, and autism does not appear to be one of them", and such things. It does not tell us "vaccinate your kids or you're evil", and it never will. That moralistic embellishment is what makes it a religion.


Wow, both banal and asinine. Not every moral argument is a religion, or do you think that saying 'genocide is wrong and those that willingly perpetuate it are evil*' is equivalent to saying '"Unbielivers [sic] must be put to the sword (or needle) for the sake of the children"? If you do, I've nothing more to say to you because that would be a display of astounding intellectual deficiency.

If, on the other hand, you recognise one can make a moral evaluation without employing religion or the decision itself being religious, then in what way is my point religious? I have a set of moral axioms, and deliberately allowing your children and those of others to suffer & die of easily preventable diseases, or propagating false information that would mislead others into doing so breaks those axioms. It is morally reprehensible, using the rhetoric of 'murder' rather than 'gross negligence that leads to the death of thousands of innocent individuals every year from diseases that are otherwise preventable and close to being wiped out' demonstrates the strength of my feelings in a concise manner. The fact that you can't tell the difference between moral evaluation of a situation and a religion is a complete and utter failing of comprehension on your part.

*For some well-defined definition of 'evil' that would no doubt exist in context
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Torchship » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:36 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:The bottom line is your lousy arguing style kills babies.


The sadly ironic thing is that your lousy arguing style has automatically alienated everyone else in this thread. If you'd brought up your fundamental point (extreme rhetoric tends to alienate neutral or moderate audiences, which is generally true) in a much less aggressive fashion, you might have convinced someone, but after putting everyone on the defensive the chance of that has dropped to zero.
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby D.B. » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:13 pm UTC

So, leaving the accusations of people being fanatics and whatnot and returning to the original discussion...

While I'm entirely pro-vaccine, I must admit to being a bit wary of the idea of levelling fines against those who refuse. Specifically, on the grounds that it seems to be violating someone's bodily integrity by compelling them to undergo a medical procedure or face legal penalties. I think that's where the similarity between this and driving uninsured breaks down for me.

A complicating factor here I suppose is that in general vaccinations are typically given to children, so it's not actually them refusing, but rather their legal guardians. And there's already plenty of other situations where I accept the state stepping in and acting against similar wishes for the perceived well being of a child. So I guess in that respect the argument doesn't seem too bad. But if a fully compos mentis adult were to say to me "I'm aware it makes me more likely to become ill, but I don't wish to be vaccinated," I'd feel very conflicted replying "Tough, it benefits everyone else if you are."
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Re: Italian court says vaccines cause autism

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:20 pm UTC

D.B. wrote:A complicating factor here I suppose is that in general vaccinations are typically given to children, so it's not actually them refusing, but rather their legal guardians. And there's already plenty of other situations where I accept the state stepping in and acting against similar wishes for the perceived well being of a child. So I guess in that respect the argument doesn't seem too bad. But if a fully compos mentis adult were to say to me "I'm aware it makes me more likely to become ill, but I don't wish to be vaccinated," I'd feel very conflicted replying "Tough, it benefits everyone else if you are."


Well if society has decided that its necessary for everyone's benefit that people be vaccinated I can see trying to impose it. Having a fee you pay so you don't need to only makes sense since the cost of you not being vaccinated will get pushed back onto society in at least some way (say medical care for you or people you infect).
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