The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

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The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Sytri » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:08 pm UTC

Story Here

So, is this good for the catholic church? Will a new pope help bring in a renewed faith in the church and turn it into a happier place or will it be out with the old in with the new but pretty much same person?

I have no idea about the movers and shakers within the church, does anyone have any ideas on who could be the next pope?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:34 pm UTC

I think this is kind of interesting from a 'historical organization' perspective; he's the first to step down in over 600 years. That's some long term record keeping.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Tirian » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:51 pm UTC

What it says is that for 600 years Popes have understood that it is better to have the church run on auto-pilot for a few years while the Pope dies of old age than to confess that the Vicar of Jesus Christ lacks the strength to carry out his mission. I'm sure Benedict understands the magnitude of his decision, but I wonder what the next Pope will have to do to assure all of his cardinals and bishops that they should continue to take orders from Rome.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:03 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:Story Here
So, is this good for the catholic church? Will a new pope help bring in a renewed faith in the church and turn it into a happier place or will it be out with the old in with the new but pretty much same person?

Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Sytri » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:05 pm UTC

Also, just had a thought. What benefits a retired pope? What will he become? Does he go back to being Cardinal Ratzinger? (sp?) Does he get to be called pope like all ex-presidents do? How will it affect the nomination of a new pope when the old one is sitting in the corner judging you all?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

First one in 600 years to have a Life After Being Pope right? Guess we'll find out. my guess involves nothing too modern.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:26 pm UTC

Does he still speak with the authority of God? What happens if he contradicts himself/the new Pope?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:29 pm UTC

I think the only job one can get after being the Pope is Santa Claus.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby pseudoidiot » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:30 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Does he still speak with the authority of God? What happens if he contradicts himself/the new Pope?
Two popes enter...
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Diemo » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

The pope is only the voice of God when he uses his special God voice, and these days popes tend to avoid doing it, as it has generally only caused trouble [citation needed]
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.

Not exactly the same. The two frontrunners are a Ghanaian and a Nigerian:

Image Image

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:The two frontrunners are a Ghanaian and a Nigerian

Those guys are pretty much the same as Pope Benedict XVI.

And as far as it goes, the news article I read said the the current pope will likely retire to a monastary after he steps down.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:57 pm UTC

Who knew this was so important.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:58 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:I'm sure Benedict understands the magnitude of his decision, but I wonder what the next Pope will have to do to assure all of his cardinals and bishops that they should continue to take orders from Rome.
Benedict apparently included in one of his books a bit about how popes should retire when they get too old to fulfill their duties, so I think he's trying to set a precedent for the future here.
JudeMorrigan wrote:Those guys are pretty much the same as Pope Benedict XVI.
Fewer misinformed AIDS comments maybe?

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Fewer misinformed AIDS comments maybe?

I wouldn't bet on it. And if there are, I would expect it to be by a very small degree.

Drumheller769 wrote:Who knew this was so important.

This really is a big freaking deal. Regardless of one's opinion of the Catholic Church, it does have an awful lot of members, and this is something that simply does not happen.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

It was more a comment on the refresh thing. Not the actual importance of the issue.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

So... Visene gets the pope out? Unpontifies him? Depopinates? Is he nonpontifexed?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby JBJ » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Does he get to keep the hat?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Diadem » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:What it says is that for 600 years Popes have understood that it is better to have the church run on auto-pilot for a few years while the Pope dies of old age than to confess that the Vicar of Jesus Christ lacks the strength to carry out his mission. I'm sure Benedict understands the magnitude of his decision, but I wonder what the next Pope will have to do to assure all of his cardinals and bishops that they should continue to take orders from Rome.

Like others have said before, he's probably trying to set a precedent.

Anyway, in the past 600 years plenty of popes have been retired from the job. It's just that in the past this almost always involved being retired from life as well. Assassination has always been the preferred method of getting rid of unwanted popes. That kind of retirement is probably a lot less practical these days, though.


Also: Elisabeth II is having a shitty month. First Beatrix, now the pope...
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby leady » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:34 pm UTC

Abdicating to her grandson, because her own children are all a bit clownshoes would raise a bit of a stir.

Being British though we accept anything with a shrug :) even back to back royal dynasties from deepest Deutscheland

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:10 pm UTC

To quote a venerable, if inactive, poster here, "He's kicking the habit."
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Tirian » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Tirian wrote:What it says is that for 600 years Popes have understood that it is better to have the church run on auto-pilot for a few years while the Pope dies of old age than to confess that the Vicar of Jesus Christ lacks the strength to carry out his mission. I'm sure Benedict understands the magnitude of his decision, but I wonder what the next Pope will have to do to assure all of his cardinals and bishops that they should continue to take orders from Rome.

Like others have said before, he's probably trying to set a precedent.


Meh. Like so much else in Benedict's papacy, this is tone-deaf and poorly thought out.

First, all future popes will be now be faced by a barrage of external media asking "Is it time for Pope Jayden to step aside" or whatever. Canon law says that a pope can resign so long as it isn't under duress, but it's hard to imagine that happening in the future now that the toothpaste is out of the tube.

Second, this totally undermines the authority of the next Pope. Benedict (or Cardinal Ratzenberger, who knows?) will go into seclusion and you and I will never see him again, but I've got a nickel that says that his hand-picked legion of cardinals will. That part of history where there were lots of Popes running around and you could follow the one you like the best was arguably not the most productive or spiritual times in the life of the church.

Third, like I said before, this kills even the illusion that you are Heaven's representative on Earth if the Father can't even keep you sufficiently healthy to keep up appearances. The Mandate of Heaven has brought down things as big as the Vatican before.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

I don't think Catholics are of the belief that the Pope gets his authority from his personal health or acumen.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:54 pm UTC

Also, I don't think having the leader of an organization set a precedent where said leaders are allowed to gracefully step down because of health issues/personal issues can be genuinely described as a 'bad thing'.

Saying that this is a miscalculation because it endangers the image of the Pope as an infallible leader presumes that 1) Catholics consider the Pope an infallible leader and 2) The Church wants Catholics to consider the Pope an infallible leader.

EDIT:
JBJ wrote:Does he get to keep the hat?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:27 pm UTC

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the whole point of religion: A progression of increasingly silly hats. Then one day you wake up and you're the Pope.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby yurell » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

What's the bet that the evil old man will retire in comfort, absolved of most responsibility and never have to face justice for his actions?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby ThirdParty » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:20 pm UTC

I've disapproved of Benedict from the beginning, and disliked most of his decisions, but I think I'll make an exception for this one. Resigning is a courageous and progressive choice, and I approve wholeheartedly. (Assuming that it's genuinely for the reasons given, and not because the papers tomorrow are going to be carrying the mother of all sex scandals.)

The office of Pope is, or should be, a very important one, commanding a lot of moral authority worldwide. To deny its importance, to claim that it can be successfully occupied even by an incompetent, is to deny the importance of moral teaching.

Will this make future Popes more likely to be second-guessed? Yes, perhaps. But that's a good thing. Again: this is an important job. If it's being done poorly, as it sometimes is, somebody should say something. Pretending that everything's fine when it isn't is a recipe for turning a popular, mainstream sect into a sparsely-followed, wacky one.

Tirian wrote:this kills even the illusion that you are Heaven's representative on Earth if the Father can't even keep you sufficiently healthy to keep up appearances.
I'm sure the Pope would have liked to remain sufficiently healthy to keep up appearances, but that wasn't necessarily one of his options. His options may have been "resign" and "try to keep up appearances but fail".

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby ConMan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:28 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:To quote a venerable, if inactive, poster here, "He's kicking the habit."

I was wondering if he'd been fired from the canon.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Thesh » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:41 pm UTC

In terms of a successor, I've got my money on 70 year old white guy.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby yurell » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:48 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:In terms of a successor, I've got my money on 70 year old white guy.


I hear you like betting on 'a number' in roulette
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Thesh » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:58 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
Thesh wrote:In terms of a successor, I've got my money on 70 year old white guy.


I hear you like betting on 'a number' in roulette


Well, considering some people seem to be betting on "straight flush" in roulette, I figured I might as well get my money in there.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Djehutynakht » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:34 am UTC

Thesh wrote:In terms of a successor, I've got my money on 70 year old white guy.


I'm also guessing Italian, although they've mentioned that a few African and Latin American cardinals have a decent chance.

That's the one thing about Papal politics. It's somewhat on-the-fly. Because either the Pope dies and everyone has about two-three weeks to scramble everything together, or, just now, the Pope resigns out of the blue and everyone has two-or-three weeks to get their s**t together.

I mean, they generally keep an eye on things, but now they all have to furiously flock to Rome and start politicking.

It's likely that the new Pope will be conservative in Benedict's fashion (this would admittedly be good for the continuity of avoiding inter-Papal conflict between the new guy and Benedict) because Benedict's appointed most of the current cardinals (Out of the 117 eligible to attend conclave, he appointed sixty-something and John Paul fifty-something), however, they are almost certainly going to need a compromise candidate, as the vote has to be two-thirds-plus-one.


So... we'll see in two weeks. Some preferiti will emerge in the upcoming weeks, in the news and among the cardinals.

____________


As for Benedict...

He's going to go hang out in castillo Gandolfo then he's moving back into Vatican City for the rest of his life. So he'll still always be there (although he won't be in conclave to help pick). So the new pope and all the rest of the cardinals and such will still be able to talk to him.... I'm sure he'll attend some of the bigger masses (Easter, Christmas, etc.)... I'm guessing he'll still be called "Pope", just leaving the decisions up to the new guy. He'll probably dress in Papal-casual (for masses I don't know) and... yeah. He'll probably write a lot.

So what will happen remains to be seen. I think he'll just be the old grandfather pope who kind of just sits around and writes, and sometimes attends a big event or gives advice to his junior Pope. It's fitting to his style.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:45 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I don't think having the leader of an organization set a precedent where said leaders are allowed to gracefully step down because of health issues/personal issues can be genuinely described as a 'bad thing'.

Saying that this is a miscalculation because it endangers the image of the Pope as an infallible leader presumes that 1) Catholics consider the Pope an infallible leader and 2) The Church wants Catholics to consider the Pope an infallible leader.


1. As a Catholic, I don't believe that.
2. I don't believe that is the case either. I'm pretty sure canon law states that only when the Pope speaks under "ex cathedra". This has happened only a limited number of times in the Church's 2000 year old history. I don't believe either of the last two Popes have spoken "Ex Cathedra" explicitly. (And mind you, it has to be pretty explict to qualify as Ex Cathedra)

Here's the Wikipedia Entry on papal infallibility, and at least the beginning concurs with what I've been taught at Catholic School.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infa ... infallible

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:
"the Roman Pontiff"
"speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"....)
"he defines"
"that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
"must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)[16]


EDIT: For a more rigorous proof, the Catholic Encyclopedia is perhaps a better reference for this matter than Wikipedia.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB

infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:
[snip snip]


Read from there if you're interested.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby yurell » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:11 am UTC

Yeah, Pope is only (supposedly) infallible when specifically speaking ex cathedra.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Arariel » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:07 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I don't think having the leader of an organization set a precedent where said leaders are allowed to gracefully step down because of health issues/personal issues can be genuinely described as a 'bad thing'.

Saying that this is a miscalculation because it endangers the image of the Pope as an infallible leader presumes that 1) Catholics consider the Pope an infallible leader and 2) The Church wants Catholics to consider the Pope an infallible leader.


1. As a Catholic, I don't believe that.
2. I don't believe that is the case either. I'm pretty sure canon law states that only when the Pope speaks under "ex cathedra". This has happened only a limited number of times in the Church's 2000 year old history. I don't believe either of the last two Popes have spoken "Ex Cathedra" explicitly. (And mind you, it has to be pretty explict to qualify as Ex Cathedra)

The Great Hippo was saying one can only see it as a miscalculation because it endangers his image iff someone makes those presumptions, not because they are actually true.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Tirian » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:24 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I don't think having the leader of an organization set a precedent where said leaders are allowed to gracefully step down because of health issues/personal issues can be genuinely described as a 'bad thing'.

Saying that this is a miscalculation because it endangers the image of the Pope as an infallible leader presumes that 1) Catholics consider the Pope an infallible leader and 2) The Church wants Catholics to consider the Pope an infallible leader.


I suppose I think it's a Catch-22. Were the Roman Catholic Church to decide to get with the times and end papal appointment for life, that would be a rational decision that would defy essentially two thousand years of tradition. On one level, I respect that. On another, if the Roman Catholic Church is going to become that pragmatic and non-mystical, then I have a laundry list of other reforms for them to take on. They should also get with the times and allow women to serve as priests and get the stick out of their asses regarding contraception and homophobia. And if that reform doesn't come from Rome, why shouldn't the cardinals from North America get with the times and break off to form a more progressive Catholic tradition?

So what I sort of mean is that these absurd traditions are killing the Roman Catholic church but the absurd traditions are also keeping the Roman Catholic church alive.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby lutzj » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:So what I sort of mean is that these absurd traditions are killing the Roman Catholic church but the absurd traditions are also keeping the Roman Catholic church alive.


Change in the Church comes slow, even in response to crises like the Reformation. It operates on a scale and timeframe incomparable to most other organizations. Women will be allowed into the clergy eventually, if it needs to happen. That's not much comfort to somebody alive today, but there's something to be said for ensuring that the whole project holds together on into the next millenium.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:27 am UTC

Sytri wrote:Also, just had a thought. What benefits a retired pope? What will he become? Does he go back to being Cardinal Ratzinger? (sp?) Does he get to be called pope like all ex-presidents do? How will it affect the nomination of a new pope when the old one is sitting in the corner judging you all?

I have read that he will become a cardinal only if the next pope nominates him for the position. Which is likely, assuming (Pope Benedict XVI? Cardinal Ratzinger? Mr. Ratzinger?) wants it.

How do we address him after he leaves the papacy? This is a good question.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Ormurinn » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:58 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:How do we address him after he leaves the papacy? This is a good question.


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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:09 am UTC

They're still deciding. I'm guessing it's still going to be "Holy Father" or something of the sort as he still will be the Holy Father.... just not the active one.

Sort of like how we still call ex-Presidents "Mr. President". They're working on it.


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