The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Belial » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:24 am UTC

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:25 am UTC

The preacher formerly known as Pope?

On a less flippant note, this rather dramatic change right after JPII's relatively liberal leadership does suggest the Catholic Church is on at least a bit of a liberal swing, which I'm all for. Not that I ever expect them to be liberal, but there's long ways towards reasonable they can go before they risk that title.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

It's been said that Benedict's elevation was partially to appease the conservatives in the Church, which it did. Even the ultra-conservative breakaway group SSPX is now back in communion with the Church, mainly due to Pope Benedict.

I fully expect a more liberal cardinal to be elevated to replace him. Liberal for the Church, as in: might canonize Dorothy Day, which will still be extremely conservative by the measures of this board.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Ptolom » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Darth

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Krong » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:52 am UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:On a less flippant note, this rather dramatic change right after JPII's relatively liberal leadership does suggest the Catholic Church is on at least a bit of a liberal swing, which I'm all for. Not that I ever expect them to be liberal, but there's long ways towards reasonable they can go before they risk that title.

Heisenberg wrote:It's been said that Benedict's elevation was partially to appease the conservatives in the Church, which it did. Even the ultra-conservative breakaway group SSPX is now back in communion with the Church, mainly due to Pope Benedict.

I fully expect a more liberal cardinal to be elevated to replace him. Liberal for the Church, as in: might canonize Dorothy Day, which will still be extremely conservative by the measures of this board.

As Heisenberg points out, we should be very careful when using terms like "liberal" and "conservative" when describing a Pope's positions.* Those words are confused enough already when we talk about politics between, let's say, the US and the UK. And now we're not even comparing apples and oranges, we're comparing apples and broccoli.

JPII and Benedict XVII share a theology that's a bit conservative. They both shared political views that, depending on the issue and your country, would appear extremely liberal or extremely conservative. JPII was just more of a diplomat, so he has a reputation of being less stodgy and "conservative".

I am curious what a theologically-liberal Pope would be like, though. Sainthood for Day seems like one example (though look at Cardinal Dolan). I'm not sure if progress towards unity with the Orthodox would happen quicker or slower -- at any rate, I think the holdup is on their end (which given history seems fair). I don't see the male-only clergy going away any time soon, since that's an issue of doctrine... but the celibacy thing is an issue of discipline and much more open to change.

The one other thing to keep in mind is that the Pope is much more like a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court than a President. He's supposed to err on the side of precedent (tradition) and unity. That's not to say he shouldn't take stands on issues and such, but a Pope that is extremely divisive among Catholics is doing it wrong.

* Careful as in the opposite of what most news stories you read about this will be :)
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:26 pm UTC

Disclaimer: None of this is confirmed by any major news outlets

Insight into his reasons are coming out

http://itccs.org/

TLDR, he seems to be resigning because a warrant was going to be issued for his arrest for aiding child abuse.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:40 pm UTC

Well that certainly looks like a trustworthy source.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby mike-l » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:01 am UTC

Yeah, hence the disclaimer. It's on a lot of no name blogs, but there's no confirmation from anyone reputable.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Jave D » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:20 am UTC

He will now have more time to construct the Death Star.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby mike-l » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:42 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Disclaimer: None of this is confirmed by any major news outlets

Insight into his reasons are coming out

http://itccs.org/

TLDR, he seems to be resigning because a warrant was going to be issued for his arrest for aiding child abuse.

So this does indeed seem to be an exaggeration, however Reuters is now reporting that the pope will remain in the Vatican in part to avoid prosecution.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Greyhind » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:53 am UTC

I found the part of the article where they said they want to avoid pilgrimages to be more credible. Mostly though, it just appears to be a neat way to tie a bow around his life. Each issue in turn wouldn't be enough to restrict his movements.


In related news, tying up appears to be being done in preparation for the next Pope and whatever position he takes on homosexuality.

[edited to remove link] A gay mass in Soho, London has been shut down. The BBC has an article on it.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:26 pm UTC

We've got a new pope. Apparently. We are no longer popeless. As an ex catholic its pretty hard to give a crap about this.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:31 pm UTC

I don't care any more than to see if I would have made money had I bet.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Роберт » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:35 pm UTC

Greyhind wrote:I found the part of the article where they said they want to avoid pilgrimages to be more credible. Mostly though, it just appears to be a neat way to tie a bow around his life. Each issue in turn wouldn't be enough to restrict his movements.


In related news, tying up appears to be being done in preparation for the next Pope and whatever position he takes on homosexuality.

[edited to remove link] A gay mass in Soho, London has been shut down. The BBC has an article on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21490633
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:35 pm UTC

Woohoo! Early decision. Palm Sunday isn't for another two weeks.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Xeio » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:37 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:I don't care any more than to see if I would have made money had I bet.
Quick, I bet old white guy!

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:42 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Woohoo! Early decision. Palm Sunday isn't for another two weeks.


You make it sound like pope is to palm sunday as groundhog is to winter.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Xeio » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Thesh wrote:I don't care any more than to see if I would have made money had I bet.
Quick, I bet old white guy!
That was easy. Quick, lets have them vote again so I can double down!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby some_dude » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

He may be white but he's non-european so it's still a pretty unconventional choice.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:38 pm UTC

I am heartened that a champion of social justice is the spiritual leader to 1/6th of the world's population. I've only scratched the surface but everything I've seen has said that Cardinal Bergoglio has always been a strong advocate for the poor. Speaking on inequality in Latin America:
"The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers."
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio spoke of the contrast between "poor people who are persecuted for demanding work, and rich people who are applauded for fleeing from justice".

Viva Il Papa!

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Dr. Diaphanous » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:40 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Quick, I bet old white guy!

More like red and black
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Decker » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

So the church has been re-pope-ulated.

I still think it's going to be "Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss."
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Darryl » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:04 am UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I am heartened that a champion of social justice is the spiritual leader to 1/6th of the world's population. I've only scratched the surface but everything I've seen has said that Cardinal Bergoglio has always been a strong advocate for the poor. Speaking on inequality in Latin America:
"The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers."
Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio spoke of the contrast between "poor people who are persecuted for demanding work, and rich people who are applauded for fleeing from justice".

Viva Il Papa!

Still only a social justice champion for straight people, since he also said that adoption by homosexual couples was a form of child discrimination. While speaking politically, not ecclesiastically.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Belial » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:40 am UTC

Also, given that the argentine catholic church collaborated heavily with the Junta, we basically traded nazi pope for fascist pope.

Yay?
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:20 am UTC

I think Francis has the possibility to become a reformer pope. His background seems with him. He immediately took the name of a saint who was famously ordered by god to rebuild the Church, and there's the whole fact that he's more of a pastor than a bureaucrat; and from Argentina no less.

Ah well. He didn't look bad at all out on the balcony. But we shall see. Time will tell.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby yurell » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:54 am UTC

Let's not forget that he was a collaborator with the military regime in the Dirty War, and expelled priests so that they could be tortured by the military.

Edit: Just adding links to Belial's point
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Mambrino » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:01 am UTC

Belial wrote:Also, given that the argentine catholic church collaborated heavily with the Junta, we basically traded nazi pope for fascist pope.

Yay?


I think it's quite exaggerating to call the former pope a Nazi. Wasn't it practically compulsory for boys of certain age to join Hitler-Jugend? And the war ended just a little bit after his 18th birthday.

This current pope, however, seems actually far worse. There's plausible evidence that he was in a position of power in the Argentinan Catholic Chruch and collaborated with a brutal dictatorship (who killed and tortured numerous people, including Catholic priests). Yay indeed.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:18 pm UTC

yurell wrote:Let's not forget that he was a collaborator with the military regime in the Dirty War,

The Guardian article has been corrected. It no longer calls him a collaborator.

The Wikipedia article makes it seem like while he was in charge of some Jesuit priests in Argentina, he told his people not to join the armed rebellion against the Junta, but some did anyway. Because, you know, Jesuits be crazy.

CBS goes into detail on his actual role during that time. TL,DR: He did meet with junta leaders... and talked them into sparing his priests, who they had captured, tortured, and were likely going to kill.
Bergoglio — who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship — told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.

Doesn't sound like he was a big fan of the fascists to me.
Djehutynakht wrote:I think Francis has the possibility to become a reformer pope. His background seems with him.

Really I think this is the best thing you can say about him:
He accused fellow church leaders of hypocrisy and forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby elasto » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:39 am UTC

Decker wrote:I still think it's going to be "Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss."

While he still has pretty conventional views on homosexuality etc., there's a chance it might be an appointment that brings respect back to the position:

The first 48 hours of the pontificate of Pope Francis have given the world a foretaste of what it is going to be like to have a Jesuit priest for the first time in history as leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholic believers. Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions: "No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

It was just one small sign out of many this week that as Massimo Franco, one of Italy's shrewdest political editorial writers, commented in the Corriere Della Sera, "the era of the Pope-King and of the Vatican court is over". You only had to look at the shocked faces of many of the courtiers when they suddenly realised the significance of what had happened and understood that it really was over.

Another moment of truth occurred when Pope Francis broke the seals of the Papal Apartment in the Apostolic Palace to take possession of his new home. Vatican officials genuflected and bowed as Archbishop George Gaenswein, secretary of the now retired Pope Benedict but still master of the papal household, searched for the light switch while the Pope stood motionless for a moment, outlined in the dark, surveying the scene: "There's room for 300 people here," he's reported to have remarked. "I don't need all this space."

The new Pope has given no indication yet of his key choice of future number two, the Vatican secretary of state. Clearly the Italian cardinals and monsignori who have been running the Vatican under Pope Benedict would all like to be confirmed in their jobs (all Vatican senior posts lapse when there is a vacancy of the Holy See). But many will be disappointed. Pope Francis intends to make his senior appointments at his own pace and in his own time, and is expected to make significant changes within weeks in the way the slow-moving Vatican bureaucracy works.

What has fascinated observers of the Vatican scene is that the new Pope has no close personal secretary or aide following him around comparable to George Gaenswein, the personal shadow of former Pope Benedict. Only hours after his election the new Pope slipped out of the Vatican in an unmarked car to pray at a Rome basilica where the founder of his order once prayed. And then he stopped at the hotel for clergy in the centre of Rome where he had been staying before the conclave to pay his bill and pick up his bags. The following day he again left the Vatican, incognito, to visit a sick friend in hospital.

The new pope is a frugal man, a friend of the poor, in the long tradition of another icon of the Catholic Church, whose name he has borrowed, St Francis of Assisi. As bishop he was used to travelling around Buenos Aires on public transport and cooking for himself in a small apartment. He has already told his fellow bishops in Argentina not to waste their money on travelling to Rome for his installation ceremony but to give the money instead to the poor. So be prepared for some further surprises.


As a Cardinal he also washed and kissed the feet of drug addicts and AIDS victims in an Argentinian hospice.

Even if most of us obviously wouldn't agree with many of his doctrines, I think his heart may be in the right place more than most.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:27 am UTC

He certainly seems very pious. But his kind of piety tends to be the zealous kind and zealous religious leaders are not often good for those of us outside the flock. And I think he's probably going to reconsider not having a personal secretary pretty quick, unless the administrative workload of the Pope is much smaller than I could ever realize.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Tirian » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:44 am UTC

He's been the cardinal of Argentina, so I suspect he knows a thing or two about spinning a lot of plates at once.

I'm not Catholic, but I'm inclined to like this guy. The mission of the church could be about more than wagging your finger at gays and single women, and the modern Christian church (of nearly every denomination) would be more relevant if church leaders were more conscious about the real physical and spiritual needs of the world. I'm cautiously optimistic that a Jesuit is going to get that, and oddly concerned that he'll be dead in thirty days like John Paul I.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby elasto » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:46 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:He certainly seems very pious. But his kind of piety tends to be the zealous kind and zealous religious leaders are not often good for those of us outside the flock.

I'm really not so sure about that either. Seems to be a very humble strain of zeal. From another article:

In his own words, Pope Francis comes over as a clever, thoughtful and skilful mixture of social conservative and radical progressive who preaches zero tolerance of pederast priests but whose own behaviour during the terror of Argentina's military juntas remains decidedly blurred.

In his latest book, On Earth and Heaven, the man then known as Jorge Bergoglio, discusses the divine and the mundane with the prominent Jewish rabbi Abraham Skorka in a series of conversations published in 2010. Bergoglio appears as a man with a profound social conscience, expressing admiration of some atheist socialists and professing a genuine belief in interfaith dialogue – to the extent that some radical Catholics accuse him of heresy.

He is critical of those who covered up the paedophile scandal that has done so much damage to the church he now leads: "The idea that celibacy produces paedophiles can be forgotten," he says. "If a priest is a paedophile, he is so before he becomes a priest. But when this happens you must never look away. You cannot be in a position of power and use it to destroy the life of another person."

Bergoglio says he has never had to deal with such a case, but when a bishop asked what he should do, he told him the priest should be sacked and tried, that putting the church's reputation first was a mistake: "I think that is the solution that was once proposed in the United States; of switching them to other parishes," he says. "That is stupid, because the priest continues to carry the problem in his backpack." The only answer to the problem, he adds, is zero tolerance.

The church, he says, has been through worse times. "There have been corrupt periods. There were very difficult periods, but the religion revived itself."

He also recognises that the church must move with the times and be in constant transformation. "If, throughout history, the church has changed so much, I do not see why we should not adapt it to the culture of the [our] time," he says.

But he sticks to Catholic dogma on key issues, writing off gay marriage as "an anthropological reverse"; Abortion is a scientific problem that is separate "from any religious concept": "Preventing the development of a being that already has the genetic code of a human being is not ethical," he says.

Some of his harshest words are for ultra-conservatives who put obedience of church rules above everything else. "There are sectors within the religions that are so prescriptive that they forget the human side," he says. That may explain why, according to a leaked cardinal's diary from the 2005 papal conclave, he allegedly once criticised anti-condom zealots as wanting to "stick the whole world inside a condom".


So, no, he's not going to suddenly reverse lots of traditional Catholic positions, but he comes across as something of the opposite to a ideological zealot.

And I think he's probably going to reconsider not having a personal secretary pretty quick, unless the administrative workload of the Pope is much smaller than I could ever realize.

I'm sure that's true. But, for now, he's making a statement.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby elasto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:00 pm UTC

The Pope has stunned the owners of a Buenos Aires newspaper kiosk, by phoning directly to cancel his order. Luis Del Regno and his son Daniel delivered papers to the former cardinal's residence every weekday.

Daniel said he thought it was a prank when a caller earlier this week introduced himself as "Cardinal Jorge".

Each Sunday, the archbishop of Buenos Aires would come and pick up the paper himself at 05:30 before catching a bus to distribute tea to sick people in the suburb of Lugano, said Luis Del Regno.

When Daniel Del Regno answered the phone on Monday, he could not believe it was the newly-elected Pope, the Catholic News Agency reported.

"'Seriously, it's Jorge Bergoglio, I'm calling you from Rome,'" the Pope had told him.

"I was in shock, I broke down in tears and didn't know what to say," Daniel Del Regno told Argentine daily La Nacion. "He thanked me for delivering the paper all this time and sent best wishes to my family. I asked him if there would ever be the chance to see him here again. He said that for the time being that would be very difficult, but that he would always be with us."

The former archbishop had booked a return ticket to Buenos Aires where he was expecting to lead Easter services next weekend. Instead, as Pope Francis, will celebrate Mass on Holy Thursday in St Peter's Basilica, and will wash the feet of prisoners in a youth detention centre in Rome, continuing a pre-Easter practice he began while archbishop of Buenos Aires.

Luis Del Regno said he had "thousands of stories" about the new Pope, including the fact that he used to collect all the rubber bands that were wrapped around his newspapers: "At the end of the month, he always brought them back to me," said Mr Del Regno. "All 30 of them!"


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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

So, apparently the new Pope doesn't have his head completely up his backside:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/us-pope-abuse-idUSBRE9340DZ20130405
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:25 pm UTC

I'm starting to like this new pope. He's still conservative as fuck, but otherwise he seems a decent human being.

Actually wanting to do the right thing is a nice change from most popes.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:58 pm UTC

I too have been impressed with him so far.

And I don't really expect radical liberalism from a Pope; he represents Catholicism and the Church. I don't have any issue with someone representing and believing in conservatism, so long as they prioritize the human decency part of it all, which he seems to be doing. His stance on homosexuality is exactly what you would expect of his organization. Just like we shouldn't expect PETA to adopt a 'Just kidding, meat is great' attitude, we shouldn't expect the Church to endorse homosexuality.

What we SHOULD expect, is for the Church to say 'Homosexuality is a sin, but God is the final judge, not man, so all y'all haters sit down'. That'd be pretty sweet.
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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Nylonathatep » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What we SHOULD expect, is for the Church to say 'Homosexuality is a sin, but God is the final judge, not man, so all y'all haters sit down'. That'd be pretty sweet.


Well there you have it (or close enough to it anyways):

Pope Francis reached out to gays on Monday, saying he wouldn’t judge priests for their sexual orientation in a remarkably open and wide-ranging news conference as he returned from his first foreign trip.

“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis asked.


http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/07/29 ... y-priests/

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

What we SHOULD expect is the Pope to say 'Free puppies and ice cream for everyone...'

<.<
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... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:33 pm UTC

Wow. He even went out of his way to describe homosexuality as an orientation.
"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."
Hopefully this will shut up the conservatives who still insist it's a choice.

He took a similar tack on the role of women in the church.
On the role of women in the Church, he said: "We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more.

"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no... That door is closed."
Catholic Herald wrote:"Women in the church are more important than bishops and priests," just like "Mary is more important than the apostles."
He wants a greater role for women in the Church, but doesn't want to alter the doctrine... yet.

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Re: The Pope to Leave his post at the end of the month

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

"Masonic" lobbies? The Freemasons lobby the Catholic Church? Or is it that old conspiracy theory about Freemasons trying to push for a New World Order with a side of Fabulous?


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