Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:59 pm UTC

elrooto wrote:
Brace wrote:...When I am finished, I will put on two handguns and two knives...

This frightens me on a visceral level. Why are you bringing multiple weapons to a classroom?

Now we're DEFINITELY getting off-topic. So, Ms. Manning was sentenced.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Azrael » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I didn't see any bullying of the tomboys in my high school.

That's either a positive indicator for your school, or a negative indicator of your observation. Either way, a useless anecdote.

But really, you never heard someone called butch or a dyke?

Brace wrote:Can we stop conflating a medical condition with expression?

I wasn't. I was specifically talking about gender expression. You can tell, because I was using those words.

If he doesn't understand that the outward expression of gender can be mismatched from someone's genitalia (and that can result in negative feedback) he certainly won't understand that someone's inner understanding of gender (i.e. identity) can also conflict.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Brace » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

elrooto wrote:
Brace wrote:...When I am finished, I will put on two handguns and two knives...

This frightens me on a visceral level. Why are you bringing multiple weapons to a classroom?


Just in case.

That wasn't meant to be the focus. The topic has drifted into transsexual = gender stereotype, or the assertion that people get sex changes to conform to gender norms. That's ridiculous, untrue, and unhelpful, so I thought I would use myself as an example of why. Are my actions stereotypically female or aren't they? And if they aren't, why am I still dysphoric in a male body? Why do four different therapists all agree that I need treatment to change said body? Please rectify this contradiction, and preferably in a way that's more disciplined than simply calling me a lunatic and asserting that the contradiction rests in me rather than in you.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:12 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Put yoga or ballet under hobbies/other on your resume as a male and see how well that goes with male interviewers/employers against the men who list traditionally masculine hobbits.

You mean, like, Bullroarer Took?

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Lucrece » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:22 pm UTC

elrooto wrote:
Brace wrote:...When I am finished, I will put on two handguns and two knives...

This frightens me on a visceral level. Why are you bringing multiple weapons to a classroom?



Because unlike some privileged straight white boy, trans and gay people are at much higher rates to suffer violence and will most likely have been victims of violence before. And if you seriously think schools protect LGBT people, you are full of crap.

http://fox59.com/2013/08/20/gay-teen-sa ... z2cc5TB0iB

This kind of crap happens also on colleges all the time as well, and so many of the cases go unresolved because of lack of witnesses turning up or the institutions flat out colluding with bullies to rule themselves out of liability by victim-blaming.

Not that any arrests actually prevent the attacks. The attacks already happened. And at some point violently marginalized minorities stop waiting for bureaucracies to give a shit about their well-being (and suspending both bully and victim if the victim chooses to defend his/her well-being) and take up their own measures. Because they know that the only person who will defend them is themselves.

JudeMorrigan wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Put yoga or ballet under hobbies/other on your resume as a male and see how well that goes with male interviewers/employers against the men who list traditionally masculine hobbits.

You mean, like, Bullroarer Took?


lmao, oops. I'll leave it there, though. I liked having my typo leading me to google something entertaining.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby elrooto » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:27 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:
elrooto wrote:
Brace wrote:...When I am finished, I will put on two handguns and two knives...
This frightens me on a visceral level. Why are you bringing multiple weapons to a classroom?
Because unlike some privileged straight white boy, trans and gay people are at much higher rates to suffer violence and will most likely have been victims of violence before. And if you seriously think schools protect LGBT people, you are full of crap.

This is off topic and I will drop it after this post. I wanted to correct your assertion that I am a straight white boy.
I think some schools protect some LGBT people. I also think bringing four weapons to a university is over-the-top.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I didn't see any bullying of the tomboys in my high school.

That's either a positive indicator for your school, or a negative indicator of your observation. Either way, a useless anecdote.

But really, you never heard someone called butch or a dyke?


The fat gay girl I referred to was called 'butch' or 'bull-dyke' all the time. But she wasn't a tomboy. The fat and/or ugly girls got made fun of all the time, but not the reasonably attractive athletes. The 'least feminine' tomboy was one of the most popular girls at my school, and she did come out as gay a while ago (and got married last year).

I don't know what would've happened if she came out as gay during high school, but I'd imagine anyone giving her trouble over it would've had to deal with quite a large chunk of the school, including her triplet brother.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Azrael » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:34 pm UTC

Are you trying to leverage this anecdote to suggest that people don't get picked on when they act contrary to their gender's stereotype? That instead we only pick on ugly people? Or is it that we accept gender non-conformity if the person is popular and/or attractive?

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

Only that where I was, girls doing 'boy things' didn't get significant trouble. Boys doing 'girl things' though...

Girls can wear skirts or pants but guys only get pants.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:44 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:41 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Only that where I was, I didn't notice girls being made fun of for doing 'boy things'. I'm sure that other parts of the country (and probably most of the world) are a bit harsher.

Of course, boys doing 'girl' things was not nearly as welcomed.

I think we all know that it's generally more acceptable in our culture for women to be "tomboyish" than for men to be "girly". Not sure what that has to do with Ms. Manning.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Angua » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:42 pm UTC

Girls quite often get away with doing 'boy' things. This is often attributed to the fact that a woman emulating a man is in a way 'bettering' herself, whereas for a man doing women's stuff is beneath them.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

Wikipedia is up-to-date. That's awesome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning (redirected from "Bradley Manning")
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:01 pm UTC

I was lucky as a kid; I didn't have a very easy time making friends (still don't, and it's even harder now), so most of my friends were actually my sister's friends (my sister and I got along well, and we hung out together most of the time), and they played some stereotypically "girly" games and such. So I ended up playing with dolls and some of those terribly stereotypical "girly girl" board games they made in the late 80's/early 90's (behind the stereotypical nature of some of those games was an interesting strategic focus). It was fun. They were friends. It was just "kids hanging out". I was made fun of for it a little bit, but not too much, partly because the people who made fun of me for it quickly figured out that it didn't bother me. And I never once had to question my "masculinity", because I knew who I was and how I felt. I can't imagine what it would be like to not know who you are, or worse yet to know exactly who you are and be told that you're wrong. No; I'm with Red Hal on this - the easy choice is to identify people as they wish to be identified. If I were to come across Ms. Manning before this recent news, I would have referred to her as "him". Once I was informed that Manning identified as female, make the switch. It's easy. A lot easier for me than Ms. Manning. IMO, anything else is privilege + ignorance.

Can we now get back to the topic at hand? I think the best option for Obama, if he were to pardon Manning, would be to do so on the way out in 2017. He would get to say both that she served a term in prison for the crime for which she was convicted and that, as others have said, since the chance of recidivism is so low, that a longer sentence does not serve the interests of justice.

Edit: Haha! I am crushing your thread! *pinches index finger and thumb together*

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Zamfir » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:39 am UTC


Can we now get back to the topic at hand?


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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:I think the best option for Obama, if he were to pardon Manning, would be to do so on the way out in 2017. He would get to say both that she served a term in prison for the crime for which she was convicted and that, as others have said, since the chance of recidivism is so low, that a longer sentence does not serve the interests of justice.

Yeah, that'd be great. Not likely. Look at how that White House has gotten all bent out of shape over Russia and Snowden. Do you really feel President Obama appreciates whistleblowers? I'd be willing to bet money that he doesn't pardon Chelsea.
Edit:
Zamfir wrote: Yes We Can

Hah! I only got the reference to the Obama campaign after I posted. :0
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Lucrece » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:48 pm UTC

The "Manning debacle"... I did not ever want to give this person any of my time...
Too many media requests have poured in, so here is what I have to say:

What you wear, what color you are, your religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity has no basis on whether you are a CRIMINAL or NOT.
For this person, whether male or female to use gender identity to act "BADLY" is a slap in the face to me and everyone who does not fit the "Binary Gender Norm." It is not an excuse for anything illegal or unjust.

This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally. There is no excuse.
Another problem I have is the EGO that manning had that he would take it upon himself to make a decision to release documents based on personal assumptions, nearly no experience, and without the whole picture. Some say hero? some say traitor? I just say "misguided, egotistical Liar and thief" which can be applied to both hero or traitor depending on a few factors.

Let me pose a scenario....
LEVANWORTH-very tough place with a lot of Marines and others who defended AMERICA and are spending a year or two there for mistakes and bad conduct. Minor sentences, but still loyal to American interest.
GENERAL Prison population: Tough place to be in any prison.
MEDIA: Manning is know to every person in the prison.
SOLITARY: option for Manning to stay alive, but very lonely and its punishment.
TRANSGENDER: Most prisons have special accommodations to ensure safety for that person.
OUTCOME: Manning shows one photo or a few "halloween" photos or him and some of his friends dabbled? These photos are released and a story is unfolded....He is Chelsea and protected in special accommodations.
He will not be in general population where his life expectancy would be about a year tops....He is now using something AGAIN for his own gain.

THE BIGGEST problem I have with the whole thing about Chelsea is that as a Transgender person and as an upstanding citizen and knowing many other transgender people who are beacons of righteousness AND that ALL Americans May become FREE. WE are right at a point in HISTORY were many people are beginning to understand who we are as Transgender, DIVERSE, and that we are just like everyone else...WE ARE ONE....now manning just dirtied the hope of a truly FREE America.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....
Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream.


From former navy seal now transgender icon for trans rights in the military.

It frightens me that she knows you could be killed in prison within a year, especially a military prison for being a "traitor" and seems totally OK with it. In fact, more outraged that Manning would be manipulating a story to get accommodation to dodge this threat.

Seriously? Because if any group should be barred from ever delivering "justice", it's criminals. It's despicable how some murderers in prison deem themselves righteous and go looking for sex offenders to beat up/kill for "justice" without noticing that they are filth not fit to be in a position to judge and execute.

We need to stop this cult of loyalty at all costs in the military because that's how we've gotten all these rape cases shut down/dismissed and all the war crimes shoved under the rug, because apparently telling on your own is a greater crime than the actual crimes they are committing.

Bradley Manning may have been negligent in releasing unredacted documents, but I simply don't get the "go through the established channels for whistleblowing". The whole point of whistleblowing is that the established channels are compromised and so whistleblowing requires extreme measures.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

Sex offenders, especially pedophiles, tend to be smaller than your average inmate. I don't have so much faith in prisoners to believe they target the 'chesters' solely out of a sense of justice.



Another thing that needs to stop is people assuming that just because someone was in the military, they are an honest paragon of American virtue (tm). At the same time, employers shouldn't assume that every soldier is a giant ball of PTSD ready to go Rambo at a moment's notice, but that's a seperate issue. The military is made up of jobs. Lots and lots of jobs. Mechanic, cooks, IT technicians, plumbers, accountants, auditors, bartenders, etc etc. For every guy in the field, there are seven in support.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby addams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:37 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
elrooto wrote:
Brace wrote:...When I am finished, I will put on two handguns and two knives...

This frightens me on a visceral level. Why are you bringing multiple weapons to a classroom?

Now we're DEFINITELY getting off-topic. So, Ms. Manning was sentenced.

ok. Wild Imagination Time!

Why? Because Children; We Are Good At It!
Jump On. We are going into the Land inside your Mind.
Inside this Land, you are The Hero.

The Hero of this story is a Female.
A Real one. From birth.

Or; He could be a Man that wishes he were a woman.
Or; A woman that wishes she were a man?
(does it matter?)

Is it a Hero? What is a Hero?
We have Huge Imagination.

Let's Make it Brent! I knew a Real Guy.
A Fucking Hero in my book.

He was, about, my size. A little Bigger.
He was Man Strong.
That is what happens to the Human body under the influence of Male Hormone; and Some of the weird shit men will do.
It is in The Doing that his body was Sculpted.

What did he do? Before I met him or While I knew him?

Pretend you are Brent. Now; Pretend you are Brent in Mr. Manning's shoes.
Not Now! When This Whole Fucked Up Thing Started!

How old was Mr. Manning when this began?
What was Brent like when he was (?) 23? 24? 26?
Twenty-five it is.

Brent was in The Army. Poor Boy. He got Drafted.
Then, While he was in the Army he went to Vietnam.

The Peace Movement expressed Its Self, Very Where He Did Go.
Did he wear a uniform? Sure did. I bet he looked cute as a bugs ear.

What would Brent have done? Well?

If transported from Fixing Shit in The Wilds while people were hunting him, Kind'a Sort'a.;
To a sterile room in an Early 21 Century building with a bunch of Screens.

It might take Brent a while to figure out where he was.
So; We will, just, put Brent's soul/mind part into that room and leave Mr. Mannings technical knowledge.

O. K. All set up.
Before all the Secret communications with Mr. Manning and The New York Times and (shrug) Other people.

That day; The Day Mr. Manning was looking a screen and saw something.
Remember; Only Mr. Manning's technical knowledge set is in place.
None of his prejudices. None of his Hurt Feeling. Nothing.

Fear? Would Brent know to be afraid?
Would that come with the Technical Knowledge?

Brint's technical knowledge carried some fear stuff.
I know it did. I would say, "Brent! Hey, Brent! Why are we doing This?"

He sometimes didn't say much because he was busy.
Sometimes he said, "It's Too Dangerous Not To."

I liked Brent. He knew stuff.
Imagine Brent sitting there and he gets both the visuals and the auto from a Gleefull Expidition to Hunt a Fucking Humans!
Hunt them All!
Hunting. Hunting. With a Helocoper we go Hunting. (I have a Child's Sing Song voice I use for that little piece of information.)

How do you see that sort of thing?
It's A Job! Some jobs are done Joyfully!

There were a few other little tidbits.
Nothing Much. What would Brent do?

I think I knew The Man. He was Far From Perfect.

He would have Dumped that Mother Fucker into evey News Agency and Human Rights Watch site on The Planet.
He would not have stayed up all night Planing.

Brent. What a guy.
He would have plead Stupid.

What? Like the Fonzei. Or; One of those, Sweat Hogs from Mr. Carter and the High School Poets. What?
What? button? That button?

What was I doing? I was Surfing The Net, Sir.
There are many, many things I gott'a know to do my job and I am having such a hard time figuring out what Those Things Are.

Sir; I may have been Promoted above my Station.
Please, Give me an Easier Job, Sir.

No. That is not what Brent would say.
That is what I would say.

What would Brent say? That Bad Boy Would Be Running.
The gears in his head would be Smokin'.

In this little day dream Mr. Manning's body and technical Knowledge are animated by Brent.
Bent and Mr. Mannings body get to keep Brent's technical Knowledge.

Poor our Hero. What would Brent have done?
He would have been Going for a Walk.

Brent was a charming son-of-a-gun.
He would have been making friends in Transport.

What would Your Hero Do? What would you do?

Really? You would have become Immune?
You? Of course, You would be Numb.

You are The.... Wait For It............The INTERNET PEOPLE! ahhhhhh! (Kermit Runs Around In Circles!)
No. No. No. You are The Internet People.

You people like that shit. That is Entertainment.
You would have been making copies of the really gory stuff to Boot Leg, Back Home.

See? Who are You?
The Hero or a Guy that knows a good thing when ya' see it?

Typing this made me miss Brent and Ellen.
He did not do a Wild Thing in Real Life.

He did not push a button. He fixed shit.
Everywhere he went. He fixed shit.

He did a lot more than fix shit in his life.
We were able to relax and have fun because everything Worked Right.

Rebellious? Us? Hardly.
Hobbies of a Rebellious Nature?

Well; Brent would get Moody, sometimes.
Don't we all? The way I heard it. oppps

It wasn't Brent. It was Ellen!
His Soul Mate. She was as much a part of him as his left leg was.

She got Moody and they had to go find a Statue of The Virgin de Guataluppe.
Then they had to take It. This big ole' heavy thing and walk Way The Fuck out into some kind of a Desert.

The weird things People will Do!
That was weird. How did I get involved?

They told me about the statue.
I wanted to see it.

It was a pretty long walk in.
We had a grand time.

It was rebellious. I thought it was The Right Thing To Do.
I liked those people. Did you?

Maybe, Bradley Manning has to be both the girl and the guy.
He has to get Moody. He does not have a Soul Mate to do it for him.
He has to be Strong. Because there is No One to Lean On.
He has to be a Girl. How often does he see a Mirror.

In jails the mirrors or often not very good or nonexistent.
I don't know. I wish that Young Man well.

If Brent had to make that choice, Ellen would have not met him.
If Ellen did not meet him, then I would have not met him.

If I did not meet him, my internal would would not have a Beautiful Young Man with that wild surfer blonde hair,
Apollo, friends with Poseidon, God of the Sea.

Now; Your let your immagination Rest on the idea of You.

Yes. You with all you Knowledge and Technical Skills.
Think about your self for a Change of Pace.

What would you do? You.
What do you do?

What Heroic thing will you do Today?
oh, Fuck. It can't be That Hard.

You must have been a Hero Today.
When you did what? What did you do, today?

Hey! I have been hearing on the Street and In the Cafes and One Man Came in Person to my Quarters to tell me;
The US is teetering on the brink of a Civil War. I talk to 3D persons that accept it the way I accept Rain.

If you are an American your chance to be a Real Live Flesh and Blood Hero is On The Horizon!
Are you excited? What if? What if your chance to be a Hero comes and goes and Nothing Happens?

FOX News is not more News than NBC/CBS/RUTERS.
Who the heck is Ruters? I wish Brent were here.

That man Knew stuff. I trusted him with my life and felt Good about it.
Dying with people like Brent and Ellen is better than living with Assholes.

What effect will Mr. Manning's treatment have on Other Enlisted Men and Women?
It is hard to fucking tell. Some people are Rebellious By Nature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i6OrOZwtmA
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:45 pm UTC

addams wrote:You people like that shit. That is Entertainment.
You would have been making copies of the really gory stuff to Boot Leg, Back Home.

Not me. I haven't even watched collateral murder.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Enuja » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:22 pm UTC

Beltayn wrote:By and large, I think what most people mean when they talk about gender is mostly hogwash, because its predicated on definitions that are almost entirely social constructs. So there is really little point in talking about what gender people "feel" they are. What does that even mean? Mostly its just something we are making up arbitrarily.
Language is socially constructed. Being a "nerd" is socially constructed. Having a vocation or a job is socially constructed. Religion is socially constructed. And, yes, "gender" is socially constructed. Our framework of experience and perception is socially constructed. Just because something is socially constructed does not make it trivial or mutable. We humans are very adaptable and teachable, but much of that learning happens early on, and is difficult to impossible to change later. Socially constructed ideas (all of them: that things fall is not socially constructed, but our conception of gravity is) are important.

Gender identity is different from both genitals and gender roles and expectation. I actually think it's interesting to argue about the nature of gender identity, but I understand it to be a very much trans-negative pasttime, so I'm very careful to do it only with the active consent of all parties involved in the discussion. This is a thread about a real person, who did an important thing (whistle blowing), who is now in jail, and what do you want to talk about? Your personal opinion about their gender identity. Come on, man, it's not your business. I do want to use public knowledge of trans people as teachable moments, but try not to be an asshole in the meantime, OK? Chelsea Manning is a real person. You're talking about a real person, with opinions and emotions and experiences. And you're really looking like an asshole.

If you can deal with bad music in the intro and transitions, the Transgender Basics video on this page is quite good. If not, the page itself also gives a reasonable introduction, although it's not nearly as detailed and helpful as the video. Please learn about this stuff instead of presenting yourself as an asshole (a hopefully mutable socially constructed category that is nonetheless very important).

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Woopate » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:39 am UTC

I'm annoyed by that article posted above which implies this transgender announcement is a stunt. And at news networks that are pretending like this is a new/recent development, so that people read into it like it's a publicity stunt. It has been a long, long time (in internet years) since the Lamo IRC logs were leaked and Chelsea's nature was revealed.

I somewhat expected this to happen(the way she talked in the IRC logs made it pretty clear that time would increase the desire to transition). I am willing to bet that she announced after the trial simply to avoid problems before her sentencing, but decided some time ago.

The most frustrating part is people who have been calling the announcement itself a betrayal. As though she was a champion of freedom before the announcement, but a traitor after. Less frustrating and more saddening are those who call her crazy then attribute the actions of the leak to her insanity.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby addams » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:35 am UTC

Роберт wrote:
addams wrote:You people like that shit. That is Entertainment.
You would have been making copies of the really gory stuff to Boot Leg, Back Home.

Not me. I haven't even watched collateral murder.

oh. Thank you for reminding me.
We are not all the same.

Even American internet people are not all the same.
Thank you for the gentle reminder.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Diadem
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Diadem » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:59 am UTC

Woopate wrote:I'm annoyed by that article posted above which implies this transgender announcement is a stunt. And at news networks that are pretending like this is a new/recent development, so that people read into it like it's a publicity stunt. It has been a long, long time (in internet years) since the Lamo IRC logs were leaked and Chelsea's nature was revealed.

Was this reported on in any way before though? Because for me literally the first time I heard about this was when someone here in this topic corrected me about Chelsea's name and gender, a few days ago. I haven't been following the case that closely*, but I'm still surprised I heard nothing at all about it before.

Lucrece wrote:Bradley Manning may have been negligent in releasing unredacted documents, but I simply don't get the "go through the established channels for whistleblowing". The whole point of whistleblowing is that the established channels are compromised and so whistleblowing requires extreme measures.

Entirely agreed. This argument is in fact so stupid that I tend to assume that everybody who makes it is making it with malicious intent. Even the most cursory glance should reveal that the official channels are broken. The head of the CIA can lie to congress about domestic spying, get caught, and still get away with it. The president himself is on record as not given a flying fuck about anybody's rights. The very idea of filing an official complaint is ludicrous. At best you get ignored. More likely your report gets ignored while you get your clearance revoked, meaning you've blown your chance to reveal the information.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby zombie_monkey » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:48 am UTC

I remember reading about her possibly being bullied in the military for being transgender a long time ago. I sort of assumed everyone who followed the case closely knew about it, although I also asssumed most people who wanted to support her but were prejudiced against trans* people would rather not talk about it.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:51 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Woopate wrote:I'm annoyed by that article posted above which implies this transgender announcement is a stunt. And at news networks that are pretending like this is a new/recent development, so that people read into it like it's a publicity stunt. It has been a long, long time (in internet years) since the Lamo IRC logs were leaked and Chelsea's nature was revealed.

Was this reported on in any way before though? Because for me literally the first time I heard about this was when someone here in this topic corrected me about Chelsea's name and gender, a few days ago. I haven't been following the case that closely*, but I'm still surprised I heard nothing at all about it before.


It didn't really get any coverage in the mainstream news that I know of. I remember seeing it a while back through a trans blog someone linked to on facebook. IIRC it was only really known in the trans* community (and their friends and allies) and they weren't too keen on spreading it far and wide for multiple reasons (outing someone is a really shitty thing to do and also, pragmatically, it would probably have biased the public against her even more).
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Woopate » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:01 pm UTC

It wasn't widely covered, to be sure. Which surprises me. I thought it had been until this event happenned and everyone was surprised. I have been following the Manning stuff closer than most I suppose, but wouldn't say I obsessed over it or anything. I would have thought that there were more people out there actively trying to condemn Manning who would have used the information as a character assassination, sort of like what is happening right now when people say she did it because she was "crazy" rather than out of goodwill.

Though that does not exactly fit the "aiding the enemy" narrative.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:It wasn't widely covered, to be sure. Which surprises me. I thought it had been until this event happenned and everyone was surprised. I have been following the Manning stuff closer than most I suppose, but wouldn't say I obsessed over it or anything. I would have thought that there were more people out there actively trying to condemn Manning who would have used the information as a character assassination, sort of like what is happening right now when people say she did it because she was "crazy" rather than out of goodwill.

Though that does not exactly fit the "aiding the enemy" narrative.

Well, she was acquitted of that charge already.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Woopate » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:00 am UTC

yeah, I'm talking about the past. I am not presently surprised that there is no discourse about Chelsea's transition, as there obviously is discourse. Before she announced this though there was little use of it as a means to discredit her. While encouraging, it was strange.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby addams » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:50 am UTC

by WibblyWobbly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:01 pm UTC
Can we now get back to the topic at hand? I think the best option for Obama, if he were to pardon Manning, would be to do so on the way out in 2017. He would get to say both that she served a term in prison for the crime for which she was convicted and that, as others have said, since the chance of recidivism is so low, that a longer sentence does not serve the interests of justice.

This does make sense.
Is there one thing that can be done to increase the likelihood?

I am fully in favor of this young person being released as soon as possible.
I think you are correct. The chances of a repeat crime are very low.

This person may do other embarrassing stuff.
We can almost count on it. That is what people do.
I am good with that. You?
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:28 pm UTC

And wikipedia changed it back to Bradley Manning now that mainstream news sources are calling her Chelsea. Great. Reminds me of Star Trek: Into Darkness.
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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:31 pm UTC

Looking at the talk page, seems to be subject of an edit war. The pronouns in the article all correctly refer to Manning as "she".

[edit]If you check the talk page on the article Chelsea Manning, you get the decision from Wikipedia administrators. Spoiled for brevity:

Spoiler:
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.

The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:

The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.

This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.

This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


[edit]Fixed tags.
Last edited by LaserGuy on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to lesser charges...

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:35 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Looking at the talk page, seems to be subject of an edit war. The pronouns in the article all correctly refer to Manning as "she".

That's what I meant by "reminds me of ~*~StAr TrEk InTo DaRkNeSs~*~".
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.


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