Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Telchar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:12 am UTC

hawkinsssable wrote:
Telchar wrote:You pointed out a similarity between what these activists did and what Oskar Schindler did. That's textbook comparison.


No?


Incidentally, we do typically think it's okay for people to operate outside official institutions when those institutions are corrupt, not reformable, and/or outside of our power to change - by, say, sheltering Jews or gypsies or homosexuals or whatever, interfering with a massive state-organised experiment in social engineering.


But I guess he's like Beetlejuice. He's only real if you say his name but not if you describe his actions in detail and note similarities. You know....comparing....

It would be like me saying "Posting in a thread about trashing labs and complaining about journalistic integrity is like complaining about the Jews after getting pulled over for a DUI." That's comparing you to Mel Gibson. Even though I don't mention your name, or his, it's still a comparison.

If you want to say that said activists did something wrong, you've got to go ahead and point out that what they did was wrong, not just say that it's not people's place to object to the actions of an institution they aren't officially affiliated with.


I very clearly stated what I thought they did wrong, none of which involved becoming lab techs.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:22 am UTC

Telchar, what was unreasonable about the comparison to Oskar Schindler? Is it not true that "we ... typically think it's okay for people to operate outside official institutions when those institutions are corrupt, not reformable, and/or outside of our power to change"? And is resistance to the Holocaust not a good example of that?
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby hawkinsssable » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:45 am UTC

Telchar wrote:
hawkinsssable wrote:
Telchar wrote:You pointed out a similarity between what these activists did and what Oskar Schindler did. That's textbook comparison.


No?


Incidentally, we do typically think it's okay for people to operate outside official institutions when those institutions are corrupt, not reformable, and/or outside of our power to change - by, say, sheltering Jews or gypsies or homosexuals or whatever, interfering with a massive state-organised experiment in social engineering.


But I guess he's like Beetlejuice. He's only real if you say his name but not if you describe his actions in detail and note similarities. You know....comparing....

It would be like me saying "Posting in a thread about trashing labs and complaining about journalistic integrity is like complaining about the Jews after getting pulled over for a DUI." That's comparing you to Mel Gibson. Even though I don't mention your name, or his, it's still a comparison.


"Liberating animals from labs is like rescuing Jews or gypsies or homosexuals" is a comparison.

ARGUMENT 1: "the only legitimate response available to people who object to the actions of a particular institution is to join said institution and create incremental change from within" is an agument
ARGUMENT 2: "The logic several posters in this thread are using is inconsistent with principles we rightly care about" is an a counter-argument.
ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE: "Incidentally, we do typically think it's okay for people to operate outside official institutions when those institutions are corrupt, not reformable, and/or outside of our power to change - by, say, sheltering Jews or gypsies or homosexuals or whatever, interfering with a massive state-organised experiment in social engineering." is an illustration of argument 2, intended to show the implausibility of argument 1. It does not compare animal rights activists with Schindler or other Germans who sheltered potential victims of the Holocaust in any morally relevant sense - something I thought was pretty obvious thanks to the absurdity of the comparison, and made even clearer by not mentioning any particular heroic characters.


Here's an even more straightforward example.

Argument 1: "I'm not going to vote for Romney, because my uncle is an idiot, and he's voting for Romney; obviously Romney is the wrong choice."
Argument 2: "This is a silly argument, based on using guilty by association; you should provide better reasons for not voting for Romney."
Illustration of argument 2: "Using the same logic, you could say that "Hitler liked dogs. Therefore dogs are bad."

I compared animal liberationists to Schindler in the same way ^that guy compared the uncle to Hitler, or Romney to a dog.

Telchar wrote:
If you want to say that said activists did something wrong, you've got to go ahead and point out that what they did was wrong, not just say that it's not people's place to object to the actions of an institution they aren't officially affiliated with.


I very clearly stated what I thought they did wrong, none of which involved becoming lab techs.

That's what I wanted? Good job?
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:43 am UTC

hawkinsssable wrote:
Telchar wrote:You pointed out a similarity between what these activists did and what Oskar Schindler did. That's textbook comparison.


No?

I pointed out that a certain line of argument ("the only legitimate response available to people who object to the actions of a particular institution is to join said institution and create incremental change from within") has some pretty fucked implications. I pointedly didn't mention Schindler or anybody who took equivalent actions, because that might imply comparison. So far as I know, research labs don't pop in to your house and cart off all the mice they can find in your larder.

If you want to say that said activists did something wrong, you've got to go ahead and point out that what they did was wrong, not just say that it's not people's place to object to the actions of an institution they aren't officially affiliated with.


Yeah, I think plenty of people have already pointed out what they did that was wrong.

Civil disobedience can indeed be a means of resistance to an evil government...but it should be a last resort. Saying "I disagree with parking tickets, so I'm just not going to pay mine" is going to be looked at with skepticism, right? Imagine if all of us who disagreed with our government on an issue took to civil disobedience over it. Society would be a GD mess. All of us would be worse off for it. Plenty of legal means exist to have their grievances heard, or to persuade others. This is how democracy works. You fight in the arena of public opinion, in politics, in the media, in the courts. Civilization works BECAUSE we don't settle our differences by simply doing whatever we want in RL.

Also, it'd be pretty fucked up for Schindler to have reacted to the Nazis by killing all the jews in their labor camps.

omgryebread wrote:They shouldn't have quotes from the protesters. Good on the media for not getting them. Don't give them a platform for their cause. If they want to talk about how animal testing is horrible, great, do that in the appropriate venues. Giving them a quote in the article reinforces the idea that the best way to promote a cause is violence.


Damned right. The media has a responsibility for what they promote. Good on them for not ducking it under the guise of neutrality.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:18 pm UTC

hawkinsssable wrote:Endlessly bringing up the benefits a very few number of animal trials have brought about misses the point.* Essentially, the vast bulk of animal experimentation causes significant pain without even being intended to produce results of real significance. If this was the case at this particular lab, the worst the protestors did was inconvenience some researchers and students. Was this the case? I have no idea; if it wasn't, the point is moot. Still, it seems to me that you might want to figure this out before smugly thrusting some bunny in an activists' face and shouting "IS THIS BUNNY WORTH LESS TO YOU THAN HUMAN LIVES, YOU MONSTER?!"
I cannot begin to describe how much I disagree with this entire paragraph. Wait, yes I can.

Firstly, 'very few number of animal trials'? Secondly 'vast bulk of animal experimentation causes significant pain'? Thirdly 'without even being intended to produce results of real significance'? Fourthly 'worst the protestors did was inconvenience some researchers and students'? Fifthly, Yes, we are thrusting a bunny in an activists face and shouting that the bunny is worth less than human lives, because the activist has done the exact opposite, but for some reason, you're defending their actions while reprimanding ours.

So lets address those five points;
1 ) All animal experimentation goes through a review board. There are certainly examples of organizationis failing to meet those standards, but they are the outliers. If you wanted to make a factual statement, it should have read 'very few animal trials cause significant amounts of pain'.

2 ) Review board; pain minimized, animals sacrificed humanely. The more you post the more I'm under the impression you get all your information from PETA.

3 ) You seem to be under the impression that people go into science because experimenting on animals is fun. You are wrong. The claim that the vast bulk of experimentation is conducted with no intent to produce results of significance is a statement as ludicriously fallacious as the claim that 'most business owners enjoy lighting their inventory on fire'. Again, all animal research goes through a review board, and any research project that isn't supported by strong logic and previous findings isn't going to be approved for animal testing.

4 ) Wrong; the worst the protestors did was destroy promising data that may have led new therapies. This represents more than just a few years of inconveniencing some people; ever see the movie 'Medicine Man'? We have no way of knowing (and now, never will!) if one of those mice had a mutation that could have unlocked part of the mystery of some human neurological disorder, and it is entirely possible that such a mutation won't pop up again when the lines are restored. I'm painting the worst case scenario for the data lost of course; best case scenario, the actions of the protestors simply set back the labs and projects by 2-3 years. Do you know how long typical funding grants are? Do you think the researchers will have an easy time convincing the Italian government and other investors to fund their research, when they effectively show zero progress for a multiple year stretch? Best case scenario it is quite possible that these activists ruined a number of scientists careers.

5 ) The problem with these activists is that they have thrust their morality in the livelihoods of others, and you're here getting bent out of shape because we have the audacity to condemn the activists for their actions. So, yes, what I would like to do is thrust that bunny in their face and demand to know why they think it's worth more than a human life; it is quite evident that they haven't thought about it very carefully.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Zamfir » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:23 pm UTC


For the rest of the thread: i ask everyone to stay away from holocaust comparisons, analogies or illustrations. They won't help the conversation one iotta.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:24 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:it is quite evident that [these activists] haven't thought about it very carefully.
How is that evident? Aside from their reaching different conclusions than you have.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby natraj » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:45 pm UTC

Because obviously the only correct value system is his value system.

For someone who genuinely believes killing animals is tantamount to murder and that this is going on on an enormously wide scale, it is not actually hard to see why taking drastic action is sometimes a thing that they feel is warranted (also not hard to see why they feel like it IS a last resort; it's not like this hasn't been going on for a really long time. And not like campaigns against it haven't been going on for a really long time.)

Before you start with the strawmen, I'm not saying that what they did was correct or legal or should be legal. Just that sometimes when horrific things go on, people do horrific things to interfere with it. (And no, Izawwlgood, I don't think regulations about more "humane" animal testing makes it actually in any way humane; it is still slaughter on a widespread scale. And NO, Izawwlgood, I also don't think that this was the right way for them to go about it. But having a different ethical system than you does not mean that people have not thought about it.)
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

natraj wrote:Because obviously the only correct value system is his value system.
But I'm supposed to respect a value system that espouses breaking and entering, destruction of property, potentially ruining some scientists careers, and setting back scientific progress. Gotcha; that is a 'value system' I will simply have to be on board with.

natraj wrote:For someone who genuinely believes killing animals is tantamount to murder and that this is going on on an enormously wide scale, it is not actually hard to see why taking drastic action is sometimes a thing that they feel is warranted
I didn't say it was hard to understand their motivations, nor even that their motivations would not lead to this action. I think their motivations are idiotic, and their actions juvenile and ineffective at conveying/supporting their motivations/message. EDIT: And ignorant! Don't forget ignorant!

Princess Marzipan wrote:But having a different ethical system than you does not mean that people have not thought about it
We already went over this; they released animals into the wild that will certainly die there, and quickly. Probably painfully. Certainly 'uselessly'.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:18 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
natraj wrote:But having a different ethical system than you does not mean that people have not thought about it
We already went over this; they released animals into the wild that will certainly die there, and quickly. Probably painfully. Certainly 'uselessly'.
Fixed the quote misattribution.

You're strawmanning their goal into being saving the pwecious widdle animoos' wives. If their goal was to simply put the research animals beyond the reach of the researchers, then their actions weren't as poorly thought out.

As hawkinsssable pointsss out, we don't know anything about the their goals or motivations in this specific attack. Regardless of the merits of the press reporting on those, they have not done so, and so any argument you might about those goals or motivations is pure straw.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:25 pm UTC

Actually, I need to step back and apologize a moment;
Izawwlgood wrote:I didn't say it was hard to understand their motivations, nor even that their motivations would not lead to this action. I think their motivations are idiotic, and their actions juvenile and ineffective at conveying/supporting their motivations/message. EDIT: And ignorant! Don't forget ignorant!
This was out of line and unhelpful. The motivation of animal welfare is an important one I stand by and support, and caring about the ethical treatment of animals is in and of itself something I hold fairly essential to the research that is conducted with their lives.

Princess Marzipan wrote:Fixed the quote misattribution.
The statement I made in that quote misattribution was actually meant for your remark of;
Princess Marzipan wrote:How is that evident? Aside from their reaching different conclusions than you have.
I must have misclicked somewhere.

Princess Marzipan wrote:You're strawmanning their goal into being saving the pwecious widdle animoos' wives. If their goal was to simply put the research animals beyond the reach of the researchers, then their actions weren't as poorly thought out.As hawkinsssable pointsss out, we don't know anything about the their goals or motivations in this specific attack. Regardless of the merits of the press reporting on those, they have not done so, and so any argument you might about those goals or motivations is pure straw.

I'm pretty sure a statement was released by the Green Pastures group to the effect of fighting against animal testing. If you look at their facebook page, it's got a bunch of pictures of them trashing labs and protesting against animal testing. I don't see how my assuming they're trying to save the animals is any different than you assuming they're simply trying to ratchet up the cost for researchers.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:32 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'm pretty sure a statement was released by the Green Pastures group to the effect of fighting against animal testing. If you look at their facebook page, it's got a bunch of pictures of them trashing labs and protesting against animal testing. I don't see how my assuming they're trying to save the animals is any different than you assuming they're simply trying to ratchet up the cost for researchers.
Those assumptions aren't different, except that I'm not actually making mine. I'm pointing out an alternative to yours, to illustrate that yours isn't the ONLY possibility.

You're the one making claims based on the truth of those assumptions - which is folly. (And the fact that they're against animal testing STILL doesn't mean the goal of *this action* was to *save lives*. I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm just saying you can't assume it was and use that assumption as the basis for calling the group ignorant or stupid.)
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:34 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So, yes, what I would like to do is thrust that bunny in their face and demand to know why they think it's worth more than a human life;

I doubt that they think that. You speak as if the only way to do ethics is to look at an action, list all its consequences, list all the consequences of omitting it, and then decide which outcome you value more. I don't mean that you think this is the right way; I mean you are attributing views to animal rights activists as if they couldn't conceivably think in any other way. But most people do think of things differently, at least some of the time. Consider, for example, the famous thought experiment in which you are given the choice to push a fat man into the path of a moving train so that the train won't hit five other people. Many people (most, in fact) think that it would be wrong to push the man in front of the train. Let's leave aside the question of whether they're right; what interests me here is the fact that people think this way at all. Is it right to say that these people think the fat man is worth more than the five people already on the track? That strikes me as absurd. Clearly our culture is not one that elevates fat people others, especially not to the point that their lives are deemed five times as important as other peoples'. So, it looks like there needs to be a way of explaining people's moral judgments other than "They just think those people are more important."

To make the same point a different way, I assume most animal rights activists think it would be wrong to experiment on unconsenting humans for the sake of any number of rabbits. So there has to be more at work here than what they think is "worth more."
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

Ok, so, we assume they had myriad possible intentions with breaking and entering, theft, and releasing these animals.

In what world is this not condemned? I would get no sympathy from any poster here if I broke into your apartment, confiscated your cat, shouted some drivel about how keeping cats indoors is abominable and against their true nature, and then released Whiskers downtown where it was promptly run over by a car. How is this any different save behind a curtain of activism? I can't imagine any of you saying "Well, Izawwlgood may have simply been trying to raise awareness that keeping cats in apartments is unethical, the efficacy or motivation of his message isn't important."
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:13 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:So, yes, what I would like to do is thrust that bunny in their face and demand to know why they think it's worth more than a human life;

I doubt that they think that. You speak as if the only way to do ethics is to look at an action, list all its consequences, list all the consequences of omitting it, and then decide which outcome you value more. I don't mean that you think this is the right way; I mean you are attributing views to animal rights activists as if they couldn't conceivably think in any other way. But most people do think of things differently, at least some of the time. Consider, for example, the famous thought experiment in which you are given the choice to push a fat man into the path of a moving train so that the train won't hit five other people. Many people (most, in fact) think that it would be wrong to push the man in front of the train. Let's leave aside the question of whether they're right; what interests me here is the fact that people think this way at all. Is it right to say that these people think the fat man is worth more than the five people already on the track? That strikes me as absurd. Clearly our culture is not one that elevates fat people others, especially not to the point that their lives are deemed five times as important as other peoples'. So, it looks like there needs to be a way of explaining people's moral judgments other than "They just think those people are more important."

To make the same point a different way, I assume most animal rights activists think it would be wrong to experiment on unconsenting humans for the sake of any number of rabbits. So there has to be more at work here than what they think is "worth more."

They've done studies on the fat man trolly question, it varies based on how you word it. The more personal it is, the lower the kill rate. Compare pulling a lever to remove the fat man from existence, to taking a chain saw, and hacking the fat man apart to save several lives. The 2nd option has a lower response rate, even though the number of lives saved is the same. Tying it back to the thread, some of our knowledge on ethics also came from animal studies. Delicious delicious animal studies.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:18 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Ok, so, we assume they had myriad possible intentions with breaking and entering, theft, and releasing these animals.

In what world is this not condemned? I would get no sympathy from any poster here if I ...
You are ALL over the place, here.

You stated the activists hadn't thought out their actions. I disagreed. You put forth that OBVIOUSLY they hadn't thought them out because they wanted to SAVE animals and instead condemned to death. I put forth alternate reasoning for actions in this circumstance, and further claimed that since we don't anything about their reasons for these particular actions, criticizing their intelligence based on said actions is folly.

Nowhere did I say "they were totally in the right." I am saying YOUR claim that they're STUPID is baseless.

Pay attention.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby PeteP » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:24 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
natraj wrote:But having a different ethical system than you does not mean that people have not thought about it
We already went over this; they released animals into the wild that will certainly die there, and quickly. Probably painfully. Certainly 'uselessly'.
Fixed the quote misattribution.

You're strawmanning their goal into being saving the pwecious widdle animoos' wives. If their goal was to simply put the research animals beyond the reach of the researchers, then their actions weren't as poorly thought out.

Why set them beyond the reach of the researchers? I don't know of any moral resistance against animal testing which isn't about animal cruelty or killing animals? If there is could you please name it? Otherwise it is about the little animals, just that they don't particularly care about these specific animals.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

PM, considering this thread devolved into arguments about fighting Nazis, suffered people suggesting that most animal experimentation is baseless and maximizes the suffering of animals, I hardly think I'm the one you should be critiquing for being all over the place.

Princess Marzipan wrote:You stated the activists hadn't thought out their actions. I disagreed. You put forth that OBVIOUSLY they hadn't thought them out because they wanted to SAVE animals and instead condemned to death. I put forth alternate reasoning for actions in this circumstance, and further claimed that since we don't anything about their reasons for these particular actions, criticizing their intelligence based on said actions is folly.

Nowhere did I say "they were totally in the right." I am saying YOUR claim that they're STUPID is baseless.

I accepted your claim that there may be myriad motivations for their actions. I also accepted that my assumption, based on a few pieces of evidence, is only one such assumption you could make about their motivations. I directly answered that point however, in the hypothetical you cut off with ellipses; their motivations here, stupid or brilliant are fairly besides the point, because their actions are reprehensible.

Lets put down the 'fight the man, man!' boner that people are waving in support of these activists, and get some recognition that they sabotaged research on human neurological disorders.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:[Hey, look over there!]
You're the one I'm interacting with. And as far as the specific points I'VE been discussing, you're indeed all over the place. Even more so now. I've been making very specific claims and you've been arguing against a plethora of points I've said nothing about.

their motivations here, stupid or brilliant are fairly besides the point, because their actions are reprehensible.
I never argued they WEREN'T reprehensible. I merely argued they weren't *stupid.* If you conceded that point, I missed it entirely.

Edit: Ah, now I see. Where you conceded the point, I saw you as attempting reductio ad absurdum by assuming my point and then trying to prove it wrong by arguing their actions should still be condemned. And THAT'S what I mean by all over the place. You started arguing against a position I never took up.

PeteP wrote:Why set them beyond the reach of the researchers? I don't know of any moral resistance against animal testing which isn't about animal cruelty or killing animals? If there is could you please name it? Otherwise it is about the little animals, just that they don't particularly care about these specific animals.

It would be more of a "fuck you" to the animal research community.

"You want to cage these animals and do tests on them? FUCK YOU! What now!?"

Again, making no claims as to effectiveness or legitimacy, nor claiming any resemblance to actual motivations. Really, the point is moot - it's an alternate goal used for the purpose of showing that we can't make assumptions about the goal. It could have been this, it could have been that. We don't know, so arguments based on this or that are unfounded.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby jseah » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

Can I ask if the police have ways of dealing with this? Do they not have non-lethal means of subduing protestors who illegally camp at places? (eg. my earlier proposed tranquilizer gun)

Why did they need to negotiate with the protestors to let them leave with a hundred animals? It's not like the protestors have a bomb or anything destructive, so just arrest them, cart them out and be done with it. Maybe the scientists might even be able to recover some of the samples (DNA profiling can identify mutants).


The best way to discourage such protests is to negate their action as much as possible then punitive action for the rest. Efficiently remove them, negate their disruption as much as possible and sue them into the ground.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:[Hey, look over there!]

You're the one I'm interacting with. And as far as the specific points I'VE been discussing, you're indeed all over the place. Even more so now. I've been making very specific claims and you've been arguing against a plethora of points I've said nothing about.

Given that you're trying to be obnoxiously snarky here, I'm going to assume that you mean to ridicule me for pointing out that despite me making some potentially erroneous assumptions, the thread has fallen pray to significantly worse, and at times, far more ignorant assumptions. If so, good job, fine, lets focus on me;
You're making a number of specific claims, I've addressed them all, and provided counter arguments where I feel they are appropriate. If you find those counter arguments invalid or insufficient, by all means, be an adult and tell me why, and we can move forward from there.

Princess Marzipan wrote:Ah, now I see. Where you conceded the point, I saw you as attempting reductio ad absurdum by assuming my point and then trying to prove it wrong by arguing their actions should still be condemned. And THAT'S what I mean by all over the place. You started arguing against a position I never took up.
Yes, they were two separate thoughts; the first thought was 'You're right, I'm working under the incorrect assumption that there was only one motivation and that it was stupid. There are other assumptions we can make about their motivations, some of which may not be stupid.' I assume you even missed the follow up apology I issued?

But I then went on to state why I felt regardless of their motivation, their actions were reprehensible. I wasn't stating that YOU never claimed these actions weren't reprehensible. But sure, lets talk about you; where do you stand on this matter? I'm far less interested in debating the nuances of the moral calculus involved, and far more invested in making people aware that this sort of action, regardless of it's motivation, directly hinders the quest for treating human neurological disorders, and that as someone who works on human neurological disorders, I am quite invested in making sure people don't get the impression that this action is acceptable.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:58 pm UTC

jseah wrote:Can I ask if the police have ways of dealing with this? Do they not have non-lethal means of subduing protestors who illegally camp at places? (eg. my earlier proposed tranquilizer gun)

Why did they need to negotiate with the protestors to let them leave with a hundred animals? It's not like the protestors have a bomb or anything destructive, so just arrest them, cart them out and be done with it. Maybe the scientists might even be able to recover some of the samples (DNA profiling can identify mutants).


The best way to discourage such protests is to negate their action as much as possible then punitive action for the rest. Efficiently remove them, negate their disruption as much as possible and sue them into the ground.

Wait, we're negotiating with them? Why?

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Wait, we're negotiating with them? Why?
Presumably to prevent them from trashing more animal lines? I'm curious to see if they'll be sued for damages or anything.EDIT: But yeah, they were negotiated with; they were allowed to take ~100 animals in exchange for the promise that they would leave.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

That's bullshit. It's one thing if you disagree with me because animal rights. It's another when I have to give you more of my stuff AFTER you get caught. There's gotta be details I'm missing.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
natraj wrote:Because obviously the only correct value system is his value system.
But I'm supposed to respect a value system that espouses breaking and entering, destruction of property, potentially ruining some scientists careers, and setting back scientific progress, when the actions of said scientists are so unethical as to outweigh the ethical problems with vandalizing their lab Gotcha; that is a 'value system' I will simply have to be on board with.
Fixed that for you.

The only thing I particularly disagree with here is whether the bolded part actually obtained in this case. If they were experimenting on orphans or injecting unsuspecting people with syphilis under the guise of providing free healthcare, then you're damn right I respect a value system that espouses more extreme action than hoping to eventually get on some ethics review board and changing the system from within, or whatever it is you think they ought to have done instead.

Izawwlgood wrote:considering this thread devolved into arguments about fighting Nazis, suffered people suggesting that most animal experimentation is baseless and maximizes the suffering of animals, I hardly think I'm the one you should be critiquing for being all over the place.
The fact that others have made shittier arguments than yours is irrelevant to the shittiness or your argument.

Izawwlgood wrote:I would get no sympathy from any poster here if I broke into your apartment, confiscated your cat, shouted some drivel about how keeping cats indoors is abominable and against their true nature, and then released Whiskers downtown where it was promptly run over by a car. How is this any different save behind a curtain of activism?
It's different in exactly the same way that there's a difference between breaking into your lab to free the orphans you're experimenting on and breaking into your house to "free" your adopted kid.

Which is to say, pretty goddamn different.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's different in exactly the same way that there's a difference between breaking into your lab to free the orphans you're experimenting on and breaking into your house to "free" your adopted kid.

Which is to say, pretty goddamn different.
Totes true, it was a poor point to make... And...
gmalivuk wrote:The only thing I particularly disagree with here is whether the bolded part actually obtained in this case. If they were experimenting on orphans or injecting unsuspecting people with syphilis under the guise of providing free healthcare, then you're damn right I respect a value system that espouses more extreme action than hoping to eventually get on some ethics review board and changing the system from within, or whatever it is you think they ought to have done instead.
Given that no one is injecting these animals with Painonium under the guise of improving their happiness, this too, is a pretty poor argument.

So maybe I should say it again, this time directed at you gmal;
Izawwlgood wrote:But sure, lets talk about you; where do you stand on this matter? I'm far less interested in debating the nuances of the moral calculus involved, and far more invested in making people aware that this sort of action, regardless of it's motivation, directly hinders the quest for treating human neurological disorders, and that as someone who works on human neurological disorders, I am quite invested in making sure people don't get the impression that this action is acceptable.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So maybe I should say it again, this time directed at you gmal;
Izawwlgood wrote:But sure, lets talk about you; where do you stand on this matter?
Oh, I'm in complete agreement with you on the base question. What the activists did was, in my opinion, far worse morally than what the researchers were doing.

I'm just frequently more annoyed by bad arguments in favor of my own conclusions than by bad arguments opposing them.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I'm just frequently more annoyed by bad arguments in favor of my own conclusions than by bad arguments opposing them.
And at the very least, like you say, for the purposes of having better arguments, I should be aware of these flaws in my reasoning, so, for whatever it's worth, thanks to you and PM for pointing them out.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby jseah » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

sardia wrote:That's bullshit. It's one thing if you disagree with me because animal rights. It's another when I have to give you more of my stuff AFTER you get caught. There's gotta be details I'm missing.
This is apparently how protests work. I show up at your workplace, break in illegally, trash your stuff and then I still get to walk off with alot of it after the police arrive. Plus I don't go to jail either!
Yes, the police are not pressing charges.

I wonder why Europe has so many of these protestors? Hmm, let's see, oh right, you just let them do whatever they want! If the law was properly enforced, you wouldn't HAVE these problems, any protestors willing to do this would all be in jail!

Say what you want about countries repressing the freedom of speech and right to protest, but there is a certain elegance in having the law applied fairly and consistently. This sort of **** wouldn't fly in Asia (I grew up in Singapore), the government should not be afraid of prosecuting people who break the law. By the hundreds if need be.

Try this with a cosmetics plant and see how far you get? Maybe you might get to walk off with a few hundred tubes of eyeliners. :roll:

Protest legally. Make political waves, legally. When it's election time, vote! If the country ends up banning animal research, fine! It's all fair and square and all the labs will simply leave, that's what you want right? Break the law and you go to jail. If they think it's worth it, we'll see them behind bars and be done with it.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby darkone238 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
sardia wrote:That's bullshit. It's one thing if you disagree with me because animal rights. It's another when I have to give you more of my stuff AFTER you get caught. There's gotta be details I'm missing.

Yes, the police are not pressing charges.

...

Well congratulations, I didn't think I could be more annoyed by this news story, but this part kind of takes the cake. Morality and ethics aside, these people quite clearly broke the law AND they got what they wanted AND they won't be punished for it? In what world does this make sense?

</naive American>

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:07 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Given that you're trying to be obnoxiously snarky here, I'm going to assume that you mean to ridicule me for pointing out that despite me making some potentially erroneous assumptions, the thread has fallen pray to significantly worse, and at times, far more ignorant assumptions. If so, good job, fine, lets focus on me.
Spoiler:
I'm not trying to be "obnoxiously snarky." The reason I quoted you as saying "Hey, look over there!" is because you were essentially saying "Hey, look over there!" Gmal made the point (and I think you conceded it as well) while I was away that shittier arguments don't unshitty YOUR argument.

I'd lurked in this thread for a while and have been interested since hawinksssable posted. I'm not interested in weighing in with my opinion on the ethics of animal testing or these activists' actions, because I don't feel informed enough to do so. I am fully confident in weighing in to point out gigantic flaws in reasoning, like yours which I initially responded to - that the activists had "clearly" not thought their actions through, when, as hawkinsssable pointed out, we don't know ANY of their thought process.

Your replies continually built up straw out of my very precise and specific arguments and you've asked me to defend position I never stated.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:15 pm UTC

As you and Greg pointed out, speculating about the activists motivation is spurious at best, and ill endeavor to not do itanymore. If there's a specific point you want to continue, bring it up.

I am curious to hear hawks response to my post, because I'm under the impression that they have a very incorrect view of what animal testing actually encompasses and how it is conducted, as I indicated in that post.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:58 am UTC

jseah wrote:A good case for allowing the police to use tranquilizers on people. Chain yourself to a door illegally? We'll just put you to sleep and cut you loose, you'll wake up in the hospital later.


Tranquilizer darts do not actually work the way they do on TV. TV seems to think that you can just pick up the generic tranq-rifle you keep by the door, shoot whatever, and if it doesn't immediately go sleepy-time, just keep shooting them until it works!

Here in real life, tranquilizers have to be specifically formulated for the weight and species, and custom-loaded, both generally by a skilled physician specializing in the species in question (a large animal vet for most cases, in this case a doctor). Chemically, they're basically seat-of-your-pants anesthesia. And as you may have noticed if you've ever had surgery, you generally need a specialist near you at all times controlling that process to prevent you from bloody well dying on the table.

We use them on animals and not humans because, while we'd prefer the animal in question not die, we consider that outcome better than the alternative (either because the animal is loose and dangerous, or because it requires medical attention and can't be subdued in any other way). They are not actually good methods for subduing something. Both because of the risk of death, and the fact that you basically have to have an anesthesiologist on hand to make the damn things. Know many law enforcement agencies with the dosh to keep one of those on retainer? Not to mention the drugs themselves are fucking expensive. And considering how often cops tend to miss...
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:05 am UTC

Damn it, Jordan, you're ruining my dream of shooting protestors without any consequences. Best of all possible worlds? Hardly
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:20 am UTC

With a watch and a paperbag, you could probably knock a guy out on the cheap. But that's pretty close to attempted manslaughter.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:34 am UTC

Yeah, tranq guns are one of those things that TV represents terribly. *shrug* Other forms of knocking someone out are also usually pretty dangerous, and TV tends to skip over that, too. By now, James Bond would probably be drooling over the rug as a result of all the concussions he's had.

However, the whole "chaining yourself to a door" thing DOES rely on other people having the courtesy to follow the rules, while you obviously are not. It seems generally unwise.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby jseah » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:29 am UTC

Belial wrote:Here in real life, tranquilizers have to be specifically formulated for the weight and species, and custom-loaded, both generally by a skilled physician specializing in the species in question (a large animal vet for most cases, in this case a doctor). Chemically, they're basically seat-of-your-pants anesthesia. And as you may have noticed if you've ever had surgery, you generally need a specialist near you at all times controlling that process to prevent you from bloody well dying on the table.

XD Count me corrected! One learns something new every day it seems.

What about other non-lethal suppression methods? Tasers? Tear gas? (although that might kill the lab animals) Pepper spray?
Surely we have some way of subduing people without excessive risk of death. It's just a bit trickier if they've chained themselves to the door.

In this specific case however, if they were willing to wait at the door to negotiate, one has enough time to bring up an ambulance or two with proper doctors and paramedics to save them. I'd be fine if even if the police ended up breaking a few bones to get them out, although I'd draw the line at permanent injury. They're basically glorified vandals/trespassers and are resisting arrest (chaining themselves is essentially that).
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:51 am UTC

God does not play flag football. Basically any method for quickly incapacitating a resisting person is going to have a pretty decent chance of killing/maiming/permanently debilitating the person.

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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:02 am UTC

Trying to use knockout gas is horribly impossible as well.

During a hostage crisis in a Russia in 2002 a counter-terrorist unit pumped a gas into the building to incapacitate the hostage takers and managed to kill 130 of the 850 hostages because the gas pooled where the floor was lower due to the fact that it was a theater. At least all 40 hostage takers died...
Spoiler:
...from gunshot wounds.
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Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby fifiste » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:32 am UTC

Yes you usually do not tend to easily "just" lose consciousness or bodily functions etc., incapacitation to useful levels tends to be messy for the whole deal.
Some are of course better methods than other. The term less-than lethal is adequate -and some of those less-than lethal methods are more lethal and some well less.

To let the detaining/restraining etc. methods aside. (I myself sometimes yearn to see some good ol'e fashioned ass-whooping when someone is acting out in such a stupid way, though understand that it might not be such a good idea after-all). The fact that there is no prosecution AFTER the incident is astounding - you got people blatantly committing and confessing crimes, it's like all documented and happening right in front of witnesses and law enforcement. Then just meh..
WTF. The fact that the crimes are committed by an organized group should also ante up the charges in my mind.


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