Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Back to the topic, it doesn't really matter to me that animals were bred just for the purpose of science. It comes down to, 'is this a good use of our resources?'.
I don't fully understand the question; by 'good use of our resources', do you mean 'is science a good use of our resources'? Because a lot of science cannot happen without animal models. Or are you asking if we can do the research less expensively, both in terms of animal life and cost of maintaining that animal life?

CorruptUser wrote:For $20 I can get you a gold plated toilet seat for the proletariat. A gram of gold is like $50, which becomes 1 square meter of gilding, which can cover, what, 5 toilet seats?
I suppose I invalidated my entire point by using the word 'plated' instead of 'solid'
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Princess Marzipan
Posts: 7717
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 5:28 am UTC
Location: neither a road, nor an island

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

Wake me up when technology can force gases to sustain a shape without the need for a physical container, and we can make toilet seats out of chlorine.
"It's Saturday night. I've got no date, a two-liter of Shasta, and my all-Rush mixtape. Let's rock!"
"I am just about to be brilliant!"
General_Norris, on feminism, wrote:If you lose your six Pokémon, you lost.

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Fire Brns » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You're telling me you prefer how silver tarnishes compares to the lush green that copper gets?
If you can get the copper a nice green. Otherwise it's less noticeable until you can polish it. But a rich person can just plate it in rhodium.

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:For $20 I can get you a gold plated toilet seat for the proletariat. A gram of gold is like $50, which becomes 1 square meter of gilding, which can cover, what, 5 toilet seats?
I suppose I invalidated my entire point by using the word 'plated' instead of 'solid'
You'd sprain your wrist trying to lift it. Unless you had a personal toilet seat cover lifting butler.

Princess Marzipan wrote:and we can make toilet seats out of chlorine.
The chemical burns, so many chemical burns...
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

Princess Marzipan
Posts: 7717
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 5:28 am UTC
Location: neither a road, nor an island

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:27 pm UTC

Are you really going to let some piddly little chemical burns get in the way of Science?
"It's Saturday night. I've got no date, a two-liter of Shasta, and my all-Rush mixtape. Let's rock!"
"I am just about to be brilliant!"
General_Norris, on feminism, wrote:If you lose your six Pokémon, you lost.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:48 pm UTC

Or pooping?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:07 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Back to the topic, it doesn't really matter to me that animals were bred just for the purpose of science. It comes down to, 'is this a good use of our resources?'.
I don't fully understand the question; by 'good use of our resources', do you mean 'is science a good use of our resources'? Because a lot of science cannot happen without animal models. Or are you asking if we can do the research less expensively, both in terms of animal life and cost of maintaining that animal life?


I believe the main question we should be asking when evaluating any potential experiment is whether it is efficient, and yes, how we can do the testing more efficiently (both in terms of monetary cost and any suffering involved). Bashing in rabbit skulls to test the malleability of crowbars is probably a waste of grant money. Breeding rats with mutated genes and biopsing their nervous tissue to determine how their brains develop, while disgusting, is probably a good use of grant money.

That is not to say that the ethical question shouldn't be asked at all. It does become an interesting question when you try to determine the value of an animal's utility. For example, 'if process X can be done for $100 cheaper but it involves bashing in an extra 5 rabbit skulls is it worth it?'. I'm certainly willing to pay a penny to prevent 100 rabbits from bred just to have their skulls bashed in, but I wouldn't pay $1m to save one rabbit. The rest is negotiation.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The rest is negotiation.
Sure, and I think it's important to realize that A ) people may disagree on what's an acceptable cost both in terms of animal suffering and dollars, B ) breaking into a lab and destroying the experiments is not acceptable, and C ) arguing about the utility of the research requires more than a modicum of knowledge about the field/science/goals.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:41 pm UTC

Oh I agree on all those points. I just think that the people arguing for the higher costs should have to pay some part of that cost. Because it's all too easy to say an animal is worth $5000 of someone else's money.

Just as in virtually everything else, if you make people pay themselves rather than force everyone else to pay on their behalf, suddenly they sing a different tune.

Spoiler:
What really bothered me a few years back was a case in Florida. A family was on Medicaid, and had an infant that was missing a pair of chromosomes or something. It was about as alive as a mushroom. The hospital had already spent $2m on life support, and was pulling the plug. The family started screaming bloody murder, saying the greedy hospital was killing their precious Cletus the Fetus. Of course, they were demanding that everyone else pay more taxes, cut back on their own lives, all the doctors and nurses wasting time, because they didn't have to pay. But a lot more lives could've been saved with that $2m than just a single lump of flesh that had never been conscious. If you want to know why the US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other major country yet has mediocre care, that's why. I doubt France would've paid for any of that.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:53 pm UTC

Which is a funny point; I remember an article about how France's health care system provides postpartum psychotherapy and vaginal exercise trainers, after discovering that the investment of assigning women a therapist and a personal trainer is vastly cheaper than the costs associated with postpartum depression and recovery. There's a brass tax argument to be made for a lot of things when you look at medicine or research on a macro level. Which is, again, why I found this to be such a frustrating event; protesters rescue approximately a hundred ish lab animals, and destroy the research projects of a handful to a dozen graduate students, potentially destroying the careers of a couple of scientists, and set back the field.

But, anyway, I place the value of animal life quite low, and at least some of the imperative to reduce suffering as a cost/requirement/effort to be undertaken by humans *for* humans; it takes a type of person I'd rather not associate with to be comfortable causing 'unnecessary' suffering to animals. I'm a fan of scientists remembering that the pursuit of knowledge is noble and grand and dandy, but that we are empathetic social creatures who are ultimately trying to improve the lives of other empathetic social creatures.
EDIT: Mind you, me setting the value of animal life low is by no means a suggestion that we should disregard animal life. 'Value' here is a fuzzy term.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Yoshisummons
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:47 pm UTC
Location: Happily curled up in a cardboard box alone

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Yoshisummons » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:21 pm UTC

No way does copper look better, the Statue of Liberty has just a better marketing team.

OT: Sad thing to see people take decisive actions that do nothing but hinder the dialogue.
eran_rathan wrote:Listen to the man with the cone on his head - these are Words of WisdomTM.

Mambrino
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:45 pm UTC
Location: No we don't have polar bears. Except in zoos.

Re: Animal Rights Activists Trash Italian Lab

Postby Mambrino » Thu May 02, 2013 4:37 am UTC

Since I've been occasionally following the on-going discussion (on animal testing) in this thread, I found this particular piece of news uncannily funny.

Nature: Major breakthrough in ageing research.

http://www.nature.com/news/molecules-in ... ng-1.12891

Molecules in the brain trigger ageing

Activity in the hypothalamus affects cognitive and physical decline.

The area of the brain that controls growth, reproduction and metabolism also kick-starts ageing, according to a study published today in Nature1. The finding could lead to new treatments for age-related illnesses, helping people to live longer.

Dongsheng Cai, a physiologist at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, and his colleagues tracked the activity of NF-κB — a molecule that controls DNA transcription and is involved in inflammation and the body's response to stress — in the brains of mice. They found that the molecule becomes more active in the brain area called the hypothalamus as a mouse grows older.

(...)

The research “is certainly worth a lot of additional attention”, says [Richard Miller, a pathologist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor]. He thinks that Cai's study will stimulate research into treatments for slowing down age-related illnesses that are linked to inflammation, such as arthritis, diabetes and Alzheimer’s disease.


Emphasised words by me.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mcd001, sardia and 14 guests