Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 years

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Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 years

Postby Thesh » Tue May 07, 2013 5:30 am UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 0620130507

(Reuters) - Three Ohio women believed abducted separately about a decade ago were found alive on Monday at a Cleveland house near where they were last seen, and three brothers were arrested as suspects in their disappearances, police said.

Police said they were alerted to the whereabouts of the women by a frantic emergency call from Amanda Berry, who was freed from the house by a neighbor who said he heard screaming and came to her assistance.

"Help me! I'm Amanda Berry. ... I've been kidnapped and I've been missing for 10 years and I'm here. I'm free now," Berry, 26, is heard frantically telling a 911 operator in a recording of the call released by police and posted on the website of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

During the call, she gave the name of her alleged abductor, said he was "out of the house" and urged police to come quickly. She indicated that she knew her disappearance had been widely reported in the media.

The neighbor, Charles Ramsey, said in an interview broadcast by CNN that when he arrived, Berry appeared desperate to get through the door, which did not open properly.

"I see this girl going nuts trying to get outside," he said, adding that he was astonished when she identified herself.

"Then I realized I'm calling 911 for Amanda Berry. I thought that girl was dead," he said. He said Berry had emerged from the house "with a little girl."

The two women found with Berry were identified by authorities as Gina DeJesus, 23, who vanished in 2004 at age 14, and Michelle Knight, who was reported to have been 20 when she disappeared more than a decade ago.


I can't even imagine how traumatizing that must be.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby ShortChelsea » Tue May 07, 2013 10:35 am UTC

When I hear about stories like this it gives me hope for other people who have been missing for more than a year.
I hope the women in this story will be able to move on with their lives and be reunited with their families.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby PolakoVoador » Tue May 07, 2013 1:33 pm UTC

Cheers for the girls who got released.

But I cannot even imagine what goes on the mind of people who perpetrate this kind of shit. Kidnapping and imprisoning someone forever?

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 07, 2013 1:35 pm UTC

That's actually a tradition in many parts of the world. Look up 'bride kidnapping' if you feel you have too much faith in humanity.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue May 07, 2013 1:56 pm UTC

The disturbing frequency of marriage via kidnapping traditions throughout history aside, this is seriously distinct from that. You're comparing wild almonds to radioactive rotten chicken filled with every parasite known to man.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 07, 2013 2:15 pm UTC

...a few ounces of wild almonds will kill you faster.


The guys that do this do this because they think their own pleasure is more important than any rights the girls should have. Being in a literal rape culture doesn't make it more moral.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Angua » Tue May 07, 2013 2:40 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Are wild almonds different to almonds that are growing wild? Those weren't poisonous when I ate them...
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Red Hal » Tue May 07, 2013 2:49 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Wild (bitter) almonds have sufficient amygdalin (which breaks down to cyanide under mechanical handling), that ingestion of a few handfuls will be lethal. Wild almonds are - indeed - different from the cultivated (sweet) species which do not produce amygdalin.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 07, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

The guy who called 911 is a fairly interesting character. In a good way! But yeah, I can't imagine the trauma these girls are under.

Interestingly, one of the girls mothers was told by a psychic on the Montel William Show that her daughter was dead, and stopped the search. Lots of tweets about what a scumfuck the psychic is.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 07, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

Every psychic involved in missing persons cases are scumfucks. Every last one. They often hear about the case on the news, and approach the family offering their services for a substantial fee. So either they are a) extorting the family by refusing to hand over information, or b) defrauding a family that has been brought to desperation.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby HungryHobo » Tue May 07, 2013 5:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The guys that do this do this because they think their own pleasure is more important than any rights the girls should have. Being in a literal rape culture doesn't make it more moral.


It's not just guys.

I used to work with an indian grad student and in the part of india he was from groom-napping was a apparently a significant thing. Especially for high status husbands. He was a skinny little guy a few months from the title "doctor" and only visited home during a month of the year when (by some kind of tradition) no marriages took place.

He talked about how some of his neighbours got grabbed like that.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Роберт » Tue May 07, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The guys that do this do this because they think their own pleasure is more important than any rights the girls should have. Being in a literal rape culture doesn't make it more moral.


It's not just guys.

I used to work with an indian grad student and in the part of india he was from groom-napping was a apparently a significant thing. Especially for high status husbands. He was a skinny little guy a few months from the title "doctor" and only visited home during a month of the year when (by some kind of tradition) no marriages took place.

He talked about how some of his neighbours got grabbed like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_kidnapping
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

You'd think that due to India's horrible history of female infanticide, by now it'd be the groom's family who had to pay a dowry. What's this, my daughter is the only girl in this village, because everyone else decided to abort their daughters? I don't have to pay you chit!

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Adacore » Wed May 08, 2013 1:36 am UTC

I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet that Amanda Berry appears to have a six year old daughter. I'd imagine that has to have been a big factor in why she decided to seek help now - at six she's supposed to be in school, and you'd start worrying about what was going to happen to the child when she got older, especially in that environment, with their captors (who I'm assuming were sexually motivated) around.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Thesh » Wed May 08, 2013 1:43 am UTC

Looks like the police had been called in the past about the house, but they never did anything more than knock on the door. I know hindsight is 20/20, but it seems like if there had been multiple reports on multiple occasions that something more should have been done.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 0620130508

(Reuters) - As three Cleveland women reunited with their families on Tuesday after vanishing for about a decade in their own neighborhood, police scoured the house they escaped from for clues on how they could be held captive for so long with no one noticing.

Cleveland authorities said there was one attempt to visit the home in 2004 on an unrelated matter but no one answered the door. They said they combed through records and found no other calls to the house nor reports of anything amiss in the years the women were missing.

But neighbors said they had made more than one call to police about suspicious activity at the house.

Amanda Berry, 27, who disappeared in April 2003, along with Gina DeJesus, 23, who vanished in 2004, and Michelle Knight, 32, who went missing in 2002, were held captive at the house.

Rescued with them on Monday was a 6-year-old girl who police said was Berry's daughter. She would have been conceived and born during Berry's captivity.

Israel Lugo, a neighbor, said he called police in November 2011 after his sister saw a girl at the house holding a baby and crying for help. He said police came and banged on the door several times but left after no one answered.

Lugo said about eight months ago, his sister saw Ariel Castro, who owns the house, park his school bus outside the house and take a large bag of fast food and several drinks inside.

"My sister said something's wrong ... That's when my mom called the police," he said. Lugo said police came and warned Castro not to park the bus in front of his house.

Cleveland police, who had brothers Ariel Castro, 52, Pedro Castro, 54, and Onil Castro, 50 arrested as suspects in the case, did not immediately respond to repeated requests seeking comment about the reported calls.

At a news conference on Tuesday, Mayor Frank Jackson said: "We have no indication that any of the neighbors, bystanders, witnesses or anyone else has ever called regarding any information, regarding activity that occurred at that house on Seymour Avenue."
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby emceng » Wed May 08, 2013 3:05 am UTC

Yeah, I mean hindsight and all, but from the number of stories you read where the police are relentless busybodies and arresting people for for flimsy reasons, I think they should hve been able to piece together 'hey some weird shit is going on here. let's at least check it out.'
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Adacore » Wed May 08, 2013 4:08 am UTC

I dunno, from what I've seen in the media, there were four contacts with police - they visited to check on him when he left a kid on a bus in 2000 (before the girls were kidnapped), they visited for an unrelated matter in 2004 (someone being out when you knock doesn't seem terribly suspicious), then there was one call about a naked woman seen by a child and another about a woman with a baby calling for help. I agree that last one should maybe have been followed up more thoroughly, but taken over a period of 13 years, those four police contacts don't seem to form a particularly suspicious pattern to me. All but the last event sound like very minor things it's unlikely the police would even remember for more than a few days.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed May 08, 2013 5:26 am UTC

The police department probably doesn't routinely check for all previous incidents at a location when they get a call.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby aoeu » Wed May 08, 2013 7:05 am UTC

Almost always "there has been a lot of hints". It's just the background noise.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Angua » Thu May 09, 2013 12:23 pm UTC

I thought this was an interesting article highlighting 'Missing white woman syndrome'. Two girls went missing around the same time, and the Caucasian one got twice the media attention as the Hispanic one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22441124
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 09, 2013 12:47 pm UTC

Angua wrote: 'Missing white woman syndrome'.


I always thought it was "missing white girl" since it's especially pronounced in cases of young girls.

Chances of the media giving a damn
Victim is a small child or baby: +++
Victim is a young teenager: +
Victim is an older teenager: -
Victim is an adult:--
Victim is female:+++
Victim is male:---
Victim is white:++
Victim is non-white:--
Victim is from a poor family:-
Victim is from a middle class family:+
Victim is from a rich family:++
Victim is from a rich well known or celebrity family:++++

and I'm pretty sure the attention it gets is exponential vs the number of pluses.

And it isn't limited to reporting about crimes.

You get the same effect with pretty much anything which kills or maims people from diseases to accidents which overwhelmingly effect one group.

If you went on media coverage or even funding allocated to deal with the problems you'd believe that similar numbers of male and female teenagers drowned or that cervical cancer killed more people than stomach cancer or that malaria killed less than breast cancer.

If something happens to you you better hope you're not a poor black man because nobody will want to know. On the other hand if you're a little white girl no expense will be spared.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby eran_rathan » Thu May 09, 2013 12:52 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:If something happens to you you better hope you're not a poor black man because nobody will want to know. On the other hand if you're a rich little white girl no expense will be spared.


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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 09, 2013 12:54 pm UTC

The majority of people that consume media are white. The girl that looks like she could be their possible daughter is going to sell more media. The white girl will look more like their possible daughter than the black girl. Therefore covering the missing white girl sells more media.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Heisenberg » Thu May 09, 2013 3:02 pm UTC

At first I thought this was all hindsight, but if these accounts are correct, then multiple people independantly called the police about naked women leashed outside. That's seems like it should be investigated.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Роберт » Thu May 09, 2013 6:31 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:At first I thought this was all hindsight, but if these accounts are correct, then multiple people independantly called the police about naked women leashed outside. That's seems like it should be investigated.

....um, yeah. If true, mega fail. Mega mega fail. I mean, let's say the women crawling around leashed and naked wanted to be there? What harm is there in investigating and talking to them? It seems worth a serious follow up.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Adacore » Thu May 09, 2013 11:24 pm UTC

So the prosecutors are pushing for aggravated murder charges (which carry a possible death sentence) on the basis that he induced miscarriages through beatings. That seems like a terrible idea to me - there must be more than enough kidnapping, sexual assault, battery, &c. charges to put the man in prison for life, but then I disagree with the death penalty in general, and apparently it's fairly clearly an acceptable charge under Ohio state law (where unborn babies are defined as people for the purposes of a lot of crimes).

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 pm UTC

I figure they're probably going for that specifically because it carries the death penalty.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 10, 2013 12:38 am UTC

In most jurisdictions a forced abortion is murder.

While I lukewarmly favor abortion, I don't disagree.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Diadem » Fri May 10, 2013 11:03 am UTC

Forcing a miscarriage is a serious crime, and should carry a harsh penalty. But it's not murder. A fetus is not a person.

This is the same bullshit as charging minors as adults or charging domestic terrorists as enemy combatants (or, indeed, the very term 'enemy combatant'). I always thought truth was an important part of justice, but the American justice system seems obsessed with building elaborate fictions to obfuscate the truth.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Chen » Fri May 10, 2013 12:30 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Forcing a miscarriage is a serious crime, and should carry a harsh penalty. But it's not murder. A fetus is not a person.


Its general covered under fetal homicide laws which provide an exception for legal consented abortions. So not exactly murder but effectively the same thing without getting into the problems of trying to define "person".

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 10, 2013 12:38 pm UTC

And at what point does a fetus become a live human? At conception, more than 2/3 of embryos fail to implant due to genetic problems. A heartbeat may have emotional value but it's a biological process like any other. Nervous tissue is just tissue for a long time. The point at which a fetus is viable outside the womb is not clear cut, and there's a reason we aren't born at 6 months. Even then, humans are all born premature, as our hips have not kept up with our skulls. It's not even clear that newborns are any more sentient than late term fetuses.

We all just pick the point that suits our needs rather than starting with solid logic. If you want abortion, it's not alive until long after the time you go to the clinic. If you oppose abortion, it's alive as soon as you are pregnant. In this case, a guy who kidnapped and tortured 3 girls for a decade is on trial and the DA wants him locked up for good. For all we know the murder charge is added to convince him to plea bargain for life imprisonment. Keep in mind this is a man who committed at least a thousand acts of rape. This wasn't one night of horror that victims often trigger back to, this was an entire decade stolen from these girls. The decade when they are supposed to be learning job skills, going to college, falling in love, marrying, it's gone for them. Their lives have been destroyed.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri May 10, 2013 12:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 10, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

Leave the abortion debates to abortions threads. IF you really, really want to have them

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Diadem » Fri May 10, 2013 2:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It's not even clear that newborns are any more sentient than late term fetuses.

Which is why infanticide should not be murder either (or treated as a different category of murder. I'm not hung up on terminology).

CorruptUser wrote:For all we know the murder charge is added to convince him to plea bargain for life imprisonment.

O yes. A bogus murder charge is totally cool if it's only used to blackmail a suspect into signing a plea bargain.

What this guy did is terrible, but he still deserves a fair trial. Part of a fair trial is fair charges, that reflect what he is suspected of having done. The practice of trumping up charges to make suspects sign a please bargain falls under the same category as charging minors as adults or domestic terrorists as enemy combatants: A perversion of justice.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 10, 2013 2:17 pm UTC

Yes yes, but we don't live in that perfect world of infinite resources. There are over 10,000 murders in the US each year, do you think we have the resources to send out 100 officers and lab technicians and so forth every time there's a murder? Any idea how much lab work costs? $10m per murder would amount to $100B a year. Then there's the investigations for every rape, burglary, assault, etc. Justice ain't cheap. So we do what's most cost effective.

It's all well and good to say we should spare no expense to separate the innocent from the guilty, until YOU have to make the sacrifice. Shoukd you have to pay more tax? Should we cut education to pay for the trials? Should we cut Medicare? Reduce Medicaid? Eliminate foodstamps?

Society has determined that the best use of the limited resources we have is the way we allocated them now. You can disagree in that there is a better way to allocate resources, but be prepared to actually decide where those resources have to come from.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Роберт » Fri May 10, 2013 2:56 pm UTC

They aren't trumped up charges. They're real violations of the current legal code. Whether you think that law should stay in place or not is another question, but forced abortion is probably at least as traumatizing as forced birth, and should definitely be illegal, and if he did kill the fetus, which was illegal under the current law, he should be charged with it.

Nothing really controversial, I wouldn't think.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 10, 2013 3:03 pm UTC

This came up in the Scott Peterson case, where a man murdered his 8 month pregnant wife and was charged with double homocide.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Metaphysician » Thu May 16, 2013 7:45 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Yes yes, but we don't live in that perfect world of infinite resources. There are over 10,000 murders in the US each year, do you think we have the resources to send out 100 officers and lab technicians and so forth every time there's a murder? Any idea how much lab work costs? $10m per murder would amount to $100B a year. Then there's the investigations for every rape, burglary, assault, etc. Justice ain't cheap. So we do what's most cost effective.

It's all well and good to say we should spare no expense to separate the innocent from the guilty, until YOU have to make the sacrifice. Shoukd you have to pay more tax? Should we cut education to pay for the trials? Should we cut Medicare? Reduce Medicaid? Eliminate foodstamps?

Society has determined that the best use of the limited resources we have is the way we allocated them now. You can disagree in that there is a better way to allocate resources, but be prepared to actually decide where those resources have to come from.



Legalize drugs, end the drug war, regulate and tax drugs, set free those imprisoned for non-violent drug crimes and retro-actively wipe their drug related crimes from their records so they can get work more easily, and we'll free up plenty of money to investigate the crimes that cause real damage.
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 16, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

Legalizing drugs isn't a magic cure all that people make it out to be. Even if drugs are cheap, where people don't have to mug someone for just a single fix, a person on heroin is a person not working. China went to war with Britain because a good chunk of its workers were on Opium and every Chinese on Opium was a Chinese not working. The tax base will fall far more than any taxes on the stuff will raise. There's a big reason why the stuff is illegal, beyond any prison industrial complex conspiracy (though that does exist).

Unless you can demonstrate how legalization will reduce drug use beyond 'magic!', please don't claim that legalization is an obvious fix. We consume something like $60B worth of herbal/homeopath/supplemental/snake oil every single year, and AFAIK that stuff isn't nearly as addictive as cocaine.

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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 16, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Legalizing drugs isn't a magic cure all that people make it out to be. Even if drugs are cheap, where people don't have to mug someone for just a single fix, a person on heroin is a person not working. China went to war with Britain because a good chunk of its workers were on Opium and every Chinese on Opium was a Chinese not working. The tax base will fall far more than any taxes on the stuff will raise. There's a big reason why the stuff is illegal, beyond any prison industrial complex conspiracy (though that does exist).

Unless you can demonstrate how legalization will reduce drug use beyond 'magic!', please don't claim that legalization is an obvious fix. We consume $60B worth of herbal/homeopath/supplemental/snake oil every single year, and AFAIK that stuff isn't nearly as addictive as cocaine.


Realistically, any drug legalization would take a gradual form. It's gonna take a minute for everyone to come around to pot being ok...nobody is gonna be in a hurry to legalize cocaine. It's probably just going to find a new balance, with some especially bad drugs still being illegal, but the milder ones eventually being legalized.

The big thing, though is that imprisonment is hella expensive, and isn't really very good at fixing the basic problem of drug use. Specialized treatment programs are, I believe, much more cost effective for actually freeing a person from drugs. Now, we probably won't entirely replace the current criminalization w/regards to drugs with treatment, but at least we can make a move in that general direction.

Now, at the end of the day, smoking pot in your parents basement all day instead of getting job skills is still a bad idea, but if we're not starting a criminal record for the pothead, and not forcing them out of mainstream society, it makes it easier for them to recover if and when they come to their senses. It's a bit like alcohol, really. Sure, alcoholism is definitely a real issue. So is drunk driving. Some nasty costs associated with these things...but while certain behaviors have to be criminalized, prohibition really didn't work out well for us. It led down a dark path with the US government intentionally poisoning it's own people, and conducting a de facto war against a large segment of it's society. Organized crime had a massive income flow as a result, and caused even more violence.

It's not that drug legalization is good, per se. It's just that it's less bad.

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Iulus Cofield
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Re: Abducted women escape after being held captive for 10 ye

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri May 17, 2013 12:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Unless you can demonstrate how legalization will reduce drug use beyond 'magic!', please don't claim that legalization is an obvious fix. We consume something like $60B worth of herbal/homeopath/supplemental/snake oil every single year, and AFAIK that stuff isn't nearly as addictive as cocaine.


Portugal.


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