AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

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Zamfir
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:16 am UTC

A strong presence of fundamentalism correlates closely with a crappy social net (Sweden and Holland have excellent social nets; they also have very few fundamentalists

Oh yes we do. I can't talk about Sweden (they have them as well I think).There's a lot of strict Calvinists in the Netherlands. Typically, they do not accept evolution. There's also a more US-inspired Evangelical wing with the same views on evolution. For example, there's a guy who built a life-size replica of the ark of Noah to show where the animals would fit, and several colleagues of mine have taken their children to visit.

A serious fraction of them oppose vaccinations because that would be messing with god's intentions, so there's always a region in the country with elevated levels of contagious diseases. Currently, there's a measles epidemic. To top it up, one particular section of the conservative Calvinists is very loyal to their own political party, so the Netherlands has a members of parliaments whose official stance is that the country should become a theocracy, and that women should not be allowed to vote. Though lately they are becoming a tad more flexible on the latter. I think you can guess their views on Teh Gay.

Catholics fundies have been declining for decades, monasteries for example are now all but non-existent. Perhaps social spending was s factor in that decline. Muslim fundies on the other hand are a significant group now, as part of a general rise of Muslims as share of the population. You'll find a lot of Koran literalists who accept evolution just as little as Bible literalists. I even knew some scientists like that.

Also, the Maharishi Magesh Yogi lived in Limburg :) Though Limburg is the deep south of the country, it doesn't really count.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Vash » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

In the old North, never wasn't a new posit bringing around wolpermacht. The stars stride when near the SSRI bottle the fries mold.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:10 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Oh yes we do.
Oh yes you have very few fundamentalists, or oh yes we actually have quite a large number of them?
Zamfir wrote:I can't talk about Sweden (they have them as well I think).There's a lot of strict Calvinists in the Netherlands. Typically, they do not accept evolution. There's also a more US-inspired Evangelical wing with the same views on evolution. For example, there's a guy who built a life-size replica of the ark of Noah to show where the animals would fit, and several colleagues of mine have taken their children to visit.

A serious fraction of them oppose vaccinations because that would be messing with god's intentions, so there's always a region in the country with elevated levels of contagious diseases. Currently, there's a measles epidemic. To top it up, one particular section of the conservative Calvinists is very loyal to their own political party, so the Netherlands has a members of parliaments whose official stance is that the country should become a theocracy, and that women should not be allowed to vote. Though lately they are becoming a tad more flexible on the latter. I think you can guess their views on Teh Gay.

Catholics fundies have been declining for decades, monasteries for example are now all but non-existent. Perhaps social spending was s factor in that decline. Muslim fundies on the other hand are a significant group now, as part of a general rise of Muslims as share of the population. You'll find a lot of Koran literalists who accept evolution just as little as Bible literalists. I even knew some scientists like that.
It's both heartening and disheartening to know that religious fundamentalism's opposition to basic science isn't purely an American conceit; that being said, it might be naive of me, but I've always suspected that the best way to combat toxic religion is by creating more positive alternatives for the adherents and their children.

(Then again, it's kind of hard to do this when the adherents demand the right to deny access to those positive alternatives to their children. Or, in this case, adherents demand that we respect their right to abuse women, and describe any attempt to stop that abuse as an attack on their religion.)

EDIT: This is kind of what I mean by avoiding making it about religion; it's not really about religion, it's about the abuse. But the people engaged in that abuse won't let you make it just about the abuse -- because when we subtract religion from it, what we're left with is -- uh, pretty telling. Just one group of people facilitating the rape and abuse of another group.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby addams » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:47 pm UTC

Evolution or God?
That is Not Fair!

This is How God did it.
That is Fair.

When we Run Up Against a Wall we can turn to each other and shrug?
God Did It.

What we do to and with one another does say something about the Nature of Our Gods.
What is Your God Like? No God? Good.

What are You and Your People Like?
Like Gods? Do you Judge Other People?
Like Gods?

Yes. We do need Legal Standards.
Laws of Men. Laws that constrain the Actions of Men.

When I type Men I usually mean both Men and Women.
There was a long and heated discussion When I came from.
It was centered around Personal Pronouns.

The Big Ones were 'In The course of Human Events' and 'Man's Responsibility to Man.'
It is cumbersome to write and say men and Women.

"Man's Inhumanity to Man." needs to be changed, too?
Man and Woman's Inhumanity to Other Men and Women?

See? It is clumsy. What are You wanting from Religion?
An excuse to do what you are already doing? That works.

What are you already doing? How awful are we?
Who is We? The Netherlands? They are a them.

That place is bigger than it looks on a Map.
I know that to be a Fact! What kind of People Run That Place?

I don't know. I do know the Architecture is often Whimsical.
It stands up like other people's buildings. But; I have seen some of Those cities from a distance.
They look like a Good Child's Play Yard. It is true.

How do The People treat one another? Some are kind and polite.
Many are Kind and Polite. That was My Experience.

Some are Jerks. The Jerks seem to be all the same.
We know they are Not. Each one is a whole individual.

The Not Jerks tend to be busy and very sweet.
Those people have a lot to do. Some do not want to Do Anything.
The rest seem to be able to pick up The Slack, somehow.

We have Rape, Sexual Assault and Violence Raging across our screens?
They have Internet, too. They are a highly populated non-homogenized Nation.

The US is different. It is a Non-homogenized Nation, too.
The People of The Middle East have Laws that Punish The Victim?

The Laws are different where The Victim is Now?
My concern is for The Victim. Is she well, now?

Does she want to change The System that caused her to be a Victim?
What was it, Again? I know I don't keep up.

EDIT: I reread the OP.
Eight Months in Jail?
For Reporting Rape?

That is a Bad thing.
Yes. I believe it.

I was Threatened with Five Years.
If I reported a Beating that I thought might Kill Me, I was told I would be in Jail for Five Years.
I thought about that. I did not Report it. I did speak to a Female Officer. She was nice. I, still, did not Report it.

I am sorry she had not been warned.
At least I was able to make a choice.
She did not know.

She is ok, now?
umm. This may be a Good Reason to stick to some of The Local Customs.
No Woman Goes Anywhere, Alone!!

Those girls can hang out in Gaggles.
It is not true Every Where.
But; Some places are Not Safe.

Having a drug placed into a drink is so easy.
Who is on High Alert, all the time?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby johnny_7713 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:08 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Oh yes we do.
Oh yes you have very few fundamentalists, or oh yes we actually have quite a large number of them?


The political party Zamfir mentioned (the SGP) consistently gets 2 out of 150 seats in parliament, so that's 1.3% of the vote. There's probably some fundamentalists that vote for one of the other Christian parties, so I guess 1.5-2% of the population would qualify. I'll leave it up to you to judge whether that's a large number. Unless you live in the Dutch Bible Belt they will have very little impact on your daily life.
A big difference with fundamentalists in the US is that the Netherlands used to be segregated along political and religious lines (the main groups being catholic, protestant, socialist and liberal [in the classical European pro-small government sense]). This lasted until about the 60ies of last century. Each group had their own schools, newspapers, political parties, broadcasting corporations, etc. Crucially though no one group was powerful enough to rule on their own, so as a result they were forced to cooperate at the higher levels of politics. It also resulted in groups focussing mainly on policing themselves internally and defending their rights / desires (e.g. state funding for religious schools), as opposed to forcing their beliefs on others. This has carried over to the present day, so while for example the fundamentalists won't vaccinate their own children, you don't see them protesting outside hospitals when other people have their children vaccinated. Similarly, although the official position of the SGP is that women shouldn't have the vote, they don't refuse to cooperate with female MPs of other parties.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby addams » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:57 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Oh yes we do.
Oh yes you have very few fundamentalists, or oh yes we actually have quite a large number of them?


The political party Zamfir mentioned (the SGP) consistently gets 2 out of 150 seats in parliament, so that's 1.3% of the vote. There's probably some fundamentalists that vote for one of the other Christian parties, so I guess 1.5-2% of the population would qualify. I'll leave it up to you to judge whether that's a large number. Unless you live in the Dutch Bible Belt they will have very little impact on your daily life.
A big difference with fundamentalists in the US is that the Netherlands used to be segregated along political and religious lines (the main groups being catholic, protestant, socialist and liberal [in the classical European pro-small government sense]). This lasted until about the 60ies of last century. Each group had their own schools, newspapers, political parties, broadcasting corporations, etc. Crucially though no one group was powerful enough to rule on their own, so as a result they were forced to cooperate at the higher levels of politics. It also resulted in groups focussing mainly on policing themselves internally and defending their rights / desires (e.g. state funding for religious schools), as opposed to forcing their beliefs on others. This has carried over to the present day, so while for example the fundamentalists won't vaccinate their own children, you don't see them protesting outside hospitals when other people have their children vaccinated. Similarly, although the official position of the SGP is that women shouldn't have the vote, they don't refuse to cooperate with female MPs of other parties.

Well; Hasn't this stumbled delightfully off topic.

Yes. Everyone has Radicals.
Yours are Reasonable Level Headed Citizens.

Most of you vaccinate. That protects the children of the few that do not.
So, strange. They think woman should not vote? I did not know that.

I do remember the Heady days of, "If only women ruled the world."
pfft. Women and men are the same animal.

All that history keeps your people inside bounds.
We don't have that.

I am experiencing a kind of Inferiority Complex.
My Nation and her people are not living up to The Promise.
I feel bad about it. The public conversations can not take place over here.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Angua » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:22 am UTC

The exact same thing has happened to a Norwegian woman - she's got a 16 month sentence.

She was charged with extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, and perjury. I'm not sure where the perjury came from, given that the article says the man was convicted for 13 months extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.

Disgusting.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

Angua wrote:The exact same thing has happened to a Norwegian woman - she's got a 16 month sentence.

She was charged with extramarital sex, drinking alcohol, and perjury. I'm not sure where the perjury came from, given that the article says the man was convicted for 13 months extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.

Disgusting.


If I had to guess: the woman claimed she was raped, if the court finds that claim to be false (e.g. due to lack of 4 male Muslim witnesses as I think the standard is) it could find that she has made a false statement under oath, i.e. has committed perjury.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

Do all crimes require 4 male Muslim witnesses? If not, then it looks like they are taking a pick and choose approach to the Koran.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do all crimes require 4 male Muslim witnesses? If not, then it looks like they are taking a pick and choose approach to the Koran.

Just crimes against women.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:13 am UTC

No such rule even exists. The commonly cited verse in question (these) pertain to dealing with accusing a woman (of adultery) without 4 witnesses (no gender is even mentioned).

(There's massive disagreement about how the quran deals with these things in the first place, and again, the vast majority of muslim nations operate under their own law, not religious law.)

I've no idea where the whole "must be 4 male witnesses for rape cases" thing came from. There is some historical record of it happening before (particularly for proving a particular accused male, not for proving that they were raped), but again, local laws, not religion. If anything, the religion itself demands that courts immediately drop charges from a woman if they claim they were raped, with just her sole testimony being required.

Again, not an expert, just because I spent a while studying it.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:59 pm UTC

Steax wrote:No such rule even exists. The commonly cited verse in question (these) pertain to dealing with accusing a woman (of adultery) without 4 witnesses (no gender is even mentioned).

(There's massive disagreement about how the quran deals with these things in the first place, and again, the vast majority of muslim nations operate under their own law, not religious law.)

I've no idea where the whole "must be 4 male witnesses for rape cases" thing came from. There is some historical record of it happening before (particularly for proving a particular accused male, not for proving that they were raped), but again, local laws, not religion. If anything, the religion itself demands that courts immediately drop charges from a woman if they claim they were raped, with just her sole testimony being required.

Again, not an expert, just because I spent a while studying it.


According to the original article, linked in the OP:

``What Alicia didn’t know is that under the UAE’s strict sharia laws, if the perpetrator does not confess, a rape cannot be convicted without four adult Muslim male witnesses.''

As you say, probably a local law, not a general islamic thing, or the article got it wrong.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:41 pm UTC

Steax wrote:No such rule even exists. The commonly cited verse in question (these) pertain to dealing with accusing a woman (of adultery) without 4 witnesses (no gender is even mentioned).

(There's massive disagreement about how the quran deals with these things in the first place, and again, the vast majority of muslim nations operate under their own law, not religious law.)


Religious law there is much like religious law in christian countries. What, exactly, god commands and how it should be enforced tends to differ depending on group and what not. Islam isn't monolithic any more than Christianity is.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:35 pm UTC

Okay, so I can see how, under that system, there would be insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape. We'd probably do the same in western countries, since I'm pretty sure the word of any one person is insufficient to convict anyone of any crime, be that person a man or woman. But how do they make the leap from "there's insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape" to "there's sufficient evidence to convict the woman of consensual extramarital sex"?
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby addams » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:22 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Okay, so I can see how, under that system, there would be insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape. We'd probably do the same in western countries, since I'm pretty sure the word of any one person is insufficient to convict anyone of any crime, be that person a man or woman. But how do they make the leap from "there's insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape" to "there's sufficient evidence to convict the woman of consensual extramarital sex"?

I have no idea.
It makes no sense what so ever.

It reminds we of words spoken to me by a Law Student or Graduate.
I did not look at her Law Licence. She said the same thing over and over, again.

Very strongly and with quite some passion, "There is No Justice; There is Just Us!"
I asked her about what she had said. I was not able to understand the answer.

I did not go to Law School. They have a language. I was not fluent in despair.
She may have been a woman in despair. I don't know.

Injustice is an important part of the understanding of people that study Justice.

I tried. I liked her. She seemed to like me. I told her a story. She liked the story. Maybe it fit the words of her Mantra.

I told her an old story that has been told many times before.

It is the story of One child. He is One of Five.

Spoiler:
I do not remember the names of all Five off the top of my head.
The Five Children are not regular children in the story.

Each one is the inbodyment of a Quality.
It is a very long and convouluted story.

One part of the story is about Justice.
He is a male in the story.

It is Time for the Golden Children to walk the earth together, again.
(in some old fairy tails there are Waves of Peace and Waves of Disharmony.)

Justice is excited and ready to Go. (it is a longer story than that. But; This is the internet. Fast paced. No time for the back story.)
Justice is born into the World as a little boy baby.

The Evil ones know he is here. (it is a very exciting story. very cloak and dager.)
The Evil ones find him and kill him.

The Moral?
"We live with the Memory of Justice.
We live with the Hope of Justice.
If there is to be Justice in The World,
we must act as if Justice had never died."

We do not get to act all crazy.

It is the way Some people of Faith act.
Some people of Faith act as if Justice is alive and well. (in Heaven.)

God may not be here, now.
People of faith attempt to act as if God were here, now.

Some people limp along with a memory of Justice and hope of Justice.
Some people go to Law School and Work for Justice.

Those people get very upset, sometimes.
Many become Atheists. Some start out that way.

Some lawyers believe one thing.
Other lawyers believe something different.

To go to prison for reporting a crime is not nice.
If that is True, then the more women know about that law and how to avoid the punishment is a going to be important.
Who needs to know? Is it True?

This law has victums?
Is it true?

Good God! People all over the world are missusing their Justice systems?
How awlful.
Spoiler:
I miss spell check.
I know if God intended me to fly he would have given me wings.

If God had intended me to write he would have given me spell check.
I did have spell check!

I think the Police may have taken my computer. (that computer could spell very well.)
It could have been regular 'No Goodnics'.

i got yelled at for reporting the crime.
I did not go to jail for reporting the crime.

Those poor women. Are they ok now?
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby A duck » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:42 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Okay, so I can see how, under that system, there would be insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape. We'd probably do the same in western countries, since I'm pretty sure the word of any one person is insufficient to convict anyone of any crime, be that person a man or woman. But how do they make the leap from "there's insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape" to "there's sufficient evidence to convict the woman of consensual extramarital sex"?


Well, she's admitted to having sex, the filthy whore. And obviously it was consensual, because otherwise she would have screamed or something.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:44 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:According to the original article, linked in the OP:

``What Alicia didn’t know is that under the UAE’s strict sharia laws, if the perpetrator does not confess, a rape cannot be convicted without four adult Muslim male witnesses.''

As you say, probably a local law, not a general islamic thing, or the article got it wrong.


A combination of both. See, Sharia law (obviously) doesn't cover anything, and the mechanism for stuff not explicitly mentioned in the Koran (which, as per the verse I linked, is the case in this particular situation) is to have "religious scholars"/judges make up their own interpretation, sometimes borrowing judiciously from old customs and other sources. The only rule is that their decision must have a consensus amongst themselves and must be accepted by the "community".

So yeah, you can see how shit goes down from there.

And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, other muslim-dominant countries do not have similar laws, or even customs.

SlyReaper wrote:Okay, so I can see how, under that system, there would be insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape. We'd probably do the same in western countries, since I'm pretty sure the word of any one person is insufficient to convict anyone of any crime, be that person a man or woman. But how do they make the leap from "there's insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape" to "there's sufficient evidence to convict the woman of consensual extramarital sex"?


Sounds like stuff happened in the courtroom we don't know about. I guess the men argued back that it was consensual, and there wasn't enough proof of rape, or something else happened. So at the end the judge concluded that it was consensual, jailing them all, then adding an extra punishment for perjury. I don't know. That's how I'd imagine the thing to go down, but I'm even less of a legal expert and I'd try to look into more detailed information if I could find out.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:27 am UTC

Steax wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Okay, so I can see how, under that system, there would be insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape. We'd probably do the same in western countries, since I'm pretty sure the word of any one person is insufficient to convict anyone of any crime, be that person a man or woman. But how do they make the leap from "there's insufficient evidence to convict the man of rape" to "there's sufficient evidence to convict the woman of consensual extramarital sex"?


Sounds like stuff happened in the courtroom we don't know about. I guess the men argued back that it was consensual, and there wasn't enough proof of rape, or something else happened. So at the end the judge concluded that it was consensual, jailing them all, then adding an extra punishment for perjury. I don't know. That's how I'd imagine the thing to go down, but I'm even less of a legal expert and I'd try to look into more detailed information if I could find out.

But that doesn't make any sense. In no sane legal system does the absence of evidence for the plaintiff imply that the plaintiff was lying. There would have to be specific evidence for that. The word of the accused shouldn't be sufficient evidence, because of course they'd say anything to avoid or lessen their punishment.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:17 am UTC

My statement was entirely speculation and I know very little about the laws of that area. It just seemed (to me) to smell of the idiotic "she was asking for it" excuse some people get away with. I don't know exactly what happened, though.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

She's received a pardon from Dubai, her passport has been returned, and she's free to go. Apparently Norway put enough pressure on Dubai to get her out. Unfortunately, it appears her attacker is also free to go, which makes a strange sort of sense considering the court found they were guilty of the same "crime," but is still terrible as he's escaping justice. Change your shitty laws, Dubai.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

They won't. They'll keep selling this false image of a progressive oasis in the region for the sake of tourism, and foolish westerners will eat it all up. Shiny buildings and commodities easily distract most idiots.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:25 pm UTC

The problem I see is that there are a lot of companies that transfer staff to that part of the world. That is, often women don't have much choice in going there, unless they want to deny a 'promotion', effectively courting career suicide.


As controversial as it may be, you don't stop wolves without understanding how and why they attack. Why are these rapists attacking? Entitlement, power issues, or is consensual sex simply unavailable? I mean, in a part of the world where the upper class 'occupies' a disproportionate share of the women, an economy in part based on (male) migrant workers, combined with a slightly larger sex ratio at birth and higher female mortality due to various reasons, and you pretty much have entire swaths of men who simply can't have consensual sex.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby cphite » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The problem I see is that there are a lot of companies that transfer staff to that part of the world. That is, often women don't have much choice in going there, unless they want to deny a 'promotion', effectively courting career suicide.


Denying a promotion isn't career suicide. It might mean finding new employment. You just have to decide if that particular job is worth going to a place with such a horrible record for human rights.

As controversial as it may be, you don't stop wolves without understanding how and why they attack. Why are these rapists attacking? Entitlement, power issues, or is consensual sex simply unavailable? I mean, in a part of the world where the upper class 'occupies' a disproportionate share of the women, an economy in part based on (male) migrant workers, combined with a slightly larger sex ratio at birth and higher female mortality due to various reasons, and you pretty much have entire swaths of men who simply can't have consensual sex.


Not to mention that their legal system makes it practically encourages the behavior. It's virtually impossible for a man to actually be charged with rape; and in most cases, even if the assailant is charged with something, the victim will receive punishment that is just as severe, if not more so.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:59 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:They won't. They'll keep selling this false image of a progressive oasis in the region for the sake of tourism, and foolish westerners will eat it all up. Shiny buildings and commodities easily distract most idiots.
While I would describe entering a foreign city with the expectation that their laws are similar to ones back home as a certain type of ignorance, I wouldn't describe people who carry that expectation as idiots. While I think it may be wrong of me to presume that an architecturally modernized city also has a modernized justice system, I don't think that presumption makes me an idiot; I think that just makes me vulnerable.

I don't mean to get all challenging, here; I just don't like the possible proximity of the word 'idiot' with 'rape victim who's getting brutalized by the system'. I also don't think presuming that a legal system will not brutalize you is idiotic so much as demonstrative that you've probably never been brutalized by a legal system.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I also don't think presuming that a legal system will not brutalize you is idiotic so much as demonstrative that you've probably never been brutalized by a legal system.


Which might explain why Mexican immigrants are so hesitant to report crimes. In Mexico, the legal system is notorious for how terrible it can be.

That and possible deportation if illegally here.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Azrael » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:34 pm UTC

Vash wrote:In the old North, never wasn't a new posit bringing around wolpermacht. The stars stride when near the SSRI bottle the fries mold.

I have a feeling this might be meant to mock a fellow thread participant? If so, don't be a dick.

If not, you may be experiencing a medical emergency.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:18 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
Vash wrote:In the old North, never wasn't a new posit bringing around wolpermacht. The stars stride when near the SSRI bottle the fries mold.

I have a feeling this might be meant to mock a fellow thread participant? If so, don't be a dick.

If not, you may be experiencing a medical emergency.


I have no idea what he was trying to say.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby johnny_7713 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The problem I see is that there are a lot of companies that transfer staff to that part of the world. That is, often women don't have much choice in going there, unless they want to deny a 'promotion', effectively courting career suicide.


As controversial as it may be, you don't stop wolves without understanding how and why they attack. Why are these rapists attacking? Entitlement, power issues, or is consensual sex simply unavailable? I mean, in a part of the world where the upper class 'occupies' a disproportionate share of the women, an economy in part based on (male) migrant workers, combined with a slightly larger sex ratio at birth and higher female mortality due to various reasons, and you pretty much have entire swaths of men who simply can't have consensual sex.


In both cases mentioned here the women were raped by colleagues, not native Dubaians (or whatever the proper demonym is).

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

The overwhelming majority of rapists are people the victim knew. Did the colleagues have girlfriends or wives?

Not that relationshipped people don't rape, but I'd imagine the rape rate would be lower than for otherwise equivalent singles. Not including spousal rape of course.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:04 pm UTC

Assuming that a percentage of women are capable of identifying and avoiding abusers (not easy), I would hope that women would tend to choose partners who are not abusive. This wouldn't imply that marriage makes you less likely to abuse, it would simply imply that a significant number of women are good judges of character.
CorruptUser wrote:and you pretty much have entire swaths of men who simply can't have consensual sex.
I'm skeptical of the idea the availability of sex has any meaningful tie to rape. I don't believe that most men would rape simply to satisfy their desire for sex. I also don't believe that rapists would stop abusing women simply because they have regular consensual sex.

These are not hungry wolves who can be satiated. If your neighbor is beating his dog, finding him a more obedient dog is not going to solve the problem.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Assuming that a percentage of women are capable of identifying and avoiding abusers (not easy), I would hope that women would tend to choose partners who are not abusive. This wouldn't imply that marriage makes you less likely to abuse, it would simply imply that a significant number of women are good judges of character.


Alternatively, it could mean that as marriage is a social construct that usually takes a certain degree of time to arrive at, the char trait is often revealed before that time. I would imagine that discovering a violent, criminal side to a would-be husband might throw a wrench in wedding plans. However, as cultures differ, the degree of ease with which a wedding is broken off could be a factor.

CorruptUser wrote:and you pretty much have entire swaths of men who simply can't have consensual sex.
I'm skeptical of the idea the availability of sex has any meaningful tie to rape. I don't believe that most men would rape simply to satisfy their desire for sex. I also don't believe that rapists would stop abusing women simply because they have regular consensual sex.

These are not hungry wolves who can be satiated. If your neighbor is beating his dog, finding him a more obedient dog is not going to solve the problem.


Satiation isn't a great strategy, true...but there is still some useful insight there if we view it from a different angle...instead of being about sex, of it being about power. The young, single, non-wealthy are probably a lot more lacking in power, and this could be an attempt to claim the trappings of that.

Don't know if this is true, of course, but I'd suggest looking at rates of other crimes to see if there is a trend of attempting to compete for power in other areas. If not...probably the wrong track.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Vash wrote:In the old North, never wasn't a new posit bringing around wolpermacht. The stars stride when near the SSRI bottle the fries mold.

I have a feeling this might be meant to mock a fellow thread participant? If so, don't be a dick.

If not, you may be experiencing a medical emergency.


I have no idea what he was trying to say.


Take that idea and see if you detect it repeated with any of the posters here ;p.

Oddly enough it also sounded like the tribal speak from Cloud Atlas.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby BattleMoose » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:58 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Lucrece wrote:They won't. They'll keep selling this false image of a progressive oasis in the region for the sake of tourism, and foolish westerners will eat it all up. Shiny buildings and commodities easily distract most idiots.
While I would describe entering a foreign city with the expectation that their laws are similar to ones back home as a certain type of ignorance, I wouldn't describe people who carry that expectation as idiots. While I think it may be wrong of me to presume that an architecturally modernized city also has a modernized justice system, I don't think that presumption makes me an idiot; I think that just makes me vulnerable.

I don't mean to get all challenging, here; I just don't like the possible proximity of the word 'idiot' with 'rape victim who's getting brutalized by the system'. I also don't think presuming that a legal system will not brutalize you is idiotic so much as demonstrative that you've probably never been brutalized by a legal system.


It does make you vulnerable. Going to a new country without knowing their laws is certainly a type of foolish behaviour. Fortunately for the most part people generally know that any type of drug behaviour in Muslim countries are harshly punished. The primary problem here is that people generally just don't know how vulnerable they are in places like Dubai, especially regarding to rape, but by no means restricted to rape.

The best way to remedy this is to talk about it.

Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:21 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.


Because as a rapidly developing area, there is a shitload of money to be made there? Or you happen to from that area, and are comfortable with the system? Or you are wealthy or well connected enough that you can get around the system?

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:35 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.


Because as a rapidly developing area, there is a shitload of money to be made there? Or you happen to from that area, and are comfortable with the system? Or you are wealthy or well connected enough that you can get around the system?


And when you don't carry such advantage, you're an idiot for going there. People know how much of the UAE operates.

It's about as blood boiling as seeing some dumb white fuck come to Latin or Central America and be shocked when the government propaganda fed to them from abroad is not really how things function in the country, that all that bad talk from people who have suffered under those regimes is just prejudiced exaggeration or sour grapes.

And yet Dubai is allowed to spread this sanitized image of being some version of a secular Turkey or, if you don't want to go as far, maybe Lebanon. So idiots will keep falling for it. Not just the women that are raped. That wealthy white gay man with a thing for "exotic" locals ending up in prison if not lynched already. Even something as simple as the straight WASP American guy who wandered off the tourist area and made the expected social mistake that lands him in prison for blasphemy or some other crime offensive to the religious mores of the country that said country hides from their brochures.

These countries are giving the appearance of progress because the elite in their country adopt all these advances in commodities, but the society on which the country is based is just as backwards despite all the make-up put on it by PR agencies hired by the elite who brought all those props to make bank.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:45 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:It does make you vulnerable. Going to a new country without knowing their laws is certainly a type of foolish behaviour. Fortunately for the most part people generally know that any type of drug behaviour in Muslim countries are harshly punished. The primary problem here is that people generally just don't know how vulnerable they are in places like Dubai, especially regarding to rape, but by no means restricted to rape.

The best way to remedy this is to talk about it.

Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.


Is it religion, though? Or is it their local laws?

Here's a map of drug restriction laws on, say, cannabis:
Spoiler:
Image


Here's human rights risks:
Spoiler:
Image


For context, here's a map of where muslims are located:
Spoiler:
Image


Again, I'm not exactly sure if religion is the one to blame here. And, also again, most muslim nations don't operate under so-called sharia law.

I'm a huge supporter of engaging governments to fix their laws and help their people live better lives. But blanket assumptions based on religion will only sidetrack the conversation. For what it's worth, we know that fighting religion with science doesn't always work, so it tends to be better to use science directly as evidence instead.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:45 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.


Because as a rapidly developing area, there is a shitload of money to be made there? Or you happen to from that area, and are comfortable with the system? Or you are wealthy or well connected enough that you can get around the system?


And when you don't carry such advantage, you're an idiot for going there. People know how much of the UAE operates.


Well, it is a risk. I won't call someone an idiot for taking risks like that, but I do hope they go in considering all the available information. There definitely is money there, but other disadvantages definitely exist. Still, I wouldn't want to put all the responsibility on the person who chose to go there.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby BattleMoose » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:50 am UTC

Steax wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:It does make you vulnerable. Going to a new country without knowing their laws is certainly a type of foolish behaviour. Fortunately for the most part people generally know that any type of drug behaviour in Muslim countries are harshly punished. The primary problem here is that people generally just don't know how vulnerable they are in places like Dubai, especially regarding to rape, but by no means restricted to rape.

The best way to remedy this is to talk about it.

Personally I would never go to any of the UAE (most of the middle east for that matter) purely because of their laws and human rights abuses that I find to be so objectionable. And generally cannot wrap my head around people who knowingly make the decisions to live there, knowing their laws.


Is it religion, though? Or is it their local laws?


It is their local laws. I explicitly stated that it was their local laws (and human rights abuses) that I find so objectionable. Why their local laws are the way they are is certainly interesting and worthy of discussion but bear little impact on how I view the country.




Here's a map of drug restriction laws on, say, cannabis:
Spoiler:
Image


I honestly don't care at all about cannabis. I don't view it as a human right to be able to partake in it and if some countries want to outlaw it, I really don't care. (Capital punishment or very harsh punishment for Cannabis is something that I would find highly objectionable) I know I don't like it when people smoke it 4+ times a week.

Here's human rights risks:
Spoiler:
Image


My biggest issue is always with state sanctioned human rights abuses. I know for a fact that the human rights abuses in South Africa are (at least none that I know of) never state sanctioned. The bill of rights of South Africa is for the most part, a copy past of the UDHR. But yes, I am very cautious of countries with large track records of human rights abuses. There is a reason I have emigrated to Australia. And while I really want to visit St Petersburg, I know I would have to be very careful while doing so. /personal circumstances

For context, here's a map of where muslims are located:
Spoiler:
Image


Again, I'm not exactly sure if religion is the one to blame here. And, also again, most muslim nations don't operate under so-called sharia law.


I made a comment regarding Muslim countries and penalties regarding drug use. I again realise that I wasn't careful enough in phrasing that comment. The comment was also very ancillary to the point I was trying to make. I should have included another generally.

Fortunately for the most part people generally know that any type of drug behaviour in Muslim countries are generally harshly punished.


I was using the fact that capital offences for drug use disproportionately occur in "Muslim" countries, to support the general perception that I claimed for the general population that generally people know to be cautious with respect to drugs in Muslim countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_pu ... rafficking

I counted 18 "Muslim" countries that have capital punishment for some aspect of drug activities, representing 56% of countries.

I'm a huge supporter of engaging governments to fix their laws and help their people live better lives. But blanket assumptions based on religion will only sidetrack the conversation.


Its the laws I find objectionable. I agree that blanket assumptions are wrong. The relationship between capital punishment for drug use and "Muslim" countries is not an assumption, it is real. That's not to say all Muslim countries execute for drug use, indeed most don't, but that they are disproportionately represented among countries that do.

Maybe I should have just said that, it is generally known that Muslim or Islam influenced countries can punish drug use very harshly.

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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:13 am UTC

I agree.

It's particularly interesting to me, since I've had experience in helping deal with crimes (including rape) in a number of muslim-dominant nations or areas, but not in the middle east per se (Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey). My experience has been something I think would be about "average" for the world; the police were helpful and the justice system worked, but it wasn't as forceful as it should be and the supporting infrastructure wasn't there. Those are issues which can be built upon, and are a lot easier than changing age-old "laws" or constitutions. There's still prejudice, hate, intolerance and assholes running around, but victims were not discriminated against.

It appears to be cropping up as a dilemma for rich middle eastern nations such as the UAE. They can't afford to overthrow the nation's foundation because it's destroy the economy and stability for several years, but that's the fundamental issue. I no longer see it as a religion thing, and more as a problem with states that are still dictated by custom and lack the democratic/rational mechanism to change laws. And there are a ton of them out there, some worse than others.
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Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:41 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:And when you don't carry such advantage, you're an idiot for going there. People know how much of the UAE operates.
So, just to clarify -- the low-income workers who were imported to Dubai under false pretenses -- had access to their passports restricted and/or revoked -- and ended up essentially becoming slave labor -- were idiots? That was the problem? Not that Dubai lied to them -- but that they were just too stupid to realize they were being lied to?

People do not know how much of the UAE operates. People are a varied lot; their knowledge is diverse, and their expectations often complex. In point of fact: Dubai is, as you said, probably investing a lot into making sure people do not realize just how terrifying it actually can be.

The fact that you're not 'falling for it' doesn't make the people who do into idiots. I realize it's deeply frustrating to see people buy into the same narrative again and again, but it's the narrative they're selling for a reason -- people buy it. Dismissing those who 'fall for it' as idiots doesn't help; if anything, it only hurts.


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