"One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
poochyena
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 2:02 pm UTC

"One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby poochyena » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:56 am UTC

http://www.christianpost.com/news/one-m ... zow-97440/

"one million moms" (quotations because its actually only around 10,000 members if i remember correctly) has decided to protest a new show on The Hub "SheZow" since it feature a male character that cross-dresses as a female super hero. i read the comments about the show on many websites and alot of people seem to support the protest and have banned their children from watching the channel.. i just don't quite understand how this show negatively effects anyone

"Hub network is being irresponsible and causing great damage to our culture," partially reads the text of the "Take Action" email One Million Moms suggests concerned parents send to Discovery and Hasbro. "I am appalled that Hub intends to air a show that portrays cross dressing in a positive light on a kid's channel. I strongly encourage Hub to drop all plans to air the program 'SheZow.'"

Claiming the program will confuse young viewers, the pro-family group suggests that impressionable children will want to imitate "SheZow's" main hero character, Guy Hamdon (voiced by Sam Vincent). "It won't be long before little boys are saying, 'I want to be a girl, so I can help people and save the world!'" the group suggests.

OH GOD THE HORROR, A LITTLE BOY WANTING TO WEAR A DRESS!!!!! :roll:

User avatar
PolakoVoador
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:11 pm UTC
Location: Brazil

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:14 am UTC

Yeah, isn't it better when kids simply put on a cape and jump from the balcony because they think they can fly?

elasto
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby elasto » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:34 am UTC

It's very odd. Don't these people understand that when women started wearing trousers, that was seen as 'cross-dressing' too. And yet would any of them blink at wearing trousers now? Do any of them think society is the worse for women being able to wear trousers or power suits or whatever?

Do they not see that they are feeding into the stereotype of 'maleness is 'strong'' - so it's 'ok' for women to aspire to act like men - and 'femaleness is 'weak'' - so it's not 'ok' for men to aspire to act like women.

And isn't that a far more destructive meme?

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10119
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:55 am UTC

Geez...all the problems in the world, and this is the one thing that strikes them as most critical to protest? What clothes people decide to wear is really the biggest threat to our culture? Damn.

Tirian
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:03 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Tirian » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:07 am UTC

Ah, the symbiotic relationship between the cultural watchdog group that nobody cares about and the cable channel that nobody has heard of. I wonder how much crappy television and movies get undeserved publicity just because the American Family Association is offended by it.

Joeldi
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Joeldi » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:37 am UTC

Although the response from One Million Moms is aggravating and depressing as usual, reading up on the show, I wouldn't expect it to be much of a big supporter of gender-queer issues, or even feminism for that matter.

From tvtropes
"SheZow loses her powers if her hair is frizzled."
"If the costume's color is changed from pink, her powers will go on the blink."
"the Heavy-Handed She-Slap"

Alone those could be taken as just character traits and not sexism, but I get the impression the show is a barrage of stereotypes about women..
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9388
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby addams » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:45 am UTC

Good point. Cheep advertising.

I would Love to see groups of Moms protesting Violence.
I think witnessing violence is damaging to children and me.

People look nice in clothes. Most people look much better dressed than undress.
I know; That is opinion. Men should be encouraged to dress as they please.

How stupid is it that Women can wear work clothes, (Pants are work clothes)
And; Men can not wear dresses? It is a stupid rule.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10119
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:47 am UTC

Frankly, I never heard of it before today, and still have no intention of ever watching it...but it still sounds pretty trite, and the whole issue just seems petty.

Also, it's a damned shame that truth in advertising doesn't apply to people advertising themselves as "one million" when they're nothing even vaguely close to that and never have been.

User avatar
jsn
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:29 pm UTC
Location: ca

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby jsn » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:11 am UTC

is it just me, or are they putting less and less effort in to their press releases? it's comical at this point; i'm not sure if they think they're accomplishing any progress towards staking out their cultural ideals, but they definitely get the attention they want. i imagine that someone makes sure to contact them with details on these sorts of things specifically so they can write about how we should boycott it.

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7542
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby phlip » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:31 am UTC

Joeldi wrote:Although the response from One Million Moms is aggravating and depressing as usual, reading up on the show, I wouldn't expect it to be much of a big supporter of gender-queer issues, or even feminism for that matter.

From tvtropes
"SheZow loses her powers if her hair is frizzled."
"If the costume's color is changed from pink, her powers will go on the blink."
"the Heavy-Handed She-Slap"

Alone those could be taken as just character traits and not sexism, but I get the impression the show is a barrage of stereotypes about women..
All I know about this show I got from The Internet, and this is basically the impression I get... it's full of girly stereotypes (and particularly female-superhero stereotypes) that would in sum be just horribly sexist if it was a female character (at first I almost typed "female protagonist", but of course this hypothetical character would be a sidekick)... but instead it's a male character and the juxtaposition is a source of humour. However, it sounds like (most of the time) the humour is at the expense of the stereotypes, not at the expense of the character... which is the right way to do it. That is, the joke is more often "ha, people say this is just for girls, but I'm doing it and it's just fine thanks", more than it's "ha, you're doing this thing, and that makes you girly, you girly-girl you". It's not 100%, and it could be a lot better, but it's a step in the right direction at least.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:34 am UTC

Yeah, I watched the first episode, and I'm not quite sure yet. Part of the SheZow character (the original SheZow, I mean) seems to be flamboyant femininity, which by itself isn't any more damaging than, say, having a flamboyantly homosexual character; the kid's sister seems ordinary enough, and the gag is that the boy has a very masculine-stereotype self image and has to cope with the kitsch of his aunt's tastes (and by the end of the first episode, is replacing random syllables with "she" to get into character, enough that it becomes a minor plot point.) From just the one episode, the stereotypes do seem to be more about the Aunt's character than about femininity in general, and he's getting to "explore" that identity a bit. But it all depends on how it's handled in context episode-by-episode.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
Djehutynakht
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:37 am UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:17 am UTC

I say we counter-protest with large posters of Bugs Bunny in all of his many crossdressing outfits.

Because Bugs Bunny is both awesome and a symbol of our traditional culture.


Reminds me of a movie I watched recently called "ParaNorman".

*Spoilers ahead*

Although a pretty good movie about the supernatural, it had very underlying tones of tolerance, acceptance, appreciating differences, and all of these other family-friendly themes. Which people liked. It concerned, immediately, the Witch Trials and Zombies.

Then at the end of the movie, one of the super-macho dumb-Jock characters, who had been super-macho dumb-Jock the entire movie, let slip that he was gay. And it wasn't even in serious context. His announcement was used as a joke (a female character had been lusting over him the entire movie, and then he lets slip at the end that he has a boyfriend in casual conversation-- it was actually pretty funny).

Apparently, however, it riled up a bunch of conservative groups. Their responses basically amounted to "That was a good movie on tolerance and acceptance... except for the gay kid at the end".

Oh media. Thou art something.

snow5379
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby snow5379 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:18 pm UTC

Why would someone even care? It's a cartoon. Entertainment. Either you like it or you don't... and if you like a show that involves a guy wearing a dress how is that different from liking a show that involves guns or violence? It doesn't mean you're going to do it. Maybe I just don't understand "family values" but honestly it couldn't be more damaging than like South Park or something. And even then if my kid wants to watch whatever it's their choice and as long as their not doing drugs or anything I couldn't be mad at them.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby DSenette » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:25 pm UTC

the show, by all accounts is probably pretty crappy as a TV show, and most definitely NOT a big win for the LGBT or women's rights community. as previously stated, just about every description of the plot revolves around stereotypes of weakness in women. so much so that it actually seems rather stupid for the guy to "crossdress" in the first place since there are so many "silly girl" things that will cause trouble. i'm certain if they get a long enough contract they'll have an episode where violent mood swings and an uncontrollable urge to eat chocolate will be the character's undoing titled "aunt flo comes for a visit".


that said, the OMM protest revolves around one thing and one thing only "OH NOEZ TEH GEY!". they haven't been outraged about a single thing other than rainbow oreos being tainted with queerifying food coloring, or TV shows that will teach your kid to put their penis in another boy's butt because someone in it wears a dress when they shouldn't be.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:Although the response from One Million Moms is aggravating and depressing as usual, reading up on the show, I wouldn't expect it to be much of a big supporter of gender-queer issues, or even feminism for that matter.

From tvtropes
"SheZow loses her powers if her hair is frizzled."
"If the costume's color is changed from pink, her powers will go on the blink."
"the Heavy-Handed She-Slap"

Alone those could be taken as just character traits and not sexism, but I get the impression the show is a barrage of stereotypes about women..


Welcome to cross dressing =/

phlip wrote:All I know about this show I got from The Internet, and this is basically the impression I get... it's full of girly stereotypes (and particularly female-superhero stereotypes) that would in sum be just horribly sexist if it was a female character (at first I almost typed "female protagonist", but of course this hypothetical character would be a sidekick)... but instead it's a male character and the juxtaposition is a source of humour. However, it sounds like (most of the time) the humour is at the expense of the stereotypes, not at the expense of the character... which is the right way to do it. That is, the joke is more often "ha, people say this is just for girls, but I'm doing it and it's just fine thanks", more than it's "ha, you're doing this thing, and that makes you girly, you girly-girl you". It's not 100%, and it could be a lot better, but it's a step in the right direction at least.


I'm not sure how the simple transposition of gender stereotypes to a different gender helps to dismantle them in any way.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7542
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby phlip » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:28 pm UTC

Brace wrote:I'm not sure how the simple transposition of gender stereotypes to a different gender helps to dismantle them in any way.

It can help to ridicule them - by putting them in a context where they're not automatically accepted by the audience, their ridiculousness can be highlighted.

Again, I want to reiterate I haven't seen the show - from what I understand, it doesn't do a perfect job of this. This is just in principle, that a show could do this.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:42 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
Brace wrote:I'm not sure how the simple transposition of gender stereotypes to a different gender helps to dismantle them in any way.

It can help to ridicule them - by putting them in a context where they're not automatically accepted by the audience, their ridiculousness can be highlighted.

Again, I want to reiterate I haven't seen the show - from what I understand, it doesn't do a perfect job of this. This is just in principle, that a show could do this.


Usually that's doomed to failure because the performance of gender stereotypes by someone who isn't "supposed" to exhibit them is what's seen as ridiculous, not the stereotypes themselves. Here's a question: Do you think crossdressing would exist if gender stereotypes didn't? Because I don't think it would. I'm 100% sure that transsexuality would still exist, but I'm also very confident that crossdressing as a practice would go away. Usually people posit the literal exact opposite but those people are idiots.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7542
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby phlip » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:58 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Here's a question: Do you think crossdressing would exist if gender stereotypes didn't?

I think "crossdressing" as a concept would be pretty hard to define if gender stereotypes didn't exist, let alone existing or not. If you actually managed to define "crossdressing" in a way that still made sense as a concept in a gender-role-less world, then I'd have to think about that particular definition.

But then I don't think that's particularly relevant to the topic at hand. Just saying "in a perfect world, x wouldn't happen" does not necessarily mean that forcing x to not happen will help cause a better world to come about... neither does it necessarily imply that x happening is harmful to moving toward a better world. Even if a completely gender-role-less world couldn't entertain crossdressing as a concept, that doesn't mean that crossdressing inherently supports gender roles. Come out as a result of them, sure, but so does every single action we make, good or bad... they're just that ingrained at present.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:02 pm UTC

Something I've always found curious is how Brits seem to find crossdressing hilarious, and totes acceptable in comedy. It's obviously a cultural thing ("We can joke about it, but that's it!"), and once again, shockingly, the insipid OMMs swings and misses for anything worth actually giving a damn about.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:25 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
Brace wrote:Here's a question: Do you think crossdressing would exist if gender stereotypes didn't?

I think "crossdressing" as a concept would be pretty hard to define if gender stereotypes didn't exist, let alone existing or not. If you actually managed to define "crossdressing" in a way that still made sense as a concept in a gender-role-less world, then I'd have to think about that particular definition.


Ok, fair point. Let me rephrase. If women's clothing did not carry connotations of weakness, docility, et al, and did not designate the wearer as a subject for male gaze, do you think that those who currently engage in crossdressing practices would continue to do so?

phlip wrote:But then I don't think that's particularly relevant to the topic at hand. Just saying "in a perfect world, x wouldn't happen" does not necessarily mean that forcing x to not happen will help cause a better world to come about... neither does it necessarily imply that x happening is harmful to moving toward a better world. Even if a completely gender-role-less world couldn't entertain crossdressing as a concept, that doesn't mean that crossdressing inherently supports gender roles. Come out as a result of them, sure, but so does every single action we make, good or bad... they're just that ingrained at present.


This is a massive cop-out. There isn't a direct causative link between crossdressing and sexism, no. However, if in the critical examination of the practice, we make sexist attitudes implicit in the practice more clear, that's productive, and an anticipated result of that would be for crossdressing to go away. Crossdressing subtly supports gender roles in the same way as gay marriage subtly supports cultural conservativism. The institution gains in strength what it loses in exclusivity. A female wearing a certain outfit and a male wearing a certain outfit are both perceived in a certain light, and when the male wears the outfit it only gains coherence by way of reference to the perceived qualities of the woman wearing the outfit. Similarly, gay marriage only takes on significance in reference to cultural assumptions about the qualities of heterosexual marriage. What appears to be progressive is actually horribly and insidiously regressive because it leaves these problematic institutions 100% intact and simply extends their reach, while simultaneously only giving that extended reach coherence by solidifying cultural assumptions regarding the point of reference by which they gain that coherence.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7542
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby phlip » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Ok, fair point. Let me rephrase. If women's clothing did not carry connotations of weakness, docility, et al, and did not designate the wearer as a subject for male gaze, do you think that those who currently engage in crossdressing practices would continue to do so?

No idea. I don't cross-dress, and I'm not super familiar with the motivations of those who do. If there's someone here who does, maybe they may or may not want to chime in... if not, then I'm not going to launch into hypotheticals here.

Brace wrote:This is a massive cop-out.

No, it isn't. It's me refuting the only argument you'd made in this thread at that point, which was "in magical perfect gender-role-less land, crossdressing wouldn't exist, therefore it's bad". Now that you've made more arguments, I can look at those.

Brace wrote:There isn't a direct causative link between crossdressing and sexism, no. However, if in the critical examination of the practice, we make sexist attitudes implicit in the practice more clear, that's productive, and an anticipated result of that would be for crossdressing to go away.

Sure. So, let's focus on that "if" - in critical examination of the practice, do sexist attitudes become clear?

Brace wrote:Crossdressing subtly supports gender roles in the same way as gay marriage subtly supports cultural conservativism.

Perhaps. But then, you won't find me arguing that gay marriage is a bad thing. Perhaps abolishing marriage altogether would be more ideal on some level, though this isn't really the place for that debate... but without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, marriage equality is a damn sight better than straight-only marriage. And I don't agree with your implicit assertion that the (in my estimation, very small) amount that the marriage equality fight more heavily embeds marriage into society outweighs the (in my estimation, substantial) gains that marriage equality brings.

And so too, to unravel the analogy... I claim that the amount that crossdressing-as-social-satire can reinforce gender roles by referencing them is negligible... sure, it's nonzero, but not back-breaking. But the upside is a lot bigger, in that it can shine the spotlight on those roles and hold them up for the ridicule they deserve.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:12 pm UTC

Sure. So, let's focus on that "if" - in critical examination of the practice, do sexist attitudes become clear?


In my mind they do, in the manner I explained.

Perhaps. But then, you won't find me arguing that gay marriage is a bad thing. Perhaps abolishing marriage altogether would be more ideal on some level, though this isn't really the place for that debate... but without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, marriage equality is a damn sight better than straight-only marriage. And I don't agree with your implicit assertion that the (in my estimation, very small) amount that the marriage equality fight more heavily embeds marriage into society outweighs the (in my estimation, substantial) gains that marriage equality brings.


So you think that things like tax breaks, hospital visitation rights, and the freedom to live and work in a country of your choosing should remain 100% embedded within the framework of marriage? Because those things are pretty substantial, and tying them to marriage is pretty horribly regressive. In this sort of situation, where the interests of many different groups are entangled, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good typically translates to actively harming the interests of some groups in order to benefit the interests of other groups. That's not acceptable.

And so too, to unravel the analogy... I claim that the amount that crossdressing-as-social-satire can reinforce gender roles by referencing them is negligible... sure, it's nonzero, but not back-breaking. But the upside is a lot bigger, in that it can shine the spotlight on those roles and hold them up for the ridicule they deserve.


It doesn't work as satire, for the reasons I explained in my second post. Additionally, what happens to non-passing transsexuals when a male-bodied person in women's clothing is viewed as inherently hilarious? Unlike with gay marriage, there is literally nothing transgressive or beneficial about crossdressing as far as the advancement of gender equality goes, and it also screws over a group of people who don't have the convenience of just walking away from certain things which get painted with a very unproductive brush as a result of crossdressing.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Xeio
Friends, Faidites, Countrymen
Posts: 5086
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:12 am UTC
Location: C:\Users\Xeio\
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Xeio » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

Brace wrote:It doesn't work as satire, for the reasons I explained in my second post. Additionally, what happens to non-passing transsexuals when a male-bodied person in women's clothing is viewed as inherently hilarious? Unlike with gay marriage, there is literally nothing transgressive or beneficial about crossdressing as far as the advancement of gender equality goes, and it also screws over a group of people who don't have the convenience of just walking away from certain things which get painted with a very unproductive brush as a result of crossdressing.
If cross dressing had an end goal, wouldn't it be not to attribute articles of clothing to any particular gender?

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Brace wrote:It doesn't work as satire, for the reasons I explained in my second post. Additionally, what happens to non-passing transsexuals when a male-bodied person in women's clothing is viewed as inherently hilarious? Unlike with gay marriage, there is literally nothing transgressive or beneficial about crossdressing as far as the advancement of gender equality goes, and it also screws over a group of people who don't have the convenience of just walking away from certain things which get painted with a very unproductive brush as a result of crossdressing.
If cross dressing had an end goal, wouldn't it be not to attribute articles of clothing to any particular gender?


Not really. If it did have one, it would be to disentangle gender from sex. Yet regressive gender constructs aren't destroyed in any way by crossdressing, they are lifted intact from existing culture and transposed to the male sex.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Xeio
Friends, Faidites, Countrymen
Posts: 5086
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:12 am UTC
Location: C:\Users\Xeio\
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Xeio » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:58 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Not really. If it did have one, it would be to disentangle gender from sex. Yet regressive gender constructs aren't destroyed in any way by crossdressing, they are lifted intact from existing culture and transposed to the male sex.
Except the ones that stigmatize wearing a particular type of clothing that isn't associated with your gender?

Thrasymachus
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:40 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

My little girl runs around pretending to be Superman and Batman all the time. She even wears her Superman/Batman costume while she does it. I must be subverting cultural values by allowing such deviant cross-dressing behavior. Not that I care. I'm hoping I can convince her little brother, when he's old enough to be convinced of such things, to play Wonder Woman. It'll be the keystone picture in my album of blackmail/embarrassment pics to run off future boy/girlfriends and coerce them into doing my I mean their chores.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Brace wrote:Not really. If it did have one, it would be to disentangle gender from sex. Yet regressive gender constructs aren't destroyed in any way by crossdressing, they are lifted intact from existing culture and transposed to the male sex.
Except the ones that stigmatize wearing a particular type of clothing that isn't associated with your gender?


Except those, which barely matter. Nobody is raped because their clothing signals a given gender, they're raped because their clothing is assumed to have other connotations. It's mostly narcissism to assume that the disentanglement of sex and gender has any implication beyond allowing dandies to have a broader range of aesthetics through which to worship themselves.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
TheGrammarBolshevik
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 am UTC
Location: Going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it.

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:49 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Nobody is raped because their clothing signals a given gender

Seriously?
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:17 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Brace wrote:Nobody is raped because their clothing signals a given gender

Seriously?


Yes. They're raped because their clothing makes them seem (to idiots, given the exact cultural biases being discussed) slutty or asking for it, not because it establishes that they're female. Please try to actually read the fucking words I am writing.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Weeks » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:24 pm UTC

From what I gather...the cartoon is not actually good. People who watched My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (distributed by the same company, also aired on The Hub) are telling me it's rather shallow. I'd have to watch the show to get an actual impression, but I don't feel encouraged.

So while the protest is rather misguided, SheZow seems like it is not really the best example of a progressive show either.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Quercus wrote:Agreed, but "constitutional fetishism" doesn't have that lovely alliteration between fetishism, first and fucking
rath358 wrote:I have been replaced D:

User avatar
TheGrammarBolshevik
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 am UTC
Location: Going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it.

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:36 pm UTC

Brace, I read your "fucking words," and you seem to be under the impression that crossdressers do not experience sexual violence or other serious forms of discrimination. This comes across in particular because Xeio asks about a stigma against people who "wear[] a particular type of clothing that isn't associated with [their] gender" and you said that those "don't matter" and that the gender-coding of clothing doesn't lead to sexual violence. I don't know, maybe I'm just not very good at reading fucking-words, or maybe you've just miscommunicated, but a handful of rereads still gives the distinct impression that you think stigmas against crossdressing do not matter and do not lead to sexual violence.
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:45 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Brace, I read your "fucking words," and you seem to be under the impression that crossdressers do not experience sexual violence or other serious forms of discrimination.


I don't see sexual violence as being a result of the gender-coded nature of the clothing they wear, although other forms of violence could easily be. They have the option of not wearing that clothing though, and generally speaking they exercise it regularly and only wear such clothing in very specific contexts. Granting that people are responsible for their actions and criminals should be held accountable for criminal acts, it is just harder for me to feel bad about a hobbyist getting hurt as a result of practicing their hobby than it is for me to feel badly about a genuine minority being hurt as a consequence of daring to exist in public. If I wore a fursuit in public and got beaten to death for it, I don't think that would be the same as if I were murdered for going out as I am currently dressed. Nor would the risk of being murdered in a fursuit even rank in my top 10 problems even if it were a fairly prevalent occurrence.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
TheAmazingRando
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am UTC
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby TheAmazingRando » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:11 pm UTC

elasto wrote:It's very odd. Don't these people understand that when women started wearing trousers, that was seen as 'cross-dressing' too. And yet would any of them blink at wearing trousers now? Do any of them think society is the worse for women being able to wear trousers or power suits or whatever?

Do they not see that they are feeding into the stereotype of 'maleness is 'strong'' - so it's 'ok' for women to aspire to act like men - and 'femaleness is 'weak'' - so it's not 'ok' for men to aspire to act like women.

And isn't that a far more destructive meme?
One Million Moms is part of the AFA, a far-right traditionalist Christian organization similar to Focus on the Family. I'd imagine they have many members who believe women should not wear pants, and who believe that strong men and submissive women is the dichotomy God intended.

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Weeks » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:21 pm UTC

Brace wrote:it is just harder for me to feel bad about a hobbyist getting hurt as a result of practicing their hobby than it is for me to feel badly about a genuine minority being hurt as a consequence of daring to exist in public
Who are you, and why do you get to define what a genuine minority is for everyone else?
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Quercus wrote:Agreed, but "constitutional fetishism" doesn't have that lovely alliteration between fetishism, first and fucking
rath358 wrote:I have been replaced D:

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10119
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Brace wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Brace, I read your "fucking words," and you seem to be under the impression that crossdressers do not experience sexual violence or other serious forms of discrimination.


I don't see sexual violence as being a result of the gender-coded nature of the clothing they wear, although other forms of violence could easily be. They have the option of not wearing that clothing though, and generally speaking they exercise it regularly and only wear such clothing in very specific contexts. Granting that people are responsible for their actions and criminals should be held accountable for criminal acts, it is just harder for me to feel bad about a hobbyist getting hurt as a result of practicing their hobby than it is for me to feel badly about a genuine minority being hurt as a consequence of daring to exist in public. If I wore a fursuit in public and got beaten to death for it, I don't think that would be the same as if I were murdered for going out as I am currently dressed. Nor would the risk of being murdered in a fursuit even rank in my top 10 problems even if it were a fairly prevalent occurrence.


Honestly, I don't see a big difference. Either way, dressing is causing no actual, demonstratable harm to anyone. If someone is getting killed for such things, we have a problem. The scope of this problem is directly proportional to the frequency with which it happens.

It doesn't really matter why a given fashion is out of the mainstream, or why the person elected to wear it. In either case, violence happening as a reaction to a non-harming choice is a severe concern.

User avatar
TheGrammarBolshevik
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 am UTC
Location: Going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it.

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:28 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:
Brace wrote:it is just harder for me to feel bad about a hobbyist getting hurt as a result of practicing their hobby than it is for me to feel badly about a genuine minority being hurt as a consequence of daring to exist in public
Who are you, and why do you get to define what a genuine minority is for everyone else?

Fashion police.
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:47 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Brace wrote:it is just harder for me to feel bad about a hobbyist getting hurt as a result of practicing their hobby than it is for me to feel badly about a genuine minority being hurt as a consequence of daring to exist in public
Who are you, and why do you get to define what a genuine minority is for everyone else?

Fashion police.


Try a human being with a functional brain.

Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, I don't see a big difference. Either way, dressing is causing no actual, demonstratable harm to anyone. If someone is getting killed for such things, we have a problem. The scope of this problem is directly proportional to the frequency with which it happens.

It doesn't really matter why a given fashion is out of the mainstream, or why the person elected to wear it. In either case, violence happening as a reaction to a non-harming choice is a severe concern.


It is a concern. The difference is, a crossdresser can make choices in the context of this problem which don't effect their quality of life in any serious way and which also minimize their exposure to harm. They can choose only to crossdress in the contexts where they receive the most enjoyment from it; in the bedroom, in gay safespaces, at BDSM events, and at other queer friendly events such as sci fi, anime, and furry conventions. Someone who can't control their visibility as a minority in public spaces can't minimize their exposure to harm in that way. My own response, for about 3 years, was just not to go outside except when necessary. Now I carry firearms and I'm actually able to go outside. Crossdressing is also a much more malleable behavior, as all fashion is malleable, so there is decidedly less urgency behind a crossdresser not being able to crossdress than there is behind the inability of most groups conventionally considered minorities to travel freely without fear of violence or to achieve other substantive ends that are important to them. I'm not contesting that murder is bad, or that the motives for violence towards the two groups are even different. Just, if you're in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean with some other people, and someone helicopters down to you, and gets into your boat, and they have a radio they can use to call the helicopter back at any time, and you get indignant about it and they say to you "Don't get angry, we're all in the same boat" while gushing about how romantic and exciting all of this is and asking you why you don't just radio your own helicopter whenever you express that it isn't, that person may be exposed to a fair amount of the same type of risk as you are and for the same essential reasons, but they're still a fucking asshole.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Telchar » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:53 pm UTC

Yeah, how dare those crossdressers not just stay contained to places you think they should be and get beaten up/murdered/sexually assaulted! What assholes!
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

User avatar
Zarq
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:29 pm UTC
Location: Third Rock from Earth's Yellow Sun

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Zarq » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:55 pm UTC

Brace wrote: They can choose only to crossdress in the contexts where they receive the most enjoyment from it; in the bedroom, in gay safespaces, at BDSM events, and at other queer friendly events such as sci fi, anime, and furry conventions. Someone who can't control their visibility as a minority in public spaces can't minimize their exposure to harm in that way.


Do gay people need to hold hands in public? They can choose to only display their orientation where they'll be safe. Can't they just do it at home or in gay safespaces?
You rang?

"It is better to shit yourself, than to die of constipation." - Some picture on reddit

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: "One Million Moms" protest new cartoon SheZow

Postby Brace » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
Brace wrote: They can choose only to crossdress in the contexts where they receive the most enjoyment from it; in the bedroom, in gay safespaces, at BDSM events, and at other queer friendly events such as sci fi, anime, and furry conventions. Someone who can't control their visibility as a minority in public spaces can't minimize their exposure to harm in that way.


Do gay people need to hold hands in public? They can choose to only display their orientation where they'll be safe. Can't they just do it at home or in gay safespaces?


Being gay is different. Public displays of affection are pretty spontaneous and natural. I'm not going to feel bad for somebody because they have to regulate what kinds of clothing they wear at specific places and times.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Eye of Horus and 7 guests