(Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape campaign

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(Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape campaign

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... ess-is-ok/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/11 ... f-revenge/

Recently, the Edmonton police service started an advertising campaign call "Don't Be That Guy," Which advise that sex without consent constitutes sexual assault.

A group called Men's Right Edmonton started their own campaign called "Don't Be That Girl", which suggests some women lie about being raped and that rape is over-reported.

The poster depicts attractive young women drinking in the company of young men, and has the caption: "Just because you regret a one-night stand doesn't mean it wasn't consensual."

...

Men's Rights Edmonton says the poster was meant to provoke discussion about false accusations and double standards.

"Nobody wants to see sexual assault happen, nobody wants to see rape happen, but we have to stop thinking of this as a gender problem," says a member, who would only identify himself as Raz.

"What poster like 'Don't be that guy' do is they essentially insert that if men are told not to rape, the rape, which is completely false."

"The presumption is out of the gate that you are probably guilty, and it's because of this misinformation that our society has become saturated with."

...

Karen Smith, executive director of the Sexual Assault Center of Edmonton, says she was saddened by the posters.

"I'm really disappointed that these people would decide not to recognize that there's a significant problem of sexual assault in our community," Smith said.

The Edmonton police says their campaign was meant to encourage victims of sexual assault to come foward.

"To demean these crimes goes against that and to belittle them goes against that," says acting Insp. Sean Armstrong.

Police says about one percent of sexual assault they investigate are found to have been fabricated.


on the comment article

The idea, needless to say, doesn’t make for delicate dinner party conversation. The notion of false accusations is often dismissed by rape-prevention advocates as a complete falsehood. Indeed, speaking with the CBC, executive director of the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton, Karen Smith, was eager to dismiss the message of the new posters as untrue.

“I want to make clear that that is so inaccurate,” she said. “It just doesn’t happen. Nobody would report sexual assault needlessly because it is a grueling process to go through.”

Actually, people would. And they do. Statistics show that false accusations of sexual assaults occur about as frequently as false accusations of other crimes — somewhere between two and four per cent. Granted, two per cent may seem like a paltry figure compared to the number of legitimate claims (and the majority that are left unreported), but to those falsely accused, it is no insignificant matter.

There are countless stories of innocent lives being derailed by illegitimate accusations, including a recent story of a woman who made five false rape accusations in the past few years. One of the most high-profile cases, however, is that of Atlanta Falcons linebacker Brian Banks. Banks was poised to attend the University of Southern California in 2002 on a football scholarship when a classmate, Wanetta Gibson, accused him of sexual assault. Faced with the prospect of more than 40 years in prison, Banks took a plea and spent five years in jail. Fortunately, Banks was eventually able to clear his name, but there are undoubtedly other innocent men currently serving time for assaults they didn’t commit. The new posters around Edmonton inadvertently bring attention to their plight.


The concept proved itself in April when Postmedia’s Christie Blatchford wrote about the tragic case of Nova Scotia teen Rehtaeh Parsons, who committed suicide after months of bullying stemming from an alleged gang rape. In her report, Blatchford detailed the prosecutorial challenges that had faced investigators looking at the alleged rape, which included conflicting reports from Parsons, an ambiguous photo of the scene and an eyewitness account that the sex may have been consensual. While the merit of these claims are, indeed, debatable, the mere mention of their consideration was enough to incite public fury. Blatchford was called a traitor to women, a rape-apologist and a slut-shamer — the takeaway being that any and all accusations of assault must be treated as fact, no questions asked.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

I think when these campaigns are as/more concerned with how false rape accusations hurt other rape victims, than they are concerned with how they hurt the falsely accused, we'll see some actual traction in their legitimacy or our willingness to take them seriously.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:19 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think when these campaigns are as/more concerned with how false rape accusations hurt other rape victims, than they are concerned with how they hurt the falsely accused, we'll see some actual traction in their legitimacy or our willingness to take them seriously.
Oh, man. Dealing with the potential damage false accusations can cause -- actually addressing the issue -- is as rare as hen's teeth. I mean, yeah, the poster there isn't about so much as creating a dialogue as it is mocking women. Which is a real shame, because I could totally see this being a thing we should talk about!

I mean, I'm not really fond of the 'Don't Be That Guy' message, but note what it's doing -- it's creating a narrative where you can not be that guy -- by just being more careful and more aware. Look at the poster that they put up in response -- there's no way to not be that woman except to, y'know. Stop saying you were raped.

It's incredibly frustrating just how often an opportunity for real dialogue is wasted by framing this sort of thing antagonistically.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

I was the victim of a false attempted rape accusation. The police were called in to investigate, and luckily asked around before arresting, because she was lying. Apparently she sobbed to the school counselor about having a crush on me or something to avoid getting in trouble, because apparently they thought she had a crush on me. Despite having a boyfriend at the time and treating me like absolute shit for the year.

It all started when I called her out on it halfway through. The teacher was an absolute dick and treated me like shit too, and while he (and everyone else) laughed, he basically told me off at the end and the girl was back to abusing me the next week.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:34 pm UTC

FYI, the paper reporting this is Canada's equivalent of Fox News, so the commentary might be a bit slanted.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby philsov » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

...both groups are right. Where's the issue?

It's not mutually exclusive. No one should rape. No one should falsely accuse another of rape. All rape victims should come forward.

I'll agree with izawwl, though. It would be more effective for the MRA's to focus on how false accusations damage other victims rather than the accused.

I'm not really fond of the 'Don't Be That Guy' message, but note what it's doing -- it's creating a narrative where you can not be that guy. Look at the poster that they put up in response -- there's no way to not be that woman except to, y'know. Stop saying you were raped.


Or by taking that poster at face value -- don't take even moderate drunkenness as being clear of all responsibility. Which, while rare, does occur. On both the smaller scales and in cases such as rape.

Looking through google images of the Guy posters, over half of them involve scenarios where the girl is literally drunk, wasted, or passed out. While getting waaaaay too drunk and then raped is never the fault of the victim, at the same time, the rape can be prevented by less binge drinking, yes?
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

philsov wrote:Or by taking that poster at face value -- don't take even moderate drunkenness as being clear of all responsibility. Which, while rare, does occur. On both the smaller scales and in cases such as rape.

Looking through google images of the Guy posters, over half of them involve scenarios where the girl is literally drunk, wasted, or passed out. While getting waaaaay too drunk and then raped is never the fault of the victim, at the same time, the rape can be prevented by less binge drinking, yes?
Ugh, no. The degree to which your responsibility 'fluctuates' upon imbibing booze is immaterial to this. This is about how people feel about their bodies, actions, and states-of-mind.

When I drink a glass of champagne, I do not lose 0.03 responsibility points. This is about being careful -- working with people to make sure no one feels regretful after-the-fact. Talking about this issue as if anyone genuinely believes a drink absolves you of all responsibilities re: maintaining your sense of consent (which is what the poster posits; that there are people out there who think that, once I've sipped a bottle of champagne, I am no longer responsible for my actions) completely misses the mark. These posters do nothing but make positive dialogue harder. They're just an example of strawmanning people you disagree with.

Here's the discussion we should be having: How best should we behave so that no one feels regret over what they did Last Nighttm? And if they do feel regret, how should we then proceed?

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:12 pm UTC

One of the few times I found myself agreeing with Hippo. Strange times indeed.

I just feel obligated to post on my own topic in regards to a person's ability to consent under the influence to alcholo.

This was stolen on one of the article's comment section, which I find very useful (and should be a rule of thumb):

Oh come on. I'm a guy, and I've had sex with intoxicated women without being charged with rape. You want an educational campaign? Here it is...
1. Learn the difference between tipsy and black out drunk. Pro Tip: If she can't talk and keeps falling over and puking, she's beyond tipsy. Also, if she keeps passing out or 'falling asleep', now is not the time.
2. When giving her a ride back to your/her place, if she goes unconscious and you can't wake her up, she is not DTF......take her to the hospital to get her stomach pumped as she probably has alcohol poisoning. Get her number if you really want to, but tonight is not the night bro.
3. If things are progressing nicely and she exhibits any of the following behaviours; crying uncontrollably, talking about her husband/boyfriend, wanting to find her friends immediately, asking what your name is for the third time, or asking you if you know what the number for the taxi is........tonight is not the night.
4. If she says any of the following; I really shouldn't.....this isn't really my kind of thing.....I know I'm going to regret this later...... well, it's probably not the night.
.
If you aren't sure, the answer is no. Ask for her number so you can call her later. Offer to take her out for a late dinner/early breakfast, depending on what time it is. Tell her that you think she's really nice and you don't want to mess anything up by acting rashly tonight but you're free tomorrow or next weekend.
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I've found that my life is immensely better when I don't have sex with women that I don't know, or if there's any doubt in my mind about her really wanting to have sex with me. Call me crazy, call me old fashioned, I don't care, it's just how I am.


Another comment on the article:

If an under aged male is raped by an older woman and she becomes pregnant then (even though the child was conceived out of a crime) when the male becomes an adult he has to pay her child support. It has already happened… the door only swings one way.


Just wondering if the above statement is true?

LaserGuy wrote:FYI, the paper reporting this is Canada's equivalent of Fox News, so the commentary might be a bit slanted.


Slightly OT: While The National Post is slanted right in terms of their political views, I find that generally their article is at least well researched, backed by sources and facts, and have way more reporting integrity then those newspapers on the left side of the political spectrum in Canada. They are also less 'right-wing' then Fox News.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby jseah » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:18 pm UTC

Do you think that perhaps we are tackling a sub-problem here? The overall problem (which is not necessarily easily solvable) appears to me to be our culture.

Now let me explain that. I don't say that the use of force to obtain certain actions from other people isn't wrong. It is wrong and should be punished.
But rape victims certainly appear to suffer far more than victims of other crimes where force is used to coerce behaviours (eg. robbery, kidnapping, human trafficking) and similar social scenarios (eg. bullying, gangs). My thinking is that this could be partially or even wholly a cultural effect. Perhaps we might work towards making the human body less of an important thing to people's identity and perceived cultural value (and thus less psychologically damaging when compromised).

Are we working towards reducing the effect that these sorts of crimes have on people? Perhaps we may eventually become a society where rape is punished commensurately with the physical and financial damage it causes, the same as other violent crimes.
Of course, this is not to say that we shouldn't be working on reducing the incidence, but perhaps we could also work on mitigation.

Even if it requires a change in the human condition, I don't see why we should not be willing to change as a people to dampen the effect.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby sigsfried » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:19 pm UTC

Just wondering if the above statement is true?


There were a few recent cases that seemed to conclude that. The problem fundamentally is that child support is about providing adequately for the child and doesn't really care about whatever relationship the adults have. Otherwise you end up punishing the child for being the product of rape.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:33 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
If an under aged male is raped by an older woman and she becomes pregnant then (even though the child was conceived out of a crime) when the male becomes an adult he has to pay her child support. It has already happened… the door only swings one way.


Just wondering if the above statement is true?


It looks like the answer is conditionally "yes". Child support is a right of the child, not a right of the parent, and the child is essentially an innocent in the affair. If she's been convicted of rape though, he can probably win custody, and, if so, can then get child support from her.

Gonna spoil the OT section about the reporting...

Spoiler:
Nylonathatep wrote:Slightly OT: While The National Post is slanted right in terms of their political views, I find that generally their article is at least well researched, backed by sources and facts, and have way more reporting integrity then those newspapers on the left side of the political spectrum in Canada. They are also less 'right-wing' then Fox News.


I don't find the quality of research in the Post to be significantly better than other news outlets with similar resources, and a good deal worse than several others. They're probably about on par with the Globe and Mail now (the Globe used to be better but has degraded in quality a lot in the passed 5-10 years, IMHO), and the persistent bias in the Post is a lot more notable than in pretty much any other major paper except maybe the Star. The only paper in Canada I've found to consistently punch above its weight in terms of quality reporting is the Ottawa Citizen.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby jseah » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:39 pm UTC

sigsfried wrote:
Just wondering if the above statement is true?


There were a few recent cases that seemed to conclude that. The problem fundamentally is that child support is about providing adequately for the child and doesn't really care about whatever relationship the adults have. Otherwise you end up punishing the child for being the product of rape.

If that was the case, the male victim should have the option to fight for custody of the child (with a proportionally higher chance of winning, the same way a divorce proceeding would favour the wronged party) and make the woman pay child support in reverse (with the same conditions, I suppose child support is a percentage of income so unemployed people don't pay?).

Perhaps allow underaged victims to defer custody or just be totally exempt since it seems ridiculously unfair. (imagine a man rapes an underage girl, she gets pregnant but for whatever reason (eg. being catholic) bears the child to term and gives custody to the man; are we seriously going to argue she should pay child support when she gets a job? That seems wrong on so many levels)
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

jseah wrote:If that was the case, the male victim should have the option to fight for custody of the child (with a proportionally higher chance of winning, the same way a divorce proceeding would favour the wronged party) and make the woman pay child support in reverse (with the same conditions, I suppose child support is a percentage of income so unemployed people don't pay?).

Perhaps allow underaged victims to defer custody or just be totally exempt since it seems ridiculously unfair. (imagine a man rapes an underage girl, she gets pregnant but for whatever reason (eg. being catholic) bears the child to term and gives custody to the man; are we seriously going to argue she should pay child support when she gets a job? That seems wrong on so many levels)


Given the chance of success with the current child's custody battle, as well as the fact that the female is most likely better financially then the younger male... I doubt that the legal battle for the child's custody in such situation would be successful.

On Quality of News reporting:

Spoiler:
Laserguy wrote:I don't find the quality of research in the Post to be significantly better than other news outlets with similar resources, and a good deal worse than several others. They're probably about on par with the Globe and Mail now (the Globe used to be better but has degraded in quality a lot in the passed 5-10 years, IMHO), and the persistent bias in the Post is a lot more notable than in pretty much any other major paper except maybe the Star. The only paper in Canada I've found to consistently punch above its weight in terms of quality reporting is the Ottawa Citizen.


I live in the Toronto area, and the four major newspapers are G&M, Toronto Star, Toronto Sun, and National Post. Toronto Sun is less informative and slanted extremely right... at least the National Post occassionally critizes the government in power. I do agree thou that In comparison to the Toronto Star, the National Post is less bias and relies less on sensationalism.
Last edited by Nylonathatep on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:23 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Arancaytar » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:07 pm UTC

The poster depicts attractive young women drinking in the company of young men, and has the caption: "Just because you regret a one-night stand doesn't mean it wasn't consensual."


The reasoning that consuming a drug that inhibits the ability to consent constitutes consent is somewhat difficult to follow.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby K-R » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:41 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
jseah wrote:If that was the case, the male victim should have the option to fight for custody of the child (with a proportionally higher chance of winning, the same way a divorce proceeding would favour the wronged party) and make the woman pay child support in reverse (with the same conditions, I suppose child support is a percentage of income so unemployed people don't pay?).

Perhaps allow underaged victims to defer custody or just be totally exempt since it seems ridiculously unfair. (imagine a man rapes an underage girl, she gets pregnant but for whatever reason (eg. being catholic) bears the child to term and gives custody to the man; are we seriously going to argue she should pay child support when she gets a job? That seems wrong on so many levels)


Given the chance of success with the current child's custody battle, as well as the fact that the female is most likely better financially then the younger male... I doubt that the legal battle for the child's custody in such situation would be successful.

Not to mention it assumes the guy would want to raise the kid in the first place.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Telchar » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:57 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
The concept proved itself in April when Postmedia’s Christie Blatchford wrote about the tragic case of Nova Scotia teen Rehtaeh Parsons, who committed suicide after months of bullying stemming from an alleged gang rape. In her report, Blatchford detailed the prosecutorial challenges that had faced investigators looking at the alleged rape, which included conflicting reports from Parsons, an ambiguous photo of the scene and an eyewitness account that the sex may have been consensual. While the merit of these claims are, indeed, debatable, the mere mention of their consideration was enough to incite public fury. Blatchford was called a traitor to women, a rape-apologist and a slut-shamer — the takeaway being that any and all accusations of assault must be treated as fact, no questions asked.


It's just your run of the mill file drawer effect. People right stories about people being exonerated that go on to get chances to be on pro football teams. They don't write stories about the guy who raped that girl and is serving 15 years in prison and is totally guilty.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby sigsfried » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:51 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
Nylonathatep wrote:
jseah wrote:If that was the case, the male victim should have the option to fight for custody of the child (with a proportionally higher chance of winning, the same way a divorce proceeding would favour the wronged party) and make the woman pay child support in reverse (with the same conditions, I suppose child support is a percentage of income so unemployed people don't pay?).

Perhaps allow underaged victims to defer custody or just be totally exempt since it seems ridiculously unfair. (imagine a man rapes an underage girl, she gets pregnant but for whatever reason (eg. being catholic) bears the child to term and gives custody to the man; are we seriously going to argue she should pay child support when she gets a job? That seems wrong on so many levels)


Given the chance of success with the current child's custody battle, as well as the fact that the female is most likely better financially then the younger male... I doubt that the legal battle for the child's custody in such situation would be successful.

Not to mention it assumes the guy would want to raise the kid in the first place.


I suppose there is no good choice, but I suppose at least in the case of the underage girl being raped she would have the choice both to intervene and stop the pregenancy or to put the child up for adoption. I am not saying these are easy choices and I am glad they are choices I would never have to make but at least she would have the choice and I doubt any court would give custody of a child to a child rapist.

Maybe the solution is to make children raised by only one parent attract a sufficient grant to cover upbringing, but that seems to easy on men who just abandon their children. Plus of course it would be expensive.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:54 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:
The poster depicts attractive young women drinking in the company of young men, and has the caption: "Just because you regret a one-night stand doesn't mean it wasn't consensual."


The reasoning that consuming a drug that inhibits the ability to consent constitutes consent is somewhat difficult to follow.


I do believe that most, if not everyone in this thread believe the message in the poster was wrong. No arguments here.

Telchar wrote:It's just your run of the mill file drawer effect. People right stories about people being exonerated that go on to get chances to be on pro football teams. They don't write stories about the guy who raped that girl and is serving 15 years in prison and is totally guilty.


Actually the lesson here is that one shouldn't automatically jump to conclusions when it comes to anything, including incidents of rape. In the above part of the article, Postmedia’s Christie Blatchford was just deliverying factual information that may suggest that the encounter maybe have been consensual. Given the fact that the investigation is still ongoing, It would be a tragedy if a rape really hasn't taken and the people involved were falsely accused and was convicted of a crime they didn't commit, would it not?

Also, there's definately stories of convicted rapist in the media. After all, rape is a serious crime.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Telchar » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:20 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:
Telchar wrote:It's just your run of the mill file drawer effect. People right stories about people being exonerated that go on to get chances to be on pro football teams. They don't write stories about the guy who raped that girl and is serving 15 years in prison and is totally guilty.


Actually the lesson here is that one shouldn't automatically jump to conclusions when it comes to anything, including incidents of rape. In the above part of the article, Postmedia’s Christie Blatchford was just deliverying factual information that may suggest that the encounter maybe have been consensual. Given the fact that the investigation is still ongoing, It would be a tragedy if a rape really hasn't taken and the people involved were falsely accused and was convicted of a crime they didn't commit, would it not?

Also, there's definately stories of convicted rapist in the media. After all, rape is a serious crime.


Right, except that's not what the file drawer effect is. It's a term, usually referencing research, where studies aren't published that don't invalidate the null hypothesis. In that same vein, reporters don't go into prison and write about rapists serving their 15 years, they write about people who are exonerated because that's a better story, and so that's the one you remember. It even mentions in the article that the incidence of false rape reports is no higher than for any other crime. We just think there are more of them because of the file drawer effect.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Nylonathatep » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:04 am UTC

Telchar wrote:Right, except that's not what the file drawer effect is. It's a term, usually referencing research, where studies aren't published that don't invalidate the null hypothesis. In that same vein, reporters don't go into prison and write about rapists serving their 15 years, they write about people who are exonerated because that's a better story, and so that's the one you remember. It even mentions in the article that the incidence of false rape reports is no higher than for any other crime. We just think there are more of them because of the file drawer effect.


I do agree with you on that point that news reports gave attention to eye-catching stories that'll sell. In fact that's probably why the linked article gave out the stats on report of false rape is between 2% - 4% and is not significantly higher in comparison to any other crime, just to put everything into perspective. Again, I doubt anyone here thinks that there's more falsely reported rape crime, just the fact that false reporting rape crime do exist like any other crime. Furthermore, like any other falsely accused of any crime, it is a social issue that should be addressed, instead of saying that such issue doesn't exist, like executive director of the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton, Karen Smith did.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Belial » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:22 am UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:instead of saying that such issue doesn't exist, like executive director of the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton, Karen Smith did.


Oh you unutterable...

She said no such thing. This entire thread is shit-stirring on your part, the least you can do is avoid gilding this excrement-crusted lily by inserting random lies into the middle of the argument.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:28 am UTC

Well, to be fair:
Karen Smith wrote:I want to make it clear that that is so inaccurate. It just doesn’t happen.

...

Nobody would report sexual assault needlessly because it is a gruelling process to go through.
I'd like to see the full quote in context, but that does seem to be pretty straightforward. Presuming 'needlessly' and 'falsely' can be taken, in this context, to be synonymous.

Not that the opinion of one person regarding this changes the landscape that much, but -- assuming that quote isn't being misleadingly taken out context! -- she did seem to say that thing.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Belial » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:36 am UTC

I can pretty much guarantee that's in response to the perception, on the part of MRAs, that there is a tide of these bloody things. A big problem of them that needs to be dealt with.

And no. The false accusation rate is, once again, on par with other crimes. Which means focusing on the false accusation rate (trivial) as opposed to the occurence of the crime itself (overwhelming) is foolish. And if the first thing you do when confronted by attempts to resolve the latter is start whining about the former as though they were equivalent problems, you are a wankstain. And no one for a second believes that you actually care about the issue.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:44 am UTC

Belial wrote:I can pretty much guarantee that's in response to the perception, on the part of MRAs, that there is a tide of these bloody things. A big problem of them that needs to be dealt with.

And no. The false accusation rate is, once again, on par with other crimes. Which means focusing on the false accusation rate (trivial) as opposed to the occurence of the crime itself (overwhelming) is foolish. And if the first thing you do when confronted by attempts to resolve the latter is start whining about the former as though they were equivalent problems, you are a wankstain. And no one for a second believes that you actually care about the issue.



I know I'm not going to win any friends on this point, but the false accusation for rape is slightly higher than for other crimes for an ugly reason; divorces and family court. If a divorce has to make it all the way to family court, expect things to get ugly. And when custody is involved, people will pull any dirty trick they think of to keep their kids.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:45 am UTC

Belial wrote:I can pretty much guarantee that's in response to the perception, on the part of MRAs, that there is a tide of these bloody things. A big problem of them that needs to be dealt with.

And no. The false accusation rate is, once again, on par with other crimes. Which means focusing on the false accusation rate (trivial) as opposed to the occurence of the crime itself (overwhelming) is foolish. And if the first thing you do when confronted by attempts to resolve the latter is start whining about the former as though they were equivalent problems, you are a wankstain. And no one for a second believes that you actually care about the issue.
Fair enough, but the statement 'False accusation rates are incredibly low' is distinctly different from the statement 'False accusation rates are exactly zero'. The above quote implies the latter; not the former.

Just sayin'. Lady did seem to say that thing you think she didn't say. Maybe she meant it to be taken another way, and if so, I can sympathize! -- But words are words. They mean what they mean.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:52 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I was the victim of a false attempted rape accusation. The police were called in to investigate, and luckily asked around before arresting, because she was lying. Apparently she sobbed to the school counselor about having a crush on me or something to avoid getting in trouble, because apparently they thought she had a crush on me. Despite having a boyfriend at the time and treating me like absolute shit for the year.

It all started when I called her out on it halfway through. The teacher was an absolute dick and treated me like shit too, and while he (and everyone else) laughed, he basically told me off at the end and the girl was back to abusing me the next week.


False accusations in general are terrible. False rape accusations, false murder accusations, any major violent crime. Can cost people jobs, ruin their lives, etc. It is a shame that they happen, and yes, those who perpetuate them should be called to account.

Notice that I did not say "women who perpetuate them should be called to account". Reacting to gender bias by adding a different gender bias is not balanced or just. Rape or false accusations are wrong regardless of gender. Campaigns against BOTH need not rely on gender. The opposite of a particular bit of stupidity is not guaranteed to be wisdom. Neither problem is solved by making it out to be a battle between sexes.

LaserGuy wrote:
Nylonathatep wrote:
If an under aged male is raped by an older woman and she becomes pregnant then (even though the child was conceived out of a crime) when the male becomes an adult he has to pay her child support. It has already happened… the door only swings one way.


Just wondering if the above statement is true?


It looks like the answer is conditionally "yes". Child support is a right of the child, not a right of the parent, and the child is essentially an innocent in the affair. If she's been convicted of rape though, he can probably win custody, and, if so, can then get child support from her.


The idea that being raped should entirely dominate your life(and yes, being responsible for a child is kind of major) is repugnant to me. Forcing him to either pay or get custody even if rape is proved is just wild. Look, if the mom is a rapist, and the dad doesn't want custody, then seriously, put the kid up for adoption or make him a ward of the state. Get the kid out of that terrible situation instead of forcing the victim to deal with it.

Seriously, rape is one of the best cases to argue for the right to abortion for the mother. Now, we can't reasonably allow dads to force abortions on women, but we do need SOME protection for rape victims who don't want to be a parent yet.

Belial, I would not consider a 2-4% false accusation rate to be trivial. Yes, it is not out of proportion to other crimes. Yes, it's smaller than the original problem of rape. Still, it affects significant numbers of people, and has the potential to ruin lives. I don't think trivializing it is the answer here. In fact, I don't think that opposing rape and opposing false accusations are options that need oppose each other at all. We can honestly be against both, and do so without turning into raving sexists.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Belial » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:05 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I know I'm not going to win any friends on this point, but the false accusation for rape is slightly higher than for other crimes for an ugly reason; divorces and family court. If a divorce has to make it all the way to family court, expect things to get ugly. And when custody is involved, people will pull any dirty trick they think of to keep their kids.


And? People lie transparently in custody cases. News at 8.

The Great Hippo wrote:Fair enough, but the statement 'False accusation rates are incredibly low' is distinctly different from the statement 'False accusation rates are exactly zero'. The above quote implies the latter; not the former.


And I missed that she said anything of the sort. I stand by the idea that pretending this is a big issue is blatantly and transparently bullshit. Nobody responds to literally any other crime with the kneejerk "but what about false accusations aren't those the real issue here" wankery. Because in order to be worth commenting on, it would need to be bigger than the background noise of false accusations for any other crime.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:59 am UTC

With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim. With murder, there's a corpse - sure, maybe it was an accident, maybe it was suicide, but claiming the defendant didn't do it doesn't mean "there isn't even a dead body!" With theft, something's missing. Sure, maybe the victim isn't a victim and they just buried the object in the backyard and said someone stole it. But claiming the defendant didn't steal it doesn't mean "what are you talking about, "theft", you still have that thing!" If an individual named the defendant, they're implied to be a liar in an argument for the defendant's innocence, but there's no implication a crime didn't even occur - it's just an argument that "someone else did it."
But with a rape case, arguing that the defendant is innocent *cannot be done* without claiming the plaintiff is liar. Either the victim is telling the truth and the defendant is a rapist, or the defendant isn't a rapist and the victim *isn't a victim* and *is a liar.*

Claiming false accusations don't happen is ... well, it's flat out bullshit. Fighting rape and fighting false rape accusations don't need to be mutually exclusive. I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue. That fact does not make it acceptable, helpful, or reasonable to make such an outlandish claim that all accusations of rape are true. (Those were NOT Smith's exact words, but it must be the case if we start from the position she seems to have - if false accusations don't happen, all accusations are true.)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2013/07/09/edmonton-sexual-assault-posters.html wrote:I want to make it clear that that is so inaccurate,” said Karen Smith, executive director of the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton. “It just doesn’t happen.

Nobody would report sexual assault needlessly because it is a gruelling process to go through.


This woman would. And did!
Last edited by Princess Marzipan on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:05 am UTC

Only if you accept the law of excluded middle, fascist.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby jseah » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:10 am UTC

Thing about fairness to the child, we can look at it this way:
1. A case of rape leads to pregnancy and the child is carried to term, does the parent without custody have to pay child support?
2. A one-night stand (consensual) leads to pregnancy and the child is carried to term, does the parent without custody have to pay child support?

Following the logic about fairness to the child, the answer to both questions should be the same. The first thing to ask, of course, is are they?

Perhaps the easiest way to dodge the unfairness resulting from the victims of rape having to pay child support is to have all pregnancies resulting from rape be aborted provided it is medically sound. But I can imagine some people screaming bloody murder about that.

Tyndmyr wrote:Seriously, rape is one of the best cases to argue for the right to abortion for the mother. Now, we can't reasonably allow dads to force abortions on women, but we do need SOME protection for rape victims who don't want to be a parent yet.

In the case of the woman raping the underaged boy, I don't really see why not. Seems perfectly fair to have the decision of whether to keep a child be the decision of the victim of a rape.
Provided the abortion would be a medically sound procedure that does not endanger the life of the woman and other relevant caveats...
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:31 am UTC

The problem with allowing/forcing abortions only in rape cases is that you will have a pretty big incentive to lie about rape in order to get/force an abortion. Better to always allow abortions, though not sure on the forcing side...

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:39 am UTC

Also, the whole "Thou shalt not perform invasive, nonconsensual medical procedures" thing.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby jseah » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:01 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The problem with allowing/forcing abortions only in rape cases is that you will have a pretty big incentive to lie about rape in order to get/force an abortion. Better to always allow abortions, though not sure on the forcing side...

Oh, yeah, that's true. =(

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:11 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if you accept the law of excluded middle, fascist.
Please, present any possible alternatives you can think of, communist.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:48 am UTC

ok. A subject near and dear to my Heart.
I want to write something before I read it written by others.

Both Men and Women deserve to be Treated with Dignity.

I think the Men may have a Point.
If it is Time to talk about That Guy.
Then it is Time to talk about That Girl.

That Girl? Who is That Girl?
Honey. Maybe it would be nice to have a conversation before going to Sex with a person.

They might be Correct.
Yes. We are Talking about Knocking The Romance out of our Wine and Rose filled youths.

Write it Down! That is so stupid.

Yet; How else can a Man and/or a Woman ....ech.
This is difficult. Men and Women must be able to be Safe with one another.

How do we Get There from Here? We? Is a problem I have?
It is a problem We have. What are we Thinking?!

We think the way Animals Think.
Only; Worse.

We have the capacity for Premeditated BullShit that few other Animals have.
That is The Bad News.
We have the capacity to Premeditate our own Honor and Dignity that few other Animals have.
That is The Good News.

We can Train ourselves to be Honorable and Trustworthy.
Some of us can and some of us can't.

We need many more That Can than Can't.
Women can be Honorable. It may be Rare as Hen's Teeth, still it Happens.
Men have a Long History of Codes of Honor. Women?

Do Women have Codes of Honor?
Nurses. But; Those are half Men.

Who else? Women? Who wants to Pick on Women?
Rape and Sexual Assualt happen.

More Open discussion can Not hurt, much.
Yes. Men! Hell-o! That Girl is Out There!
Be Careful!

Trigger and Trigger, again.
Don't open this. I don't know what will be in there, yet.

It will be True. It might be Real Ugly.
Spoiler:
She may be worse than you think she is.
I met that Girl. She was Not a Girl.

She was an Adult. In her thirties.
She was Staying in My Guest House.

The year was 2004-2005.
What was Going On?

There were People and More People.
Then; Poof.

It was Like Jimmy Buffett's The Coast is Clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIVVEvKOOgc

Yet; Things were not Peaceful.
I was Worried one Night.

I was Up Late waiting for Someone.
The Guests came In; The Guests went Out.

I watched or did not watch.
Some were more fun than others.

I like people. The Guest House was Homey.
That Girl was staying in The Large Room Downstairs.

She had been there for Weeks.
I liked her. We did things together.
Talking and Picnics and Off to Peace Rallies.

I like Most people.
That One Night I Was Up Late.
I am Boring; Remember.

When That Girl came in She was a Happy Girl.
She was about half-drunk, happily winded and Draging some of her clothes.

That seemed Normal to me.
Some people come in at Night happily winded, dragging some of their clothes, half-drunk with blackberry vines in their hair.
I am glad they are Happy.

She was Happy and wanted to Share.
That is also Normal.

Some of the Things people will get up to.
(shakes head and thinks of the time I fell into the blackberries attempting to pee in the Night along the river. My cousins laughed. It was a story I wanted to tell my Aunt.)
This Woman was a That Girl on Steroids.

We have varing ages of people reading this Forum.
That Woman told me about what she had been doing and how much fun it was.

She Liked Sex. We had talked about Sex. Women talk about Sex a lot to one another.
She Liked Sex and she was extra special Happy.

She had a List of Men.
The way I understood it, she was getting Paid and she was having Fun.

I did not read The Contract. It could not have been a Legal Contract.
It is not possible to enforce payment for Illegal Services. Is it?

What was Illegal? Nothing. Maybe.
She was Suducing Men for Pay.

No. The men she had Sex with did not pay her.
Someone else did. Your Government?

It was US money. She was in the US.
I was in The US at the time, too.

The men were Victims. In So many ways The Man of The Night was such a Victim.
I was stunned. The person I was waiting for did not come Home.

I listened to That Woman who is a That Girl for a while.
Then she went Happily Off to Bed.

What did I hear?
She was getting paid per each man on her list.
Some, like the Man of The Night, were Married.

Some were worth more than Others.
If she were able to infect her Sex Partner with Herpies;
Then Bonus!

Really. She had been infected for a Long Time.
She had learned to Live with it.

She knew how to infect another person.
The details of When she Told Him are not fit for General Audinces.

She waited until he was.... Damn!
She was able to look at me and say,
"I told him. He consented. I told him. (she was laughing. his helplessness was funny to her)

I was not clear on The Details.
If she were able to infect The Man she got paid, Bonus.

I was so saddened. I sat looking at the FirePlace for a long time.
The Person I was waiting for did not come Home.

Yes. These are difficult times for Many.
That Poor Man. She had Tools.

Did I tell you about The Tools?
I know about Tools.
I like Tools.

Special Little Tools.
Men are all Famous for Date Rape Drugs.

Well; I Would Like with Great Fan Fare to Introduce To You, !THE WOMEN!

There is nothing one side can use the other side can not use.
The proper Tool for The Job. That is What The Wise Men say.

If all you have is a Hammer, then a hammer will be tried.
She had Date Rape Drugs. She was Hunting Men.

She Bagged a few, too.

What happened to That Man?
I don't know. His civic career was over.

She and he met during some Political Dinner Party or Peace Rally.
jeeze. He was a nice man. I met him.
His Life took a turn toward the Weird.


Men! Do Not be That Guy.
Please, do not be That Guy.

What can you do to protect Yourself?
Condoms. That will Help.

If She does Not want to meet your Mother, Sister, Wife? Well; See?
I am not a prude. Still; The Rules that were in Place for So Long were Not handed down by a Stupid God.
They were Rules that helped with Happiness.

Remember; It has not been Long sense No STD was effectively treatable.

Sex with Strangers is Fine and Dandy.
It is the Acquaintance one must be wary of?

That Woman knew That Man.

Spoiler:
Men that are Married in Monogmous relationships are more At Risk of STD than Others.
It makes sense. Inside a Monogamous Marriage a man gets used to unprotected Sex.


As we have this conversation, Remember;
It has not been long sense No STD was effectively treatable.

The Old Ways did protect from Raging STD epidemics. (Hell-0 Paris!)

Today we do have Treatments for STD.
We can cure Most and we can treat all.

Men and Women are Both Victimized.
It is Humiliating for Men, too.

He wanted to. He wanted to.
He sits and stares out of the window and Remembers wanting to.


I hope his Marriage Survived. Who Runs for Office?
Men who are Pure as The Driven Snow?

It is brutal out there. Be Careful!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:58 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim. With murder, there's a corpse - sure, maybe it was an accident, maybe it was suicide, but claiming the defendant didn't do it doesn't mean "there isn't even a dead body!" With theft, something's missing. Sure, maybe the victim isn't a victim and they just buried the object in the backyard and said someone stole it. But claiming the defendant didn't steal it doesn't mean "what are you talking about, "theft", you still have that thing!" If an individual named the defendant, they're implied to be a liar in an argument for the defendant's innocence, but there's no implication a crime didn't even occur - it's just an argument that "someone else did it."
But with a rape case, arguing that the defendant is innocent *cannot be done* without claiming the plaintiff is liar. Either the victim is telling the truth and the defendant is a rapist, or the defendant isn't a rapist and the victim *isn't a victim* and *is a liar.*

Claiming false accusations don't happen is ... well, it's flat out bullshit. Fighting rape and fighting false rape accusations don't need to be mutually exclusive. I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue. That fact does not make it acceptable, helpful, or reasonable to make such an outlandish claim that all accusations of rape are true. (Those were NOT Smith's exact words, but it must be the case if we start from the position she seems to have - if false accusations don't happen, all accusations are true.)


I think that there is a good argument to be made that people accused of crimes of this nature ought to have their identities shielded from the public. As far as I'm concerned, that's really all that it is necessary as far as the false reporting issue is concerned. I'd presume that false accusations can probably carry civil liability as well depending on the circumstances.

Of course, in the overwhelming majority of rape cases, there is never a defendant or a plaintiff because there is never a case. Rather, after investigation, it is determined that there is insufficient evidence for the case to proceed, and the case is dropped.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby nitePhyyre » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:12 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue.
To be fair, the original is framed pretty terribly also. Don't be that guy? Don't be that guy who would take advantage of a drunk girl.

Because girls can't make their own choices about how much alcohol to consume. They can't be trusted to take care of themselves. They need a man to protect them from themselves like the gentle wallflower they are. But men are fine. They can take care of themselves. There's no way to take advantage of a guy. They are just too awesome. Ugh.

The whole thing is a train-wreck.
Last edited by nitePhyyre on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:24 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby K-R » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:23 am UTC

I've tried, but I can't think of a single chain of events that leads from a woman getting drunk to that woman getting raped that doesn't involve a rapist.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Belial » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:56 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:That fact does not make it acceptable, helpful, or reasonable to make such an outlandish claim that all accusations of rape are true.


The story, incidentally, isn't about that, because it actually doesn't matter what this one woman said about a phenomenon when asked about a different phenomenon.

The story is, in fact, about a bunch of guys who saw a "guys, try not to rape anyone" poster and took personal offense.

The fact that false accusations exist doesn't make them relevant, anymore than it's necessary to wring our hands about false accusations for any other crime. The justice system has a hard time prosecuting rapes that absolutely did happen, to the point that I'd worry more about going to prison for a theft you didn't commit than for a rape that you did.

This "issue" and the fact that it's the first thing out of every MRA's mouth the moment someone starts talking about the actual issue that is rape, is just "What about the meeeeennnnzzz" derailing. The fact that we're talking about it at all means it's working.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:24 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:That fact does not make it acceptable, helpful, or reasonable to make such an outlandish claim that all accusations of rape are true.


The story, incidentally, isn't about that, because it actually doesn't matter what this one woman said about a phenomenon when asked about a different phenomenon.

The story is, in fact, about a bunch of guys who saw a "guys, try not to rape anyone" poster and took personal offense.

The fact that false accusations exist doesn't make them relevant, anymore than it's necessary to wring our hands about false accusations for any other crime. The justice system has a hard time prosecuting rapes that absolutely did happen, to the point that I'd worry more about going to prison for a theft you didn't commit than for a rape that you did.

This "issue" and the fact that it's the first thing out of every MRA's mouth the moment someone starts talking about the actual issue that is rape, is just "What about the meeeeennnnzzz" derailing. The fact that we're talking about it at all means it's working.

I have a hard time keeping up some times.
It's working?

Someone said, "What about the Men."
That triggered this conversation.

It is Working?
Is that a Good Thing? Or, A Bad Thing?

Yes. Men can be terrible. Rape does Happen.
Yes. Women can be terrible. Lies that Hurt. Sexual misconduct. stuff.

Is it good to have a conversation that talks to and about All of us?
Well; Not all of us. But; Both our Men and our Women are at risk.

We have some Good Guys. They get targeted.
That is Bad. The least we can do is Warn Them!

We also have Rape Clubs. That is Bad.
To confuse a well protected member of a Rape Club with a Hapless Sweetie with a Libido that wants out of the box is Wrong and so easy to do.

How do we protect our women and our men?
Yes. Some women are terrible. Not all.
Yes. Some men seem to be, just, as bad.

Posters on a Wall are difficult to ignore.
What do the posters tell men?

Don't be That Guy?
The ones that are That Guy might like the poster showing them at the center of Everyone's Attention.
Rape is about Power. Right?

The ones that are Not That Guy. What is That poster like for those men?
Embarrassing?

Do any of you know a Man that has seen the poster?
A man that is not That Guy?
Are they Embarrassed?

What goes through a man's head?
I don't want to be That Guy?
What else?

ok. clear sign of What we Don't want him to be.
What Do we want him to be? Himself?

Good Guys are So Great! Be Yourself!
If you are Wonderful, Don't change!

Many men are nice. It happens.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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