(Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape campaign

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Telchar » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:44 am UTC

I would generally agree, PM, that these kind of "Pain Olympics" are generally a bad way of doing things and we should just co-opt the middle and do what we can for both sides. This case is rather unique, however, in that decreasing the number of false rape accusations has the unfortunate side effect of chilling the reporting of the already chronically under reported rape because we are so shitty at determining what did and did not happen.

Essentially, if you can find a way to decrease the amount of false accusations that doesn't simultaneously reduce the amount of real rapes reported then, of these two diametrically opposed sides, I'd side with the chronically under reported rape vs the totally average incidence, however horrible, of false accusations.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:50 am UTC

Telchar wrote:I would generally agree, PM, that these kind of "Pain Olympics" are generally a bad way of doing things and we should just co-opt the middle and do what we can for both sides. This case is rather unique, however, in that decreasing the number of false rape accusations has the unfortunate side effect of chilling the reporting of the already chronically under reported rape because we are so shitty at determining what did and did not happen.

Essentially, if you can find a way to decrease the amount of false accusations that doesn't simultaneously reduce the amount of real rapes reported then, of these two diametrically opposed sides, I'd side with the chronically under reported rape vs the totally average incidence, however horrible, of false accusations.

Hell-o;
What are we blathering on about?
What it reads like to me is like blood tests.

False Positives vs False Negatives.
Is that, right?

With blood tests like with Rape we want to prevent incidence of of True Positives.

Yes. The under reporting is and will always be a problem.
So, Belly Up! Who do we need to Talk to to get the Victim to Report?

Those persons living in first world countries have Public Health Systems.
The Hospital Staff can be trained to listen.
The People can be Trained to go to the ER with every little HangNail.

Yep. You will have your, "He can't talk to me That Way. I'll show him."
There will be motivations to Falsely accuse.

The list is seemingly endless and I know I can not think of all of the Reasons a person might do that.
What do we Want? The incidence of Rape to Fall! No More of That.

Between here and there? Hospitals and hospital staff can work Wonders.
The victim needs care. Each and every one is an individual.

The care and feeding of a Rape Victim may have a call to the Police inside the Standing Orders.
Before it gets to that point the Victims must come for Care.

To offer a Nannie's Lap in the form of a Nurse is as fair an idea as I can come up with.
First: Train the Nannies to open their arms and their hearts.
Then: Train the Victims to go see the Nannies. First! Don't handle this alone. "You will be safe with us" can be the Public Health message.
People can be trained very easily to go to someone that wants to see them and will take care of them for a while after they have had a Bad HangNail.

Some women are threatened.
If you have a Public Health System then your next poster might show a Woman in a Nurses Uniform.
The caption can say, "She will understand."

The Nurse can be a useful member of society.
Rape victims need a little Tender Loving Care, sometimes.

That may increase the True Positives.
The False Positives? jeeze.

What is The Rule? We believe Everything!
Then, we start looking for the Truth.

Some women may show up for the Tender Care of the Nurse.
It happens. "What? Do I have to be Raped to be cared for?"

Some women may need to talk to the Nurse about a Near Miss.
Those are traumatic, too. No Rape Kit needed. The Person still needs care.

The ER can be a place for That Kind of Care. The Staff at the Hospital nearest to me would Fail and Fail badly.
The European system is more functional. The Canadians have a Public Health System. It is responsive to her people.

Mexico has a system of Public Health. I have no idea how Rape is delt with there. It is a Nationalized Public Health System
I know for a Fact in Mexico care is delivered First. Then how much money you have is talked about later.

The people pay something toward their medical care in Mexico. It is a sliding scale system. Care is delivered, First.

Get the Assaulted to go for help from The Nurse.
Going to see the Nurse first may help to Drop the False Positive Rate.

ech. Or it could Make the False Positives worse.
Don't be That Guy. If you have tangled with That Guy go to the ER.
Tell the Nurse.

The changes in Protocol for Highly functioning Public Health Systems could be very easy.
Public Education is Essential. I know Canada know how and does public education.

My Dream for when disaster strikes:
The ER has forms. (maybe those forms can be in a special color)
The victim presents to the Staff. Because of Public Education she/he knows what color of Form to Take.

People with that color form are place in Triage ahead of nearly everyone for a Private place to Wait.
Rape Kits are Not All about proving guilt.
Some of the items can be comfort for The Victim.

First take care of The Victim.
It can be a Man. He is going to have a Rough way to go.
Public education can teach him to get the right color form and be moved into a Safe Space quickly, too.

Then the cultural Shift. We are in a Game of Tug of War.

There are a lot of Them. We must be Kinder. We must be More Open.
The Police may get involved. That is Not a given. Care of the victim must be a given.

We also need to be warned about the Rape Culture.
I read about it here.
What I read here at xkcd shed light on what I had seen and heard, before I read xkcd.

The Posters that named and wrote about The Rape Culture are doing us a service.
Rape Culture is Real. Both men and women are at Risk.

The risk is different for the two genders.
It is still a risk to both.
Last edited by addams on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Derek » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:23 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim. With murder, there's a corpse - sure, maybe it was an accident, maybe it was suicide, but claiming the defendant didn't do it doesn't mean "there isn't even a dead body!" With theft, something's missing. Sure, maybe the victim isn't a victim and they just buried the object in the backyard and said someone stole it. But claiming the defendant didn't steal it doesn't mean "what are you talking about, "theft", you still have that thing!" If an individual named the defendant, they're implied to be a liar in an argument for the defendant's innocence, but there's no implication a crime didn't even occur - it's just an argument that "someone else did it."
But with a rape case, arguing that the defendant is innocent *cannot be done* without claiming the plaintiff is liar. Either the victim is telling the truth and the defendant is a rapist, or the defendant isn't a rapist and the victim *isn't a victim* and *is a liar.*

People can and have faked crimes in order to make false accusations. So claiming a defendant didn't steal it could well mean that the accuser is lying. I can also imagine a situation, though I don't know how common it would be, where a victim is raped but cannot correctly identify the rapist afterwards.

In any case, I don't see how any of this justifies throwing out "innocent until proven guilty". The innocence of the defendant must always be assumed, no matter how obvious the evidence or heinous the circumstances. Or maybe I'm not understanding your point in this paragraph.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:02 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim.

Well, hold on, rape accusations are hardly unique here. From everything from failing to carry out a verbal contract to a private threat to a private physical assault there's a middle ground between 'the victim's telling the truth' and 'the victim's lying'. In all these situations, someone being found not guilty does not imply the victim has not suffered genuine trauma, it simply means either there's insufficient evidence or there was a genuine miscommunication going on.

As you say, it's overwhelmingly the case that someone voluntarily undergoing the horrific experience of a court case did suffer enormous trauma; Few would put themselves through it otherwise. So anyone equating the accused being found not guilty to the victim lying is being way too simplistic.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:16 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The problem with allowing/forcing abortions only in rape cases is that you will have a pretty big incentive to lie about rape in order to get/force an abortion. Better to always allow abortions, though not sure on the forcing side...

Oh, yeah, that's true. =(

Reminder to self: remember to think about how people will try to cheat a system.


Yeah, a little cynicism goes a long ways. It'd make an interesting ethical question if we could perfectly sort out the real rape cases, but if we could do that, then this whole issue would have already been solved.

Now, perverse incentives can still be a problem with other protections, but they're easier to undo, and less time constrained. So, you find out a guy falsely claimed rape two years down the line, you charge him back child support.

nitePhyyre wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue.
To be fair, the original is framed pretty terribly also. Don't be that guy? Don't be that guy who would take advantage of a drunk girl.

Because girls can't make their own choices about how much alcohol to consume. They can't be trusted to take care of themselves. They need a man to protect them from themselves like the gentle wallflower they are. But men are fine. They can take care of themselves. There's no way to take advantage of a guy. They are just too awesome. Ugh.

The whole thing is a train-wreck.


Both sides are framing the issue poorly. Both issues are legitimate, but how you frame an argument definitely matters. An obvious framing issue for me is that both sides are treating it as gender specific. In addition to not being entirely accurate, I don't see that making it into a gender war helps anything. It just results in people reacting to the whole campaign because they feel offended. In terms of a publicity campaign, there is no requirement for opposition, yet both groups failed here.

We do not need to necessarily throw out either sides rights legally. Yes, rape cases are often particularly messy, with a lack of evidence as to if consent happened or not, and one side claiming each way...it's unfortunate, but legal protections in case of lack of proof are still essential. On the flip side, we must not go so far as to penalize the victim, as in the child support case. We maybe can't help every victim legally, but we should at least build the system such that we make their lives no worse.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Nylonathatep » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:02 pm UTC

I feel the urge to (re)state my position in this issue, lest I run into more trouble with the dreaded red text again.

I believe everyone, including myself, believe the posters made by the "Men's Right Edmonton" group was the wrong message, and just an over-reaction in response to a perceived attack by the part of 'Don't Be That Guy" Campaign.

In fact I think the "Don't Be That Guy" Campaign has the right idea and a genius, interesting way to approach the issue: Rape isn't necessary an act of violence but it is where the female is in a position where a women didn't/cannot give consent to sex/sexual activities. It's educating the masses as a way of crime prevention, and in many cases the perpetrator might not even be aware that he's a rapist because he doesn't have know about the rules regarding consent or acted irrationally due to overwhelming sexual urges (That's also why I've posted the rule of thumb.)

In a perfect scenario, women would not placed herself in such a position where she would placed herself in danger(not just rape, but murder, robbery, victims of other crimes, etc.) and the gentlemen involved would not only not forced himself onto her, but also am aware of the situation where the female cannot/isn't giving consent and acted accordingly. Since we do not live in the perfect world, the situation breaks down. How much responsibility are placed on each party can be a sensitive issue, but I do feel that men should always have a great responsibility on that matter.(The act relies on the male's performance, no pun intended.) The law, however, places the entire emphasis on the male party, and therefore like any other badly written law, it is subject to loopholes and abuse. The Law should be equal for all and unbias, gender or otherwise.

In regards to child support/custody problem where the female was raping the youngr male, I'll introduce a new perspective in that issue: The younger male victim here had not reached the age of reason at the time of where the child could have been conceived, and therefore could not legally execute the decision to have the female undergo the abortion, even if he wanted to.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue.
To be fair, the original is framed pretty terribly also. Don't be that guy? Don't be that guy who would take advantage of a drunk girl.

Because girls can't make their own choices about how much alcohol to consume. They can't be trusted to take care of themselves. They need a man to protect them from themselves like the gentle wallflower they are. But men are fine. They can take care of themselves. There's no way to take advantage of a guy. They are just too awesome. Ugh.

The whole thing is a train-wreck.
I can't be arsed to dig it back up, but one of the pieces about this cited a survey saying 48% of those surveyed (I think British men 18-25) thought it wasn't rape to have sex with an unconscious girl. This isn't about "girls can't take care of themselves", it's about putting the onus on the would-be rapist to decide not to rape someone.

The "don't be that guy" campaign is fighting against deeply held assumption that some instances of rape aren't actually rape. The "don't be that girl" campaign doesn't have to fight that battle. If you survey women age 18-25, I *very much doubt* that 48% would say a false rape accusation is ever not awful. (Although sure, let's ask the question. But there aren't such surveys and "don't be that girl" is just a snarky comeback to "don't be that guy".)

Belial wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:That fact does not make it acceptable, helpful, or reasonable to make such an outlandish claim that all accusations of rape are true.


The story, incidentally, isn't about that, because it actually doesn't matter what this one woman said about a phenomenon when asked about a different phenomenon.
It does matter, actually. It's a blatant falsehood.

These issues are *fucking serious* and we cannot have an actual discussion about them if claims, even stupid ones, are dismissed with *lies*.

This particular chain of discussion start when you modtexted at someone for building a strawman, when no, that thing is actually what somebody said. And not just any "somebody", the spokesperson for the organization behind the original campaign. Yes, it's a derailment, but how is LYING going to fix the derailment? Refocus the discussion, put the false accusations issue in context, but DON'T say they don't happen.

Belial wrote:The fact that false accusations exist doesn't make them relevant, anymore than it's necessary to wring our hands about false accusations for any other crime. The justice system has a hard time prosecuting rapes that absolutely did happen, to the point that I'd worry more about going to prison for a theft you didn't commit than for a rape that you did.
I agree the system needs some overhauling to deal with rape accusations. But that overhaul has to take false accusations into account - they already happen (not a lot, but they *happen*) - and as with any legal procedure there will be those who use it not for its intended purpose of prosecuting criminals, but just for throwing legal and social and political shitstorms at innocents.

This "issue" and the fact that it's the first thing out of every MRA's mouth the moment someone starts talking about the actual issue that is rape, is just "What about the meeeeennnnzzz" derailing. The fact that we're talking about it at all means it's working.
This is pretty disingenuous. This entire thread is *specifically about* their hijacking of the issue. So...yes, of course we're talking about them? You can't claim derailment of *this thread*.

Derek wrote:
Spoiler:
Princess Marzipan wrote:With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim. With murder, there's a corpse - sure, maybe it was an accident, maybe it was suicide, but claiming the defendant didn't do it doesn't mean "there isn't even a dead body!" With theft, something's missing. Sure, maybe the victim isn't a victim and they just buried the object in the backyard and said someone stole it. But claiming the defendant didn't steal it doesn't mean "what are you talking about, "theft", you still have that thing!" If an individual named the defendant, they're implied to be a liar in an argument for the defendant's innocence, but there's no implication a crime didn't even occur - it's just an argument that "someone else did it."
But with a rape case, arguing that the defendant is innocent *cannot be done* without claiming the plaintiff is liar. Either the victim is telling the truth and the defendant is a rapist, or the defendant isn't a rapist and the victim *isn't a victim* and *is a liar.*

People can and have faked crimes in order to make false accusations. So claiming a defendant didn't steal it could well mean that the accuser is lying. I can also imagine a situation, though I don't know how common it would be, where a victim is raped but cannot correctly identify the rapist afterwards.

In any case, I don't see how any of this justifies throwing out "innocent until proven guilty". The innocence of the defendant must always be assumed, no matter how obvious the evidence or heinous the circumstances. Or maybe I'm not understanding your point in this paragraph.
Most rape accusations are "This person / these people raped me." And in those cases, if the accused is innocent, that means the accuser *was not raped.* It's not like there's someone else who may have been responsible.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby aoeu » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:30 pm UTC

It's the kind of campaign that has the more weight the more people take offense to it :D it's always pretty funny to watch what ensues when people pull this

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:34 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:It's the kind of campaign that has the more weight the more people take offense to it :D it's always pretty funny to watch what ensues when people pull this
You. You are not helping.

Go away, adults are trying to have a discussion.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:39 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:I agree that "don't be that girl" posters are needlessly antagonistic and a poorly attempted reframing of the issue.
To be fair, the original is framed pretty terribly also. Don't be that guy? Don't be that guy who would take advantage of a drunk girl.

Because girls can't make their own choices about how much alcohol to consume. They can't be trusted to take care of themselves. They need a man to protect them from themselves like the gentle wallflower they are. But men are fine. They can take care of themselves. There's no way to take advantage of a guy. They are just too awesome. Ugh.

The whole thing is a train-wreck.

None of your second paragraph is implied by the original posters, and some is directly contradicted. In fact, one of the original posters shows a man being taken advantage of by another man.
Spoiler:
Image
The thing that men and women have in common is that when they are sexually assaulted, men are likely to be the ones assaulting them. Targeting men with a "stop sexually abusing other people" campaign is wholly appropriate and not at all disempowering to their victims.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:45 pm UTC

Belial wrote:The story, incidentally, isn't about that, because it actually doesn't matter what this one woman said about a phenomenon when asked about a different phenomenon.

The story is, in fact, about a bunch of guys who saw a "guys, try not to rape anyone" poster and took personal offense.

The fact that false accusations exist doesn't make them relevant, anymore than it's necessary to wring our hands about false accusations for any other crime. The justice system has a hard time prosecuting rapes that absolutely did happen, to the point that I'd worry more about going to prison for a theft you didn't commit than for a rape that you did.

This "issue" and the fact that it's the first thing out of every MRA's mouth the moment someone starts talking about the actual issue that is rape, is just "What about the meeeeennnnzzz" derailing. The fact that we're talking about it at all means it's working.
Okay, and I agree with almost all of that, except one thing -- the reason we're talking about it isn't because it's working; it's because you've yet to say "Oh, right, okay, that woman did say that thing, beg your pardon; but yeah, the verbal flub / possibly shitty opinion of one lady doesn't change this issue in the slightest, so let's move on".

I mean, let's do some roleplaying here for a moment: Imagine I'm the MRA and you're the feminist. Imagine you pointed out that a big MRA kahuna said something kind-of-regrettable regarding women, and imagine I responded by pretty much saying 'NOPE he never said that'.

You proceed to show me the quote where, uh yes he did say pretty-much-that. And I proceed to refuse to acknowledge that he did, in fact, say that, while continuing to tell you why whatever he said is irrelevant anyway and in fact just by having this discussion we have somehow allowed the feminists/terrorists to win.

Does this situation sound familiar to you? It probably should! It's pretty much every discussion with an MRA ever. And now we're having it right here, with you, except the roles are flipped -- I mean, yeah, I agree with pretty much all you're saying here, but can you see how you're making it hard to do so? And can you see how just going 'Okay, Yeah, She Did Say That Thing' pretty much defuses the whole situation -- at least in regards to those of us who do see this as a derailment? You're not surrendering ground, you're acknowledging reality.

A lot of times, when people bring up issues that concern men in response to issues that concern women, we respond by denying the issue even exists. I think a much more productive response is simply: "That might be a valid issue, but it isn't what we're talking about now".

EDIT: Oh, cool, they had a man-on-man one? I didn't know that, that actually makes me feel a lot more positively about the campaign.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby nitePhyyre » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:37 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:Because girls can't make their own choices about how much alcohol to consume. They can't be trusted to take care of themselves. They need a man to protect them from themselves like the gentle wallflower they are. But men are fine. They can take care of themselves. There's no way to take advantage of a guy. They are just too awesome. Ugh.
None of your second paragraph is implied by the original posters, and some is directly contradicted. In fact, one of the original posters shows a man being taken advantage of by another man.
The only was I saw were the 2 guys in the bathroom with the chick and there was a bunch of posters with that picture with different captions. While it would be nicer to have all the combinations, I must say: I stand corrected.

Princess Marzipan wrote:I can't be arsed to dig it back up, but one of the pieces about this cited a survey saying 48% of those surveyed (I think British men 18-25) thought it wasn't rape to have sex with an unconscious girl. This isn't about "girls can't take care of themselves", it's about putting the onus on the would-be rapist to decide not to rape someone.
While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious, you aren't taking care of yourself.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious unaware of an assailants approach, you aren't taking care of yourself deserve to be mugged.
Your victim blaming is boring and stupid.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious, you aren't taking care of yourself.
Well, yeah; I mean, that's totally true. But there's a time and place to say 'You aren't taking care of yourself'; that time and place is never post-rape.

Which is something I think a lot of people in these dialogues miss: It is trivially true that you should not go out and get wasted to a point where you're falling unconscious (unless maybe you're in a circumstance where you know you'll be safe?). If I had a friend who was doing this, I would actively push them to not do this.

But if my friend did this, and got raped, at no point in the process of supporting them post-rape would the words 'Well, you shouldn't have gone and drank yourself unconscious' leave my lips. That is not an appropriate time to point this out.

In general, it is a good idea not to drink yourself unconscious. For a lot of reasons. We should tell people that. We shouldn't make that part of our rape prevention campaign, though, because that isn't the root cause of rape; it's just another mitigating factor.

I mean, if you want to stop people from drinking themselves unconscious, go start a 'stop drinking yourselves unconscious' campaign. I wholly support such campaigns! Just not as part of this particular campaign.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

Does the "victim should've known better" ever have anything to do with "is the alleged assailant guilty and how harshly should ze be punished?"?

Ever? No? Then victim blaming is unnecessary.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:17 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious, you aren't taking care of yourself.

Sure, but it's not necessary to include in the "Don't rape people" campaign any more than seat belt effectiveness is necessary to include in the "Don't drink and drive" campaign. Both are good messages, and it's good for people to know what they can do to protect themselves from horrible people, but it's also totally fine to single out drunk drivers and rapists and address ad campaigns directly at them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:58 am UTC

Derek wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:With other crimes, like murder or theft, assuming the innocence of the accused doesn't simultaneously imply that victim is lying about being a victim. With murder, there's a corpse - sure, maybe it was an accident, maybe it was suicide, but claiming the defendant didn't do it doesn't mean "there isn't even a dead body!" With theft, something's missing. Sure, maybe the victim isn't a victim and they just buried the object in the backyard and said someone stole it. But claiming the defendant didn't steal it doesn't mean "what are you talking about, "theft", you still have that thing!" If an individual named the defendant, they're implied to be a liar in an argument for the defendant's innocence, but there's no implication a crime didn't even occur - it's just an argument that "someone else did it."
But with a rape case, arguing that the defendant is innocent *cannot be done* without claiming the plaintiff is liar. Either the victim is telling the truth and the defendant is a rapist, or the defendant isn't a rapist and the victim *isn't a victim* and *is a liar.*

People can and have faked crimes in order to make false accusations. So claiming a defendant didn't steal it could well mean that the accuser is lying. I can also imagine a situation, though I don't know how common it would be, where a victim is raped but cannot correctly identify the rapist afterwards.

In any case, I don't see how any of this justifies throwing out "innocent until proven guilty". The innocence of the defendant must always be assumed, no matter how obvious the evidence or heinous the circumstances. Or maybe I'm not understanding your point in this paragraph.

Yes. Have we collectively forgotten?
Of course, we sometimes know he/she is guilty.

We are constrained to behave as if the person were innocent.
We do this for us. It is selfish. To gain and maintain respect.

Besides; Our Laws, the sweet outdated documents they were, were written that way for a reason.
How did you hear it?

A Woman or a Man is Pacing Back and Forth in the front of the room.
She/He says,
"If we find One Innocent Man and let One Hundred guilty go on though, That Is OK."
If a person is interacting with people that had taken that class, then the person did not get off Scott Free.

It was said a Thousand Times a Thousand Different Ways.
Innocent until proven guilty.

Then; Treat them as innocent. Follow the Judges orders, within the Law and Moral Decency.
Within the framework of The Judges Orders we are to treat each and every one as an innocent.

It's really hard, sometimes.
We have some dangerous people we need to treat like Family!

Spoiler:
I have some weird questions.
I was told about Evil.
Some people told me that there is a Good Side and a Bad Side.

Are prisons concentrated Evil?
If so; The poor innocents.


Different part of same conversation:
The Great Hippo wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious, you aren't taking care of yourself.
Well, yeah; I mean, that's totally true. But there's a time and place to say 'You aren't taking care of yourself'; that time and place is never post-rape.

Which is something I think a lot of people in these dialogues miss: It is trivially true that you should not go out and get wasted to a point where you're falling unconscious (unless maybe you're in a circumstance where you know you'll be safe?). If I had a friend who was doing this, I would actively push them to not do this.

But if my friend did this, and got raped, at no point in the process of supporting them post-rape would the words 'Well, you shouldn't have gone and drank yourself unconscious' leave my lips. That is not an appropriate time to point this out.

In general, it is a good idea not to drink yourself unconscious. For a lot of reasons. We should tell people that. We shouldn't make that part of our rape prevention campaign, though, because that isn't the root cause of rape; it's just another mitigating factor.

I mean, if you want to stop people from drinking themselves unconscious, go start a 'stop drinking yourselves unconscious' campaign. I wholly support such campaigns! Just not as part of this particular campaign.

umm. With date rape drugs a woman or a man can be a very responsible and reasonable person behaving well within their usual parameters.
The next thing we know........

We have had Don't Leave a Drink Unattended campaigns. Correct?

It is important to go over it, one more time.
Imagine a friend telling you about wondering what happened.

Imagine a person telling you, "I drank too much?"
That person is asking a question, not making a statement.

All the facts line up. Having some wine and food with someone for fun.
Then it was a very Strange night.

Drank too much? What did you drink, Honey?
Men and women want to go Home, often.

Both men and women are often more interested in getting home than thinking about Sex or drinking or much of anything.
Does thinking hurt? More than usual? Poor baby. When will the memory come back? Atropine? You will forget what is about to happen?

If we could spread an idea that might help.
What would it be?

I know! This is a bad situation.
Most people will never be Targeted.
(thanks be to god.)

No food nor drink taken in Public is Safe?
No Sex with the unconscious?
Spoiler:
Now that I think about it I am confused.
The unconscious? Corpse? help.
We need beastiality laws. Honey, don't think about it.

The Rule: Do not become the unconscious.

oh! oh! I had a thought!
What the people are attempting it do is Teach Morality.
It is? Right?

We want to teach people to behave themselves.
Some people need only the superficial lessons.
Some people need more than that.

Stupid Story Alert.
Spoiler:
I know a woman here; In the not right here, but I can see it.
We were talking about ourselves, because like most people we think we are fascinating.

At one point I said, "If you ever see me acting like an Asshole, I am working at it."
She countered with, "If you ever see me Not acting like an Asshole, I am working at it."

That stopped me. The conversation became much more focused.
She explained some stuff to me.

At the end of that conversation I had some things to think about.
At the end of that conversation I had even more respect for that woman.

She is kind and patient with people. It is hard for her.
Every time she is kind, she gets a Gold Star+1.
Every time she does not insult the weak and funny looking, she gets a Star+1.
Every time. Each and every time she must over come her natural inclinations.

It does not look like a struggle. The behaviors are so practiced she can do most without thinking, much.
She gets a Gold Star+1! She did the work many of us will never know.

If the gods be willing she will have the many blessings that come from being kind.
She is told how Beautiful she is, regularly.
She is talked about by people that like her, in front of her.
She will have many, many blessings.

Yet; The Gold Star+1 is for something other people that interact with her will never know.
You would. You would know and like me, you would forget.


How do we stop rape? I wish I had a white board.
Use words. "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Spoiler:
For the few there is no Hope.
There are Man and Women that will hurt and humilate others for fun.
It is the only fun they know. We, humans, need to get our temples tickled.

Rape has become a cultural Phemonoman.
You all know that.

Some men are Trained to Rape.
What do men that have never had sex think about sex?
What about a man that has had a clumsy experience and then ships out?


Some men shine with an inner light that is damn near blinding. (3%)
Most are in the one standard deviation on each side of dead center.(68%)
Some men are born rapists or worse.(x<3%)

Pull the culture toward the blindingly bright.
Push it if need be.

What we have is a global culture that has been pushed and pulled in The Wrong direction.
Don't Rape?

If all your friends did and you got paid to and it was fun and, and, and,.....
What do you care if other men are singled out for a lecture on rape?
It is a little funny.
The good men are catching Hell.
The bad men are ?

Hey! How is Chief Morrison?
Spoiler:
He is My Hero. Everyone needs a hero.
We may need living heroes.
Or; I may need a living hero.

I had a bunch of dead ones.
A living one may be ok.

Hero and far away and doing fine.
Chief Morrison is thinking about this issue.
Correct?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:04 am UTC

The campaign behind "Don't be that girl" has released a statement explaining the purpose of their campaign in more detail. Spoiled for brevity:

Spoiler:
We at Men’s Rights Edmonton have become a national topic of discussion due to our recent poster campaign calling attention to false allegations of rape.

For the people that want a quick answer to the question of why the campaign, we would respond, What is wrong with advocating against both rape and false rape accusations?

Both are abhorrent means of manipulation and power. As for our campaign, not once did it advocate or apologize for rape. It is very clearly worded to target only people who lie about sexual assault. “Lying about sexual assault = a crime” is a statement of fact that any rational person will agree with, and false rape reports undermine the credibility of actual reports of actual rape.

Men’s Rights Edmonton believes the original “Don’t be that guy” campaign is hate speech. It specifically targets a gender and all members of that gender as perpetrators of rape. Sexual violations, including rape, can be committed by anyone. While a majority of reported sexual assaults are committed by men, associating or claiming all men are potential rapists is analogous to claiming all minorities will commit theft.

The “Don’t be that guy” campaign is insulting to anyone with a conscience, both men and women. It is not novel or different.
We want rapists punished for their crimes. We also want the system to punish those that make false rape claims. How more can you trivialize real victims of rape than by making a false rape claim?

Reliable statistics on rape and false claims of rape are hard to find. Some studies, bolstered by low conviction rates, suggest that false claims of rape are on a par with actual rape reports. How is this not a problem? Reducing the false reporting of rape can only work to increase the conviction rates for actual rapists.

Men’s Rights Edmonton extends an open invitation to debate this issue to Lise Gotell and anyone who wishes to join her here. You are more than welcome to join us for a debate.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:14 am UTC

Men’s Rights Edmonton believes the original “Don’t be that guy” campaign is hate speech. It specifically targets a gender and all members of that gender as perpetrators of rape. Sexual violations, including rape, can be committed by anyone. While a majority of reported sexual assaults are committed by men, associating or claiming all men are potential rapists is analogous to claiming all minorities will commit theft.
Jesus fuck. So in response to perceived hate-speech, they decided to launch a campaign involving more hate speech? Do they not understand that under any definition of hate-speech where 'Don't Be That Guy' qualifies, 'Don't Be That Girl' must also qualify? Oh, right, unless your definition of hate-speech includes the phrase, 'Also, we aren't capable of engaging in it'.
How more can you trivialize real victims of rape than by making a false rape claim?
By claiming they weren't raped, you simpering douchefuck.
Reliable statistics on rape and false claims of rape are hard to find. Some studies, bolstered by low conviction rates, suggest that false claims of rape are on a par with actual rape reports.
Oh my God how the hell do you get to be this stupid and still know how to use a computer?

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:01 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Men’s Rights Edmonton believes the original “Don’t be that guy” campaign is hate speech. It specifically targets a gender and all members of that gender as perpetrators of rape. Sexual violations, including rape, can be committed by anyone. While a majority of reported sexual assaults are committed by men, associating or claiming all men are potential rapists is analogous to claiming all minorities will commit theft.
Jesus fuck. So in response to perceived hate-speech, they decided to launch a campaign involving more hate speech? Do they not understand that under any definition of hate-speech where 'Don't Be That Guy' qualifies, 'Don't Be That Girl' must also qualify? Oh, right, unless your definition of hate-speech includes the phrase, 'Also, we aren't capable of engaging in it'.
How more can you trivialize real victims of rape than by making a false rape claim?
By claiming they weren't raped, you simpering douchefuck.
Reliable statistics on rape and false claims of rape are hard to find. Some studies, bolstered by low conviction rates, suggest that false claims of rape are on a par with actual rape reports.
Oh my God how the hell do you get to be this stupid and still know how to use a computer?

Hipo;
You are a little funny.
I seem to be able to read your frustration in your post.

Still; I welcome men that want to examine the issue.
Women can be horrible. It's true!

The idea of the Don't Be That girl and Don't Be That guy posters as Hate Speech is silly.
It may begin other conversations that need to happen.

To be accountable for one's own actions is important.
To be clear about what our own Group expects from us is a good idea.

Accusing a person of rape is serious, because rape is serious.

http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php

The adds seem to be targeting the Wine and Roses set.
That is fine. It is a matter of public education.

Someone must begin to talk about human sexuality in ways that make sense and will be helpful.
One woman can not speak for all women. One man can not speak for all men.

It is a cultural issue. Culture is taught!
We must teach ourselves and each other what we want us to know.

Public education is important.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Magnanimous » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:01 am UTC

Can somebody just commission a(nother) huge study investigating false rape reports, allowing this MRA group to approve the methodology beforehand? If only the US had a large enough research budget that we can shut down any argument with data. That, or make it illegal to publish obviously flawed studies as fact.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby aoeu » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:05 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
aoeu wrote:It's the kind of campaign that has the more weight the more people take offense to it :D it's always pretty funny to watch what ensues when people pull this
You. You are not helping.

Go away, adults are trying to have a discussion.

Helping what? Some people just can't keep their mouth shut, and I'm not talking about me.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:08 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:
aoeu wrote:It's the kind of campaign that has the more weight the more people take offense to it :D it's always pretty funny to watch what ensues when people pull this
You. You are not helping.

Go away, adults are trying to have a discussion.

Helping what? Some people just can't keep their mouth shut, and I'm not talking about me.

Me. It's me.
I talk a lot.

It runs in the Family.
The Family of Man!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:10 am UTC

aoeu wrote:Helping what? Some people just can't keep their mouth shut, and I'm not talking about me.
So, what -- if we even talk about it, we've already lost?

While I do think there are (rare) cases where simply discussing something gives that something far more credence than it's worth, I also think that any campaign which, at its core, relies on offending people to maintain its relevance is pretty much doomed to irrelevance from the outset.

Or to put it more simply: If the only way you can keep us talking about you is by convincing us you're a terrible person, I don't think you're going to reach your goals. Unless your goals are simply 'Keep Everyone Talking About How Terrible I Am'.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby engr » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:18 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious unaware of an assailants approach, you aren't taking care of yourself deserve to be mugged.
Your victim blaming is boring and stupid.


If you draw this parallel between rape and other violent crimes (eg. mugging), you may also want to look at how people react to advices to minimize your risk or becoming a rape victim vs. other crimes' victim.
Somehow it is generally acceptable to give people advices like "try avoiding walking through high crime areas at night", or "it is best not to display expensive jewelery/gadgets in certain circumstances", "be aware of your surroundings", etc., and no one will yell "you are victim blaming!", "my friend followed these advices and have still was mugged!", or even "you are part of the mugging culture!". But God forbid you give the same advice about the risk of sexual assault...
Usually, when you point out this discrepancy, the response is "how dare you comparing rape with some property crime!", which is asinine, but often works, since it shifts the focus on the opponent, who now has to defend himself against this strawman.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:43 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
aoeu wrote:Helping what? Some people just can't keep their mouth shut, and I'm not talking about me.
So, what -- if we even talk about it, we've already lost?

While I do think there are (rare) cases where simply discussing something gives that something far more credence than it's worth, I also think that any campaign which, at its core, relies on offending people to maintain its relevance is pretty much doomed to irrelevance from the outset.

Or to put it more simply: If the only way you can keep us talking about you is by convincing us you're a terrible person, I don't think you're going to reach your goals. Unless your goals are simply 'Keep Everyone Talking About How Terrible I Am'.

Hipo;
Are you old enough to have witnessed the Cultural Shift in the US?

Who are the Heroes? The Bad Boys?
The mean, shallow, ill tempered women?
Who has all the Glitz and Glamor?

Do I understand your point?
We have Assholes censoring us.

Not for foul language; That does happen.
We do wax colloquial from time to time.

Censoring what we can agree with and not agree with.
Censoring the conversations.

It is so difficult to discuss some issues.
If we agree that the Rape Culture does not serve our people nor the people of the World,
then discussing it to Death is a darn good idea. As we talk and sing we can work, together.

Work toward? Work toward a day when we can look at our people with respect and affection.
That day is a long way off. We will not get there if we do not begin the Journey.

What way are we going, Hipo?


engr wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:While I disagree with that 48% of people, if you are drinking until you are unconscious unaware of an assailants approach, you aren't taking care of yourself deserve to be mugged.
Your victim blaming is boring and stupid.


If you draw this parallel between rape and other violent crimes (eg. mugging), you may also want to look at how people react to advices to minimize your risk or becoming a rape victim vs. other crimes' victim.
Somehow it is generally acceptable to give people advices like "try avoiding walking through high crime areas at night", or "it is best not to display expensive jewelery/gadgets in certain circumstances", "be aware of your surroundings", etc., and no one will yell "you are victim blaming!", "my friend followed these advices and have still was mugged!", or even "you are part of the mugging culture!". But God forbid you give the same advice about the risk of sexual assault...
Usually, when you point out this discrepancy, the response is "how dare you comparing rape with some property crime!", which is asinine, but often works, since it shifts the focus on the opponent, who now has to defend himself against this strawman.

I am not an expert on Rape Culture.
What way do you think we should go?

Teach both our men and women about 21st Century tactics?
That is a Good Idea.

Is the message the same for both men and women?
The message is: "It is brutal out there. Be careful."

May we discuss the Cultural Shifts required to make both our men and our women safer?
How will be ever get to that place? What way do we go to get there?

Victim blaming happens on both sides of this issue.
Such as:
What were you doing hanging out with a Trashy Girl like that?
What?! You had sex with her? Six months in jail? You are lucky your dick didn't fall off.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:13 am UTC

engr wrote:If you draw this parallel between rape and other violent crimes (eg. mugging), you may also want to look at how people react to advices to minimize your risk or becoming a rape victim vs. other crimes' victim.
Somehow it is generally acceptable to give people advices like "try avoiding walking through high crime areas at night", or "it is best not to display expensive jewelery/gadgets in certain circumstances", "be aware of your surroundings", etc., and no one will yell "you are victim blaming!", "my friend followed these advices and have still was mugged!", or even "you are part of the mugging culture!". But God forbid you give the same advice about the risk of sexual assault...
It is perfectly okay to encourage people to be aware of their environment; to not walk through high crime areas at night; to even possibly have some self-defense training. What isn't okay is to -- post rape, post mugging, post assault, or post robbery -- tell the person who was victimized by any of these crimes that they should have been more aware / not walked through a high crime area / have learned tai kwan do. You are a dick if you do this for any of these crimes.

Being more aware of your surroundings is something we should encourage. But when you start saying it in response to rape / robbery / assault / muggings, what you are saying is dangerously close to 'It wouldn't have happened if you had only done X'. Which is obviously bullshit, and why hackles get so quickly raised. There is a time and a place to talk about ways we can mitigate our risk of assault; it is not post-assault.

If people strike you as 'touchy' on this issue, maybe it's because you're not very good at handling this issue? It's pretty simple: Encourage people to mitigate their risks, but don't tell them what they "should have done" when horrible things happen.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby Angua » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:45 am UTC

There's also the fact that when you prosecute someone for mugging, their defense never involves 'well they were walking alone in an alley at night, so they were obviously asking for it'.
'Look, sir, I know Angua. She's not the useless type. She doesn't stand there and scream helplessly. She makes other people do that.'
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby addams » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:25 am UTC

Angua wrote:There's also the fact that when you prosecute someone for mugging, their defense never involves 'well they were walking alone in an alley at night, so they were obviously asking for it'.

Honey;
That is not true.
What were you doing There? is often asked.
oh. Defense attorneys don't say that to the victims of muggings.
Everyone else does.

Same with Property crimes.
What did you do to secure you property? is a question asked by the police.
Why did you park in a bad neighborhood? again by the police.
What did you expect? You put bumper stickers on your car.
Why didn't you buy a home where people are like you? police, again.

I know Rape is a serious matter.
Yes. I know some people victim blame and there is no place for that.

It is important that we aim for as much truth as we can hit.
The truth is victums are often blamed.
Rape victums do not have a monopoly on being discounted.

The low reporting rate for Rape sets it apart from other crimes.
Threats are used to keep people from reporting Rape more than threats are used to prevent property crime reports.

Rarely are drugs used in property crimes.
Rarely is a property crime as personal as Rape.

Property crimes are power over Things.
Rape and sexual assault are power over the person.

Of course, it is possible to use property crimes to gain power over the person.
My nation may very well be doing that. And; Other things as well.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

K-R wrote:I've tried, but I can't think of a single chain of events that leads from a womanperson getting drunk to that womanperson getting raped that doesn't involve a rapist.


(1) fixed.

(2) Blackmail from a third party, perhaps ("You'll pretend to Danny that you like him and have sex with him or we'll do X")? Or would that make the blackmailer the rapist, even though they're not part of the actual sex act?

(3) Taking the other tack, what about situations where the non-drunk technically committed rape, but without malice? Maybe they're a bit of an idiot, didn't realize the drunk was drunk. Maybe they're garbage with interpreting behavioral cues and interpreted a clearly unwilling "yes" given out of fear as just a plain "yes". Technically the guy would be a rapist, that wouldn't immediately mean he's a monster. In that case, I suppose you'd have to aim at eliminating the opportunity for rape, rather than prioritize the demonizing of the perpetrators.

(The above are presented as hypotheticals, and almost certainly represent 0.000001% at best of cases.)
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:45 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:(1) fixed.

(2) Blackmail from a third party, perhaps ("You'll pretend to Danny that you like him and have sex with him or we'll do X")? Or would that make the blackmailer the rapist, even though they're not part of the actual sex act?

(3) Taking the other tack, what about situations where the non-drunk technically committed rape, but without malice? Maybe they're a bit of an idiot, didn't realize the drunk was drunk. Maybe they're garbage with interpreting behavioral cues and interpreted a clearly unwilling "yes" given out of fear as just a plain "yes". Technically the guy would be a rapist, that wouldn't immediately mean he's a monster. In that case, I suppose you'd have to aim at eliminating the opportunity for rape, rather than prioritize the demonizing of the perpetrators.

(The above are presented as hypotheticals, and almost certainly represent 0.000001% at best of cases.)
(2) That ignores the spirit of the point K-R was making (in that, rape requires a violation of consent, which requires someone to violate that consent -- wittingly or unwittingly).

(3) This is only an issue when you presume 'rapist' is a synonym for 'monster'. I don't think anyone here makes that presumption.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby ameretrifle » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:04 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:(3) Taking the other tack, what about situations where the non-drunk technically committed rape, but without malice? Maybe they're a bit of an idiot, didn't realize the drunk was drunk. Maybe they're garbage with interpreting behavioral cues and interpreted a clearly unwilling "yes" given out of fear as just a plain "yes". Technically the guy would be a rapist, that wouldn't immediately mean he's a monster. In that case, I suppose you'd have to aim at eliminating the opportunity for rape, rather than prioritize the demonizing of the perpetrators.

I suppose some radicals might suggest that anyone who is quite that bad at interpreting behavioral cues as described in option 2 needs serious therapy before they ruin their own and others' lives in a couple dozen different kinds of ways... but yeah, telling women/people who don't want to be sexually assaulted to never give anyone like that any "opportunity" is much easier... I mean, there's so many fewer people in that category... and it's so easy to tell who people who are that bad at interpreting cues are, and they all congregate in clearly labeled areas, which, being people who are shit at behavioral cues, they make sure to stay clearly within at all times... there's so many clear ways to eliminate that "opportunity" that don't involve staying dead sober locked up in your own house with your parents at all times... and that's an okay suggestion to make to people, that's perfectly acceptable, but if we tell people who are terrible at social cues that they might need to get better at it and/or stop to think before having sex with people, well, that would just be demonizing them... yes, clearly "eliminating the opportunity for rape" is the most efficient solution...

It's not just about fairness and pervasive misogyny. (Though yes, it sure as hell is about those things.) Trying to shift some of the message onto "hey, try to make really sure you aren't about to rape someone" is also about efficiency in actually stopping things from happening. To not have sex with someone unwilling, you have to stop 30-60 seconds to think about the situation and communicate. To prevent anyone from having sex with you when you don't want them to, you have to be constantly vigilant 24/7. One of these things is more feasible than the other. It's not demonization to suggest it.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:32 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:(2) That ignores the spirit of the point K-R was making (in that, rape requires a violation of consent, which requires someone to violate that consent -- wittingly or unwittingly).

(3) This is only an issue when you presume 'rapist' is a synonym for 'monster'. I don't think anyone here makes that presumption.

Ah. I read K-R's post as a direct reply to nitePhyyre's post, and had gotten a different impression. I guess my reply was a non sequitor to the current discussion, then.

but yeah, telling women/people who don't want to be sexually assaulted to never give anyone like that any "opportunity" is much easier...

That is not at all what I said. I did not lay the blame the rapee at all, and I wasn't saying "don't tell potential rapists not to rape."

Trying to shift some of the message onto "hey, try to make really sure you aren't about to rape someone" is also about efficiency in actually stopping things from happening. To not have sex with someone unwilling, you have to stop 30-60 seconds to think about the situation and communicate.

That would be an example of eliminating the opportunity.

What I was trying to say, which I communicated poorly, is that eliminating the opportunity is everyone's responsibility (drunk person, non-drunk, society at large), and just that that should be the goal of stuff like the linked case where the girl had made it up, instead of trying to set up either the plaintiff or the defendant as some kind of moral monster.

(EDIT: for a good PoV to interpret my posts through, I don't like sex as a phenomenon at all (kind of horrified by it), so I am absolutely not on board with any form of "she was asking for it" or "it wasn't actually rape" nonsense. If something I say comes off as victim-blaming or rape apologetics, then I've just used poor phrasing and should be asked to clarify.)
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby ameretrifle » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:43 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Trying to shift some of the message onto "hey, try to make really sure you aren't about to rape someone" is also about efficiency in actually stopping things from happening. To not have sex with someone unwilling, you have to stop 30-60 seconds to think about the situation and communicate.

That would be an example of eliminating the opportunity.

Okay, then, yeah, you really need to come up with a different way to phrase those thoughts, I think, because "eliminating the opportunity" has completely different connotations. Like, if I said that I had "eliminated the opportunity" to stray from my diet by staring at a plate of cookies and not eating them. The cookies are still there. The "opportunity" has not really been "eliminated". I'm just not taking it. Because I'm an intelligent person with a will of my own who is totally capable of that, no matter how big a plate of cookies my roommate left on the table. If I do eat one, I can blame my roommate for making the stupid cookies and leaving them somewhere people can see them, but that's childish and stupid and everyone would know it.

And there are a lot, a lot of campaigns that do use the sentiment of "eliminating the opportunity" to mean "Ladies, don't ever get drunk anywhere men might be around, or walk across any dark parking lots, or stay out late, or do anything ever, because it's your responsibility not to give anyone the chance to attack you (even though that's obviously not possible)." So yeah, I get that you don't mean that, but it's a good thing to make sure you're clear about.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:06 pm UTC

ameretrifle wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
Trying to shift some of the message onto "hey, try to make really sure you aren't about to rape someone" is also about efficiency in actually stopping things from happening. To not have sex with someone unwilling, you have to stop 30-60 seconds to think about the situation and communicate.

That would be an example of eliminating the opportunity.

Okay, then, yeah, you really need to come up with a different way to phrase those thoughts, I think, because "eliminating the opportunity" has completely different connotations. Like, if I said that I had "eliminated the opportunity" to stray from my diet by staring at a plate of cookies and not eating them. The cookies are still there. The "opportunity" has not really been "eliminated". I'm just not taking it. Because I'm an intelligent person with a will of my own who is totally capable of that, no matter how big a plate of cookies my roommate left on the table. If I do eat one, I can blame my roommate for making the stupid cookies and leaving them somewhere people can see them, but that's childish and stupid and everyone would know it.

And there are a lot, a lot of campaigns that do use the sentiment of "eliminating the opportunity" to mean "Ladies, don't ever get drunk anywhere men might be around, or walk across any dark parking lots, or stay out late, or do anything ever, because it's your responsibility not to give anyone the chance to attack you (even though that's obviously not possible)." So yeah, I get that you don't mean that, but it's a good thing to make sure you're clear about.

I mean, eliminating the opportunity by educating people about what the rules are.

Arg, I'm bad at phrasing.

"Don't be that guy" is what I think should be done. I think the campaign is a good idea.
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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby K-R » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:45 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:(2) Blackmail from a third party, perhaps ("You'll pretend to Danny that you like him and have sex with him or we'll do X")? Or would that make the blackmailer the rapist, even though they're not part of the actual sex act?

Is that even rape?

(3) Taking the other tack, what about situations where the non-drunk technically committed rape, but without malice?

They're still a rapist.




KrytenKoro wrote:I read K-R's post as a direct reply to nitePhyyre's post, and had gotten a different impression.

It was (which is why it was gendered). I'm not sure how that makes point two valid.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:(2) Blackmail from a third party, perhaps ("You'll pretend to Danny that you like him and have sex with him or we'll do X")? Or would that make the blackmailer the rapist, even though they're not part of the actual sex act?

Is that even rape?


If consent is impaired, then yes, it's a form of rape. Consider the case where a person offers another person at gunpoint the choice of death or sex. Just because the second person chose to live doesn't mean it wasn't rape. So merely having a choice is not the same as consent.

It's a grey area between that case and, say, 'I'll pay you $100 to sleep with me', though there are some feminists who view even prostitution as a form of rape. On the flip side, there are people who don't think the aforementioned case is rape; eg, in prison, any man that doesn't choose death over rape must've consented and thus isn't rape.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby K-R » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Consider the case where a person offers another person at gunpoint the choice of death or sex.

In that situation, though, the person threatening the victim and the person having sex with them are the same person, which isn't the case in the blackmail scenario.

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:34 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Consider the case where a person offers another person at gunpoint the choice of death or sex.

In that situation, though, the person threatening the victim and the person having sex with them are the same person, which isn't the case in the blackmail scenario.


In the case where person A has sex with person B only because person C is threatening A, then yes it's rape. B might not be C, but a rape still occurred.

There was a rather interesting case where a group of gunmen held up a restaurant, and forced everyone to pair up for sex. Interesting in game theory, in that do you and a bunch of others fight to pair up with the one incredibly attractive person, or do you go for the less attractive to avoid being paired with the lovecraftian abomination at the table by the bar?

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Re: (Trigger Warning)Trouble poster Parody on anti rape camp

Postby K-R » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:46 pm UTC

Skimming over the Wiki article on rape, I can't see how it is. Rape is defined as the sexual penetration of someone without that person's consent. Person C didn't commit rape, because they didn't penetrate anyone. Person B didn't commit rape, because they had no reason to believe consent was invalid. Therefore, no rape occurred.


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