Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

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leady
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby leady » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:48 pm UTC

Err, just to be clear I'm part of the problem under your definition by virtue of not caring about your perceived problem. I don't and never have made such comments!

but I can see how it could be misread so I won't hold it against you :)

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

Oh, no; I think you misunderstand: If you think the act of talking about sexism online is a solicitation for rape threats, the problem isn't that you don't care about this problem -- the problem is that you think that when Anita Sarkeesian decided to speak about sexism, this was a request to be threatened with rape.

It would be much more preferable if you didn't care about this problem. But you obviously care enough about it to have a position on it -- and your position is, in many ways, pretty much darn-near indistinguishable from those who threatened to rape Anita Sarkeesian.

The only difference is you've clarified you wouldn't make the threats yourself. But otherwise, you're saying what pretty much a significant majority of them are likely saying: 'We're doing her a favor by threatening to rape her'.

Basically, your position is horrifying and terrible and I hope you one day grow out of it.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby WibblyWobbly » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:35 pm UTC

leady wrote:Err, just to be clear I'm part of the problem under your definition by virtue of not caring about your perceived problem. I don't and never have made such comments!

but I can see how it could be misread so I won't hold it against you :)

I'm going to repost this because you didn't read it the first time:

The Great Hippo wrote:
leady wrote:yup I probably am part of that problem you perceive, i'm also happy to admit it.

yes I also credit smart women in media roles as being cynical enough to both expect and dig out of 1000s of general rants the handful of evil comments that will grant them far greater coverage of their message and probably make them money. I'm confused as to whether that makes me more or less a problem in your eyes :) :) :) :)
Switching your words around to turn Anita Sarkeesian from a woman who solicited rape threats merely by posting about sexism on the internet -- to 'crediting' a 'smart woman' who's merely 'seizing the opportunity' -- doesn't make what you're saying any less repulsive. If anything, it only makes it worse; you're trying to make this out to be a compliment.

But it's good, at least, that you admit that you're part of the problem regarding rape threats on the internet; it gives me context to parse your statement in. I presume that if you're admitting you're part of the problem, you're also admitting you're among the 'tiny percentage of probably bored teenage men' you mentioned earlier as being largely culpable.

So, if that's true, maybe you'll grow out of this whole 'LOL I'M MAKING PEOPLE MAD ON THE INTERNET' phase you're going through. That, and the whole 'LOL RAPE THREATS /HELP/ THIS WOMAN, GUYS' phase.

Because if you're interested at all in becoming a better person, those are both things you're going to need to grow out of.


You're welcome.

Not believing that the problem exists would not necessarily make you part of the problem. Not directly, anyway. It just makes you self-deluded and ignorant.
Believing that a problem exists, insofar as you seem to admit rape threats exist but suggest that they're actually a positive for the threatened, but diminishing the impact of such a problem makes you part of the problem.

Spoilered for possibly unpleasant language and/or depictions:

Spoiler:
I know it's probably the wrong way to look at the debate, because the circumstances are different and affect people in very different ways, but I keep thinking of this in terms of "what if we replaced the rape threats against women with lynching threats in the South about 50 years ago?" If someone posted on YouTube a video about how African-Americans are depicted badly in media and that no one seems to think this is a bad thing, and gets replies along the lines of "N***** needs to shut up and learn his place before I find some long rope and a tall tree", I'm pretty sure that would be viewed as fundamentally unacceptable (AND BLOODY WELL SHOULD BE) and would probably be quickly moderated off any place that moderates comments. When it comes to women suggesting that their roles and portrayals in media are still mired in old sexist stereotypes, replies such as "I will rape you when I get the chance" are not only tolerated (BY IDIOTS WHO THINK "LOL, IT'S JUST A TROLL, INTERNET COMMENTS DON'T COUNT! LOLOLOLOL") , but lauded by a too-large part of the community, who think "gb2kitchen" and "make me a sandwich" are pithy and relevant replies. You are entirely part of the problem, leady, and by being happy to admit it, you're also a terrible human being. And no amount of douchebag :) will make up for it.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Vash » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm UTC

There have been so many posts that I think I'd do best to not address the specifics of every single one.

First of all, thank you for the kindness. I was having an awful time. I withdraw the more contentious and suspicious parts of my argument. I am used to rougher parts of the internet, as well. I am feeling a bit better now. Trying to sort through this made me feel slightly worse due to things I thought about in response, but it more has to do with my thoughts than with what people said. I also will not delve too deep into this.

Second of all, I did not really mean to start an argument on credibility or polarize the argument to such a degree. I think that ideally every reasonably important and/or likely interpretation of a statement should be responded to, including the possibility that something is actually a rape threat. However, I was tired, not too happy, and taking shortcuts. So, I went for a post that made overall more positive assumptions about people's intentions, partially for comfort.

Continuing, I think that rape threats could even be a joke, although a joke made by a pretty naive, miserable, or angry person. Using a threat as a joke is also not a good thing to do except among very select groups and/or in very select circumstances. I think if you are talking about rape threats rather than jokes that you just have to adjust the seriousness of the argument on all of its contentions, which may also change the argument overall. So, perhaps talking about jokes does not serve as a good substitute.

I can see the argument that rape threats in general have to piggyback on the presence of rape, which can at least be somewhat indicative that rape is present. (Though, not wholly indicative in and of itself, but that was not the point.) So, you could argue that feminism is needed on that basis to some extent. Further, if you think that rape culture is a good argument, this can pretty easily be seen as a symptom of rape culture.

For my last argument in this post on the main point, I think that rape threats, no matter the intention, are always bad. That is the point where the surface is absolutely important regardless of the meaning/intentions. However, I think that stopping people from making rape threats requires responding properly to their meaning. As stated previously, the meanings could vary. Rape culture I think as a term seems to imply that the people in that culture intentionally support rape; despite this, it is still possible to have a nuanced view of intention and believe in rape culture at the same time. I also personally think that fear underlies a lot of the skeptical, harsh, or even hateful statements that other people would call rape culture. I think the term rape culture is itself probably a bit of a strong response and is motivated by fear. So, my primary motivation would be to calm things down, not inflame. I did not mean to inflame anyone. However, clearly, I was not very energetic from the start, so I failed at my goal. Of course, I would like to say that we should just have a relaxed discussion, but really, the only way to have a discussion without people getting inflamed is to make the best arguments possible. So, there is no answer except to try to keep the discussion at a more serious level, and acknowledge deviations from this as a regrettable mistake.

To address some other things, I don't know of any statistics that show how common it is to know someone victimized by rape or be close to a person who has been victimized. (BTW, rape is only a subset of sexual assault. They should not be used equivalently.) I think most people (unless they live in very small towns, for example) probably know someone who has been a victim of rape, and especially sexual assault. However, it is important to acknowledge that not everyone is or has been close to someone who has been a victim of rape, in part because that might explain why they may not be as sympathetic to rape victims if they are not. (Further, if someone has been alienated from someone they were close to that was a victim of rape, that might also change how they respond somewhat.) Also, if I recall, crime statistics do show that rapists are largely serial-raping high-functioning sociopaths, and are pretty rare (8% of men IIRC which I may not, and rape of men by women is not considered rape in the US by the FBI definition, so the report I read said nothing about those women). This is not contradictory with statistics on friends/acquaintance rape (something that I imagine the dissenting response might come from), because high-functioning sociopaths can blend into social groups, be someone's spouse, etc.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:17 pm UTC

Vash wrote:Continuing, I think that rape threats could even be a joke, although a joke made by a pretty naive, miserable, or angry person.
You know, I wouldn't even go that far; it stretches the definition of 'threat' (specifically, that the speaker must believe there is some significant chance that the target will take the statement seriously), but I think you can be a wholly intelligent, well-put-together person and still make rape threats -- oblivious to the fact that they're rape threats! Or to put this another way: I think it's possible for intelligent, good-natured people to say something and be completely oblivious to how that something will be taken.

Of course, this might fall under your use of the word 'naive'. That being said...
Vash wrote:Using a threat as a joke is also not a good thing to do except among very select groups and/or in very select circumstances. I think if you are talking about rape threats rather than jokes that you just have to adjust the seriousness of the argument on all of its contentions, which may also change the argument overall. So, perhaps talking about jokes does not serve as a good substitute.
Right; language is all about context -- and with context, the meaning of language can be completely subverted. There are contexts where what we would presume to be a rape threat can actually be something else entirely! -- I think the big 'lesson' here, though, is that context is not the comment section of Anita Sarkeesian's videos. I would argue that the context under which a rape threat ceases to be a rape threat is very limited, and involves non-public spaces where you're sure everyone in that space is comfortable perceiving a 'rape threat' as something else (such as a joke). But those spaces are very difficult to construct; the more people 'in' them, the more careful you must be!
Vash wrote:For my last argument in this post on the main point, I think that rape threats, no matter the intention, are always bad. That is the point where the surface is absolutely important regardless of the meaning/intentions. However, I think that stopping people from making rape threats requires responding properly to their meaning. As stated previously, the meanings could vary. Rape culture I think as a term seems to imply that the people in that culture intentionally support rape; despite this, it is still possible to have a nuanced view of intention and believe in rape culture at the same time. I also personally think that fear underlies a lot of the skeptical, harsh, or even hateful statements that other people would call rape culture. I think the term rape culture is itself probably a bit of a strong response and is motivated by fear. So, my primary motivation would be to calm things down, not inflame. I did not mean to inflame anyone. However, clearly, I was not very energetic from the start, so I failed at my goal. Of course, I would like to say that we should just have a relaxed discussion, but really, the only way to have a discussion without people getting inflamed is to make the best arguments possible. So, there is no answer except to try to keep the discussion at a more serious level, and acknowledge deviations from this as a regrettable mistake.
I think if you agree that rape threats are always bad, you pretty much have the point of it; I would add that there are certain circumstances where rape threats 'cease' to be bad, but those circumstances are united by one single quality: They are circumstances where a rape threat is no longer actually a rape threat. Identifying those circumstances is... very, very tricky. So I think as a general rule, 'Never say things that could reasonably be construed as a rape threat or a rape affirmation' is an excellent one to have.

I understand your resistance to the term 'rape culture' re: intention; I don't think it's reasonable to presume that people are consciously 'pro-rape'. All I want to impart to you is this idea: In this very thread, we have someone arguing that Anita Sarkeesian may have solicited rape threats by talking about sexism. Or, another way to put it: The act of a woman opening her mouth is, in certain contexts, an invitation to threaten her with rape.

And this isn't an uncommon perspective.

I think that's largely what is meant by rape culture; that we exist in a culture that supports ideas like this -- that refuses to treat rape threats as rape threats -- that refuses to denounce rape threats as terrible things -- that treats rape in a very neurotic, contradictory way. I think there's a deep, underlying dysfunction there -- both in the expression of rape-threats and in our swiftness to defend them (and even describe them as somehow beneficial to those who receive them). When describing this dysfunction, I tend toward the term 'rape culture'. Maybe it's a bad word because it implies other things; if that's the case, I'm happy to find a different word to describe the dysfunctional way we as a culture deal with rape.

All that being said, I agree with you regarding the importance of de-escalation in all dialogues; keeping things civil, quiet, and calm are all very important. It is very hard for me to do this when people say things I find deeply repugnant -- but I also believe that the importance of speaking gently increases in relation to the difficulty of speaking gently.

Or, to put it another way: The more I want to yell, the more important it becomes that I don't.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby icanus » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:59 pm UTC

Sarkeesian recently re-posted a fanfic someone wrote about her murdering Randy Pitchford, the CEO of Gearbox because she doesn't like his games.
Her comment about a story that has her shooting someone and gloating as he bleeds to death? "I kinda like it".

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby ameretrifle » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:54 am UTC

icanus wrote:Sarkeesian recently re-posted a fanfic someone wrote about her murdering Randy Pitchford, the CEO of Gearbox because she doesn't like his games.
Her comment about a story that has her shooting someone and gloating as he bleeds to death? "I kinda like it".

It also includes her hitching a ride with Spiderman. Duke Nukem is a dessicated corpse. And the quote happens to be "while it’s certainly both surreal and bizarre, I think I kinda like it".

But it's the humorless feminists who don't know what a "parody" is.

Why the christ is this bullshit supposed to be news. Why is it suddenly perfectly okay to criticize trivial tangential misrepresented bullshit just because it's posted by someone you hate for criticizing what you think is trivial tangential misrepresented bullshit. How do you do that and think it's her hypocrisy you're making obvious.

Fuck it. Thanks for the fic rec. I'd give it somewhere around a B-, not up there with the real talent but a competent bit of writing.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby elasto » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:10 am UTC

As always, I think there are (at least) two aspects to this rape threat business.

The first is that overwhelmingly it is about people attempting to be as offensive as possible. If she was a cancer survivor the comments would be 'I hope the cancer comes back and eats your c*nt' or whatever. Some people simply derive a great deal of pleasure by knowing they've made someone feel worse. Gives them a sense of power or something I guess.

Sarkeesian, as a veteran of the net, will know this, and so will discount the specifics of what's said. It's in that sense that the threats are not credible.

However, other aspects of this remain.

First, there's a not insignificant chance Sarkeesian has suffered some kind of sexual assault irl, and these statements may cause her to remember it. Indeed, those making the statements may well be hoping it's true and she does, because more hurt and offense is more pleasure for them.

Second, even if she hasn't, and the specifics of the offensive statements she can easily brush aside, simply the fact that someone wants to hurt you is hurtful. Sometimes it's actually the most hurtful aspect about it. That's harder to get past.

Third, it's obvious these trolls don't care about the collateral damage: There will be many reading for whom such trolling will bring up painful flashbacks to actual rapes and sexual assaults.

If these statements were made at a UK person, and could be traced to UK trolls, they would receive jailtime for them, and I personally don't have much problem with that. (Well, I think probably a fine and community service is sufficient - most of these people are cowards and wouldn't risk doing it twice, but I prefer jailtime to just an open-season for bullying)

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:23 am UTC

icanus wrote:Sarkeesian recently re-posted a fanfic someone wrote about her murdering Randy Pitchford, the CEO of Gearbox because she doesn't like his games.
Her comment about a story that has her shooting someone and gloating as he bleeds to death? "I kinda like it".
Like ameretrifle, I'm confused; is the fact that this person may 'kinda like' a terrible thing supposed to be taken as hypocritical? Or are you arguing that the fan-fic qualifies as a death-threat, and that Anita Sarkeesian is affirming it by saying she 'kinda likes' it?
elasto wrote:If these statements were made at a UK person, and could be traced to UK trolls, they would receive jailtime for them, and I personally don't have much problem with that. (Well, I think probably a fine and community service is sufficient - most of these people are cowards and wouldn't risk doing it twice, but I prefer jailtime to just an open-season for bullying)
It strikes me that a lot of the people making these threats are probably emotionally troubled teens; it also strikes me that among the worst things you can do to an emotionally troubled teen is throw them to the mercy of a legal system.

EDIT: I don't actually know of the majority of threat-makers are emotionally troubled teens. That's just my completely wild and largely unsubstantiated guess.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby addams » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:49 am UTC

I am pleased the this conversation is happening.
I am also pleased that this conversation is a civil conversation.

Please keep going. Please keep typing about this.
Please. umm. I am not able to participate, much.

umm. oh, dear. I am one of the victims and I HATE it.
it is not a good idea to get victims caught up in The Battle.

What is the Real Issue? Rape Culture? Yes. We seem to have a problem.
Rape Culture? We are level headed, educated people. We will not stoop to name calling. (much)

Rape Culture may be as nice a way to describe what we are seeing as any words are going to be.
Is Culture a Choice? It is for some.

For most it is Falling Off a Log.
Most Fall the way others fall.
Like Gravity. We Fall That Way!-----> <-------Or; That way!

It does not take as much time as The Common people seem to think to cause Cultural Shifts.
Foul Violent Language and Images on a screen translate into Foul Violent Act in Real 3D.

That is a Fact!
What are you attempting to balance?

Our rights to be free?
Against our rights to be free?

See? You have your work cut out for you.
I wish you well. Most posters on this forum seem to be thinking people.
You may very well find answers that will benefit many more than the people typing here.

Do we need a Cultural Shift? I think, "Yes!"
Is it manipulative? Well?

DipShits that don't think can not be accused of OverThinking.
Those that help set up the Range of Acceptable Behaviors for our lower IQ brothers and sisters have responsibilities.

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No TV is better than the Trash we see as Role Models.
The woman suffer and so do the men.

We are Not all that Trashy!
We do Not need to Act that way!

But; We are Monkey See; Monkey Do.
Who can argue with that?

Not idiots.
The Military uses training that allows the Monkeys to see other Monkeys do what The Superior Monkeys want the Monkeys to do.
The very least we can do is say, "No."

No to the coarseness. It will be tricky to be able to remain spontaneous and not stilted in our language and behaviors while we demand self control and personal responsibility from our selfs and each other.

I don't want to give up the word, "Fuck."
I have listened to Women and Men be abusive while never hauling out one 'fuck'.

If you get the Rape Culture to turn into a Culture of Quiet Dignity punctuated with outbursts of Joy,
I will give up the word, "Fuck".

We will both be giving up something that is rooted in our internal and external cultures.
Good Luck. Let me know when I must scour 'Fuck' from my vocabulary.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby icanus » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:12 am UTC

ameretrifle wrote:Why the christ is this bullshit supposed to be news. Why is it suddenly perfectly okay to criticize trivial tangential misrepresented bullshit just because it's posted by someone you hate for criticizing what you think is trivial tangential misrepresented bullshit. How do you do that and think it's her hypocrisy you're making obvious.

I think you're confusing me with someone who's defending the abuse Sarkeesian recieves.

I don't hate her, or even disagree with her arguments that DiD is overused in games and that women are often treated abysmally in the gaming community - I do think that if she's going to decry people who post abusive content about people they disagree with, she should probably show some awareness of the type of content she endorses herself.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Red Hal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:13 pm UTC

There's a difference between "This is fan fiction which I quite like" and "Lolz I'm going to rape you." You *can* see that, right?
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Woopate » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think Icanus posted that in the context of rape threats. I read it more of a "she condemns tropes against women as dangerous but 'kinda' likes a fiction where she murders a person who exists in real life. " Talking about the the content of Anita Saarkesian's work, rather than this metadiscussion about people's response to it.

I did not see the word rape or threat in either of Icanus's posts.

I could be wrong though. Nor do I necessarily agree. People can like what they want, even Anita Saarkesian.

EDIT::I reread and found myself totally off base. I shall leave it here though. I echo Red Hal's sentiment now.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

Of course there's a difference, but do you think people here would be totally cool with it if somebody linked fiction where Anita Sarkeesian is brutally murdered and said that they "kind like it"?

Do you think Melissa McEwan is going to write a blog post about eliminationism directed at video game producers?
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby icanus » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:There's a difference between "This is fan fiction which I quite like" and "Lolz I'm going to rape you." You *can* see that, right?
I can. I'm not sure why being able to see that means that I'm not allowed to think that both rape threats and murder-fantasy-fiction are bad things, though.
Woopate wrote:Talking about the the content of Anita Saarkesian's work, rather than this metadiscussion about people's response to it.
Well, no-one on either side seems particularly interested in doing that - but as it happens she does complain about "pornographic male power fantasies" in a couple of her videos, while kinda liking the same thing with the roles flipped.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:09 pm UTC

The thing with sexism, racism, and similar -isms is that the situation is not symmetrical. That's rather the whole issue at hand, really.

As such, pointing out that something wouldn't be okay with sexes or races switched isn't sufficient to prove that it's problematic as-is.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Red Hal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

icanus wrote:
Red Hal wrote:There's a difference between "This is fan fiction which I quite like" and "Lolz I'm going to rape you." You *can* see that, right?
I can. I'm not sure why being able to see that means that I'm not allowed to think that both rape threats and murder-fantasy-fiction are bad things, though.
No, you're not allowed to think that, because that is not something that can be allowed or disallowed in first place. FWIW I agree with you that both are bad, but there is a difference between something clearly marked as fiction and something which at face value is a credible real-world threat, which is the point I was making.

Of course, many films have riffed off the plot of a conspiracy to kill the President...
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Telchar » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The thing with sexism, racism, and similar -isms is that the situation is not symmetrical. That's rather the whole issue at hand, really.

As such, pointing out that something wouldn't be okay with sexes or races switched isn't sufficient to prove that it's problematic as-is.


Good thing no one is doing that with sexism or racism or any ism. They're doing it with murder fantasy.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:31 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The thing with sexism, racism, and similar -isms is that the situation is not symmetrical. That's rather the whole issue at hand, really.

As such, pointing out that something wouldn't be okay with sexes or races switched isn't sufficient to prove that it's problematic as-is.
Fair, but regardless of whether or not it's problematic, it's at least in poor taste.

My problem with rape threats has less to do with the social impact of rape threats and more their impact on the individual receiving them; social context changes that impact -- so it might be fair to say that a fan-fic with a male game designer being killed is less likely to negatively impact that male game-designer than a rape threat targeting a woman who critiques sexism. But if that male game designer takes it just as seriously, I wouldn't tell him he's wrong to do so.

Or, to put it another way: I think it's okay to use violent imagery in our dialogue so long as we're both respectful of and concerned with what impact that imagery could have.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:40 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Do you think Melissa McEwan is going to write a blog post about eliminationism directed at video game producers?


First, have a look at the actual piece. Its quite short, and quite silly. Is Pitchford brutally murdered? There's no real gore, the murder is, I think, correctly interpreted as an act of criticism, as is the whole piece. The whole thing is... "while it’s certainly both surreal and bizarre, I think I kinda like it", as Sarkeesian said.

Now, I don't really see how you could write a similar piece, with a similarly silly tone, about Sarkeesian (it can't be about duke nukem, for instance). And if you did, it would have an underlying truth to it that the original piece didn't: feminists have been murdered for getting up in the establishments faces'.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Do you think Melissa McEwan is going to write a blog post about eliminationism directed at video game producers?


The first time it happens in reality, I expect lots of blog posts about it. Hell, there are plenty of blog posts out there right now, and its a story, probably in the same blogs where people tell you that video game violence doesn't mean anything. But no, activists who are about one kind of thing aren't obliged to be equal opportunity outrage. When they are like that, they tend to be called a rent-a-crowd, and their entire sincerity is called into question.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Telchar » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:46 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Vash wrote:Continuing, I think that rape threats could even be a joke, although a joke made by a pretty naive, miserable, or angry person.
You know, I wouldn't even go that far; it stretches the definition of 'threat' (specifically, that the speaker must believe there is some significant chance that the target will take the statement seriously), but I think you can be a wholly intelligent, well-put-together person and still make rape threats -- oblivious to the fact that they're rape threats! Or to put this another way: I think it's possible for intelligent, good-natured people to say something and be completely oblivious to how that something will be taken.


Rewinding the conversation a bit. Apparently threats are not determined by whether a person feels threatened but the likelihood the threat is carried out.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Magnanimous » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:51 am UTC

Vash wrote:Rape culture I think as a term seems to imply that the people in that culture intentionally support rape; despite this, it is still possible to have a nuanced view of intention and believe in rape culture at the same time. I also personally think that fear underlies a lot of the skeptical, harsh, or even hateful statements that other people would call rape culture. I think the term rape culture is itself probably a bit of a strong response and is motivated by fear.
The Great Hippo wrote:I think that's largely what is meant by rape culture; that we exist in a culture that supports ideas like this -- that refuses to treat rape threats as rape threats -- that refuses to denounce rape threats as terrible things -- that treats rape in a very neurotic, contradictory way. I think there's a deep, underlying dysfunction there -- both in the expression of rape-threats and in our swiftness to defend them (and even describe them as somehow beneficial to those who receive them). When describing this dysfunction, I tend toward the term 'rape culture'. Maybe it's a bad word because it implies other things; if that's the case, I'm happy to find a different word to describe the dysfunctional way we as a culture deal with rape.
My problem with the term "rape culture" is that (in my experience) people's first reaction to it is often "but our society thinks rape is a terrible thing" --> "I don't seriously support the idea of raping people and I don't get why you think I do" --> "You don't know what you're talking about". Rape culture implies a culture that promotes rape, which is correct overall, but it's more useful to say our culture discourages discouraging the promotion of rape. If your goal is to get people to consider how their actions contribute to the high rates of sexual assault and rape, I think a phrase like "joke culture" or "victim culture" or something would be more effective.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby phlip » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:02 am UTC

Magnanimous wrote:I think a phrase like "joke culture" or "victim culture" or something would be more effective.

"Joke culture" has a much weaker impact as a phrase, though... jokes are only one small part of the rape culture problem. And "victim culture" already exists as a descriptor, as a sneering put-down to go with the "poor people are just lazy, but pretend to be victims to get government handouts" meme, and other similar ideas... I think avoiding any appearance of an overlap with that whole bag of terrible is a good plan.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Magnanimous » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:13 am UTC

Victimization culture, then, or just sexual victimization? Or rape victim(ization) culture. Or maybe I'm wrong and calling it something different won't change discussions.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby phlip » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:21 am UTC

Magnanimous wrote:Or maybe I'm wrong and calling it something different won't change discussions.

Usually it doesn't, no. It just makes the concern trolls take a different angle of attack when they want to make their "you should call it something else" derails, but other than that nothing changes.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The thing with sexism, racism, and similar -isms is that the situation is not symmetrical. That's rather the whole issue at hand, really.

As such, pointing out that something wouldn't be okay with sexes or races switched isn't sufficient to prove that it's problematic as-is.


Good thing no one is doing that with sexism or racism or any ism. They're doing it with murder fantasy.
With the sexes switched.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby LastFast » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:00 pm UTC

Has anyone seen that lecture Anita gave at Santa Monica?


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