Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5933
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Angua » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:32 am UTC

This is really interesting - it looks at the reasons as well as the prevalence.. It would be good to see this done in more countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24021573
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

Chen
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Chen » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:56 am UTC

Have you ever had sex with your partner when you knew she didn't want to but you thought she should agree because she's your wife/ partner?


I'm curious as to how this question was translated for these countries. Does "when you knew she didn't want to" mean that she wasn't consenting? Its a confusing way to word that sentence I find even in English. I'm not really sure why they didn't write it as something like "Have you ever had sex with your partner when she were not consenting but you thought they should agree because she's your wife/partner?" It seems the information they were trying to get from this question was if people raped because they felt the partner SHOULD agree because of the relationship, but you muddy the waters by writing in the manner presented (let alone how this was translated).

Spambot5546
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:39 pm UTC

I saw an article the other day, and I can't find it now which sucks because it would be useful to link it, that broke down the relationships between survivors and their assailants prior to the assault. In some 26% of sexual assaults it was a current or former "intimate partner".

Anyway, here's the part that scares me. The prevailing wisdom is that rapists are typically from a (relatively) small population of repeat offenders. It's also estimated that between one in four and one in three women in the first world will be sexually assaulted. So it would stand to reason that the portion of men who have committed a sexual assault would be lower than 1/4, probably significantly so. So if huge portions of these populations admit to having done it, and presumably most would be serial offenders like here, how common must victimization be!?
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby DSenette » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Have you ever had sex with your partner when you knew she didn't want to but you thought she should agree because she's your wife/ partner?


I'm curious as to how this question was translated for these countries. Does "when you knew she didn't want to" mean that she wasn't consenting? Its a confusing way to word that sentence I find even in English. I'm not really sure why they didn't write it as something like "Have you ever had sex with your partner when she were not consenting but you thought they should agree because she's your wife/partner?" It seems the information they were trying to get from this question was if people raped because they felt the partner SHOULD agree because of the relationship, but you muddy the waters by writing in the manner presented (let alone how this was translated).

how is "you knew your partner didn't want to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway" different from "you knew your partner wasn't consenting to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway"?

is it in the want portion? like "I don't want to do that...but go ahead anyway"? because that situation still implies that if it weren't for the implied power differential in the relationship or the implied "duties", that you would totally NOT give consent to have sex in that situation...which is totally coercion.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Telchar » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:11 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
Chen wrote:
Have you ever had sex with your partner when you knew she didn't want to but you thought she should agree because she's your wife/ partner?


I'm curious as to how this question was translated for these countries. Does "when you knew she didn't want to" mean that she wasn't consenting? Its a confusing way to word that sentence I find even in English. I'm not really sure why they didn't write it as something like "Have you ever had sex with your partner when she were not consenting but you thought they should agree because she's your wife/partner?" It seems the information they were trying to get from this question was if people raped because they felt the partner SHOULD agree because of the relationship, but you muddy the waters by writing in the manner presented (let alone how this was translated).

how is "you knew your partner didn't want to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway" different from "you knew your partner wasn't consenting to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway"?

is it in the want portion? like "I don't want to do that...but go ahead anyway"? because that situation still implies that if it weren't for the implied power differential in the relationship or the implied "duties", that you would totally NOT give consent to have sex in that situation...which is totally coercion.


You're assuming it's out of some implied power differential and not wanting to make the other person happy. I've had sex with my partner when it wasn't the #1 thing I wanted to be doing, nor even something that titillated me at the time, but I knew it was something she wanted/needed and I was okay with giving that to her. It's not always coercion to acquiesce to the needs of someone other than yourself.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:41 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I saw an article the other day, and I can't find it now which sucks because it would be useful to link it, that broke down the relationships between survivors and their assailants prior to the assault. In some 26% of sexual assaults it was a current or former "intimate partner".

Anyway, here's the part that scares me. The prevailing wisdom is that rapists are typically from a (relatively) small population of repeat offenders. It's also estimated that between one in four and one in three women in the first world will be sexually assaulted. So it would stand to reason that the portion of men who have committed a sexual assault would be lower than 1/4, probably significantly so. So if huge portions of these populations admit to having done it, and presumably most would be serial offenders like here, how common must victimization be!?


It may be that cultural differences mean the data there isn't going to be representative of the first world.


Also, yeah, you can consent to doing something you don't particularly want to do. However, I don't know any asian languages, etc, so I can't speak to the exact phrasing.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby DSenette » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
DSenette wrote:
Chen wrote:
Have you ever had sex with your partner when you knew she didn't want to but you thought she should agree because she's your wife/ partner?


I'm curious as to how this question was translated for these countries. Does "when you knew she didn't want to" mean that she wasn't consenting? Its a confusing way to word that sentence I find even in English. I'm not really sure why they didn't write it as something like "Have you ever had sex with your partner when she were not consenting but you thought they should agree because she's your wife/partner?" It seems the information they were trying to get from this question was if people raped because they felt the partner SHOULD agree because of the relationship, but you muddy the waters by writing in the manner presented (let alone how this was translated).

how is "you knew your partner didn't want to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway" different from "you knew your partner wasn't consenting to have sex with you, but you had sex with them anyway"?

is it in the want portion? like "I don't want to do that...but go ahead anyway"? because that situation still implies that if it weren't for the implied power differential in the relationship or the implied "duties", that you would totally NOT give consent to have sex in that situation...which is totally coercion.


You're assuming it's out of some implied power differential and not wanting to make the other person happy. I've had sex with my partner when it wasn't the #1 thing I wanted to be doing, nor even something that titillated me at the time, but I knew it was something she wanted/needed and I was okay with giving that to her. It's not always coercion to acquiesce to the needs of someone other than yourself.

in my view that's completely different than not wanting to have sex with someone. the reason that you want to have sex with your partner isn't as relevant in this situation.

you ultimately did want to have sex with your partner to please her. it's completely different to "I don't want to, and i'm not going to"...which can still be phrased as "I don't want to have sex with you" which should be the same as "I don't consent to having sex with you".
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:in my view that's completely different than not wanting to have sex with someone. the reason that you want to have sex with your partner isn't as relevant in this situation.

you ultimately did want to have sex with your partner to please her. it's completely different to "I don't want to, and i'm not going to"...which can still be phrased as "I don't want to have sex with you" which should be the same as "I don't consent to having sex with you".


It's a linguistic thing. You two ultimately have the same standard, but you express it differently. This has significant implications for test question phrasing, though. Could easily phrase it such that you get garbage results.

Chen
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Chen » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:15 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It's a linguistic thing. You two ultimately have the same standard, but you express it differently. This has significant implications for test question phrasing, though. Could easily phrase it such that you get garbage results.


Yes this back and forth here is EXACTLY the reason I wondered how that question was translated. I can see even in English how it can be interpreted in the way DSenette took or OR in the way Telchar did and hence a mistranslation (or even a subtlety to the translation) could highly skew the answer to this question.

"Knew she didn't want to" is not precise. I may not want to eat Chinese food, but if my partner really wanted to I might decide to go along with it anyways. It doesn't mean I'm being forced to eat Chinese food or even that I didn't consent to eat Chinese food.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Роберт » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:You're assuming it's out of some implied power differential and not wanting to make the other person happy. I've had sex with my partner when it wasn't the #1 thing I wanted to be doing, nor even something that titillated me at the time, but I knew it was something she wanted/needed and I was okay with giving that to her. It's not always coercion to acquiesce to the needs of someone other than yourself.

This is true. That wording could easily be interpreted as a situation like this. This is not Telchar being raped. This is Telchar choosing and consenting to sex when he didn't personally want to, because he cared about the other person.

So I think the question is bad because it's too easy to interpret differently than the intent.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby leady » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

http://www.engagingmen.net/profile/emmafulu

speaks to the original intent and desired outcome of the survery (the reports author)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:06 pm UTC

Good intentions and $5 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10500
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

I'd like to see a report comparing rape rates (rapist rates?) to gender ratios. Eg, do regions with high incidence of sex selective abortions (India, China) have higher rates of rape.

Queue
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Queue » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:17 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:It's a linguistic thing. You two ultimately have the same standard, but you express it differently. This has significant implications for test question phrasing, though. Could easily phrase it such that you get garbage results.

Yes this back and forth here is EXACTLY the reason I wondered how that question was translated. I can see even in English how it can be interpreted in the way DSenette took or OR in the way Telchar did and hence a mistranslation (or even a subtlety to the translation) could highly skew the answer to this question.

I don't know if nitpicking over the exact interpretation would invalidate a significant portion of the results, but I do think that survey questions that require the interviewee to be more than reasonably certain of the thoughts and intentions of another person, are kind of screwy. Violent rape and rape with obvious coercion are far easier to identify and be dealt with.

Chen
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Chen » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:19 pm UTC

leady wrote:http://www.engagingmen.net/profile/emmafulu

speaks to the original intent and desired outcome of the survery (the reports author)


Uh where does it speak to this on that page?

User avatar
eSOANEM
:D
Posts: 3652
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:39 pm UTC
Location: Grantabrycge

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:23 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Have you ever had sex with your partner when you knew she didn't want to but you thought she should agree because she's your wife/ partner?


I'm curious as to how this question was translated for these countries. Does "when you knew she didn't want to" mean that she wasn't consenting? Its a confusing way to word that sentence I find even in English. I'm not really sure why they didn't write it as something like "Have you ever had sex with your partner when she were not consenting but you thought they should agree because she's your wife/partner?" It seems the information they were trying to get from this question was if people raped because they felt the partner SHOULD agree because of the relationship, but you muddy the waters by writing in the manner presented (let alone how this was translated).


The wording you use would not work at all though. The article says that the most common reason was that the people felt they had a sexual entitlement; e.g. they felt that agreeing to be in a relationship with/marrying them was consent to any future sexual activities. As such, they would not give an accurate answer to the question as you word it.
my pronouns are they

Magnanimous wrote:(fuck the macrons)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10500
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

How do you move from a rape culture to a less rapey one? I mean, if you have a society where bride kidnapping is a way of life, how fast can you move to a culture that has a 'western bias' of consent?

User avatar
Yoshisummons
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:47 pm UTC
Location: Happily curled up in a cardboard box alone

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Yoshisummons » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:11 am UTC

Start off by playing soap operas over the radio that involve families with a more level power field among couples for starters. Super cheap in terms of social engineering but I'm not saying it's entirely clear from a moral standpoint. Education for all is also definitely another method of making specific cultures less prone to rape(if that's a thing and speaking of which does anyone even have reports about the rate of men that committed rape in western countries?).
eran_rathan wrote:Listen to the man with the cone on his head - these are Words of WisdomTM.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How do you move from a rape culture to a less rapey one? I mean, if you have a society where bride kidnapping is a way of life, how fast can you move to a culture that has a 'western bias' of consent?


Honestly, people moving cultures adjust fairly fast. India has a crazy culture with regards to gender, but the folks that come over here to learn or work seem to acclimate pretty quickly.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10500
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:28 am UTC

Umm... you do realize that most Indians who move to the US to work tend to be better educated and wealthier than most Indians back in India, right?

You know, like most immigrants?

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:53 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Umm... you do realize that most Indians who move to the US to work tend to be better educated and wealthier than most Indians back in India, right?

You know, like most immigrants?


Oh sure, there's a selection bias there...but even so, they're certainly exposed to that culture, and a lot of it seems to be unconscious stuff that you don't realize is off until you go somewhere without it.

Seeing other cultures is amazing for getting past cultural blinders, IMO.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6802
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:15 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Umm... you do realize that most Indians who move to the US to work tend to be better educated and wealthier than most Indians back in India, right?

You know, like most immigrants?


Oh sure, there's a selection bias there...but even so, they're certainly exposed to that culture, and a lot of it seems to be unconscious stuff that you don't realize is off until you go somewhere without it.

Seeing other cultures is amazing for getting past cultural blinders, IMO.

Honor killings.

Queue
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Queue » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:36 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How do you move from a rape culture to a less rapey one? I mean, if you have a society where bride kidnapping is a way of life, how fast can you move to a culture that has a 'western bias' of consent?

If you really want a one-stop-fixit for the problem, that ignores the issue of addressing misshapen culture, sociopathy/mental illness, and/or frustrated sexual selection, you could always opt for the Charles James Napier solution to traditions you don't agree with, but that kind of does damage to completely other parts of society.

I'd argue that step one is general economic prosperity; some kind of infrastructure you can build a reliable police force and solid mental health care and education system on.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Honor killings.


It ain't instant or perfect, but I observe that honor killings are really not that common in immigrant populations. They are highly publicized, sure, because they're very shocking to us, but it's really not an everyday thing.

I suppose one could make the argument though, that the effect is a lot lessened if the scale of immigration is so large that they essentially just set up a pocket culture in the destination country.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10500
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:45 pm UTC

Queue wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:How do you move from a rape culture to a less rapey one? I mean, if you have a society where bride kidnapping is a way of life, how fast can you move to a culture that has a 'western bias' of consent?

If you really want a one-stop-fixit for the problem, that ignores the issue of addressing misshapen culture, sociopathy/mental illness, and/or frustrated sexual selection, you could always opt for the Charles James Napier solution to traditions you don't agree with, but that kind of does damage to completely other parts of society.

I'd argue that step one is general economic prosperity; some kind of infrastructure you can build a reliable police force and solid mental health care and education system on.


And if the culture itself is a barrier to economic prosperity? What with the suppression of minorities and women being a rather big harm to the economy and all...

Queue
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Queue » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:And if the culture itself is a barrier to economic prosperity? What with the suppression of minorities and women being a rather big harm to the economy and all...

Hasn't stopped societies in the past from acquiring wealth and stability. I'm not a history buff, but what little I remember seems to show that every time someone has taken it upon themselves to alter a culture they didn't like, it was done either via significantly increased trade...or at gunpoint.

Whether or not you're right, though, I'd say that if you don't have that stability, on what are you going to build a decent society? One in which these newly acquired beliefs are actually enforced in law, with something other than the honour system.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10500
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

Historically, the societies and cultures that were naturally less stable were wiped out by the ones that were more stable. The Aztecs' constant warfare and oppression of minorities caused quite a bit of unrest. Sparta collapsed because, it turns out training your children via starvation and hard labor does not produce the best soldiers any more than lighting them on fire makes them into the best firefighters.

Trade works too, but the people have to have something worth trading to begin with. The Mongols kept a lot of cultures alive and thriving via their trade networks (the empire outlasted the Golden Horde for a reason), but the people with nothing to trade were put to the sword.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Historically, the societies and cultures that were naturally less stable were wiped out by the ones that were more stable. The Aztecs' constant warfare and oppression of minorities caused quite a bit of unrest. Sparta collapsed because, it turns out training your children via starvation and hard labor does not produce the best soldiers any more than lighting them on fire makes them into the best firefighters.


It does kill the weak ones, though, which I suppose makes your society appear strong in the short term, at least superficially. There's also the whole reliance on slaves thing.

But yeah, selection favors stable cultures. The government of the US, etc is not without flaws, obviously, but it is reasonably stable. Of course, there's a lot of potential bias there...for all I know, it could destabilize ten years from now, leaving it not particularly stellar in terms of length of existence.

Queue
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Re: Almost a quarter of men admit to rape in parts of Asia

Postby Queue » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:17 pm UTC

(Side-track about the Spartans in spoiler text.)
Spoiler:
Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Sparta collapsed because, it turns out training your children via starvation and hard labor does not produce the best soldiers any more than lighting them on fire makes them into the best firefighters.

It does kill the weak ones, though, which I suppose makes your society appear strong in the short term, at least superficially. There's also the whole reliance on slaves thing.

It's an aside, but I think it's worth arguing that although fascination with the Laconians went on for a long time (and is enjoying a resurgence), the whole "Spartan parents were really mean to their kids" thing was probably an Athenian stereotype and not a widespread element of their culture. They also weren't really what I'd call a time-tested civilization. The amount of time that they were successful at all as an independant society was probably between the reforms of Lycurgus and the battle at Leuctra - a span of, say, 300 years.

But yeah, selection favors stable cultures. The government of the US, etc is not without flaws, obviously, but it is reasonably stable. Of course, there's a lot of potential bias there...for all I know, it could destabilize ten years from now, leaving it not particularly stellar in terms of length of existence.

The whole point was that it's hard to forcibly rearrange a culture if you don't plan on sticking around to enforce the new rules for a few generations. The most reasonable way I could think of to 'change' a culture sans invasion is with profitable trade agreements, interdependant tourist industries, and the ability to freely share one's own values (via things like the Internet).


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CorruptUser, duodecimus, gd1, Link and 15 guests