Southern Methodist University student solves rape

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby skeptical scientist » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:43 am UTC

The article wrote:At the beginning of this school year, SMU students noticed a
large number of alleged sexual assaults on campus, but is the blame being
placed in the right place? Of course the perpetrators are the ones responsible
for the crimes, but to solve the problem they can’t be the only ones taking blame.

That is not giving cyclists advice for getting through traffic circles safely; it's saying when a cyclist is run over by a drunk motorist who ran a red light while speeding, that it's probably the cyclist's fault for not being sufficiently attentive.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:47 am UTC

I actually do think the article crossed the line into victim blaming.

My post was more of a response to the accusations of victim blaming of posters in this thread, who advocated individual responsibility.

#########

Also, a much more honest rewording of the text that you listed would be.

At the beginning of this school year, SMU students noticed a
large number of alleged sexual assaults on campus, but is the blame being
placed in the right place? Of course the perpetrators are the ones responsible
for the crimes
, but to solve the problem they can’t be the only ones taking blame.


it's saying when a cyclist is run over by a drunk motorist who ran a red light while speeding, of course the perpetrators are the ones responsible
for the crimes
, but to solve the problem they can’t be the only ones taking blame.


Of course its suggesting that the cyclist should take some blame, which I do think is wrong and is victim blaming. But your rewording that it was probably the cyclists fault, is an extremely dishonest interpretation of the words that you quoted.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby elasto » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:58 am UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:That is not giving cyclists advice for getting through traffic circles safely; it's saying when a cyclist is run over by a drunk motorist who ran a red light while speeding, that it's probably the cyclist's fault for not being sufficiently attentive.

Or is it like when a person goes to sleep with their front door open, then awakes to find they've been burgled - the explanation of why they got burgled and not their neighbor is probably to do with the fact their front door was left open...

Analogies are fun!

As BattleMoose says, words like 'fault', 'blame' etc are extremely unhelpful - in the original article as much as in your quote. The reason why they are unhelpful is there is an assumption of a fixed amount of blame to share around: If the victim is partially to blame that means the perpetrator isn't totally to blame - which I hope we all agree isn't the case. The perpetrator is always 100% to blame and 100% at fault even if there is an explanation as to why they did what they did. This is true for the drunk driver, the opportunistic burglar or the guy raping the woman passed out in his bed.

For another thing, all this misses the fact there is a context to discussions like this: I would not say the same thing to my daughter about to leave for university as I would say to my daughter if she got raped at university - and I'd say a different thing again to my son if he raped someone at university. Taking something intended for one context and thinking it'd be the right thing to say in a different context is highly disingenuous.

To my daughter about to leave for university I'd say things like:
- Never leave your drink unprotected while you go to the toilet; Finish it first or give it to a trusted female friend.
- Never get so drunk you pass out - it's not safe if you're alone and not safe if you're with someone else.
- etc.

To my daughter who'd been raped - it'd be completely crass and insensitive to give the above common sense advice - whether or not she had 'been at fault' and failed to follow it. In fact, she'd probably be needing the opposite kind of advice in future - she'd probably be completely paranoid and find it impossible to trust anyone again. I'd be advising her things like: Not every man is a rapist; Take your time but you have to slowly learn to trust again etc.

To my son who'd raped someone, if he told me 'Well, she passed out in my bed! She didn't even know I did it so where's the harm?' I wouldn't say 'ah yes, who can blame you, you're only human'; I'd say how pathetic and totally inexcusable and completely unjustifiable what he did was.

It's all about context.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if we're all really on a different page in all this.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:35 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:But that doesn't apply to rape at all. Its not appropriate to advise women on how to avoid dangerous situations regarding rape. As has been demonstrated in this thread from the very start.

The lesson here is, don't advise women on how to avoid being raped, because you will be accused of victim blaming.


The problem is in your analogy. Rape is not like being accidentally struck by a careless motorist. Because it involves an active, predatory entity, not an accident.

So I propose that, in analogy (and I am cribbing from a discussion I and a few others just had on tumblr on this subject) that for these purposes, rape is more like being chased by hungry lions. The thing about predators is that they're opportunistic: they'll go for the most vulnerable thing in sight, absolutely. But "most vulnerable" is a relative term.

All your advice on how to 'avoid being raped'? Well, in this analogy, it's advice on "how to run faster than the antelope next to you".

In other words, "advice on how to avoid being raped" is a really shitty euphemism for "how to make sure he rapes someone else instead". Unlike teaching everyone to cycle really safely, it's not actually going to reduce the occurrence of the crime in question. Hell, it's not even necessarily going to reduce the risk to you personally: what if everyone present is just better at rape-avoidance than you? Even though you're really good at it? Well, looks like you're the best target around, then.

The only thing this sort of "advice" accomplishes is reassuring everyone involved that the just-world fallacy is still in effect: even if it's not her fault she got raped, it still happened because she wasn't careful. It will never happen to me. Because I am careful.

Fuck that noise.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:18 am UTC

Belial wrote:Because it involves an active, predatory entity, not an accident.


I do question how true this is. I don't know much about the profiles of rapists, which is why I am questioning this assertion. My thinking is, that at college frat parties, which is the context we are discussing, that an inebriated male may take advantage of a situation that he may not have expected to occur. I seriously question that all rape that goes on at drunken college parties involved males who went to that party with deliberate intent to rape. If you have numbers, throw them at me.

In other words, "advice on how to avoid being raped" is a really shitty euphemism for "how to make sure he rapes someone else instead".


I challenge the assumption that the amount of rape that goes on at a college is independent of the actions of the female population.

Hell, it's not even necessarily going to reduce the risk to you personally: what if everyone present is just better at rape-avoidance than you? Even though you're really good at it? Well, looks like you're the best target around, then.


I grew up in South Africa. Homes often get burgled, often with armed intruders and often violently. Absolute security is important. But its much more important to be more secure than your neighbours. Its good to be the faster gazelle. The result of this has been the increasing security of houses all over the country. Houses are much harder to burgle now. This is a good thing. If it was easier to burgle houses, I am sure there would be more house burglaries.

Now when it comes to giving advice on rape avoidance, and note that I actually haven't, I would give it to anyone I care about and anyone who will listen. I want them to be faster gazelles. And I am not suggesting that rape can be eliminated but it is interesting to note at this point that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed evading extinct predators.

The thing about predators is that they're opportunistic: they'll go for the most vulnerable thing in sight, absolutely. But "most vulnerable" is a relative term.


What happens when the most vulnerable prey at a party begins to carry considerable risk of getting caught, even to the most intentional and experienced rapist? Her friends that she went to the party with, Jacky, Sarah and Tim, all noticed that they hadn't seen Sandy for a while and knowing that she was extremely drunk, went looking for her.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:09 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:I do question how true this is. I don't know much about the profiles of rapists, which is why I am questioning this assertion. My thinking is, that at college frat parties, which is the context we are discussing, that an inebriated male may take advantage of a situation that he may not have expected to occur. I seriously question that all rape that goes on at drunken college parties involved males who went to that party with deliberate intent to rape. If you have numbers, throw them at me.
I don't think men go to parties saying 'I'm going to rape a woman tonight', but I do think men go to parties saying 'I'm going to get a girl drunk and bang her tonight' -- and I think a lot of men don't understand that puts them at incredibly high risk to commit rape.
BattleMoose wrote:I challenge the assumption that the amount of rape that goes on at a college is independent of the actions of the female population.
The amount of deaths caused by DUIs is not independent of the action of those who do not drink while driving; that doesn't change the fact that a drunk driver is a loaded gun who's probably going to eventually kill someone no matter how good of a driver everyone else on the road is -- and a sexually active guy with terrible consent awareness is probably going to eventually rape someone no matter how good everyone else around him is at keeping their wits and saying 'no'.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby morriswalters » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

A rapist is always at fault. They will always exist. Avoid being their prey. Seat belts don't stop accidents, they save lives. The same principle applies to moderating your behavior and exercising caution at parties.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

@Great Hippo

I actually agree with what you wrote.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:34 pm UTC

As others have said, the cycling analogy breaks down because a motorist who strikes a cyclist is negligent -- perhaps criminally negligent, but negligent nonetheless. A rapist is not merely negligent.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

The cycling analogy, and it's subsequent breakdown and analysis is the kind of thing I come to these forums for. Reasonably thoughtful on both sides. Bravo you guys. In the end, I think I have to agree that because of the negligence vs predatory intent argument, the cyclist analogy is flawed.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

I thought the discussion was primarily about the actions potential victims can take to avoid being victims and the issues of victim blaming. As has been the discussion through this entire thread as well as the article that spawned this thread. And those are the issues that I wanted to talk about.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby PolakoVoador » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:07 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
Hell, it's not even necessarily going to reduce the risk to you personally: what if everyone present is just better at rape-avoidance than you? Even though you're really good at it? Well, looks like you're the best target around, then.


I grew up in South Africa. Homes often get burgled, often with armed intruders and often violently. Absolute security is important. But its much more important to be more secure than your neighbours. Its good to be the faster gazelle. The result of this has been the increasing security of houses all over the country. Houses are much harder to burgle now. This is a good thing. If it was easier to burgle houses, I am sure there would be more house burglaries.

Now when it comes to giving advice on rape avoidance, and note that I actually haven't, I would give it to anyone I care about and anyone who will listen. I want them to be faster gazelles. And I am not suggesting that rape can be eliminated but it is interesting to note at this point that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed evading extinct predators.

The thing about predators is that they're opportunistic: they'll go for the most vulnerable thing in sight, absolutely. But "most vulnerable" is a relative term.


What happens when the most vulnerable prey at a party begins to carry considerable risk of getting caught, even to the most intentional and experienced rapist? Her friends that she went to the party with, Jacky, Sarah and Tim, all noticed that they hadn't seen Sandy for a while and knowing that she was extremely drunk, went looking for her.


I grew up in Brazil, which has some nasty violence problems as well. And I have to disagree with you. What this situations does create is burglars that get really good at identifying which houses are easier to break in, even if this means they will go to another neighbourhood and leave you alone forever.

Yes, you and your neighbours are safe now, but do you think this reduces the number of burglars? Nope, they will just move to another part of the town where such crimes are easier to commit. If the problem of "there are too many burglars in this city" is not adressed, you will just arm/defend yourself enough so that it becomes someone else's problem. And that is a shitty solution no matter how you look at it.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:I thought the discussion was primarily about the actions potential victims can take to avoid being victims and the issues of victim blaming. As has been the discussion through this entire thread as well as the article that spawned this thread. And those are the issues that I wanted to talk about.

Perhaps the thing most worth noting is that the actions potential victims can take to avoid victimization are also the actions EVERYONE can take to prevent victimization of others. Watch for suspicious behavior and don't excuse it. Don't tolerate rapey jokes. Don't associate a woman's appearance of dress or behavior with her intent. Make sure that people who want to drink heavily have responsible friends around and a solid exit strategy. Call attention to things that don't seem right; make a big deal out of things if you have to. And, most of all, stop allowing rapists to excuse their actions after the fact.

Acting as though victims have some dominant advantage in the prevention of rape compared to the general population is precisely the reason rape culture thrives.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby PeteP » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

Btw another thing about the usual rape avoidance tips? They are a) a small number of reoccurring statements and b) nothing particularly surprising. If you tell someone they probably won't go "Ingenious! I have never thought of that", it's quite likely that they have heard it sometimes before or are aware that they are more vulnerable when they are ,for instance, black out drunk. Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.

The thing about being an individual is, that as an individual, I can and do take actions to prevent myself being a victim in all situations throughout my life. And its based on things that I can personally do as an individual. Working within a context, that I as an individual cannot change.

My sister is also an individual. She also cannot change the societal focus of attention away from wherever it is, to increase the safety of women on campus. All she can do, is take individual actions, based on herself being an individual to keep herself safe. And if she has good friends and makes good decisions about how and when to get blind drunk, she can do so safely. Or we could tell her that SOCIETY should protect her, ignoring the fact that it won't and then get outraged if she gets raped.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby PeteP » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.

Where have I addressed anyone in this thread? This assumptions! Outragous!

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.

Where have I addressed anyone in this thread? This assumptions! Outragous!


Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


We is a pronoun. I understood from the context that it applied to those, including me, who thought that people could actually take actions to avoid being raped.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:56 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.


That's exactly what the original article in the OP was suggesting. Or, more to the point, the OP article was suggesting that when reporting rapes, the media should be sure to report all of the things that the victim did "wrong".

I think it's important to remember the cultural context here. It's pretty much only been in the last few decades (if that) where blaming women for being raped hasn't been the go-to response across the board. And for the most part, in most places, it still is. There is a deeply embedded idea that if a woman dresses a certain way, or acts a certain way, or goes certain places without a chaperone, then she is "asking for it". When people start talking about "safety", they are, whether they intend to or not, implicitly invoking those tropes because that is how it is understood by a large part of their wider audience. The whole purpose of this argument has been, historically speaking, to shift blame away from rapists and onto victims. Saying that, well, this time, we're not blaming the victims, we're just using the exact same language in exactly the same context, in the name of "safety" is pretty disingenuous.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby PeteP » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:04 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.

Where have I addressed anyone in this thread? This assumptions! Outragous!


Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


We is a pronoun. I understood from the context that it applied to those, including me, who thought that people could actually take actions to avoid being raped.

If it helps the we was not a thread level we but a society level we. Also, I can't mean you since I don't actually read most of your posts.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby sam_i_am » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
PeteP wrote:Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion.


WE should do whatever we can to reduce the amount of rapes. And no one here, as suggested, at all, that we should focus more on the actions on potential victims. You are assuming far too much about the opinions of people in this thread.


That's exactly what the original article in the OP was suggesting. Or, more to the point, the OP article was suggesting that when reporting rapes, the media should be sure to report all of the things that the victim did "wrong".

I think it's important to remember the cultural context here. It's pretty much only been in the last few decades (if that) where blaming women for being raped hasn't been the go-to response across the board. And for the most part, in most places, it still is. There is a deeply embedded idea that if a woman dresses a certain way, or acts a certain way, or goes certain places without a chaperone, then she is "asking for it". When people start talking about "safety", they are, whether they intend to or not, implicitly invoking those tropes because that is how it is understood by a large part of their wider audience. The whole purpose of this argument has been, historically speaking, to shift blame away from rapists and onto victims. Saying that, well, this time, we're not blaming the victims, we're just using the exact same language in exactly the same context, in the name of "safety" is pretty disingenuous.



Actually this thread has been an eye opening experience for me in a way.

In my short life, I've often heard about people blaming the victim, and holding the rapist blameless, but I've never actually heard anyone actually say that it was the victim's fault, at least so I thought.

Now I understand that "victim blaming" refers to articles like this, that advise women(and implicitly men too) not to get blackout drunk.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby omgryebread » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

sam_i_am wrote:Actually this thread has been an eye opening experience for me in a way.

In my short life, I've often heard about people blaming the victim, and holding the rapist blameless, but I've never actually heard anyone actually say that it was the victim's fault, at least so I thought.

Now I understand that "victim blaming" refers to articles like this, that advise women(and implicitly men too) not to get blackout drunk.
Holy crap did you read the article?

Of course the perpetrators are the ones responsible for the crimes, but to solve the problem they can’t be the only ones taking blame.
From the opening paragraph. She says, right there, that she's victim blaming.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:19 pm UTC

Which makes pretending that we should focus more on telling potential victims how to be save a mere diversion

This. It's one thing if these articles were actually giving out useful advice. They don't. This one hardly pretends to. All it brings to the table is one statistic about alcohol, nicely dissected by Sceptic above.

The 'concerned advice' is just rethoric packaging of the message, that girls these days drink too much and that this naturally results in bad things for them.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Derek » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Belial wrote:So I propose that, in analogy (and I am cribbing from a discussion I and a few others just had on tumblr on this subject) that for these purposes, rape is more like being chased by hungry lions. The thing about predators is that they're opportunistic: they'll go for the most vulnerable thing in sight, absolutely. But "most vulnerable" is a relative term.

All your advice on how to 'avoid being raped'? Well, in this analogy, it's advice on "how to run faster than the antelope next to you".

Actually, if all the antelopes were healthy and middle-aged, the lions would probably starve. Bringing down a healthy antelope is very difficult, the lions depend on the vulnerable population (young, old, and sick) to get their food.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
Belial wrote:So I propose that, in analogy (and I am cribbing from a discussion I and a few others just had on tumblr on this subject) that for these purposes, rape is more like being chased by hungry lions. The thing about predators is that they're opportunistic: they'll go for the most vulnerable thing in sight, absolutely. But "most vulnerable" is a relative term.

All your advice on how to 'avoid being raped'? Well, in this analogy, it's advice on "how to run faster than the antelope next to you".

Actually, if all the antelopes were healthy and middle-aged, the lions would probably starve. Bringing down a healthy antelope is very difficult, the lions depend on the vulnerable population (young, old, and sick) to get their food.

If the goal is to get the lions to starve, the best solution is to give all the antelopes thermal-imaging goggles so they can spot the lions ahead of time.

You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:47 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.
Alternatively, we could adapt a society/culture/environment that makes it so impossible for lions to hunt, feed, or exist, that they go extinct, or are at least driven that way.

Lions are actually kind of a poor analogy because who doesn't fucking love lions?
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby PolakoVoador » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.
Alternatively, we could adapt a society/culture/environment that makes it so impossible for lions to hunt, feed, or exist, that they go extinct, or are at least driven that way.

Lions are actually kind of a poor analogy because who doesn't fucking love lions?


The antelopes?

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.
Alternatively, we could adapt a society/culture/environment that makes it so impossible for lions to hunt, feed, or exist, that they go extinct, or are at least driven that way.



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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:55 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Lions are actually kind of a poor analogy because who doesn't fucking love lions?

Detroit fans.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Carlington » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

Analogies to lions preying on antelopes or sharks going after blood or dogs going for steaks are incredibly demeaning to men, by the way (I mean, that's probably the smallest of the problems with them, but y'know...). You can teach a dog self-control. Are you trying to tell me that men are incapable of exercising as much self-control as a pet dog? I mean, you know that there's a problem with your analogy when you have to lower yourself to the level of a literal wild animal for it to hold, is what I'm saying here. (Also, men aren't the only ones who commit rape, but they are overwhelmingly in the majority so I am saving time by using a shorthand here.)

In line with the recent line of discussion here, I have to say that I'm a little surprised. I didn't really think that people would still actively try to dispute that the optimal solution to "people exhibiting rape-y behaviour" is "teach the people that rape-y behaviour is bad, and to stop doing it". The arguments I've seen here basically amount to "Well, $potential_rape_victim_example can hardly be expected to effect a change on a societal level, every time they want to go to a party! So we should obviously stop trying that, and instead just tell people how to watch out for rape-y behaviour and not get raped". Really, this is a terrible attitude to take - one person can't fix the whole problem, let's just give up. Besides which, we should only really be teaching everybody to spot rape-y behaviour if we're then teaching them to then call the person on it, and explain why it's bad and why they need to stop that thing right now.

A lot of people have been espousing the benefits of teaching people safety tips and prevention strategies. I can see the appeal in this line of reasoning - "The world's a nasty place, we should teach them how to look after themselves". What we need to bear in mind, though, is that when you teach someone "This is how you don't get raped", you're really teaching them "This is how you make sure someone else gets raped first". Surely everyone here can see that it would be far preferable to teach "This is how and why you don't fucking rape Jesus-fucking-Christ have we not reached this point yet? Because wow."
Last edited by Carlington on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby leady » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:00 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.


If you can spot sociopaths in the wild then you are a better man than I. It would be useful to have a "dexter dark passenger" warning in reallife, but they don't exist

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

leady wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:You know, like teaching people how to spot rapey behavior rather than training them to spot "victimy" behavior.


If you can spot sociopaths in the wild then you are a better man than I. It would be useful to have a "dexter dark passenger" warning in reallife, but they don't exist

You may not be able to immediately identify a dark passenger, but anyone can learn to identify the body language and actions of a man who has selected his target and is progressively working to isolate her and reduce her ability to effectively say "no".

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby leady » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:16 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:You may not be able to immediately identify a dark passenger, but anyone can learn to identify the body language and actions of a man who has selected his target and is progressively working to isolate her and reduce her ability to effectively say "no".


I think you'll drown in a sea of noise using those characteristics

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby dimochka » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:24 pm UTC

I could understand that quite a few people would vehemently argue about Kirby's approach to the article. But here's the thing - there are actions and there are consequences. If the consequences are undesirable, maybe we need to change the actions. Optimally, we would change the actions of the person at fault. But realistically, if we change the actions of the person not at fault, we may reach a more positive result than the one achieved by doing nothing.

In no way am I saying that the blame of the action of the rape should be put on anyone but the rapist. However, making women more aware of the fact that drinking makes them a more likely victim may change their likelyhood of being a rape victim. And at the end of the day, I'm more concerned with preventing the number of rapes than I am with how it's getting done (as long as I believe that the "how" is less harmul than the rape itself). If we use the wrong words and make women feel that it's in some way their fault that they were raped (as a result of alcohol abuse), that would be awful. BUT if this results in a reduction in the number of instances of rape, wouldn't it be preferable than the status quo? AND it would be likely to reduce excessive alcohol consumption for some of these women.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:36 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:Analogies to lions preying on antelopes or sharks going after blood or dogs going for steaks are incredibly demeaning to men, by the way (I mean, that's probably the smallest of the problems with them, but y'know...). You can teach a dog self-control. Are you trying to tell me that men are incapable of exercising as much self-control as a pet dog? I mean, you know that there's a problem with your analogy when you have to lower yourself to the level of a literal wild animal for it to hold, is what I'm saying here. (Also, men aren't the only ones who commit rape, but they are overwhelmingly in the majority so I am saving time by using a shorthand here.)
Yes, this is just another reason why victim blaming is REALLY REALLY BAD! It builds a culture where men are thought of as less capable of self-restraint than a dog! Where a rapist is someone who just HAD to because hell, she was wearing skirt AND drunk!

Couching the blame on the victim because she did things that made her an easier target is counter productive, in the same way that forgetting to leave your door unlocked doesn't mean you're to blame for someone entering your home and savagely murdering your family.
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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:37 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:Realistically, if we change the actions of the person not at fault, we may reach a more positive result than the one achieved by doing nothing.

No one is saying that we do nothing.

dimochka wrote:making women more aware of the fact that drinking makes them a more likely victim may change their likelyhood of being a rape victim.

Thus increasing the likelihood that a different woman will be raped.

dimochka wrote:If we use the wrong words and make women feel that it's in some way their fault that they were raped (as a result of alcohol abuse), that would be awful. BUT if this results in a reduction in the number of instances of rape, wouldn't it be preferable than the status quo?

No.

Because it won't result in a reduction in the number of instances of rape; it will result in a reinforcement of the social structure of rape culture which causes rape to be accepted and protected.

Also because taken to its extreme, this means that simply forcing all women to stay in their homes all the time is preferable to allowing them to leave. After all, women who leave the kitchen are statistically much more likely to get raped, right? :evil:

dimochka wrote:AND it would be likely to reduce excessive alcohol consumption for some of these women.

The tremendous baggage associated with the term "some of these women" used in reference to potential rape victims completely drowns out anything useful this sentence may or may not have contained.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:45 pm UTC

New rule: You do not get to tell victims what they should have done unless you yourself have had personal experience in such situations.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

leady wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:You may not be able to immediately identify a dark passenger, but anyone can learn to identify the body language and actions of a man who has selected his target and is progressively working to isolate her and reduce her ability to effectively say "no".


I think you'll drown in a sea of noise using those characteristics


Not necessarily.

TLDR: there are characteristic behaviours of rapists which can be noticed, and there are things you can do to prevent them from raping anybody.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:53 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
leady wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:You may not be able to immediately identify a dark passenger, but anyone can learn to identify the body language and actions of a man who has selected his target and is progressively working to isolate her and reduce her ability to effectively say "no".


I think you'll drown in a sea of noise using those characteristics


Not necessarily.

TLDR: there are characteristic behaviours of rapists which can be noticed, and there are things you can do to prevent them from raping anybody.

Precisely what I had in mind.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby morriswalters » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:12 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
dimochka wrote:making women more aware of the fact that drinking makes them a more likely victim may change their likelyhood of being a rape victim.

Thus increasing the likelihood that a different woman will be raped.
This will happen. It's unavoidable, thus making this a false dichotomy. Rape happens. The incidence can be reduced but it can't be eliminated. Other women will be raped no matter what any one woman may do. Any defense has to come from two places, the person at risk and with those who may be around her. It isn't something that happens at drunken parties at college, not exclusively. So you can't count on other people being there to save you.

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Re: Southern Methodist University student solves rape

Postby Derek » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Thus increasing the likelihood that a different woman will be raped.

Yeah, I really don't buy this. I mean, maybe if one woman in a party is more careful, then maybe the number of women who get raped at that party doesn't change. But if every women at a party is more careful, I'm sure you would see a significant drop in rapes at parties. It's not a zero-sum game.

CorruptUser wrote:New rule: You do not get to tell victims what they should have done unless you yourself have had personal experience in such situations.

But wouldn't the people using the most effective defensive strategies have never had personal experience in those situations, by definition?

Not to mention that I don't think any discussion has ever been advanced by saying "Hey, you have no right to speak!".


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