The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

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Zohar
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zohar » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:33 pm UTC

The point is you're stretching the definitions so much they're not useful anymore.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:The point is you're stretching the definitions so much they're not useful anymore.
Perhaps not in this particular case, but this particular case inspires the stretching of the definitions that will be useful in other cases. Like just when is it that we have a machine "be" intelligent, or more to the point, how do we even answer the question? We'll need that when we live in the future.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:39 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote: It's the age-old case of bureaucrats and techies deciding what's best for the people, while avoiding the messy step of asking them.

They actually gathered a lot of data on what people wanted and used that when setting the weights of different factors. The problem is that after the AI produced a schedule the bureaucrats did not give satisfactory justification to the people.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zohar » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Zohar wrote:The point is you're stretching the definitions so much they're not useful anymore.
Perhaps not in this particular case, but this particular case inspires the stretching of the definitions that will be useful in other cases.

Perhaps it would be useful to limit the discussions to actual machines if that's what you're interested in talking about.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Zamfir wrote: It's the age-old case of bureaucrats and techies deciding what's best for the people, while avoiding the messy step of asking them.

They actually gathered a lot of data on what people wanted and used that when setting the weights of different factors. The problem is that after the AI produced a schedule the bureaucrats did not give satisfactory justification to the people.


As i read it, they asked people about their preferred times, then unsurprisingly found that most people preferred the same times (start between 8.00 and 8.30,e tc). And the district is not willing to spend enough money to make that happen, by a long shot. People used to start before 7.30, and after the change other people had to start before 7.30

That's the crucial point: this was a cost-cutting exercise, on a system that was already underfunded. Better optimization might help reduce the pain somewhat, but optimization is not magic. A lot of the changes are about shifting the pain to these people or to those people. That's a political process, and surveys are not going to answer that. The surveys just tell you that people won't like it if they lose out.

I think this is telling:
Juli 2017, from aboston newspaper:
A Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor and doctoral students have come up with new routes to bus the city's more than 30,000 students by finding better connections between schools. Boston Public Schools Chief of Operations John Hanlon said the new system is projected to remove 77 of the fleet's current 650 buses and decrease daily trips from 3,000 to 2,700 -- saving the district between $3 million and $5 million a year in transportation costs.

December 2017, a memo linked to from the wired article:
As you know, the district’s primary goal in changing bell times is to optimize conditions for
learning and academic achievement by:
1) Maximizing the number of secondary students starting after 8 a.m.;
2) Minimizing the number of elementary students dismissing after 4 p.m.;
3) Wherever possible, assigning schools with higher concentrations of medically fragile
students and/or students with autism or emotional impairments to bell times reflective of
the needs of their student bodies; and
4) Where possible, do all of the above while maximizing reinvestment in schools.

Note item 4, coyly put in last place, with a cautious "where possible", and an euphemistic "reinvestment in schools".
What seems to have happened that they developed a cost-cutting program, and then the MIT PR machine (which is very good) plastered the result all over the news to drum up business from other school districts wanting to save money. But that's bad PR for the school district. They now have to sell the message "your schedule will be fucked up next year so we can fire more bus drivers"

So, they organized a second optimization run, with some ad-hoc niceties throw in. The message is now "your schedule will be changed to make high-schoolers learn better, prevent little children from going home n the dark, help autistic kids, and make the system more fair for poor black people. Oh, and also save a little money." That's part of the game!

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Coyne » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:16 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:A lot of the changes are about shifting the pain to these people or to those people. That's a political process, and surveys are not going to answer that. The surveys just tell you that people won't like it if they lose out.

But a political process is not one ended, it needs to involve everyone.

I can optimize the daylights out of that system, give them the cheapest bus system ever (no AI required). Sell all the buses, fire all the bus drivers, tell the parents, "It's your problem to get the kids to the school and back...and don't drive them because we don't want a line of cars outside the front door." That's called fiat and it works really efficiently. But it annoys a lot of people.

If I'm going to have to endure pain, I expect representation.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:05 pm UTC


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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:44 pm UTC


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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zohar » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:57 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fiat_buses

:P

What am I looking at?
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Thesh » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

A list of buses that were built by the government to use as a form of currency.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ijuin » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:58 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fiat_buses

:P

What am I looking at?

Buses created by Fiat.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:02 pm UTC

Context
Coyne wrote:That's called fiat and it works really efficiently. But it annoys a lot of people.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Coyne » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:24 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:Context
Coyne wrote:That's called fiat and it works really efficiently. But it annoys a lot of people.

https://tinyurl.com/y8bq2525
In all fairness...

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:27 am UTC

I've never seen one a Fiat Money myself, perhaps it's a rebadge of these?


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