The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:56 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The report also addresses the risk that overly competitive robots could result in large-scale unemployment, and calls for the serious examination of a general basic income as one possible solution.
But how will we get the robots to pay it, once they are granted personhood, and then citizenship, and then the vote?

And don't tell me that won't happen, because if the first one happens, the rest are sure to follow.

It may end up being us that will be paying the citizens wage to the robots.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

From the article:
A new reporting structure for companies requiring them to report the contribution of robotics and AI to the economic results of a company for the purpose of taxation and social security contributions


This sounds a bit like an extra tax grab. Unless they plan on giving the robots/AI social security as well for some reason...

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:49 pm UTC

ucim wrote:But how will we get the robots to pay it, once they are granted personhood, and then citizenship, and then the vote?

And don't tell me that won't happen, because if the first one happens, the rest are sure to follow.

By that logic, given that companies have already been granted personhood, they are going to be granted citizenship and the vote first. They will then most likely cockblock any further progress on robot rights...

In short, there are more plausible things to worry about than your scenario :D

Chen wrote:This sounds a bit like an extra tax grab. Unless they plan on giving the robots/AI social security as well for some reason...

I could see sentient AI being granted social security to support itself, however the whole point of robot labour is that it's much cheaper than human labour - so under any 'from each according to their ability and to each according to their need' system it doesn't make much sense to give them the same payouts as a human would get.

Most likely they will be far more productive than humans anyway so will pay more in taxes than they receive in support.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby speising » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:57 pm UTC

What's an AI anyway? I don't believe there's a stringent definition to delineate an AI from conventional software.
Result:
Companies stop hyping every slightly complex automated service as AI, call their robots "machines", and avoid those regulations.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:18 pm UTC

Unless it is sentient it doesn't matter how we treat it. It won't care any more than your microwave does.

It's likely companies will create sentient AI and pretend it's not for tax reasons, but that will eventually be treated as an ethical scandal in the same way slavery was.

(All this is decades off but it's cool that debate on these matters is actually starting to reach the higher echelons of legislature.)

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

elasto wrote:By that logic, given that companies have already been granted personhood, they are going to be granted citizenship and the vote first. They will then most likely cockblock any further progress on robot rights...
Oh, I dunno. Robots are more humanizable than corporations. And as for corporations, Hobby Lobby has already been granted religious rights. I don't think it's so farfetched that there will soon be a Data law granting AI robots citizenship if AI actually moves in the Data direction.

However, I don't think that's the direction that AI will move. Rather, AI will engulf us by making us part of itself, in the sense that we are all part of the internet, the googleverse, the Facebook algorithms, the credit card computations, and as all of these become more and more inescapable, we will []become[/i] part of the AI we create, and will understand what it's "doing" as well as our liver cells understand the newspaper we read.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:29 am UTC

ucim wrote:Oh, I dunno. Robots are more humanizable than corporations. And as for corporations, Hobby Lobby has already been granted religious rights. I don't think it's so farfetched that there will soon be a Data law granting AI robots citizenship if AI actually moves in the Data direction.

The counterargument is that there is a majority movement in both our countries towards closing our doors.

In the UK we can already cut non-EU immigration to near zero if we choose (ie. scary brown people), but that wasn't enough; People have voted to cut EU immigration too (ie. scary white caucasians).

If there is such a fear of immigrants who are actually human, I think there'll be a supramajority against granting actual non-humans rights...

However, I don't think that's the direction that AI will move. Rather, AI will engulf us by making us part of itself, in the sense that we are all part of the internet, the googleverse, the Facebook algorithms, the credit card computations, and as all of these become more and more inescapable, we will become part of the AI we create, and will understand what it's "doing" as well as our liver cells understand the newspaper we read.

Agreed. We've already had this discussion. I think humanity's future is to be either the pet or the slave of the AI we will create - I hope for the former and think it would represent a 'heaven on earth', and you see little material distinction between the former and the latter...

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:51 pm UTC

(All this is decades off but it's cool that debate on these matters is actually starting to reach the higher echelons of legislature.)

The E-P is hardly the higher echelons of legislature...it's not quite the pointless exercise that it used to be, but it's still miles away from serious power. In particular, it's not a real legislature, as it can't propose laws.

That's why it's free to make these airhead documents. For all the formality, the document is not much different from those op-ed pieces with a list of signatures from Respectable People. Expect with less philosophy professors on the list.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:01 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The E-P is hardly the higher echelons of legislature...it's not quite the pointless exercise that it used to be, but it's still miles away from serious power. In particular, it's not a real legislature, as it can't propose laws.

That's why it's free to make these airhead documents. For all the formality, the document is not much different from those op-ed pieces with a list of signatures from Respectable People. Expect with less philosophy professors on the list.

That doesn't square with the final paragraph of the news story:

The Guardian wrote:The full house of the European Parliament will vote on the draft proposals in February, which will need to be approved by absolute majority.

Is the Guardian misreporting this?

I realise there is another stage to this which is the EU Council, and they'd probably block it even if Parliament didn't, but it seems like a noteworthy first step either way.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:54 pm UTC

After approval, a report becomes a formal invitation to the Commission to make legislation on the topic in question, which would then go back to the parliament and council for approval. But the Commission can refuse that invitation, though it is obligated to explain why they refuse it.

I think the commission has stated that they will in principle honor these requests, but it's a grey area. The parliament can't push its luck - if they demand controversial legislation, the commission might refuse, and such a precedent would end the little bit of inititative that the parliament has gathered.

In any case, you're not looking at draft legislation - the actual legislation proposal as made by the commission would look very different. It's basically a note that says "commission, it would be cool if you did something with robots next year."

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:44 pm UTC

Harvard researchers claim to have produced the first ever sample of metallic hydrogen on Earth.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38768683

I did not realize before reading this article that many scientists think metallic hydrogen might be metastable. Meaning that, like diamonds, although it requires intense pressure to form, it might stay intact if you bring it back to normal atmospheric pressure. So holy crap that's a bigger deal than I thought.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:05 pm UTC

What did this group do differently than previous groups?
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:13 pm UTC

Opus_723 wrote:Harvard researchers claim to have produced the first ever sample of metallic hydrogen on Earth.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38768683

I did not realize before reading this article that many scientists think metallic hydrogen might be metastable. Meaning that, like diamonds, although it requires intense pressure to form, it might stay intact if you bring it back to normal atmospheric pressure. So holy crap that's a bigger deal than I thought.


Erm... does the 495 GPa mean what I think it means? That's roughly 5 million atmospheres...

jewish_scientist wrote:What did this group do differently than previous groups?


I'd assume the accomplishment is successfully getting a device to pressurize to hold 5-million atmospheres without exploding, along with keeping the temperature stable. Another issue when looking for these "states of matter" is doing the math to know what to build. Are you going for 800 degrees Kelvin and 5-million atmospheres? Or are you going for 5000 degrees Kelvin and 500,000 atmospheres? Its a big "search area".

-------

With that said, "Its Shiny" (like a wealthy woman's neck) seems like a relatively weak argument. But if they got 495 GPa and whatever temperature readings they were getting... then in theory, someone else could repeat the experiment on a larger-scale and try to take a better kind of measurement. Like conductivity or something. (How to ensure that the Hydrogen "crystalizes" onto the conductivity device is a big question... also the measurement device needs to be on the inside of that insane pressure chamber and survive at those pressures)
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Liri » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:22 pm UTC

The article says they kept it at minus 270C, so around 3 Kelvin.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:33 pm UTC

Liri wrote:The article says they kept it at minus 270C, so around 3 Kelvin.


Huh. I went totally in the wrong direction as far as temperature then.

So 3 Kelvin and 5-million atmospheres. That's... going to be hard to work with. I still like my (hypothetical armchair scientist) idea of just running a wire into the chamber and measuring the resistance by somehow convincing the hydrogen to solidify across the wires. :-)

I have no idea how feasible it is of course, but only something like that would convince me that what they have is actually metallic.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Mutex » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

Well if they're right that it's meta-stable, they don't need to keep it at that temperature and pressure to do tests on the sample.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:39 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Well if they're right that it's meta-stable, they don't need to keep it at that temperature and pressure to do tests on the sample.


A literally solid block of hydrogen crystallized into metallic form? Erm...

It'd take a special trick of some kind to bring it back into room-temperature conditions. Again, they (may have) discovered it at 5-million atmospheres at 3-degrees above absolute zero. Surviving the trek to 1-atmosphere and 295-Kelvin (aka: room temperature) is probably going to take a pretty nifty trick.

Even then, Hydrogen does react with both Nitrogen and Oxygen. I guess its only explosive if a spark were nearby though, so maybe it isn't as bad as I initially thought.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:39 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Mutex wrote:Well if they're right that it's meta-stable, they don't need to keep it at that temperature and pressure to do tests on the sample.


A literally solid block of hydrogen crystallized into metallic form? Erm...

It'd take a special trick of some kind to bring it back into room-temperature conditions. Again, they (may have) discovered it at 5-million atmospheres at 3-degrees above absolute zero. Surviving the trek to 1-atmosphere and 295-Kelvin (aka: room temperature) is probably going to take a pretty nifty trick.

Even then, Hydrogen does react with both Nitrogen and Oxygen. I guess its only explosive if a spark were nearby though, so maybe it isn't as bad as I initially thought.

You need to consider another possibility. This is a fraud. Or at least not repeatable. More likely, they just crushed some hydrogen and said it turned metallic.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby mfb » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:06 pm UTC

The publication seems to be based on the reflectivity as main indicator, but there are other options that could explain it.

Here is an article at nature.com questioning the claims.

Looks like whatever they had didn't survive the depressurization, nothing about that is mentioned in the publication.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:55 am UTC

The Future is Now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az6oYcd-SfU

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I remember Scotty talking about it in 1984.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:13 am UTC

sardia wrote:You need to consider another possibility. This is a fraud. Or at least not repeatable. More likely, they just crushed some hydrogen and said it turned metallic.


I don't think it is a "fraud" to say they conducted the experiment and saw something shiny inside of their special container thingy.

They're admitting that they have relatively weak evidence. Some suggestions I've seen elsewhere is that maybe they got the sample of hydrogen contaminated with something that turns shiny in those conditions. In any case, further experimentation is required.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:34 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
sardia wrote:You need to consider another possibility. This is a fraud. Or at least not repeatable. More likely, they just crushed some hydrogen and said it turned metallic.


I don't think it is a "fraud" to say they conducted the experiment and saw something shiny inside of their special container thingy.

They're admitting that they have relatively weak evidence. Some suggestions I've seen elsewhere is that maybe they got the sample of hydrogen contaminated with something that turns shiny in those conditions. In any case, further experimentation is required.

I'm more generous with typical scientists who demands feedback, not blast out press releases bragging about something unconfirmed. The thing stinks of cold fusion all over again.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby HES » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:06 am UTC

The people writing the press releases tend not to be the people doing the actual science.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby SDK » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:It'd take a special trick of some kind to bring it back into room-temperature conditions. Again, they (may have) discovered it at 5-million atmospheres at 3-degrees above absolute zero. Surviving the trek to 1-atmosphere and 295-Kelvin (aka: room temperature) is probably going to take a pretty nifty trick.

It might not necessarily be that tricky, actually. Lots of materials we use everyday are metastable. Basically every knife blade is an easy example. Since diffusion in solids is so slow at room temperature and below, they don't have any way of transforming into whatever stable arrangement they'd rather be in. In materials science, metastable means the same thing as stable for normal applications - it's just not in equilibrium conditions.

I have no idea how that works with metallic hydrogen though. I was surprised to read that scientists think it might be metastable up to room temperature in the first place. Hydrogen is so small that it normally has no trouble getting around at room temperature, so it must be bound in place by its own crystal structure, prevented from reforming the diatomic bonds to form H2.

Some quick reading on metallic hydrogen specifically suggests that a mixed strategy using alloying (with lithium?) and a "shock-pressure-quench" could work to drive it back to room temperature without changing phase. I guess we'll see in the years to come. I'll be following this one with interest.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:07 am UTC

It took decades of hybrid breeding of tomatoes that ended up bland as can be. Now with the miracle of genetic engineering, we can expect all the flavor back in years. http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/scien ... genes.html
Unfortunately, we may be too late. Taste tests show that consumers prefer the crappier blander tomatoes now.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby pogrmman » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:09 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It took decades of hybrid breeding of tomatoes that ended up bland as can be. Now with the miracle of genetic engineering, we can expect all the flavor back in years. http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/scien ... genes.html
Unfortunately, we may be too late. Taste tests show that consumers prefer the crappier blander tomatoes now.


I don't know how anybody could prefer the watery, bland crap tomatoes you find so often today to nice, delicious ones. I mean, the modern ones taste OK when you let them ripen fully, but seriously! Why would someone prefer them?!

Maybe because it's what they are used to...

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Whizbang » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:03 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:I don't know how anybody could [like] tomatoes{full stop}


ftfy

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:00 pm UTC

Google’s neural networks have achieved the dream of CSI viewers everywhere: the company has revealed a new AI system capable of “enhancing” an eight-pixel square image, increasing the resolution 16-fold and effectively restoring lost data.

The neural network could be used to increase the resolution of blurred or pixelated faces, in a way previously thought impossible.

Google’s researchers describe the neural network as “hallucinating” the extra information. The system was trained by being shown innumerable images of faces, so that it learns typical facial features. A second portion of the system, meanwhile, focuses on comparing 8x8 pixel images with all the possible 32x32 pixel images they could be shrunken versions of.

The two networks working in harmony effectively redraw their best guess of what the original facial image would be. The system allows for a huge improvement over old-fashioned methods of up-sampling: where an older system might simply look at a block of red in the middle of a face, make it 16 times bigger and blur the edges, Google’s system is capable of recognising it is likely to be a pair of lips, and draw the image accordingly.


It also has applications to massively improve compression rates:

In January, Google announced it would use a machine learning-based approach to compress images on Google+ four-fold, saving users bandwidth by limiting the amount of information that needs to be sent. The system then makes the same sort of educated guesses about what information lies “between” the pixels to increase the resolution of the final picture.


link

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Felstaff » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:05 pm UTC

Wonder if they'll be able to enhance the third edition of The Daily Felstaff so I can get that naked picture of me back.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:09 pm UTC

Haven't you just tried looking in the Mirror, instead? ;)

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:14 pm UTC

Okay, somebody needs to feed this with all the 8x8 images that aren't faces and see what results.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Whizbang » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:Okay, somebody needs to feed this with all the 8x8 images that aren't faces and see what results.


Scroll farther down in the article.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Thesh » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:58 pm UTC

Those are some seriously crooked homes.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:Scroll farther down in the article.

Of course. But what happens if you feed it, say, the 8x8 fireball sprite from Super Mario Bros.? The letter A from the Commodore 64 character set? 64 pixels of random colors? They say the algorithm "hallucinates" the missing data; I want to see what happens when it experiences pareidolia.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby DaBigCheez » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Whizbang wrote:Scroll farther down in the article.

Of course. But what happens if you feed it, say, the 8x8 fireball sprite from Super Mario Bros.? The letter A from the Commodore 64 character set? 64 pixels of random colors? They say the algorithm "hallucinates" the missing data; I want to see what happens when it experiences pareidolia.

I think then you get DeepDream.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:10 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Whizbang wrote:Scroll farther down in the article.

Of course. But what happens if you feed it, say, the 8x8 fireball sprite from Super Mario Bros.? The letter A from the Commodore 64 character set? 64 pixels of random colors? They say the algorithm "hallucinates" the missing data; I want to see what happens when it experiences pareidolia.

It's just a hippie term for extrapolate. Just like how you fill in a series of dots equidistant from a point is a circle.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:16 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's just a hippie term for extrapolate.
I think there's more to it than that; if the software is doing what the article implies it's doing, it first tries to identify what it is that the data is a picture of, and then draws something that fits its internal picture that would have generated the originally given data if degraded. It's more akin to (and subject to the same pitfalls as) the way people saw, and mapped, the canals of Mars.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby speising » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:09 pm UTC

Not really new news, i guess, but a nice video like from a 60's James Bond movie:
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:31 pm UTC

Scientists in Boston have found a way to get every last drop of ketchup out of the bottle. They have developed a coating that makes bottle interiors super slippery. The coating can also be used to make it easier to squeeze out the contents of other containers, such as those holding toothpaste, cosmetics and even glue.

The researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) believe that their innovation could dramatically reduce waste:

"With the manufacture of these sticky products there is about 200 million gallons of material each year that gets stuck to tanks and then gets washed off and thrown away. And in packages there are about 40 billion packs with material stuck in packages so the technology has the potential to significantly reduce waste."

According to Prof Kripa Varanasi, who developed the slippery surface, the technology is completely safe:

"The cool thing about it is that because the coating is a composite of solid and liquid, it can be tailored to the product. So for food, we make the coating out of food-based materials and so you can actually eat it."


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sardia
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:22 pm UTC

Are you posting about an old material or is this an updated version that is food safe?


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