Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

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sardia
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Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:55 am UTC

New title to reflect the evolving situation, was "Ukraine Government and Economy Falls"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world ... world&_r=0
The protesters have forced the president to flee but the president vows to regroup near the Crimea/russian border. The country is now in the hands of the protesters, but the president and Russia await in the wings. The economy is in freefall, and the institutions suffer from endemic corruption. It's unclear how much the US or the EU are willing to help.

Anyone heard any aid packages for Ukraine yet besides the Russian offer? Because the only open offer is the IMF, and those guys would go full Greeko treatment on the Ukrainians.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby yurell » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:06 am UTC

Is he still the president? I thought parliament had stripped him of that position.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:12 am UTC

Is this what the Pope spoke about?
Well? How did it go?

Economy in free fall?
That sounds bad.

I don't know anything about the Ukraine.
They used to be Russia. Now; What are they?

They are Big!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Geography
The largest European country? Really?

jeeze.

The Pope is praying for Peace.
That seems reasonable.

How they are going to get to Peace from where they are is beyond me.
I bet they do it in some strange European way.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby sardia » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:40 pm UTC

yurell wrote:Is he still the president? I thought parliament had stripped him of that position.

Does it matter? His potential to start a civil war/insurrection remains regardless of his title.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby cphite » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
yurell wrote:Is he still the president? I thought parliament had stripped him of that position.

Does it matter? His potential to start a civil war/insurrection remains regardless of his title.


He was (is) a Russian puppet. The fact that he had his opponent jailed for the "crime" of running against him in his election should have been a clue as to what he represented.

It seems the people finally had enough of being led indirectly by Russia; all the best to them.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:37 pm UTC

Ukraine is great but its such a corrupt basket case of a society. As my Canadian mates and I say its a country where nothing makes sense :)

I mean practically the first act of the new acting president was to issue an arrest warrant for his predecessor - that screams dysfunctional

Oh and this was a sponsored scenario - although one ironically instigated by Putin (A strangely bad piece of geopolitics by one I'd thought a master) . Spontaneous revolution indeed :)

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:36 am UTC

leady wrote:Ukraine is great but its such a corrupt basket case of a society. As my Canadian mates and I say its a country where nothing makes sense :)

I mean practically the first act of the new acting president was to issue an arrest warrant for his predecessor - that screams dysfunctional

Oh and this was a sponsored scenario - although one ironically instigated by Putin (A strangely bad piece of geopolitics by one I'd thought a master) . Spontaneous revolution indeed :)


Wasn't the predecessor Yulia Tymoshenko, the one who wore her hair as a crown? The one that was twice as corrupt as she was sexy?

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Thesh » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:51 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wasn't the predecessor Yulia Tymoshenko, the one who wore her hair as a crown? The one that was twice as corrupt as she was sexy?


Sure, she's probably corrupt, but is she more corrupt than the average politician there? Politicians in the Ukraine are about as corrupt as they come. There was no reason for her to be targeted in particular, other than out of spite.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Ormurinn » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:22 am UTC

Y'all are putting too much politics into an essentially ethnic conflict.

Western Ukraine is full of Ukrainians - who hate Russia for repeated genocide attempts under the USSR.

Eastern Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians the USSR shipped in to replace the Ukrainians they'd exterminated.

Understandably the two groups have rather different ideas towards mother Russia, and don't like each other much.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:22 am UTC

yeah theres quite a bit of ethnic nationalism, but the reality is that the choice of completely corrupt rulership is pretty irrelevent in practice

Also there is a pretty big economic disparity between the eastern and southern areas and the western Urkainian areas (east has heavy industry, south has tourism) which drives a whole heap of strangeness

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Mambrino » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:40 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Y'all are putting too much politics into an essentially ethnic conflict.

Western Ukraine is full of Ukrainians - who hate Russia for repeated genocide attempts under the USSR.

Eastern Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians the USSR shipped in to replace the Ukrainians they'd exterminated.

Understandably the two groups have rather different ideas towards mother Russia, and don't like each other much.


While the shipments did happen, I think it should be noted that Crimea and other parts what constitutes Eastern Ukraine today was a part of Russia for some time even under the Czar, before the USSR. (I think that's the reason why Stalin decided to ship more ethnic Russians there in first place.) Not that it has always been, this recent turn of events is long rooted in history, see Crimean War.

Also,

cphite wrote:
sardia wrote:
yurell wrote:Is he still the president? I thought parliament had stripped him of that position.

Does it matter? His potential to start a civil war/insurrection remains regardless of his title.


He was (is) a Russian puppet. The fact that he had his opponent jailed for the "crime" of running against him in his election should have been a clue as to what he represented.

It seems the people finally had enough of being led indirectly by Russia; all the best to them.


I have no expertise in Ukrainian politics more than I read from the newspapers, but it isn't as simple as ex-President being a Russian puppet. I don't think Putin could control him enough to that, I've understood that it's more like he was a troublesome 'ally' for Moscow that was more dependent of Kreml than Kreml was of him?

Concerning whether Yanukovich is president, well, he was apparently legally ousted by the parliament ('apparently', as in I don't know the relevant Ukrainian laws concerning impeaching their president, but it seems legit), but Russians may be able to dispute (justified or not) that on the basis that Parliament building was allegedly controlled by the Euromaidan protesters. The other point of view (of Maidaners) is that apparently there was not other security present in the Parliament building and they were protecting Parliament so that the session could commence undisturbed.

EDIT: Some clarifications

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Vahir » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:53 am UTC

Mambrino wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:Y'all are putting too much politics into an essentially ethnic conflict.

Western Ukraine is full of Ukrainians - who hate Russia for repeated genocide attempts under the USSR.

Eastern Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians the USSR shipped in to replace the Ukrainians they'd exterminated.

Understandably the two groups have rather different ideas towards mother Russia, and don't like each other much.


While the shipments did happen, I think it should be noted that Crimea and other parts what constitutes Eastern Ukraine today was a part of Russia for some time even under the Czar, before the USSR. (I think that's the reason why Stalin decided to ship more ethnic Russians there in first place.) Not that it has always been, this recent turn of events is long rooted in history, see Crimean War.


It's a redundant debate anyway. Ethnicities are both arbitrary and imaginary; why fight over it?

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:26 am UTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol
A little Off Topic.

The things I learn or think I do.
The California wine producing area was named after a place in the Ukraine?

Is that not interesting.
Those two places have the Same in what other ways?

Climate? Beauty? Wine and Roses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol#Climate

Yes. If the internet is to be believed;
It is prettier there than it is here.

It is a Beautiful Place.
Odessa is there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
Odessa has been Famous for a very long time.

The wikipedia article says it has been there sense 1440.
I don't know where I got the silly idea Odessa was older than that. (shrug)

Back to your regularly scheduled program of Who's on First.
I have no idea how they will decide to govern themselves.

I thought the US had a fairly stable system.
It was ok, for a while. It is not ok, now.

Maybe, Governmental Systems get old and worn out.
Like an automobile. A new one is in order, once in a while.

What kind would you have?
If you could have one, what kind would it be?

PoliSci Majors study the different kinds.
They know Governmental Systems the way we know fungi from fish.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Zamfir » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:13 am UTC

Vahir wrote:It's a redundant debate anyway. Ethnicities are both arbitrary and imaginary; why fight over it?

Because it matters a lot whether you belong to a dominant group, or not. It decides whether you will have to conduct much of your business in your language that you master, or in someone else's language that they master. Including the school performance of your kids. It decides whether you het to choose how much discrimination you like to do or tolerate against others, or that others get to choose how much discrimination will happen to you. Whetherhe powerful people (in government and elsewhere) have similar ideas to yours, and how much they identify with you. Etc.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:29 am UTC

Yes. Zamfir;
You do need to type it, over and over.
It is difficult to understand and difficult to remember.

Ethnic is not, just, interesting colored skin, hair and eyes.
Ethnic is not, just, interesting fashion.

Good will can ease a great many human-to-human problems.
So strange. How do we cultivate good will? I forget.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Grop » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:45 am UTC

addams wrote:The wikipedia article says it has been there sense 1440.
I don't know where I got the silly idea Odessa was older than that. (shrug)


But then Kiev is quite old, probably older than any city in Russia.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:19 pm UTC

Indeed Kiev was the Capital of the Keivan Rus empire(?) the forerunner of Russia as we know it today, hence why Moscow see Ukraine symbolically important as well as strategically.

I think the Mongols did them in - Khaaaannnnn!

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:32 pm UTC

Funny thing is that while the Mongols conquered like an Alexander on roids, they actually installed an economy and domestic policy, which is why the mega empire lasted longer than the Golden Horde. Basically it amounted to free religion and strong encouragement of trade. Whenever someone wanted to take power and conquer a neighbor, the merchants would ALL gang up and shut that down. It wasn't until the bubonic plague cut off trade that the Mongolian Empire ended.

Anyway, while the Mongols conquered most of Russia, they didn't exactly leave it as a scorched earth.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Vahir » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Funny thing is that while the Mongols conquered like an Alexander on roids, they actually installed an economy and domestic policy, which is why the mega empire lasted longer than the Golden Horde. Basically it amounted to free religion and strong encouragement of trade. Whenever someone wanted to take power and conquer a neighbor, the merchants would ALL gang up and shut that down. It wasn't until the bubonic plague cut off trade that the Mongolian Empire ended.

Anyway, while the Mongols conquered most of Russia, they didn't exactly leave it as a scorched earth.


Yes, a nice place altogether, if you ignore the large scale slave raids on their neighbours.

Zamfir wrote:Because it matters a lot whether you belong to a dominant group, or not. It decides whether you will have to conduct much of your business in your language that you master, or in someone else's language that they master. Including the school performance of your kids. It decides whether you het to choose how much discrimination you like to do or tolerate against others, or that others get to choose how much discrimination will happen to you. Whetherhe powerful people (in government and elsewhere) have similar ideas to yours, and how much they identify with you. Etc.


Language is the only legitimate obstacle you mentioned. All the rest the discrimination, the intolerance and so on, are the direct result of ethnicites as a concept. We think, they're "Russian", they're different, we need to exclude them, ect. .

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:Yes, a nice place altogether, if you ignore the large scale slave raids on their neighbours.


And that makes them worse than any other contemporary empire how?

Vahir wrote:Language is the only legitimate obstacle you mentioned. All the rest the discrimination, the intolerance and so on, are the direct result of ethnicites as a concept. We think, they're "Russian", they're different, we need to exclude them, ect. .


Except generally, you can tell at a glance who is and is not part of your ethnicity, so it's not entirely an imaginary divide. It's a fairly easy 'us vs them', and when the food runs out and someone has to die, people usually choose the person least connected to themselves as that Someone.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:13 am UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/world ... world&_r=0
Putin holds snap military exercises
"Russia’s military exercise will involve nearly 150,000 troops, including the entire Western Military District, one of four across the country, as well as hundreds of tanks and artillery batteries, and dozens of aircraft and ships, the deputy defense minister, Anatoly I. Antonov, said, according to Interfax."

I'm guessing if things go badly for Russia, they'll just invade and take the pro-russian part of the country, like they did with Georgia.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby EMTP » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:58 am UTC

I think the term "corruption" as used here may obscure as much as it clarifies.

The society of the former Soviet Union -- as in many other places around the world -- was accepting of a certain degree of profiting off one's relationship with the government. This is a broadly accepted strategy for survival, and in calling it "corrupt" you give a sense of moral failure and compromised integrity that is not always accurate. As an analogy, you might want to ask whether we should describe our society, where most people have sex out of wedlock and may children are born out of wedlock, as "sexually corrupt."

(May experience of Russia and the Ukraine comes from living in those two countries from 1993-1995. About two years in Russia, three months in Ukraine. So I have a certain amount of firsthand experience.)

There has been a significant amount of kleptocracy in both Russia and Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Union. That is significant to what's happening. There is also a lot of greasing of palms and trading of favors required to get anything done in business or in government. That is also "corruption" by the common definition, but viewed from the ground, the two processes look very different.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong: there's a lot of corruption in Ukraine, as the word is commonly defined. I would only suggest that perhaps trying to be specific about the workings of these societies and how they impact on the current situation might be more illuminating than the somewhat vague and emotive term "corruption."
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:53 am UTC

EMTP wrote:I think the term "corruption" as used here may obscure as much as it clarifies.

The society of the former Soviet Union -- as in many other places around the world -- was accepting of a certain degree of profiting off one's relationship with the government. This is a broadly accepted strategy for survival, and in calling it "corrupt" you give a sense of moral failure and compromised integrity that is not always accurate. As an analogy, you might want to ask whether we should describe our society, where most people have sex out of wedlock and may children are born out of wedlock, as "sexually corrupt."


There is no comparison. The whole system of Blat went against everything that Communism ostensibly stood for. It was blatantly a black market and the government turned a blind eye to it because simply put, central planning was a terrible idea. "Market Research" by the Soviet government literally amounted to sending spies to the First World and Moscow, yet Russia would set the prices as if it were Florida. The result was things like wheat being overpriced, fruits being under priced, etc. People got around the price controls with Blat, basically saying "alright, I'll buy your oranges, but can you gift me that bottle of Vodka as a gift, comrade?". Aside from being "wrong" according to every piece of government propaganda, it was horribly inefficient, and the result was often exploitation of the poorly-connected working classes that made the average company town look like a socialist paradise.

As for sex out of wedlock, marriage being the norm is actually very new. Until the Renaissance, peasants had effectively common-law marriages (Alice lives with Bob), but the whole village was basically one giant incestuous orgy. The nobles and the merchants got married, but they could actually afford things like wedding ceremonies (and marriages were more political than anything to do with love). Sure, the peasants were ostensibly good little Christians, but for the most part they didn't give a flying fuck. Hell, even the friaries and nunneries weren't exactly models of purity. But some Italian sailors bring back syphilis from the Americas, huge swaths of the population more or less rot to death, and suddenly people are declaring that STDs are God's Wrath for anything other than Good Christian Marital Relations.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby EMTP » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:11 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:There is no comparison. The whole system of Blat went against everything that Communism ostensibly stood for. It was blatantly a black market and the government turned a blind eye to it because simply put, central planning was a terrible idea. "Market Research" by the Soviet government literally amounted to sending spies to the First World and Moscow, yet Russia would set the prices as if it were Florida. The result was things like wheat being overpriced, fruits being under priced, etc. People got around the price controls with Blat, basically saying "alright, I'll buy your oranges, but can you gift me that bottle of Vodka as a gift, comrade?". Aside from being "wrong" according to every piece of government propaganda, it was horribly inefficient, and the result was often exploitation of the poorly-connected working classes that made the average company town look like a socialist paradise.

As for sex out of wedlock, marriage being the norm is actually very new. Until the Renaissance, peasants had effectively common-law marriages (Alice lives with Bob), but the whole village was basically one giant incestuous orgy. The nobles and the merchants got married, but they could actually afford things like wedding ceremonies (and marriages were more political than anything to do with love). Sure, the peasants were ostensibly good little Christians, but for the most part they didn't give a flying fuck. Hell, even the friaries and nunneries weren't exactly models of purity. But some Italian sailors bring back syphilis from the Americas, huge swaths of the population more or less rot to death, and suddenly people are declaring that STDs are God's Wrath for anything other than Good Christian Marital Relations.


I don't think you're really addressing my point, here. "Corruption" is a vague and emotive term used to describe a wide variety of behaviors. It's probably not useful. "Sheds more heat than light" as the saying goes.

And you rather make my point by saying "marriage being the norm is actually very new." The notion of a scrupulous separation between public office and private privilege, between public assets and private ones, is also very new. The blanket indictment of foreign societies as "corrupt" assumes as natural an entire host of assumptions and value judgements that are very recent and imperfectly adhered to even in the developed West.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:53 am UTC

If we define "corruption" as "inefficiency", I'd say Ukraine and Russia are incredibly corrupt.

That is, let's say it costs $10m to build a road, construction costs alone that is. If by giving the project over to the mayor's best friend it is now $15m to build a road, I'd say that corruption raises costs by 50%. If for example, $50B is spent on the Winter Olympics for stuff that only costs $10B to produce, I'd says corruption raises costs by 400%. Obviously it's hard to determine exact numbers, but obviously something is very wrong with the Winter Olympics.



Oh, and I have actually spoken with Ukrainians. They all hate the corruption in Ukraine. Did you know that even the police are terrified? My coworker's friend was basically robbed at gunpoint for his police uniform and badge, etc, and the police department basically said 'tough shit', because apparently the police have to actually be part of the local mafias to avoid being robbed. So one half of the police force is actually a bunch of criminals, and the other half of the police force is actually a bunch of criminals impersonating the police. Fun times.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:07 am UTC

That sounds like the US.
Well… Not being robed for his Uniform.

Here they Kill 'em.
And; From what I understand Police against Police is as common as Gang members against Gang members.
Sure; Members in Good Standing think everything is fine.
Members in Bad Standing…..Dead men tell no tales.

Back to Blat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_(term)
Is that Common Knowledge among the Forum readers?

That is a strange and complicated system.
Like Street Drug Deals.

The Rules and Prices are in constant flux.
Or; Like All Asian Commerce!

They tell me there are no prices on Anything.
The price changes depending upon how much the seller likes the buyer.

The price changes depending on the buyers social status.
The price changes if the buyer has Connections.
Spoiler:
Connections not concoctions.
Although; Stories from the Far East had concoctions in them.[spoiler]
[/spoiler]


So many rules.
From what I understand,
they don't like people to pay the first price quoted.

It's as if you don't care.
If you won't argue for a while you don't want to know the person.
They get their feelings hurt.

For God's sake don't tell them you don't care!
Maybe they caught the Blat mind virus from the Asians.

They are a little far north for full blown hissy-fits over minor social slights.
Are they not?

I guess we can expect them to be Human.
Humans are all pretty much the same.

We learn to be social.
From what I understand some Blat was not, just, survival.
Blat was, and may still be, a Social Dance.
Last edited by addams on Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:15 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Zamfir » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:26 am UTC

Language is the only legitimate obstacle you mentioned. All the rest the discrimination, the intolerance and so on, are the direct result of ethnicites as a concept. We think, they're "Russian", they're different, we need to exclude them, ect. .

I am not sure what you are driving at. You seem to suggest that people in the Ukraine should just get together and decide to abolish animosity, rivalry and distrust between themselves. But if that was easy to do, there would be no tensions anyway.

But those tensions are real. They are also arbitrary and imaginary, as you say above, but all human relations are. Doesn't make them any less important. (Some) Russian speakers worry that they will become a vulnerable minority,
others worry that Russian speakers have disproportionate power. Those are reasonable worries, and while such worries might be settled in a congenial manner, there is no guarantee that this will happen.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Diadem » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:44 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If we define "corruption" as "inefficiency", I'd say Ukraine and Russia are incredibly corrupt.

And if we define 'making sense' as 'being entirely disconnected from reality' than that statement makes perfect sense.

Arbitrarily redefining words in the middle of a discussion is not useful, and only leads to confusion and misunderstanding. It is also somewhat disingenuous.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:09 pm UTC

If like in the western world you claim state legitmacy because its reason for existence is to aid the common good (and if you don't then the state really is a mafia) then deliberately using the power of the state for personal gain i.e. corruption is wrong (definitionally and to most people morally) . The fact that its instituationalised in a lot of countries doesn't really change this.

Oh and the odds of Russia performing a military incursion on direct border neighbour to the EU are very close to zero. For all its faults Russia doesn't want to trigger wars it won't win*

(* note there are no "winners" in a major war, just gradients of loser)

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:31 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If we define "corruption" as "inefficiency", I'd say Ukraine and Russia are incredibly corrupt.

And if we define 'making sense' as 'being entirely disconnected from reality' than that statement makes perfect sense.

Arbitrarily redefining words in the middle of a discussion is not useful, and only leads to confusion and misunderstanding. It is also somewhat disingenuous.


Except EMTP is trying to claim that since Russia and Ukraine are so used to tit for tat and personal connections within government for massively overpaid work, that it isn't fair for us to call it "corruption". Because Culture makes it OK. So how do you define corruption in both a meaningful and measurable sense?

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sardia
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:42 pm UTC

leady wrote:If like in the western world you claim state legitmacy because its reason for existence is to aid the common good (and if you don't then the state really is a mafia) then deliberately using the power of the state for personal gain i.e. corruption is wrong (definitionally and to most people morally) . The fact that its instituationalised in a lot of countries doesn't really change this.

Oh and the odds of Russia performing a military incursion on direct border neighbour to the EU are very close to zero. For all its faults Russia doesn't want to trigger wars it won't win*

(* note there are no "winners" in a major war, just gradients of loser)

Very close to zero? I'd reevaluate that again in a couple weeks if I were you.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:18 pm UTC

I wish I had a time machine too :)

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:08 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Language is the only legitimate obstacle you mentioned. All the rest the discrimination, the intolerance and so on, are the direct result of ethnicites as a concept. We think, they're "Russian", they're different, we need to exclude them, ect. .

I am not sure what you are driving at. You seem to suggest that people in the Ukraine should just get together and decide to abolish animosity, rivalry and distrust between themselves. But if that was easy to do, there would be no tensions anyway.

But those tensions are real. They are also arbitrary and imaginary, as you say above, but all human relations are. Doesn't make them any less important. (Some) Russian speakers worry that they will become a vulnerable minority,
others worry that Russian speakers have disproportionate power. Those are reasonable worries, and while such worries might be settled in a congenial manner, there is no guarantee that this will happen.

Damn it!
This Forum has placed a Pavlovian Trigger in my head.
I thought it was funny, then.
I think it is funny, now.

Belgum. The word makes me laugh.
Belgum is no laughing matter to the people that live there.

They have or had the problem you described in the above post.
That is what I was told. French and Flimish.

I don't know who you were hanging out with.
But; Some of those people speak five languages.

The Official Language was Flemish.
The French people wanted official forms in French.

The Flemish said, "You want to read French, Go to France."
The French did what French people do.

Some got angry.
The Angry fractaled out into those with nothing to lose and those that encouraged them.

Some got depressed and cried.
You know;... French.

Some got busy, learned French, Flemish and three other languages, because it's a tradition with Belgium people.
And; To this day, from what I understand, those people will argue about the French using Flemish.

The Flemish language may have been developed as a tool to argue about the French with.
"Familiarity Breeds Contempt?"

What do The People want?
I read somewhere that the People of The Ukraine want to be EU.

They don't want to be a State of Russia, anymore.
They don't want to "Go It Alone.'

They want to meet and exceed the EU standards.
They want to contribute to the EU and stand as a proud part of something they believe in.

What is the difference between a State being aligned with One Super Power or a Different Super Power?
ech. Like the US and Mexico or the US and Canada?

What if Texas succeeded from the Union.
They have been talking about it, off and on, sense the Mexican/American War, Or; Before.
What if They Did It?

Then a few years down the road, Texas decided to be part of Mexico, again?
Would that be a problem? What about the English in Texas?

Are The Russians in the Ukraine like the English in Texas.
You can, kind of, tell they are of a different ethnicity.

It is not, just, color. They dress different.
They speak almost exclusively English.

As long as Texas is independent or part of the US,
The English in Texas are fine.

If Texas becomes a State of Mexico,
Those English might act like the French.

Same with the Ukraine?

As long as Ukraine is independent or part of Russia,
The Russians in the Ukraine are fine.

If the Ukraine becomes a State of the EU,
Those Russians might act like the French.

Well? What do you really think people are doing?
They are being People!

With all of our Variety, we are a lot the same.
Those Belgium people are onto something.

Those Belgium people are part of the EU.
Tell them to fix it.

Chances are good they speak both languages.
What does the EU say?

jeeze. Those guys are into Peace as a way of Life.
They do not want to fight over the Ukraine.
Do they?

What does the Ukraine have to offer the EU?
Snotty, snarky people and a vulnerable sea port?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby leady » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

hot women and vodka

Thats more value than France :)

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby aoeu » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:42 pm UTC

The insight on corruption is that in a corrupt country pointing out to Westerners that someone is corrupt just means you don't like him too much. Also, even if it would easy for Russia to apply some military power, it wouldn't achieve much for them. The Russians left on the wrong side of the border would be worse off and Russia's influence of that side would be diminished.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:23 pm UTC

leady wrote:hot women and vodka

Thats more value than France :)

Alright!
The Ukrane is 'In'.
They have to go through, (dada-daa dum), The Process.
What happens?
The EU is all up in the New States stuff.

What are your Jails like?
What are you Court Houses like?

Where are the Hospitals?
You do have Hospitals. correct?

Ech. Paper work and inspections and Group Hugs all around.
The people from the EU have seen Vodka and Naked women, before.

Some have never seen the Steps of Odessa.
How exciting. Watch for Influx of Tourists?

Where will the EU offices be?
*closes eyes and crosses fingers*
Odessa; Odessa; Odessa.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Grop
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Grop » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:51 pm UTC

addams wrote:Some have never seen the Steps of Odessa.


And yet many of us have seen Battleship Potemkin :D.

Also I am not sure UE will be so eager to have Ukraine join it when Ukraine is stable.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Diadem wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If we define "corruption" as "inefficiency", I'd say Ukraine and Russia are incredibly corrupt.

And if we define 'making sense' as 'being entirely disconnected from reality' than that statement makes perfect sense.

Arbitrarily redefining words in the middle of a discussion is not useful, and only leads to confusion and misunderstanding. It is also somewhat disingenuous.


Except EMTP is trying to claim that since Russia and Ukraine are so used to tit for tat and personal connections within government for massively overpaid work, that it isn't fair for us to call it "corruption". Because Culture makes it OK. So how do you define corruption in both a meaningful and measurable sense?


Economic laws care surprisingly little about how much your culture accepts it. It still results in an inefficient market.

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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby addams » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:29 am UTC

Grop wrote:
addams wrote:Some have never seen the Steps of Odessa.


And yet many of us have seen Battleship Potemkin :D.

Also I am not sure UE will be so eager to have Ukraine join it when Ukraine is stable.

Battleship Potemkin.
You saw it, too?

I would like to tell you, "I saw it as a 'new release'.
You would, simply, believe me. (ho hum) So; I won't.

The Ukraine has a lot to offer the EU.
What?? Greece is good enough and the Ukraine is not?

That makes no sense.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Grop
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Re: Ukraine Government and Economy Falls

Postby Grop » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:14 pm UTC

addams wrote:Battleship Potemkin.
You saw it, too?

...

The Ukraine has a lot to offer the EU.
What?? Greece is good enough and the Ukraine is not?

That makes no sense.


(I didn't see it in a theater).

And no, EU makes no sense in that regard. For instance Cyprus is good enough, but Turkey is not.


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