Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:37 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
sardia wrote:Battlemoose, how many western media outlets are you accusing of being anti-Russian propaganda machines? You laid out criteria that is summed up to: We want it, they have it, let's take it. How relevant is the fact that Catherine the Great built Crimea? How relevant is the fact that you omitted the expulsion of native Crimeans? Why did you dumb down the history of Crimea,
Spoiler:
In the 9th century, Byzantium established the Cherson theme to fend against incursions by the Rus' Khaganate, and the Crimean peninsula from this time was contested between Byzantium, Rus' and Khazaria. The area remained the site of overlapping interests and contact between the early medieval Slavic, Turkic and Greek spheres, and became a center of slave trade in particular, the word slave itself deriving from the ethnonym of the Slavs who were sold to the Muslim world and Byzantium during this period. In the 1230s, this status quo was swept away by the Mongol invasions, and Crimea was incorporated into the territory of the Golden Horde throughout the 14th century. Armenian monastery of the Holy Cross (Սուրբ Խաչ), established in 1358 attests to a considerable Armenian presence in Crimea in the Middle Ages The Crimean Khanate, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire, succeeded the Golden Horde and lasted from 1449 to 1779.[12] Until the late 18th century, Crimean Tatars maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire, exporting about 2 million slaves from Russia and Ukraine over the period 1500–1700.[13] The Khanate was conquered by the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great in 1783. From 1853 to 1856, the peninsula was the site of the principal engagements of the Crimean War, a conflict fought between the Russian Empire and an alliance of France, Britain, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia. During the Russian Civil War, Crimea was controlled by the White Army. After they were defeated by the Red Army, Crimea became part of the Soviet Union in 1921 as Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. In the Second World War the peninsula was occupied by Nazi Germany for several years. In 1954, it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union.[14] In 1991, it became part of independent Ukraine as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. As a result of the 2014 Crimean crisis, the accompanying Russian military intervention and the Crimean status referendum, 2014, the sovereignty over the peninsula is currently disputed between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. The peninsula is de facto controlled by the Russian Federation, in the form of two federal subjects: the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol.
into "Catherine the Great built Crimea. Therefore all other international norms and the rest of history is completely irrelevant. Also, Propaganda!"


I perceive it as fundamentally a Russian city full of majority Russian people. That Russia is getting it back, feels appropriate.

Yes.
I am with you.
It feels right.

It does not matter how it feels to me.
How does it feel to Them?

I read several statements made by people that were adults when they were made Ukrainian.
They seemed to be ok with being Ukrainian. They wanted to be Russian, too.

Like a person from Tennessee that likes Tennessee and want to be a Tennessee person.
Still, some people still like the idea of being American.

Maybe a better example would be one of the Mexican states.
They like being what-ever-it is they are; And, Mexican.

What about the Larger Picture?
If Russia expands her responsibilities, will she become overwhelmed?
Will she be fighting agitators? People and circumstances beyond her control?

Will they stick the name Terrorist on such people?
Will they gain and maintain Peace and Good Will?

Why any AssHole would fight against Peace and Prosperity is beyond me.
How we define Peace may be as various as our definitions of "Fun."

Peace is hard to do, under the best of circumstances.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:18 am UTC

sardia wrote:Just to confirm, are you saying that nothing the Russians did was wrong in any way or form? The only thing critical I heard you say of the Russians was the "naval troops acted outside their mandate".


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=108069&start=520#p3580590

You say that Western Media portrays the annexation as illegitimate. Do you think it is legal and right?

International law is a very odd thing and generally doesn't have any teeth or enforcement. Generally I find discussions regarding the legality of the actions of countries to be fairly moot. There isn't an enforcement agency with jurisdiction over the planet. Ultimately, no its not right.


sardia wrote:Battlemoose, again you're papering over the methods used to get back a "Russian" city/port/ important mcguffan. Invading another country isn't something a country does lightly. Starting a civil war in Ukraine to get more land was considered an act of war in the olden days.


I hardly think I am papering over the methods. If a civil war erupts in the Ukraine I expect it would have much more to do with the previous corrupt government of the Ukraine and the actual coup that happened in the Ukraine.

And I wouldn't position the story as Russia just trying to just get some more land... This is the type of attitude I find objectionable. This isn't just some land that Russia is claiming for the glory of Russian Imperialism. I personally think the Crimea is a part of Russia and should be a part of Russia. Assuming that is in fact what the people of the Crimea want. If we could get some real Russian perspectives on this that would be most helpful. How does Russian media perceive the Crimea?

“Crimea has always been an integral part of Russia in the hearts and minds of people,” Mr. Putin declared in his address, delivered in the chandeliered St. George’s Hall before hundreds of members of Parliament, governors and others.


Putin being a lying and abusive jerk face aside, I believe him on this point. And I would be interested to learn from Russians if I am horribly mistaken on this point.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:39 am UTC

Yes, definitely we should ask the population if the land their government invaded and seized belongs to them. Because Germans, Israelis, Serbs et al are such reliable judges of what borders are commensurate with their native greatness and historical destiny.
Last edited by EMTP on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:41 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:40 am UTC

Putin being a lying and abusive jerk face aside, I believe him on this point.

Is typing and saying, "Putin is a lying and abusive jerk face", a important thing to do?
Is it a thing we know the way the Baggers know, "Obama is a Muslim and not even an American."

I would like to move away from the Cult of Personality.
Calling the SpokesMan names does not seem productive.

I know!
If a person is dishonorable in their personal life,
they might be dishonorable in their professional life.

Still.
The Cult of Personality is not always a bad thing.
Do we 'Like' that guy? Do we like his ideas?

If we let go of the Cult of Personality for a moment,
we can ask, "Who wrote the speech? Do we like it?"

I am Old!
We often Read speeches.
The US president wrote a speech and we read it in the Newspaper.

Who writes what our Leaders say?
Sure. They look natural.

They are Trained Actors!
Like News People.

I liked the statement Putin made, too.
Do you think he wrote it?

It might have been the work of a committee.
Was Reagan the first to not write his own speeches?

Totally, off topic.
I remember being surprised.

He didn't write it.
He didn't understand it.

He also had an Astrologer.
It sure pissed Sagan off.

Reagan did not understand the difference between who Sagan was and who the HorribleScope Guy was.
And; Reagan did fine. It was a Committee position by then. right? His job was to read the lines.

What is Putin's Job?
Not; Is he doing it correctly?

What is The Job?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:59 am UTC

...Battlemoose, You're saying that the land grab isn't right but "As far as land grabs goes, its as legitimate as it gets." There's tons of better examples of legitimate land grabs that isn't 'send special forces into a foreign country'.
Specifically which fact or detail of Russian propaganda have I swallowed. Note, I cannot speak or read Russian.

1. Since Crimea is majority Russian, majority magically means 100% Russian.
2.Elite special forces with top end gear seizing the entire peninsula are magically described as "soldiers allowed in Crimea". You papered over the Russians leaving to invade Ukraine as "acting outside of their mandate".
3. Claiming Western media is exhibiting an anti-russian bias as opposed to describing the ugly reality. Show me 3 big headlines that show the anti-Russian bias.
4. Crimea suddenly means all of Eastern Ukraine. You went from Crimea is a legitimate land grab to Ukraine deserves the civil war in Eastern Ukraine because they committed the crime of opposing Russia. Again you paper over Russian instigation and involvement by victim blaming.
"Well she was totally asking for it, didn't you see how she was acting? I had to seize all her stuff, distribute it to would-be separatists and then disappear anyone who opposes the Russians."
5. Your very peculiar usage of "has russians in it, therefore taking it feels appropriate". Who taught you this? Did you ever consider the reverse process? If it doesn't have Russians in it, letting them go feels appropriate? Because that doesn't happen.
6. Ukrainians are so anti-Russian that Russia needs to invade...with nonuniformed special forces and instigating civil war in Eastern Ukraine, cuz that's part of Crimea too right?

You keep arguing that you're some objective third party who notices Western bias despite nobody else agreeing with you. Prove it. You're following the Russian line closely, despite your vehement denials. If you're not sure why either, then you need to reevaluate your position.

If you want to make arguments about power and might makes right, then do so. Don't try to hide it behind "Crimeans are russians and those Ukrainians are jerks who deserve all the bad shit that Putin is doing to them even though I, battlemoose, refuse to acknowledge that Russia is instigating a series of conflicts across Eastern Ukraine and Crimea".

Edit: I noticed you differentiated "right" and "legitimate"... way to confuse everyone.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:33 am UTC

Okay, lets deal with these one at a time.

1. Since Crimea is majority Russian, majority magically means 100% Russian.


I am very aware that the majority isn't magically 100%. I have never said anything that could lead you to believe that I do believe that.

2.Elite special forces with top end gear seizing the entire peninsula are magically described as "soldiers allowed in Crimea". You papered over the Russians leaving to invade Ukraine as "acting outside of their mandate".


I never said or claimed or believe that Russian forces were allowed to seize the peninsula.

3. Claiming Western media is exhibiting an anti-russian bias as opposed to describing the ugly reality. Show me 3 big headlines that show the anti-Russian bias.

Specifically which fact or detail of Russian propaganda have I swallowed.


4. Crimea suddenly means all of Eastern Ukraine. You went from Crimea is a legitimate land grab to Ukraine deserves the civil war in Eastern Ukraine because they committed the crime of opposing Russia. Again you paper over Russian instigation and involvement by victim blaming.


Bullshit. When I said Crimea I mean Crimea. I have never said anything relating to Russia taking Eastern Ukraine. I absolutely never ever ever said anything that could be misinterpreted as " Ukraine deserves a civil war." I have not laid any blame at anyone for this crisis.

5. Your very peculiar usage of "has russians in it, therefore taking it feels appropriate". Who taught you this? Did you ever consider the reverse process? If it doesn't have Russians in it, letting them go feels appropriate? Because that doesn't happen.


Specifically which fact or detail of Russian propaganda have I swallowed. Note, I cannot speak or read Russian.


6. Ukrainians are so anti-Russian that Russia needs to invade...with nonuniformed special forces and instigating civil war in Eastern Ukraine, cuz that's part of Crimea too right


Specifically which fact or detail of Russian propaganda have I swallowed. Note, I cannot speak or read Russian.


I never ever ever argued that Russia needs to invade. I have also stated that it wasn't right for her to do so.

If you're not sure why either, then you need to reevaluate your position.


Your previous ramble makes it clear that you really don't understand my position at all.

Don't try to hide it behind "Crimeans are russians


They very much are mostly Russian. I am not hiding behind it. Its very much in front.

and those Ukrainians are jerks who deserve all the bad shit that Putin is doing to them


What utter bullshit. I have never said anything that could even in the most perverse way be interpreted as this.

I am clearly wasting my time and I'm done here.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:59 am UTC

http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/29- ... ukraine-0/
Others are writing about the Ukraine.

This can be an opportunity to learn and relearn governance theory.

EDIT:
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politic ... old_war-0/
There are more.

I read one that went farther than a suggestion of Pointing Fingers at the US.
Some people seem to be willing to draw a line between the US and trouble in the Ukraine.

The timeline started when the president of Russia stepped forward and volunteered the Scientists from his nation to work within a responsible and transparent professional framework to identify and neutralize chemical weapons stores in Syria.

Was it all sunshine and blow jobs in the Ukraine before Russia's president stepped up and became
The World's new Golden Child a Voice of Reason? No.
It is not too hard to see the problems in the Ukraine as a way of distracting Leaders, Media and Jethro from Tallahassee.

"Another way to win Hearts and Minds", as our Leader used to say.
George W. was our leader and we heard from him weekly.

Who would want to distract The World from the Labor of Peace.
The labor of War is such an attention getter. Booms and gunfire.

If the Americans planed and acted to destabilize the Ukraine and even One American breaks rank, it could be a Black-Eye for the US.
With that kind of a Black-Eye she might need even more of a Distraction. What to do? What to do?

If the Americans are implicated in the Violence that started this, the Violence that cost 100 civilian lives..
If the Americans are implicated and evidence is brought forward. The World will look the other way?

Why? Because?
Because, we are a Gynormous Dysfunctional Family!

We would rater Eat the Elephant on the DiningRoom Table than acknowledge it exists.
It would be nice to have that German woman talking to her Hosts in Washington DC about cleaning up The Mess.

Russia can finish cleaning up the mess in the Ukraine.
Russia stood up and took leadership in cleaning up Chemical Weapons in Syria.

What are the chores of the US?
Keeping an eye on her Baggers?

Just how Close are McCain with his Ukrainian counterparts? Was he giving Bagger lessons?
I read an article that described at least one of the Politicians of the Ukraine as a Russian McCain.

How much lead time did McCain get?
He was over there. He had his War Drum.

I think the US should have some International Inspectors come in and take a look around.
Back in the old days, company was welcome. Even Russians. That was the Cold War.

The cold war sucked.
This is worse.

More, EDIT:
I am morbidly fascinated with this subject.
I hope it runs its course quickly.

According to the American president, his administration has already succeeded in isolating Russia internationally. Furthermore, the US has managed to mobilize the international community to put pressure on Moscow. Obama believes that this method of influence is more effective than, for example, a move to supply weapons to Ukraine.


So, some guy in the US thinks he has two choices.
1. Shun and Isolate Russia. Harm her and her leaders economically.
(that does seem like a US tactic. she does that to her own people, when displeased with them. i know. I am one of her victims.)

2. Ship Weapons into the Ukraine.
(that seems like a very Stupid Threat.)

If Germany and France and Poland and Czech Republic said, "No." to the US,
Would she be forced into shipping weapons? Forced?

Maybe it is made up.
Maybe Mr. Obama did not says such a thing.
Maybe.

Those people that live in the LimeLight are not allowed to have Freudian Slips and Rants, at will.
The presidency of the US does not pay well enough for the amount of trouble it is.

400K is well enough, I suppose.
That position got a raise.
http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/vi ... nistration

If he lives, he is expected to make more during his post-presidency career?
That whole, if he lives Thing. Would you want The Job?

You know he lives in a Golden Cage. right?
He knows what he is told.

Is Russia's guy The Same?
Only knowing what he is told?

Who tells these guys what is what?
Is it a Loop?

This is a Comic Forum.
It may be funny.

They watch TV?
(dear god....)

ANOTHER EDIT: Of Course!
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economi ... _dragon-0/
I don't know if it is True or Not.
A couple of days ago, citing a source in diplomatic circles, Russian mass media reported that U.S. authorities failed to persuade the Chinese leadership to impose sanctions against Russia, even though US officials did their best to try. The attempts of the Obama administration to convince the Chinese leadership of the need to put pressure on Russia failed to succeed, although the talks reportedly started in the beginning of March. Meanwhile, the talks on gas supplies between Russia and China came to the final stage.

But; What if...

In my living memory, the US sent delegates to many Nations.
It was a very Strong Armed maneuver.

Like Family.
Like Business Partners.
Like Members of a Community.

"You have to Trust us on this one."
"Either you are For Us or you are Against Us."

"God! Bless America."

There were other very common words.

Those words came to us from a podium.
Those words came from the mouth of our highest ranking officer.

Those words were repeated by the Common Man.
Those words were repeated by the delegates.

We are creating another Global Crisis? Why?
The rest of The World has Things to do.

That is the way I want to read it.
The Great Powers are not talking about Punishing the US.

The US is still talking about Punishing Them?
I'll read it, again. What do you think?

I feel like explaining my point of view.


Spoiler:
We each have the Fairy Tails of our Youths.
I lived in a time and place that had Many Fairy Tails.

China is across The Water.
China is under the ground.

The Dragon.
The Dragon is in The Stars.

You can see the Dragon on dark winter nights.
It rises in the east. It must. Everything does.

One story that was told around Campfires was a story of What if...
What if the Commies win?

Then Russia and China would fight over the US.
That might be Bad for Children and Other Living Things.

War was generally considered to be a Bad Thing with the Bunch I hung out with.
If Russia and China are not at odds, but pulling in the same direction, together?

Well...That would be quite the Pull.
What way will they decide to Pull?

Into The Future?
What kind of a Future?

Loads of Renewable Energy and Technology?
Egalitarian Values?

Gee. Sounds pretty good to me.
Egalitarian Values.

Egalitarian Values get on some people's nerves.
Each man, woman and dog must prove its self.

Egalitarian Values does not always wash well with American Exceptionalism.
It would if we were exceptional. Some of us might be.

After 15 to 17 years of War.
After 15 to 17 years of Anti-Intelectual propaganda.

We may look like a strong nation.
I think it may be, only, skin deep.

Maybe, if we back off, They won't kick our Ass.
Do you think we could back off?

Not and save face?
That's funny.


Where The Fuck is McCain?
Is he still going to Kick Russia's Ass all by himself?

He is writing and speaking.
oh! oh! I read that he is not only a Household Name.
He has become the Least Popular Congress Guy.
In his article, Obama blamed "U.S.-Soviet tensions largely on America's war mentality and the twisted logic of the Cold War," McCain said, quoting from Goldberg. "President Reagan's defense buildup, according to Obama, contributed to the 'silent spread of militarism' and reflected our 'distorted national priorities' rather than what should be our goal: a 'nuclear free world.'"

"That's what student Obama said," McCain added, before making the case that the president's approach to Russia was fundamentally naive.

"The remarkable thing is that two weeks ago in response to tensions in Ukraine, two weeks ago, the president explained that -- quote -- 'Our approach is not to see events in Ukraine as some Cold War chessboard in which we're in competition with Russia,'" McCain said. "This is a horrible way to talk about the Cold War, because it starts from the premise that it all was just a game conducted between two morally equivalent competitors."

What??
ok. He misses the Cold War, too.

It is ok to wax nustasic for our Youths.
Possible death coming from Russian missiles.

Loads of Great Sex got started by those Missiles.
Loads of Great Babies, too.

He was Young.
Of course, it all looked like a Noble Cause.

No matter what side a person was Rooting for,
It was a Noble Cause.

Most Rooted for Terra Ferma.
Those were some scary bombs.

Mr. McCain is an old man with a Fossilized World View.
That is the most generous thing that can be said about him.

He may be a Paid Shill.
Paid to help destabilize the Nation of Russia.

That would be a bad thing.
No one could say, "Boo." to him about it.

He is safe and secure in his Tower made of Money.
He, like his ilk from before I was born is, just, an old man.

Who backs that sort of an Idea?
Everybody? Why? Good, PR?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y773WaIe ... RAd8WVhPyY
Last edited by addams on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:21 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:23 am UTC

addams wrote:http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/29-04-2014/127472-federalism_ukraine-0/
Others are writing about the Ukraine.

This can be an opportunity to learn and relearn governance theory.


This seems like an interesting article. Thanks for the link addams :)
Definetly going to read it as soon as I have time for it

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Ormurinn » Sat May 03, 2014 7:50 am UTC

"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Mambrino » Sat May 03, 2014 11:41 am UTC



That was blatantly heinous act, whether they were mere 'peaceful anti-government protesters' or not, and guess what, they might even had been. Whether the perpetrators (the correct ones, instead of 'usual suspects') will be caught remains to be seen. The Kiev government blames saboteurs financed by Yanukovich, but even if such agents are active in area, for once I'm quite inclined to find the RT version of events not only plausible, but possibly quite likely.

The overall situation seems to be deteriorating: Reuters (via Guardian livefeed)
Reuters reports that the head of Ukraine’s anti-terrorist centre said there was heavy fighting in the eastern town of Kramatorsk, south of the rebel stronghold Slavyansk.
Offering few details, Vasyl Krutov told a news conference: “There is gunfire and clashes around Kramatorsk … what we are facing in the Donetsk region and in the eastern regions is not just some kind of short-lived uprising, it is in fact a war.”


Yeah, as everyone suspected (I figure?), the so-called 'anti-terrorist operation' is starting to look more like a first shots of a civil war than a special police operation.

A lone positive piece of news: Abducted OSCE observers freed (BBC)

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sat May 03, 2014 1:41 pm UTC


Someone set fire to a Public Building? (fuck)
If you were a Responsible Adult; What would you do?
How Pissed Off would you be?

46 individual human beings?
For Why? For because they Can?

Who is Telling this story?
How old was that building?

Is there anything left of it?
Will they rebuild?

What will The Memorial be like?
Simply the Date of the Fire and the Names and birth dates of the Dead?

We can have that Now.
In Brass? Digital can look like Brass.

I've seen Europeans.
They are pretty much The Same.

They have loads and loads of Memorials.
Who to Blame? (fuck) In a War?

That is War.
If you were a Responsible Adult;
What would you do?

Have a Temper Tantrum?
Yep. Me, too.

And; That's why every word is Not Public.


People must be Ranting and Raving.
People in modest homes.

People in Ivory Towers.
People Everywhere that news reaches.

Some people learn history in an entirely different way from the way most Americans learn history.
How long before This is in The History Books?

I want to Jump Forward.
I want to Jump to the Memorial.

Memorials give a thing a sense of Closure.
They probably have Rules.

Someone told me a Year is Required.
They can't put up the Memorial for a year.

A year is a long time, to me.

edit:
Of course.
Does Public Opinion count for something?
What?

I found this, on the link.
Spoiler:
Graziano Priotto 03.05.2014 16:04
The fascist hunting dogs at the order of Obama and EU are murdering the Ukrainian people ... claiming they are just after terrorists. The hypocrisy is the only things these criminals have in common (Svoboda, Prave Sektor, EU and USA government), each of them follows other targets, all shameful: the EU leader (Germany) see a new chance to regain Ukraine with the help of the same fascist parties who were allied to Hitler. As German citizen I feel deeply ashamed for the servility of my government to the interests of the USA imperialism and beg Ukrainian people for pardon.


The Passion of The Moment?
Like the Boycott of The Day?

Is it whispered or said outright?
Who has The Freedom to Question?

To Question The Party Line?
What is The Party Line?

I forget!
Who's On First??

Why is a German writing in English?
Do they do that a lot?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby engr » Sat May 03, 2014 11:55 pm UTC



Oh come on Ormurinn, obviously that didn't happen because it's Russian media that's reporting it. Until we hear it from the talking heads on CNN and BBC, this is all complete bullshit and Russian propaganda. This AP video is also bullshit, because it's on YouTube.

There were clashes between nationalists (pro-EU) and federalists (pro-Russian) in Odessa. Federalists tried to hide from the mob inside the House of Trade Unions, and nationalists first burned down the tents of federalists, then started throwing molotov cocktails and set the building on fire. They would not let firefighters get close to the building, and police basically wasn't doing anything. When the fire service arrived, it was way too late. Some federalists tried to escape the burning building, but nationalists would push them back or beat them to a bloody pulp.

Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians. Last fall they did it the the riot police in Kiev. Now they are doing it to protesters in Odessa. True fighters for democracy.

Photos of the aftermath (WARNING: very graphic, and, obviously, Russian propaganda, because it wasn't shown on CNN or Al Jazeera).
Text in Russian says:

And now watch.
And don't tell me you didn't see it.
It took all my strength to go and see it. Only three of us were allowed to go in, and I must show this to everyone.
Odessa, House of Trade Unions, May 3, 2014.
Photos by Alyona Nikolayenko.
Last edited by engr on Sun May 04, 2014 3:11 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Sun May 04, 2014 2:26 am UTC

Mambrino wrote:


That was blatantly heinous act, whether they were mere 'peaceful anti-government protesters' or not, and guess what, they might even had been. Whether the perpetrators (the correct ones, instead of 'usual suspects') will be caught remains to be seen. The Kiev government blames saboteurs financed by Yanukovich, but even if such agents are active in area, for once I'm quite inclined to find the RT version of events not only plausible, but possibly quite likely.

The overall situation seems to be deteriorating: Reuters (via Guardian livefeed)
Reuters reports that the head of Ukraine’s anti-terrorist centre said there was heavy fighting in the eastern town of Kramatorsk, south of the rebel stronghold Slavyansk.
Offering few details, Vasyl Krutov told a news conference: “There is gunfire and clashes around Kramatorsk … what we are facing in the Donetsk region and in the eastern regions is not just some kind of short-lived uprising, it is in fact a war.”


Yeah, as everyone suspected (I figure?), the so-called 'anti-terrorist operation' is starting to look more like a first shots of a civil war than a special police operation.

A lone positive piece of news: Abducted OSCE observers freed (BBC)

I won't make predictions as to how much worse the situation can get.
The prisoner release, was done at Russia's behest to keep Germany from throwing out full on sanctions. I'm curious how much influence Russia actually has, because I know some of it's influence comes from acting like it's leading the rebels. The real test comes if/when Russia decides to cut it's losses and pursue a ceasefire of some sort. Now that's a big if.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sun May 04, 2014 3:28 am UTC

engr wrote:


Oh come on Ormurinn, obviously that didn't happen because it's Russian media that's reporting it. Until we hear it from the talking heads on CNN and BBC, this is all complete bullshit and Russian propaganda. This AP video is also bullshit, because it's on YouTube.

There were clashes between nationalists (pro-EU) and federalists (pro-Russian) in Odessa. Federalists tried to hide from the mob inside the House of Trade Unions, and nationalists first burned down the tents of federalists, then started throwing molotov cocktails and set the building on fire. They would not let firefighters get close to the building, and police basically wasn't doing anything. When the fire service arrived, it was way too late. Some federalists tried to escape the burning building, but nationalists would push them back or beat them to a bloody pulp.

Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians. Last fall they did it the the riot police in Kiev. Now they are doing it to protesters in Odessa. True fighters for democracy.

Photos of the aftermath (WARNING: very graphic, and, obviously, Russian propaganda, because it wasn't shown on CNN or Al Jazeera).
Text in Russian says:

And now watch.
And don't tell me you didn't see it.
It took all my strength to go and see it. Only three of us were allowed to go in, and I must show this to everyone.
Odessa, House of Trade Unions, May 3, 2014.
Photos by Alyona Nikolayenko.

Thank you for bringing it forward.
Thank you for placing a Warning on it.

I don't know who the sides are.
I do know those people were not planing on ending their lives that way.

This is and should be a very difficult time for the people in that place.
It seems that the people murdered their own people. That's bad.

Bring us better news, when you have it. ok?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby engr » Sun May 04, 2014 8:09 pm UTC

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Sun May 04, 2014 8:17 pm UTC

Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians.


Those would be the Russians that carried out the deliberate starvation of over six million Ukrainians. Yep, I'd say that's pretty barbaric. As an apologist for the Russian position, you may want to consider "What they were doing seventy years ago" as a talking point to avoid.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sun May 04, 2014 8:48 pm UTC


That clip is blocked.
It must be gruesome.

That's not better news.
I know. You may not have better news.

For the poster that brought news from 1933 in the Ukraine.
We have photos of that very same year US, with human beings starving to death within sight of American men pouring kerosine on food and lighting it on fire.

Why? Why would they do such a thing?
Because, They were believers.

They believed those People from ElseWhere would go away like Rats, if deprived of food.
They were right for the wrong reasons.

All of our world's events of 1933 are our History.

The people of the US are not doing much better, today.
Maybe, not any better.

The Americans 2014 are suffering from poverty.
Both of Pocket Book and of Mind.

The Russians?
I don't know.

The people that set a building on fire and kept it burning while My Brothers and Sisters were inside in 2014?
That seems to be more of a Current Affair. What is Wrong with Those People?

Please; Let us not paint all The People with the same brush.
There were people at home behaving themselves.
There were people at the protest, on both sides, that were behaving themselves.

Something went Terribly Wrong.
Was it planed to Go Wrong?

Can stability be regained?
What would that take?

All the Russian Army?
All of it? Everyman?

Are passions running high?
Or; Are people subdued by the enormity of what they have done?

What can make people stop and think?
I understand anger. I understand fear.

What would stop the mixing of the two?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zcorp » Sun May 04, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians.


Those would be the Russians that carried out the deliberate starvation of over six million Ukrainians. Yep, I'd say that's pretty barbaric. As an apologist for the Russian position, you may want to consider "What they were doing seventy years ago" as a talking point to avoid.

Good thing it wasn't his 'talking point' then.
I bolded the important part of his statement that you seemed to have missed. I can't speak to the legitimacy of the statement, but his accusation is that Ukraine has not has significant civic advancement in the last 70 years. Not that the Ukraine did bad things 70 years ago.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Mon May 05, 2014 12:55 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
EMTP wrote:
Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians.


Those would be the Russians that carried out the deliberate starvation of over six million Ukrainians. Yep, I'd say that's pretty barbaric. As an apologist for the Russian position, you may want to consider "What they were doing seventy years ago" as a talking point to avoid.

Good thing it wasn't his 'talking point' then.
I bolded the important part of his statement that you seemed to have missed. I can't speak to the legitimacy of the statement, but his accusation is that Ukraine has not has significant civic advancement in the last 70 years. Not that the Ukraine did bad things 70 years ago.


I think you missed -- or are choosing to ignore -- the attempt to smear Ukrainians as the kind of people who "burn Jews alive." You seem to be deaf to the hypocrisy of defending Russia by citing the bad things Russia's enemies did whilst resisting Stalinism.

I don't actually see how the (historically silly; their actual goal was to escape Stalin's genocidal regime) claim that "their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe" implies that the Ukrainians haven't had significant civic advancement. That seems to be your point; perhaps you would like to flesh it out a little.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Mon May 05, 2014 1:13 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
EMTP wrote:
Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now, their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe and to save it from barbaric Russians.


Those would be the Russians that carried out the deliberate starvation of over six million Ukrainians. Yep, I'd say that's pretty barbaric. As an apologist for the Russian position, you may want to consider "What they were doing seventy years ago" as a talking point to avoid.

Good thing it wasn't his 'talking point' then.
I bolded the important part of his statement that you seemed to have missed. I can't speak to the legitimacy of the statement, but his accusation is that Ukraine has not has significant civic advancement in the last 70 years. Not that the Ukraine did bad things 70 years ago.


I think you missed -- or are choosing to ignore -- the attempt to smear Ukrainians as the kind of people who "burn Jews alive." You seem to be deaf to the hypocrisy of defending Russia by citing the bad things Russia's enemies did whilst resisting Stalinism.

I don't actually see how the (historically silly; their actual goal was to escape Stalin's genocidal regime) claim that "their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe" implies that the Ukrainians haven't had significant civic advancement. That seems to be your point; perhaps you would like to flesh it out a little.

Gee. Buddy!
One War at a time!

70 years may be, just, a tick for you.
That is a long time for some of us.

Nowhere have I read that the fire set on May 3rd 2014 was set in an attempt to hurt or kill Jews.
That is not the point. At this point, the point is to stop the Violence.

To NOT have the other side Strike.
To stop our fellow man when he or she starts to tell me,
"A 25 year old man committing a crime today is justified by what a 55 year old man did 70 years ago."

That is a lot of numbers.
I am not very good at math.

I call BullShit. To do that degrades the Truth of Now.
Nothing your grandfather did makes it ok to harm you.

You can help me to make the argument.
It would still be wrong.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zcorp » Mon May 05, 2014 1:22 am UTC

EMTP wrote:I think you missed -- or are choosing to ignore -- the attempt to smear Ukrainians as the kind of people who "burn Jews alive." You seem to be deaf to the hypocrisy of defending Russia by citing the bad things Russia's enemies did whilst resisting Stalinism.

And again, his point has nothing to do with what Ukraine did in the past, it has to do with what he is accusing them of doing now.

I don't actually see how the (historically silly; their actual goal was to escape Stalin's genocidal regime) claim that "their goal was to integrate Ukraine into Europe" implies that the Ukrainians haven't had significant civic advancement. That seems to be your point; perhaps you would like to flesh it out a little.

Its not my point at all...it is his...I just bothered to actually read what was written, do I need to bold the important part of his statement for you again?

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Mon May 05, 2014 4:04 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Its not my point at all...it is his...I just bothered to actually read what was written, do I need to bold the important part of his statement for you again?


You can read into the statement whatever you like . . . I've responded to what was actually written, the literal English words. If you have a point, feel free to make it. Try to dial down the passive-aggressive hey-I'm-just-reporting, because that's nonsense.

Nowhere have I read that the fire set on May 3rd 2014 was set in an attempt to hurt or kill Jews.
That is not the point. At this point, the point is to stop the Violence.


I agree, the attempt to smear Ukrainian nationalists with what some Ukrainian nationalists did seventy years ago is both irrational and hilariously hypocritical, given the millions people murdered by Stalinist terror.

I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence." Unfortunately, Ukraine has been invaded and its territorial integrity violated by an aggressive neighbor with many other potential victims among the surrounding nations. The goal should be to effectively resist Russian aggression, maintain Ukraine's territorial integrity, and hold successful elections on May 25. If those things could be accomplished without any violence, that would be wonderful, but the unfortunately reality is that Russian and her Quislings have decided to use violence, both in Crimea and in the East, and there is no resisting them without the use of force.

Ukraine has wisely started to retake control of the East, and hopefully they will do so swiftly and successfully.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 06, 2014 2:24 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Its not my point at all...it is his...I just bothered to actually read what was written, do I need to bold the important part of his statement for you again?


You can read into the statement whatever you like . . . I've responded to what was actually written, the literal English words. If you have a point, feel free to make it.


Hmm...
his accusation is that Ukraine has not has significant civic advancement in the last 70 years. Not that the Ukraine did bad things 70 years ago.

And again, his point has nothing to do with what Ukraine did in the past, it has to do with what he is accusing them of doing now.

...

Try to dial down the passive-aggressive hey-I'm-just-reporting, because that's nonsense.

Nothing passive about it, I aggressively accused you of not reading. Which you continue to demonstrate in each post.


I agree, the attempt to smear Ukrainian nationalists with what some Ukrainian nationalists did seventy years ago is both irrational and hilariously hypocritical, given the millions people murdered by Stalinist terror.
Interesting that no one did that.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Tue May 06, 2014 2:47 am UTC

I'm surprised at the lack of loyalty the police in the Eastern cities. Most of the violence is always coupled with "police did not or could not intervene". No explanation, no further details, just police didn't do anything.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Tue May 06, 2014 5:58 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Its not my point at all...it is his...I just bothered to actually read what was written, do I need to bold the important part of his statement for you again?


You can read into the statement whatever you like . . . I've responded to what was actually written, the literal English words. If you have a point, feel free to make it. Try to dial down the passive-aggressive hey-I'm-just-reporting, because that's nonsense.

Nowhere have I read that the fire set on May 3rd 2014 was set in an attempt to hurt or kill Jews.
That is not the point. At this point, the point is to stop the Violence.


I agree, the attempt to smear Ukrainian nationalists with what some Ukrainian nationalists did seventy years ago is both irrational and hilariously hypocritical, given the millions people murdered by Stalinist terror.

I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence." Unfortunately, Ukraine has been invaded and its territorial integrity violated by an aggressive neighbor with many other potential victims among the surrounding nations. The goal should be to effectively resist Russian aggression, maintain Ukraine's territorial integrity, and hold successful elections on May 25. If those things could be accomplished without any violence, that would be wonderful, but the unfortunately reality is that Russian and her Quislings have decided to use violence, both in Crimea and in the East, and there is no resisting them without the use of force.

Ukraine has wisely started to retake control of the East, and hopefully they will do so swiftly and successfully.

[b]I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence."[/b]

You and I have a fundamental disagreement.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby BattleMoose » Tue May 06, 2014 6:03 am UTC

addams wrote:
[b]I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence."[/b]

You and I have a fundamental disagreement.


I am weighing in on this too.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 06, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
addams wrote:
[b]I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence."[/b]

You and I have a fundamental disagreement.


I am weighing in on this too.


*shrug* If you will do anything to stop violence, including giving concessions to the entity initiating violence, well, it seems wildly likely that you will only end the violence in the short term.

sardia wrote:I'm surprised at the lack of loyalty the police in the Eastern cities. Most of the violence is always coupled with "police did not or could not intervene". No explanation, no further details, just police didn't do anything.


They are not paid a ton, and probably don't want to hurl themselves into a quasi-military situation. Most police are far less militarized than in the US.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Tue May 06, 2014 1:57 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
addams wrote:
[b]I cannot agree, however, that the point or the primary goal is or should be "to stop the Violence."[/b]

You and I have a fundamental disagreement.


I am weighing in on this, too.

What side of the scales to you place your weight?

In the land of Fairy Tails:
Spoiler:
Justice stands blind.
She holds the scales.

Who places the weights onto the scales?
You and me? No Way!

In our imaginations we can.
What side of the scales are you placing your weight?

Not too wordy, please.
There can be no ambiguity.

The western fairy tail has Rules.
Like Calvin Ball we can change the Rules.

Playing the game correctly once, proves we understand the concept.
Then we can start messing around with Shades of Gray.

No! Shades of Gray is Not always about Sex. (jeeze)

I had a book. It's true. I can read.
Inside that book were pages with one or two sentences.

The author seemed to think those sentences stood alone.
One of them was as follows:

"Brother;
Once you have mastered the Form;
You are free to improvise."


What I think the two sides are:
Spoiler:
Peace is This Way---->
We Stop!

We take one small moment of Silence.
During that moment we All! Lock our hands behind our backs.

Jesus fucking Christ! Who Raised You??
Put your hands behind your back and Lock Them.

We are adults. We do not need handcuffs.
Do we??

If we need handcuffs, I don't want to play.

<-------The Other Side.
(Not easy for me to represent well.)

The paperwork is worth killing and dying for.
It's not Just paperwork! It's a Flag, too!

Resist becoming a Russian at all costs.
(nope. I don't understand it.)

Why?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Tue May 06, 2014 2:21 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
*shrug* If you will do anything to stop violence, including giving concessions to the entity initiating violence, well, it seems wildly likely that you will only end the violence in the short term.


Hey, we agree on something! Mark the date.

Zcorp wrote:Nothing passive about it, I aggressively accused you of not reading. Which you continue to demonstrate in each post.


Right, you made that accusation, but you're factually wrong about that, as I've shown.

What is passive-aggressive about your behavior is that you would clearly like to make the argument yourself, but you don't want to take responsibility for making the argument, so you continue to pretend it exists in another poster's argument, which was a lame attempt to vilify Ukrainians by alluding to massacres seventy years ago.


Interesting that no one did that.


Interesting that you're not just projecting your own thoughts and opinions into the statement, but are actively in denial about what it literally said:

Ukrainian nationalists are remarkably consistent in their actions. Seventy years ago they would burn Jews alive - just like now


Make your own argument. You aren't going to argue this one into sensibility.

So the Economist has a good, brief article on the strengths and weaknesses of the Russian economy, which is already being stressed by Putin's aggression in Ukraine ($60 billion dollars of capital flight, bonds downgraded to one notch above junk, growth forecast cut to 0.2%) but also has several important strengths (massive foreign exchanges reserves of $486 billion, two sovereign wealth funds totaling $175 billion). I thought it was a good analysis. Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Ukraine, and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Tue May 06, 2014 9:59 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:I thought it was a good analysis. Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Ukraine, and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


Is this a serious statement?
From an American?

Let's change the Name to protect the guilty?
Let's change the Name to reveal the guilty;
Shall we?

The US has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in The Middle East,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


That message has been trying to Get Out for years.
It may serve the people of the US and the world for the US to reexamine its place.

What is the Right and Proper 'Place' of the US in world affairs?
We seem to have some funny ideas about Leadership.

Some of those Ideas are Not so funny.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Vahir » Tue May 06, 2014 10:11 pm UTC

addams wrote:
EMTP wrote:I thought it was a good analysis. Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Ukraine, and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


Is this a serious statement?
From an American?

Let's change the Name to protect the guilty?
Let's change the Name to reveal the guilty;
Shall we?

The US has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in The Middle East,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


Fun game, let's play some more!


Nazi Germany has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in eastern europe,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.

Austria-Hungary has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in the Balkans,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.

Soviet Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Afghanistan,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


(My point being, replacing his words isn't very relevant)

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Tue May 06, 2014 10:46 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
addams wrote:
EMTP wrote:I thought it was a good analysis. Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Ukraine, and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


Is this a serious statement?
From an American?

Let's change the Name to protect the guilty?
Let's change the Name to reveal the guilty;
Shall we?

The US has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in The Middle East,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


Fun game, let's play some more!


Nazi Germany has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in eastern europe,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.

Austria-Hungary has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in the Balkans,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.

Soviet Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Afghanistan,
and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well.


(My point being, replacing his words isn't very relevant)

Yes, it is.
Do the sentences remain true?

Is Austria-Hungary meddling in the Balkans to the peril of the European Economy?
Link! Is that Old News? 70 year old news is old news.

Is Germany putting its own economy and the economy of the EU at risk by meddling in Eastern Europe?
Did you intend to write Ukraine? Or; Is Germany meddling in ways I do not know about?

Russia Was meddling in Afghanistan.
Things were not going well.
I was not there.

I was told.
The Russians were so unhappy.
It seemed no matter what they did, it was Wrong.

Afghanistan is a Tough Nut to Crack. This is not the first Generation to try.
Russia removed its military presence away from Afghanistan in early 1989.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
After nine years, it was basically over; I suppose.

The argument can be made that each one of those statements was true at one time.
I am making the argument the statement is Most True Now, when the US is the inserted noun.

For the Russians it has been 26 years.
There are both enlisted and officers in the Russian Army that had not been born yet 26 years ago.

They must learn the History of Afghanistan in little Army person school.
The US has been in Afghanistan for Thirteen Years.

Spoiler:
Hey! There is some Good News!
A war is often described as a Bad Marriage.

Bad Marriages have turning points.
The Thirteenth Year is one of those points.

Maybe, We, The People,
Maybe; We, The Children of God, each one of us.

Maybe; We, The People, will Get A Divorce!
(as a Gift from Above)

In some Marriages the Happiest Family Occasion, bar none, is the Divorce!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Zcorp
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zcorp » Wed May 07, 2014 3:27 am UTC

Vahir wrote:(My point being, replacing his words isn't very relevant)

This is the same problem that EMTP is having, you are both so completely missing the point, even when directly quoting and sometimes even expanding on the point that you don't get. Nothing to do but sit here baffled.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Vahir » Wed May 07, 2014 10:44 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Vahir wrote:(My point being, replacing his words isn't very relevant)

This is the same problem that EMTP is having, you are both so completely missing the point, even when directly quoting and sometimes even expanding on the point that you don't get. Nothing to do but sit here baffled.


The thing with arguments is that, from our point of view, you're the one consistently missing the point.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zamfir » Wed May 07, 2014 12:35 pm UTC


It's not kindergarten. It's the internet, full of reasonable adults. Or so I have heard.

Everybody, make your points, don't make it a personal shouting match.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed May 07, 2014 1:05 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
*shrug* If you will do anything to stop violence, including giving concessions to the entity initiating violence, well, it seems wildly likely that you will only end the violence in the short term.


Hey, we agree on something! Mark the date.


It's unusual, I grant. However, I think *most* in here take a dim view of Russia's aggressions, and agree that they have a responsibility in initiating hostilities. It isn't really the responsibility of the victim to avoid all potential harm to the agressor, who made the situation dangerous to begin with.

Any other conclusion results in some severely twisted logic and some perverse incentives.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zcorp » Thu May 08, 2014 1:59 am UTC

Vahir wrote:The thing with arguments is that, from our point of view, you're the one consistently missing the point.

Both sides are rarely right in when presenting opposing arguments.

EMTP made a statement:
"I thought it was a good analysis. Russia has a lot of resources, but they are burning through them for the sake of meddling in Ukraine, and this coincides with some serious structural problems in the economy as well."

addams then brought up two points, first the statement is accurate for just about any country invading another country, and as very little to do with analysis actually in the article. Heck most of it is about Russia economy being strong than the EU's, EMTP's statement doesn't even express understanding of that at all. Second, by bringing up the US and relation to the middle east addams draws a parallel between one of the primary exports of both the Ukraine and the Middle East, Oil. This access to fuel was brought up in the analysis in question as well.

You, by showing that EMTP's statement can be applied not only to the US (as demonstrated by addams) but also many other situations around the world is further weight toward his first point - yet call his point irrelevant. However, the second you seemed to have missed, granted it wasn't an easy one to understand if you didn't know about Ukraine's exports or didn't read the article being discussed.

Now what would be worth sacrificing some short term economic well-being for...

At least Russia seems to be interested in owning the aspects of the Ukraine and thus taking some responsibility for its well-being. Where America is notorious for creating disasters around the world, letting our businesses suck dry any resources there and leaving the clean up to the poor sods who were fortunate enough to live through America's destruction of their country.

Editted for clarity.
Last edited by Zcorp on Thu May 08, 2014 6:34 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Thu May 08, 2014 2:26 am UTC

Ukraine still has fossil fuels? I thought they mined out most of their reserves that are economical. Secondly, have you seen Russia's attempts at rebuilding? Not hypothetical intentions, I mean the countries Russia has invaded, and then the aid brought in. Because Russia has invaded several countries and spent money rebuilding them. There's been a few news report on them, check em out.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Thu May 08, 2014 4:34 am UTC

sardia wrote:Ukraine still has fossil fuels? I thought they mined out most of their reserves that are economical. Secondly, have you seen Russia's attempts at rebuilding? Not hypothetical intentions, I mean the countries Russia has invaded, and then the aid brought in. Because Russia has invaded several countries and spent money rebuilding them. There's been a few news report on them, check em out.

Nah-uh.
If you know where the articles are and understand them,
You bring them to us. We will then read or ignore them.

How do you expect us to find your point of view expressed on the internet.
The internet is huge. And; Russia's history is long.

The Ukrane is not my nation.
I am watching from far away.

That place has seen War.
That place has recovered from War.

The individual people are Not more resilient than any other people.
They may have cultural assists to bring to Peace as a Choice.

I know the way to Peace, after an event like The Fire takes purposeful action.
The people of South Africa and Rwanda had huge personal and social challenges.

Those challenges were met by Truth and Reconciliation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_ ... uth_Africa)

The way to War is easy.
Any idiot can do it.

The way to Peace requires a great deal more of both the individual and the society.
Peace is not so hard, once ya' get the hang of it.

We seem to forget how delicate Peace is.
Why is Peace so darned delicate?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Thu May 08, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Heck most of it is about Russia economy being strong than the EU's, EMTP's statement doesn't even express understanding of that at all.


It doesn't happen to be true that Russia's economy is stronger than the EU's. And the article does not say that. And even if it did, I'm certainly not under any obligation to summarize the content of a link point by point. The link is there so that you can read the article and draw your own conclusions.

Second, by bringing up the US and relation to the middle east addams draws a parallel between one of the primary exports of both the Ukraine and the Middle East, Oil. This access to fuel was brought up in the analysis in question as well.

You, by showing that EMTP's statement can be applied not only to the US (as demonstrated by addams) but also many other situations around the world is further weight toward his first point - yet call his point irrelevant. However, the second you seemed to have missed, granted it wasn't an easy one to understand if you didn't know about Ukraine's exports or didn't read the article being discussed.


Speaking of not easy to understand, would you like to simplify and clarify your point here? It reminds of a line from Cervantes:
The poor fellow used to line awake nights in an effort to disentangle the meaning and make sense of passages such as these, although Aristotle himself would not have been able to understand them, even if he had been resurrected for that sole purpose.


So I looked at whole word-substitution thing, and I'm underwhelmed. First of all, not every post on here is an argument. I thought that article was interesting and contributed to our understanding, and I posted a link to it. Some people seem to have taken from it that I'm arguing that Russia is uniquely bad or foolish or weak. No. They have strengths and weaknesses, obviously, and no one is arguing what they are doing is without precedent in human history.

The comparison of Russia's actions promoting violence in Ukraine with America's invasion of Iraq might be an interesting thesis topic, but there's no one to one relationship. The situations are very different. Economically, the United States is vastly stronger than Russia. I love Russia; I lived in Russia for two and a half years. I lost my virginity in Russia, and some of my very best friends are Russian and Ukrainian. So I have no desire to slight them or diminish their accomplishments. But the economy of Russia is small, technologically backward, and hugely inefficient. They are enjoying a huge fossil fuel windfall right now, and more power to them, but they have a far less robust market economy to tolerate their own ego-driven, expensive, murderous, useless war.

There is also the critical difference that Iraq is far, far away. Making a mess of Iraq was an awful, unforgivable thing to do, but beyond the direct military costs, the expenses caring for veterans, and a big heap of our credibility, we could basically leave Iraq and be done with it to a great extent. Whereas Russia is sparking chaos and violence right on their own doorstep which a much larger country* that is full of Russian speakers with a strong partisan tradition who doubtless still remember how to navigate the road to Moscow.

This may indeed not be any more morally bankrupt than our invasion of Iraq, but strategically, it's far more stupid.

---------------------------
Larger than Iraq, both in area and in population; not larger than Russia, obviously.
Last edited by EMTP on Thu May 08, 2014 5:46 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"


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