Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby EMTP » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:06 am UTC

The Russian invasion appears to be escalating:

(Reuters) - EU officials proposed sanctions on Tuesday to starve Russian firms of cash as punishment for Moscow's role in Ukraine, where rebels said they were storming Donetsk airport, potentially their biggest prize since turning the war's tide last week.

Western countries accuse Moscow of sending armored columns of troops into Ukraine, where the momentum in a five-month war shifted last week decisively in favor of pro-Russian rebels, who are now advancing on a new front towards a major port.

Russia denies its troops are involved in fighting on the ground, in the face of what Western countries and Ukraine say is overwhelming evidence.


This war seems as though it may continue for a long time to come.

sardia wrote:I'm not sure if a repeat of the civil war would fly in today international norms. We did done awful shit to during that war that rivals what Putin did to the Chechens.


Hmmmm, curious what you're thinking of. Southern death in the Civil Wars are estimated at between 100,000 and 250,000, in a population of nine million. Civilian deaths in the two Chechen conflicts are estimated at 50,000 to 300,000, out of a population of 1.2 million. So in terms of the killing of civilians, Russia's wars in Chechnya were far worse.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:30 am UTC

Is this a newer escalation beyond the original russian incursion for a land link to Crimea? I'm trying to figure out if you are referring to something new, like the resurgence of the rebels beyond what Russian troops provide.


OT, I was referring to Sherman's march to the sea, and the concept of total war. But yea, good point as to why Chechnya's war was worse.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Soteria » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:57 am UTC

sardia wrote:Is this a newer escalation beyond the original russian incursion for a land link to Crimea? I'm trying to figure out if you are referring to something new, like the resurgence of the rebels beyond what Russian troops provide.


OT, I was referring to Sherman's march to the sea, and the concept of total war. But yea, good point as to why Chechnya's war was worse.


IIRC that march was mostly bloodless, though he certainly destroyed a lot of property. I don't doubt people might have died as a result of farmland/homes being destroyed though.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:25 am UTC

Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Dantez wrote: I'm glad they are standing up for the law and the democratic society...


By kicking out the elected government in a foreign-backed coup, and then shelling towns that want to secede?

Some democracy.


You are aware that the government of Ukraine is democratically elected, right? And that the secession movement is obviously foreign backed? And that they've given the rebels every opportunity to stand down before now? Governments have used extreme force against rebels in the past and been vindicated by history. See: American Civil War.


The previous Ukrainian government was also democratically elected and the movement to overthrow it received quite overt political support from the West, whether they received other support as well I don't know, and I'm not sure if anyone has every investigated that. The West hasn't exactly been shy about arming rebel groups in the recent decade, and the principle that a people has the right to it's own country is also relatively well established (see: South-Sudan, Kosovo, Timor Leste).

Of course I doubt either Russia or the West care over much about the local population. Instead this is a geopolitical game to see how close to Russia's borders the West's sphere of influence will be drawn.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby leady » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:10 am UTC

One thing I couldn't help but notice whilst over there is that this current crisis is definitely generating a lot of Ukrainian patriotism / nationalism that I've not really noticed before. As an example Odessa is a largely Russian speaking area that previously has never really worried about being part of Ukraine (I think as the countries major port city its had special economic status ), but now I get the impression that the majority see themselves far more strongly as ukrainian (lots more flags etc).

As an amusing aside I did try to explain the concept of UK patriotism being generally "impolite" with complete failure - but I think thats a near unique British thing

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Vahir » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:50 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Dantez wrote: I'm glad they are standing up for the law and the democratic society...


By kicking out the elected government in a foreign-backed coup, and then shelling towns that want to secede?

Some democracy.


You are aware that the government of Ukraine is democratically elected, right? And that the secession movement is obviously foreign backed? And that they've given the rebels every opportunity to stand down before now? Governments have used extreme force against rebels in the past and been vindicated by history. See: American Civil War.


The previous Ukrainian government was also democratically elected and the movement to overthrow it received quite overt political support from the West, whether they received other support as well I don't know, and I'm not sure if anyone has every investigated that. The West hasn't exactly been shy about arming rebel groups in the recent decade, and the principle that a people has the right to it's own country is also relatively well established (see: South-Sudan, Kosovo, Timor Leste).


I happen to agree that overthrowing the legitimate government was the wrong way to go about reforming the system. Nevertheless, that government is gone, and the current one is just as legitimate as its predecessor. As they say, it's no use crying over broken eggs.

What is a "people"? Are the french a people? What about the bavarians? If both of those are true, why aren't new yorkers a people? Or Manhattan? Drawing an arbitrary line between what is and isn't a nation is ridiculous. We accept the formation of a new country when its inhabitants were oppressed by their previous rulers, when realpolitik demands it, or when it's already a fait accomplis. Not out of some principle that some arbitrary designation of humans "deserve" independent governance.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:40 am UTC

A people or nation (A nation is a large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history) at least for this context should be or at least I regard as self identification. If a group of people say that they are a nation, then they are.

And self-determination is a human right, this is well recognised.

However, an oppressed nation clamouring for self-determination no matter how worthy is insufficient in achieving a new country. Almost universally new countries are formed through a feat of arms and violence.

If a people aren't strong enough to force the issue and form their own country or have strong allies to do it for them, its not really a thing that's going to happen.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:44 am UTC

Vahir wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Dantez wrote: I'm glad they are standing up for the law and the democratic society...


By kicking out the elected government in a foreign-backed coup, and then shelling towns that want to secede?

Some democracy.


You are aware that the government of Ukraine is democratically elected, right? And that the secession movement is obviously foreign backed? And that they've given the rebels every opportunity to stand down before now? Governments have used extreme force against rebels in the past and been vindicated by history. See: American Civil War.


The previous Ukrainian government was also democratically elected and the movement to overthrow it received quite overt political support from the West, whether they received other support as well I don't know, and I'm not sure if anyone has every investigated that. The West hasn't exactly been shy about arming rebel groups in the recent decade, and the principle that a people has the right to it's own country is also relatively well established (see: South-Sudan, Kosovo, Timor Leste).


I happen to agree that overthrowing the legitimate government was the wrong way to go about reforming the system. Nevertheless, that government is gone, and the current one is just as legitimate as its predecessor. As they say, it's no use crying over broken eggs.

What is a "people"? Are the french a people? What about the bavarians? If both of those are true, why aren't new yorkers a people? Or Manhattan? Drawing an arbitrary line between what is and isn't a nation is ridiculous. We accept the formation of a new country when its inhabitants were oppressed by their previous rulers, when realpolitik demands it, or when it's already a fait accomplis. Not out of some principle that some arbitrary designation of humans "deserve" independent governance.


My main point was that it's rather hypocritical to complain about Russia meddling in Ukraine's internal politics, when the West was just as much involved in supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine. A failure to acknowledge that is going to rather colour our view of the situation.

Regarding accepting the formation of a new country, I'd say we mainly accept it when we don't like the people in charge of the old country and we use some pretty language about the right of self-determination to justify it.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:00 am UTC

Having *a* nation-state is a human right, having *your own* nation-state is not.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:34 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Having *a* nation-state is a human right, having *your own* nation-state is not.


I don't know that having one is a human right, even. Desirable for the protection of rights, sure, but I don't think that the current system of nations is some inherent right.

After all, if someone had the usual assortment of other rights and was comfortable without happening to be part of a nation, it would be unusual, but I do not think such a person is being deprived.

Self determination is somewhat different than a right to a nation-state.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:37 pm UTC

I meant "is" as in "is part of the UDHR".

UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS Article 15 wrote:1. Everyone has the right to a nationality.
2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Chen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:11 pm UTC

How can there possibly be a right to change their nationality. If the person doesn't like the nationality they are born with, some other country MUST let them change it? That's kinda odd. Maybe a right to renounce your nationality, but even then it puts the onus on other countries to accept this person at some point else they run afoul of the first clause whereby everyone has a right to a nationality.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:35 pm UTC

Article 14 describes the right to seek Asylum, but I'm thinking it refers more to a state refusing to recognize a change in nationality.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:59 pm UTC

Chen wrote:How can there possibly be a right to change their nationality. If the person doesn't like the nationality they are born with, some other country MUST let them change it? That's kinda odd. Maybe a right to renounce your nationality, but even then it puts the onus on other countries to accept this person at some point else they run afoul of the first clause whereby everyone has a right to a nationality.

I imagine it's more for the original country to refuse rather.

Eg, I have multiple nationalities due to parents from different countries. I might want to get rid of one of them as it has stupid tax laws about filing tax returns even when you've never lived there (*cough* US *cough*). The US shouldn't be able to deny me that right.

The US does deny that right to children though, even if they're taxing the child for income they're getting from benefits in another country.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:17 pm UTC

The point is that people can't be arbitrarily denied the right to change their nationality. That doesn't mean you can change it for no reason, it just means that the rules on changing your nationality have to be reasonable and consistently applied (likewise with losing one's nationality).
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Zamfir » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Getting off-topic, no?

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:20 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Vahir wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Dantez wrote: I'm glad they are standing up for the law and the democratic society...


By kicking out the elected government in a foreign-backed coup, and then shelling towns that want to secede?

Some democracy.


You are aware that the government of Ukraine is democratically elected, right? And that the secession movement is obviously foreign backed? And that they've given the rebels every opportunity to stand down before now? Governments have used extreme force against rebels in the past and been vindicated by history. See: American Civil War.


The previous Ukrainian government was also democratically elected and the movement to overthrow it received quite overt political support from the West, whether they received other support as well I don't know, and I'm not sure if anyone has every investigated that. The West hasn't exactly been shy about arming rebel groups in the recent decade, and the principle that a people has the right to it's own country is also relatively well established (see: South-Sudan, Kosovo, Timor Leste).


I happen to agree that overthrowing the legitimate government was the wrong way to go about reforming the system. Nevertheless, that government is gone, and the current one is just as legitimate as its predecessor. As they say, it's no use crying over broken eggs.

What is a "people"? Are the french a people? What about the bavarians? If both of those are true, why aren't new yorkers a people? Or Manhattan? Drawing an arbitrary line between what is and isn't a nation is ridiculous. We accept the formation of a new country when its inhabitants were oppressed by their previous rulers, when realpolitik demands it, or when it's already a fait accomplis. Not out of some principle that some arbitrary designation of humans "deserve" independent governance.


My main point was that it's rather hypocritical to complain about Russia meddling in Ukraine's internal politics, when the West was just as much involved in supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine. A failure to acknowledge that is going to rather colour our view of the situation.

Regarding accepting the formation of a new country, I'd say we mainly accept it when we don't like the people in charge of the old country and we use some pretty language about the right of self-determination to justify it.
did you just equate western cheerleading with Russia's military invasion of Ukraine?

Sorry for the quote. But it'll get people back on topic.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:36 pm UTC

So France suspended delivery of warships, losing out on a billion euros. So even the French are agreeing with the rest of NATO.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Tirian » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:20 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:What is a "people"? Are the french a people? What about the bavarians? If both of those are true, why aren't new yorkers a people? Or Manhattan? Drawing an arbitrary line between what is and isn't a nation is ridiculous. We accept the formation of a new country when its inhabitants were oppressed by their previous rulers, when realpolitik demands it, or when it's already a fait accomplis. Not out of some principle that some arbitrary designation of humans "deserve" independent governance.


I think this is a conversation that we should have at the global level. Right now, we have one set of rules for the Eastern Ukranians, another for the South Sudanese, another for the Scots, another for the Tibetans, another for the Kurds, and who knows where the Californians and the Texans fit in to all of it.

But I don't really believe that boundary lines drawn many generations ago are necessarily appropriate political divisions for modern times, and it might be that having a representative (or at least an appropriate responsive) government should be considered a fundamental human right.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So France suspended delivery of warships, losing out on a billion euros. So even the French are agreeing with the rest of NATO.

While the French warships deal looked bad, it's nothing compared to the connections Britain and Germany have with Russians.

I wonder how the ceasefire is going to shake out in the end. Will it be temporary in order to regroup and fight some more or will it be a surrender of major Ukrainian concessions?

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:33 am UTC

sardia wrote:
did you just equate western cheerleading with Russia's military invasion of Ukraine?

Sorry for the quote. But it'll get people back on topic.


Libya and Syria show that the West is perfectly fine going beyond cheerleading to arms deals and even military intervention if peaceful protests aren't sufficient to overthrow a government.

In Libya and Syria the West claimed they were / are protecting people justifiably seeking to overthrow an oppressive government. Russia on the other hand is claiming it's supporting a legitimate government's legitimate use of force to restore law and order and keep it's territory intact.

In Ukraine Russia is claiming it is protecting people justifiably seeking to overthrow / gain independence from an oppressive government. The West on the other hand is claiming it's supporting a legitimate government's legitimate use of force to restore law and order and keep it's territory intact.

We can argue at length about whose claims are true in each case. I strongly suspect your conclusions will correlate quite well with who's media you happen to follow. I personally don't have much of a clue. Both Russia and the West are meddling in Ukraine's internal politics and both are most likely using it as a proxy to deal with other issues.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:43 pm UTC

Interesting, are you also unsure of global warming because it heavily correlAtes to how much consevative news you follow?

Please don't brag about how ignorant you are and then call us sheeple for not questioning our media sources. The fact that you lump the west together into a homogeneous group makes me question what media you are reading that calls itself journalists.

Edit. How long is the ceasefire in Ukraine suppose to last? Is it until negotiations breakdown?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Diadem » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:11 pm UTC

Yeah, I am completely confused when people bring up the "Why are we mindlessly believing the accusations against Russia" angle. Because it is brought up so often it's probably talked about more than the actual crisis itself. Even more confusing is that this mostly seems to come from the left. I can't figure out why so many left-wing people are so charmed with Putin. He's not only a dictator, he is a right-wing one. He should be their instinctive enemy.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby leady » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

global warming model acceptance is absolutely correlated to political viewpoint

The US and EU did more than cheer lead from the sides - they essentially funded the revolution which then succeeded as the military and police switched sides. There is a difference of degree in this and providing arms to separatists to hold a region, but they are both enacting change through the funding of violence. The difference in western and eastern views I think is that we generally see the arms length nature of our interventions as benign, whereas they see no practical difference in the two scenarios. I tend to lean east on this one...

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:11 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Yeah, I am completely confused when people bring up the "Why are we mindlessly believing the accusations against Russia" angle. Because it is brought up so often it's probably talked about more than the actual crisis itself. Even more confusing is that this mostly seems to come from the left. I can't figure out why so many left-wing people are so charmed with Putin. He's not only a dictator, he is a right-wing one. He should be their instinctive enemy.


Right, left, whatever. He's an authoritarian sort, who isn't terribly friendly to rights or freedoms even for his own people. I dare say either side of our political spectrum would not welcome policies of Putin's sort here. Nor have the Russian claims been particularly credible. Bodies already on an aircraft as part of a conspiracy? Those soldiers are all just volunteers that you have no control over? Sure, whatever. Just because both sides make claims does not make both sides equal.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Soteria » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:32 pm UTC

Well, in some cases "western" reporting can certainly seem pretty unified. I remember during the whole fuss about Georgia, most of the focus seemed to be on the evil things Russia was doing and how Georgia is a US ally being bullied by their larger neighbor. You never heard from *any* western news outlet in my memory that Georgia was in turn bullying their smaller neighbor/part of Georgian territory, Abkhazia.

Part of the problem in that case was that the situation is and was pretty complicated, and it's a lot easier for reporters to just choose a good guy and a bad guy and stick with that narrative. Things that are not part of the narrative are ignored.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Yeah, I am completely confused when people bring up the "Why are we mindlessly believing the accusations against Russia" angle. Because it is brought up so often it's probably talked about more than the actual crisis itself. Even more confusing is that this mostly seems to come from the left. I can't figure out why so many left-wing people are so charmed with Putin. He's not only a dictator, he is a right-wing one. He should be their instinctive enemy.


1). Moonbats. They don't support anything, they just oppose the "West" with a passion and use any argument they can for that purpose. West ignores foreign civil war, West is uncaring assholes. West invaded to end civil war, West is imperializing. West supports one side, the other side are the REAL good guys. West sends aid to everyone, West is prolonging the conflict by undercutting local producers. West imposes sanctions, West is causing mass suffering.

2). Egos. Same reason for conspiracy theories; people need to feel smart and conspiracy theories let them "know" more without having to do the arduous task of "learning". So knowing that Putin is the "real" good guy makes them "smarter" than you sheeple.

Other reasons of course.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Mambrino » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:02 am UTC

leady wrote:global warming model acceptance is absolutely correlated to political viewpoint

The US and EU did more than cheer lead from the sides - they essentially funded the revolution which then succeeded as the military and police switched sides. There is a difference of degree in this and providing arms to separatists to hold a region, but they are both enacting change through the funding of violence. The difference in western and eastern views I think is that we generally see the arms length nature of our interventions as benign, whereas they see no practical difference in the two scenarios. I tend to lean east on this one...


Well, in this case it seems that lately Putin may have been sending actual soldiers, maybe even regular conscripts, to fight and die in Ukraine. If that's true, I believe it would be quite much of difference of degree compared to e.g. providing arms that they were doing earlier. Using your military forces to invade a neighboring country, that's the quite ultimate way of meddling in the said country's internal politics.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby bigglesworth » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:17 am UTC

And lying about it.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:10 pm UTC

Mambrino wrote:
leady wrote:global warming model acceptance is absolutely correlated to political viewpoint

The US and EU did more than cheer lead from the sides - they essentially funded the revolution which then succeeded as the military and police switched sides. There is a difference of degree in this and providing arms to separatists to hold a region, but they are both enacting change through the funding of violence. The difference in western and eastern views I think is that we generally see the arms length nature of our interventions as benign, whereas they see no practical difference in the two scenarios. I tend to lean east on this one...


Well, in this case it seems that lately Putin may have been sending actual soldiers, maybe even regular conscripts, to fight and die in Ukraine. If that's true, I believe it would be quite much of difference of degree compared to e.g. providing arms that they were doing earlier. Using your military forces to invade a neighboring country, that's the quite ultimate way of meddling in the said country's internal politics.

That is the crux of the question for people like johnny_7713. Is this is the same level of intervention as various western backed actions. If Crimea and subsequently Ukrainian invasion is ok, then that bodes poorly for Japan/China, Pakistan/India, and Israel/Palestine. Not to mention what it means for US/World.

The corollary to this could be Ormurin arguing that this is all bad, we're just on the receiving end of this. Doesn't mean we should let Ukraine slide, it just means the West has done awful shit in the past, and probably now.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:58 pm UTC

What evidence is there that the US/EU funded the revolution?

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:02 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Yeah, I am completely confused when people bring up the "Why are we mindlessly believing the accusations against Russia" angle. Because it is brought up so often it's probably talked about more than the actual crisis itself. Even more confusing is that this mostly seems to come from the left. I can't figure out why so many left-wing people are so charmed with Putin. He's not only a dictator, he is a right-wing one. He should be their instinctive enemy.


You can simultaneously dislike Putin's policies and point out that the narrative used to denounce certain Russian actions in Ukraine is highly hypocritical. I don't think Russia should be meddling in Ukraine, but I don't think the EU/US should be either. Russia has gone a lot further than the EU/US in this case, and maybe sanctions or even further actions are the best response, but let's not pretend Russia is the only one playing the Game of Thrones here.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby sardia » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:40 pm UTC

Johnny, the west is only hypocritical if neither of the two are true.
1 this isn't the same as how the west intervenes. r "Russia and the eu both played their games in Ukraine. But Russia lost. So Russia decides to play a different game called lets declare war and lie about it. "
Or
2 this is my shit, and I'm mad that you're trying to take what's mine.

My questions for you is How should hipocrisy play in foreign policy?
And if this is a continuation of the same game, then what is off limits? Nukes?
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby Soteria » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:01 pm UTC

I don't think you can "declare war and lie about it." Declaring war by definition is a public statement of intent. And historically we (the west) definitely have intervened by sending in troops to fight for whichever side we decide to back. You'd have to have a pretty short-term memory to claim that just because we didn't send troops into Syria that we normally don't.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Johnny, the west is only hypocritical if neither of the two are true.
1 this isn't the same as how the west intervenes. r "Russia and the eu both played their games in Ukraine. But Russia lost. So Russia decides to play a different game called lets declare war and lie about it. "
Or
2 this is my shit, and I'm mad that you're trying to take what's mine.

My questions for you is How should hipocrisy play in foreign policy?
And if this is a continuation of the same game, then what is off limits? Nukes?
Posted from iphone.


The EU/US/NATO (in varying compositions) have militarily intervened on behalf of Kosovo and the Libyan rebels, and might still in Ukraine, they also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. It would seem they are not particularly shy about using military force, albeit they are more open about it.

To answer your questions: If you want to go around claiming the moral high ground as part of your foreign policy then you should act in accordance with those principles. You don't get to tell someone off for supplying arms to rebels when you were doing the same thing only shortly before, even if it was in a different country.
Nukes are most definitely off limits, but if it were up to me so would be most other portions of the game, including all other kinds of military intervention and supplying arms.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

Do you think of the Ukraine like it is Texas?
For Russia to seize and administer the Ukraine is like Mexico taking Texas?

Well...OK.
It's like Texas, if Texas had been Mexico in the 1990's.

For some if not Most people in the Ukraine,
The Administration from Moscow is a Romantic Notion.

And; Now that The Family is getting back on their feet It is a joyful reunion.
Except, there are always Kill Joys.

Kill Joys that want What?
Some kind of Ukraine Unity?

Like the White guys in Texas.
You can have Freedom and Unity as long as you Speak English and Work Harder.

Besides; How can so many Americans be bothered with Problems half way around The World.
The Americans have problems of their own.

What??
Is that a Secret, too?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:17 am UTC

You know what's be nice about all these claims of the revolt being western funded? Some proof.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You know what's be nice about all these claims of the revolt being western funded? Some proof.

We seem to have plenty of PROOF, the US has Problems the rest of the world does not want.
If we are so darned knowledgeable and wonderful, Why The Hell are things so Fucked Up at Home?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:40 am UTC

Once again, proof please. A link to a reputable news source or something.

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Re: Ukraine Crisis [New Title]

Postby addams » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:09 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Once again, proof please. A link to a reputable news source or something.

The Police Misbehavior Thread might have a link you like.
The War on Drugs Thread might have a link you like.

The Justice System and the Prison System seem to be in such bad shape;
If they were Horses, we'd shoot them.

Again;
We can notice the Problems of our Brothers and Sisters.
We can talk about their Problems.

We Should Do Something about our Own Problems!

I do not recommend an Isolationist Policy.
Not at all.

I would recommend the US works with Other Nations toward Shared Goals.
The US may not have a Central LeaderShip Role. So, fucking What??

If The World wants to see the US at Peace,
I am willing to Back the World on That One!

It would be a long and difficult journey,
From where we are to Peace.

We don't like each other.
Such is the Foundation Stone of any good Civil War.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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