The Darker Side of the News

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sardia
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:39 pm UTC

Do you have any citations that are more accurate?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:38 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:White, and in "this part of America" is a sub-group of white.
No, it's not. It's a common group plus the context in which racism can (or cannot) occur. IE, like how you said that Jewish people might experience racism or might not, depending on context (such as where they currently are). Racism doesn't stop to consult geneology charts or subgroups; racism is contextual.

No one about to commit a racism is going to suddenly stop and say, "Wait, which PART of America are you from?". Acting like that's a label (and not the context in which that label is interpreted in) makes no sense.

The rest of your post is just pedantry.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:17 pm UTC

I had some difficulty finding a report that frames it the issue in exactly the same manner, but take a look at this report. Specifically look at page 40 (page 47 acording to adobe)
white males and females
received sentences that decreased in
severity. ...... the changes appear large: The simple average change over the 14 strata is -0.22 standardized units, which is significant at p < 0.001
and on the next page.
The simple average across the eight contrasts showed that at the end of 2012, blacks received sentences that were 0.173 standardized units higher than their white counterparts, a difference that was statistically significant at p < 0.01.
So the difference from sentencing is noticeable, but not huge, but is definitely there. This very commonly happens with unintentional discrimination, as the discriminators need to fail to see the pattern and small samples can't really show the pattern.

As an aside, if this seems surprisingly low, remember this is at only one stage of the criminal justice process. Conviction has another bias. Ability to secure private council is another, decision to prosecute is another, et cetra, et cetra.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:29 pm UTC

Can we please agree on the following so we can get back to the discussion?

1) Hippo is using hyperbole
2) Black people are still far more likely to receive worse sentences than white people
3) From 2, severe racism still exists in the US justice system

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:44 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:White, and in "this part of America" is a sub-group of white.
No, it's not. It's a common group plus the context in which racism can (or cannot) occur. IE, like how you said that Jewish people might experience racism or might not, depending on context (such as where they currently are). Racism doesn't stop to consult geneology charts or subgroups; racism is contextual.

No one about to commit a racism is going to suddenly stop and say, "Wait, which PART of America are you from?". Acting like that's a label (and not the context in which that label is interpreted in) makes no sense.
Also no Israeli artilleryman about to shell a mosque or school in Bradford, England, is going to suddenly stop and say: "Wait. Which PART of the Gaza Strip am I bombarding?" Likewise, no suicide bomber walking along a road in Cairo is about to walk into a Catholic church in Hanoi. No nazi in Charlottesville is about to drive a car into a group of human rights advocates in Nyahururu. No small-scale entrepreneur in Marrakech is about to follow someone across Red Square in Moscow trying to persuade tourists they really need to pose with his snakes. No Saudi pilot about to drop a bomb on a hospital in Australia is going to stop and say: "Wait. Which PART of Sana'a is Melbourne?"

That doesn't mean schools don't get attacked, churches don't get attacked, protestors demonstrating for equal rights don't get attacked, white people don't get pestered by poor people who've somehow formed the impression that $100/hr is a pretty normal rate of pay in white countries ... (No, I'm not exaggerating. I did the maths for the amount of money some guy wanted for the 5 minutes of his time I'd taken up by not doing a good enough job of telling him to get lost, and that was how much he wanted. He was hefting a cobblestone to throw at my head before it crossed his mind that I'd probably side-step it and beat him to death if he didn't put it down and fuck off.) ... or that hospitals don't get attacked.

In the context of responses to some dickhead saying ... what did he say? It's been a while.

Oh, yeah. In the context of responses to some dickhead saying that The Jews are redefined as a privileged group just to make the meaniehead's thing about discrimination and life outcomes seem true, the distinction between whatever skin tone and creed get to be in charge of everything in Israel with the aid of annual compulsory donations from the entire population of the USA, Jews in the USA and other friendly(ish) countries and Jews facing discrimination in other places and/or at other times does matter.

Imagine that Canada really does impose a rule that at least 90% of the board of directors of every company must be black and at least 90% of them must be female. You know some Faux Gnus nutcase wants us to believe they already did decree that. Would that mean there was no discrimination against black people or against women? Not in Saudi Arabia or Missouri, it wouldn't.

Speaking of Saudi Arabia, cor blimey are Sunni Muslim Arabs a privileged class or what? They hold *all* the ... what? Iran? Israel? India? Oh ... well, no, they're not such a privileged class there, no.

So, yes, I do think for discussion of who's in a privileged group of some sort and who's a victim of discrimination, we do need to look at groups like "white working poor in Mississippi" and "white middle class in New England," not just White People as a single 100-megatonne amoeba.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:33 am UTC

To be fair: thinking on this more and the manner in which I phrased it, I believe (as much as I dislike admitting it) that Quizatzhaderac was correct. I was misunderstanding Edgar's use of the word 'group'.

I intended 'in this part of America' to be contextualizing the group ('white people') as an example of a group who can't experience racism. But I can, in fact, experience racism -- if I go find a place where white people are marginalized and oppressed (I might have to search far and wide to find such a place, but such a place can exist -- at least in theory). In that sense, "It is impossible for some groups to experience oppression" is, in fact, false. Because oppression and racism are always contextual.

(Sidenote: It is impossible for me to experience the same racism that a black person growing up in America experienced. Because even if I find a Bizarro America where white people are oppressed and black people are in charge, I'm only going to experience that racism now. I still have spent my entire life not experiencing racism. But that's neither here nor there.)

It's still trivially true that I, as a white dude, will not experience racism in America. But it's possibly a (small, but still potentially important) misstep to say that it is therefore literally impossible for me to experience racism. It's just impossible within this context.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:40 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:39 am UTC

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/20/us/youtu ... index.html

The "Fantastic Adventures" YouTube channel has racked up more than 250 million views with its adorable cast of seven adopted children, silly topics and charmingly low-fi visual effects.

Behind the scenes, though, the children told a different story. A welfare check last week found the home was a den of abuse in which their mother would withhold food and water for days at a time, pepper-spray them, force them to take ice baths and lock them in a barren closet, according to a statement of probable cause in Maricopa, Arizona.

"They stated they are disciplined in the manners above if they do not recall their lines or do not participate (in the videos) as they are directed to," the probable cause statement said.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Plasma_Wolf » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:53 am UTC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47648086

Dutch right wing populists make enormous gains the elections that determine our Senate. This result is achieved in the same way that Brexit and Trump happened: magnify issues that make people unhappy, ignore facts, complain about journalists and cast doubt on facts themselves.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:02 am UTC

Anyone else here play stellaris? In stellaris, the xenophobes are the only ethos that gets two factions in your civilization. The Dutch now have two xenophobic parties. I want to make a joke about this...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:03 pm UTC

republicans are fascist racists who despise democracy, so it's 100% predictable but still vile that since florida finally got rid of (some) felony disenfranchisement, they respond by working to pass a measure that would block people from voting if they have unpaid court fees.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:11 pm UTC

Ok, that's definitely beyond bullshit. Duck Florida.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:33 am UTC

This had to do with the implementation text of the amendment, to wit:

Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, any disqualification from voting arising from a felony conviction shall terminate and voting rights shall be restored upon completion of all terms of sentence including parole or probation.


The question is: what is included in the terms of sentence? Does it include fees? Fines? Probation? Sexual offender designation? Time in a 12-step program? An outstanding restraining order that may well be permanent?

Well, guess what? When an amendment is overly complex, or is unclear, the politicians wring their hands over the freaking details, especially when there is a motive. (Since felons as a class tend to be the type of people who would vote for a Democrat, the Republican legislature is looking for loopholes.)

This amendment should have said simply: "rights are restored on completion of any incarceration or probation." Hand-wringing would be hard.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:28 am UTC

Honestly, the amendment should have just read "rights are restored to all felons regardless of the severity of their crime".

The notion that we're stripping away the right to vote from citizens who are subject to our laws -- and have a tremendous interest regarding the function of our penal system -- is deranged.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:40 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The notion that we're stripping away the right to vote from citizens who are subject to our laws -- and have a tremendous interest regarding the function of our penal system -- is deranged.

(Emphasis mine)
Agreed. I also seem to recall that that very grievance precipitated a certain revolution a few hundred years ago...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yablo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:14 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Honestly, the amendment should have just read "rights are restored to all felons regardless of the severity of their crime".

That would have been clear and virtually unmistakable in its intent. We don't have nearly enough of that in our federal and state legal systems.

Also, what is the point of releasing a prisoner back into society if he or she isn't to be considered a member of society with all that comes with the status? If a person is released after serving the full sentence, or for good behavior, that person should be entitled to all the rights and benefits of citizenship. If they don't have that promise at the end of the tunnel, there is far less incentive to rehabilitate, and in many cases, there might be incentive to not rehabilitate simply out of spite.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:12 am UTC

I have to wonder how Israel can claim innocence when they do stuff like this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47399541

A commission of inquiry investigated the killing of 189 Palestinians between 30 March and 31 December 2018.

It found reasonable grounds to believe that Israeli snipers shot at children, medics and journalists, even though they were clearly recognisable as such.

Israel's acting foreign minister said it rejected the findings outright.

"The Human Rights Council's Theatre of the Absurd has once again produced a report that is hostile, mendacious and biased against Israel," Israel Katz said.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:15 pm UTC

It literally says so right there - they claim "fake news".

But it doesn't really matter. The Israeli right wants there to be threats and wars, it keeps them in power. It wants these reports to come out so they can say Israel is persecuted and being treated unfairly. It wants to continue propagating isolationism and fear. In the meantime, 60-feet tall signs of Netanyahu shaking hands with Trump (Netanyahu photoshopped to be just a little bit taller than he actually is) adorn the highways of Tel Aviv.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:40 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:It literally says so right there - they claim "fake news".

But it doesn't really matter. The Israeli right wants there to be threats and wars, it keeps them in power. It wants these reports to come out so they can say Israel is persecuted and being treated unfairly. It wants to continue propagating isolationism and fear. In the meantime, 60-feet tall signs of Netanyahu shaking hands with Trump (Netanyahu photoshopped to be just a little bit taller than he actually is) adorn the highways of Tel Aviv.

Is he going to be indicted on bribery? Or was there not enough political will?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:42 pm UTC

I don't know, and I don't even know if it will harm him in any way. At this point I have higher hopes for the US becoming a better country before Israel does.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:09 am UTC

Inmates don't have a right to a painless death in the US.

The death penalty is terrible anyway, but this ruling emphasises how barbaric it is.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:20 am UTC

Angua wrote:Inmates don't have a right to a painless death in the US.

The death penalty is terrible anyway, but this ruling emphasises how barbaric it is.


If you've ever seen the excuses given for this they usually go something like: Their victims deaths weren't painless, why should theirs be?

Other popular sentiments:
>Xyz years to kill someone? Too long. A lot longer than their victims got.

>A xyz cents bullet...

>Just give me xyz minutes with them...

There's a sickening level of bloodthirst these days that probably stemmed from indignation taken too far by unimpeded mob mentality. At the very least it should be painless or it will make people even more bloodthirsty over time.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby PAstrychef » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:29 am UTC

The retributary nature of many laws and legal systems is nothing new. In fact, the idea that prison should attempt to rehabilitate prisoners is what’s new. An eye for an eye probably wasn’t a new thought when the Bible was being written, and god certainly illustrates the idea of overreaching in revenge all through the Torah.
Just as there are plenty of folks who think it’s fine that attempted robbery be met with getting killed, people see execution as the State doing what they wanted to do.
How much sympathy or empathy can/should society have for individuals who do terrible things? I would grant the condemned as painless a death as possible for my moral and ethical needs, not that I’m a believer in the death penalty myself.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:24 pm UTC

As I read it (last night, so may have forgotten a detail) it isn't the case that this execution is being made more painful by design, as it's the standard execution applied to others that has been deemed the lawful and suitably non-cruel method for every other person subject to such summary judgement.

It is that there are arguments that this case may involve an 'adverse reaction' (beyond the obvious and intended one), so they've been asking for an alternative method to be employed (not sure if they use that alternative at all, under any other current circumstance, though it seems feasible to set up reliably with legacy infrastructure) that would not invite those same risks.

The argument used against this case is that they aren't making it more painful by commission of a deliberately painful method (or by incompetence in/mishandling of the usually 'painless' methods, like the multi-injection system that was curtailed a few years back after one or more of its subjects visibly suffered reactions against the initial mixes), and that it's a legal fudge by the end-party to disrupt the lawful progress of his punishment by any spurious argument he can use.

Not that I'm unsympathetic with the "please don't be horrible, just by default" plea, which I noted was rejected on the edge of a minimally majority vote following the obvious party-affiliated lines. And, not being in a capital-punishment jurisdiction, I don't know what I can say for or against any of the Death Penalty methodologies anyway. Maybe nitrogen anoxia should wholesale replace any or all other methods (whether or not there's such medical issues, or even just acuphobia/etc, with the intended participant). But even if this case ended up pivoting policy towards that, I'm not sure I entirely believe this one person's desire for change is legitimate enough for the exception and the inevitable further delays in enacting the judgement previously handed down.

(If I had had the casting vote, I'd actually have probably gone with caution, but I can't imagine in what circumstances I would have had that vote, and I imagine I'd have by then understood enough of the process to have a higher understanding of the evitability or otherwise or the march of justice. And maybe some political pressures upon me, too.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:57 pm UTC

The usual standard for whether an execution method is “cruel and unusual” is whether it is worse than execution by firearm/firing squad. If it’s worse than bring shot with bullets, then one can srgue that it is deliberately cruel.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:35 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:worse than bring shot with bullets


I think the main concern with executions by firing squad is about psychological trauma for the executioners, rather than on physical trauma to the executed.

That's why there's a firing squad, rather than one person. There is a tradition of giving at least one of the shooters a blank or a wax bullet, with none of the shooters knowing which of them had the non-lethal ammunition. That way, all of them can plausibly convince themselves that they weren't actually responsible for causing the death of another human being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Lee_Gardner

Gardner was executed on June 18, 2010, at 12:15 am Mountain Daylight Time by a firing squad at Utah State Prison in Draper. He was placed in restraints on a black metal chair with a hood covering his head. Sandbags were arranged around him to absorb ricochets. The firing squad was made up of five anonymous volunteers who were certified police officers. The officers stood about 25 feet (7.6 m) from Gardner, aiming at a white target positioned over his heart. One of their .30-caliber Winchester rifles was selected at random and loaded with a non-lethal wax bullet so that they would not know with certainty who fired the fatal shots. According to the Utah Department of Corrections, the squad used a countdown cadence beginning with five and simultaneously firing right before two. His dark blue jumpsuit made it difficult to see the blood from his wounds. A medical examiner removed Gardner's hood to reveal his lifeless face. After verifying Gardner's lack of pulse at the neck and pupillary light reflex, the medical examiner pronounced him dead at 12:17 am. He was the first person to be executed by firing squad in the United States since the execution of John Albert Taylor 14 years earlier. A commemorative coin was commissioned for prison staff who participated in the execution.


Then again, if you're interested in a commemorative coin after having volunteered to participate in a firing-squad execution, maybe your conscience isn't really going to bother you all that much.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:57 pm UTC

Sure, but my point was that execution by shooting is so common and accepted that the prohibition on “cruel and unusual” execution methods ordinarily refers to methods that are more cruel than shooting them in a vital spot—methods such as live dismemberment or disemboweling, for example.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:34 am UTC

Stupid question time. Define "and" in "cruel and unusual". Is the ban on both cruel punishment and unusual punishment, or the ban on punishment that is both unusual and cruel?


As far as the death penalty is concerned, I don't think any one person or group of people should be given the task of execution, but I dont really know of any impersonal execution method beyond "refuse to feed until inmate dies of starvation" but that's not exactly a good solution. I might be able to think of something better, but I'm both afraid of that line of thought and I'm also a bit more sadistic than the pro-execution folks; my idea of punishment would be to surround the criminal with constant reminders of their crimes and how awful they acted. Reminders of the victim, who they were, their friends left behind, torn up families. Constant, basically hell itself.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:47 am UTC

Carbon monoxide and a lot of it.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:58 am UTC

C-4 shaped charge strapped to their head.

Adding...

Okay, yes, a lot of people would consider the C-4 shaped charge very unusual.

But from a standpoint of cruelty it would be as close to absolutely painless as any execution could be. For a very simple reason expressed commonly in the phrase, “no brain no pain,” which, in a physical sense, is quite true: since pain is felt within the brain, destroy the brain as instantaneously as possible and pain is minimized.

That it might be shocking is, well, transient: we would quickly grow used to it.

But what I see in society at large is, to a degree, what I see right here: in general, society wants its capital punishment to make the convict suffer. The same society might break its arm patting itself on the back about how humane or ordinary its punishments are, but this is self-delusion. Society wants the convicted to “feel sorry” and there is basically only one thing that will encourage a feeling of sorriness.

Personally, for this reason, I deplore capital punishment. It isn’t about restitution, elimination, or deterrence; it is purely and simply about society’s retribution; its urge to “get even.” That’s bad enough, but add to that the incompetence (or even illegality) with which prosecutions are pursued, and the inequities of wealth and bigotry, and I reach the conclusion that capital punishment is far more a loss to society than a gain.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:20 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Stupid question time. Define "and" in "cruel and unusual". Is the ban on both cruel punishment and unusual punishment, or the ban on punishment that is both unusual and cruel?
It is a ban on punishment that is both cruel and unusual.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:38 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Stupid question time. Define "and" in "cruel and unusual". Is the ban on both cruel punishment and unusual punishment, or the ban on punishment that is both unusual and cruel?
It is a ban on punishment that is both cruel and unusual.

End the ban on punishment, then..?

:?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:42 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Stupid question time. Define "and" in "cruel and unusual". Is the ban on both cruel punishment and unusual punishment, or the ban on punishment that is both unusual and cruel?
It is a ban on punishment that is both cruel and unusual.

It's understood that the clause means torture.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:47 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:C-4 shaped charge strapped to their head.

Adding...

Okay, yes, a lot of people would consider the C-4 shaped charge very unusual.

But from a standpoint of cruelty it would be as close to absolutely painless as any execution could be. For a very simple reason expressed commonly in the phrase, “no brain no pain,” which, in a physical sense, is quite true: since pain is felt within the brain, destroy the brain as instantaneously as possible and pain is minimized.

That it might be shocking is, well, transient: we would quickly grow used to it.


It's just that the idea seems traumatic to me. But maybe the idea of waiting to pass out from carbon monoxide might also be traumatizing. Also, I admit I'm not sure if carbon monoxide is painless or not.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby freezeblade » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:17 pm UTC

I've read that CO2 poisoning is painful, not so sure about CO. Maybe Nitrogen asphyxiation could be better? I've read that as it's pretty much just oxygen starvation, it's actually euphoric just before death, but that may not sit well with people, because they want the accused to suffer just enough, but not too much.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:25 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:I've read that CO2 poisoning is painful, not so sure about CO.


Carbon monoxide poisoning is indeed painless, at least initially, which is why it's so dangerous; you don't realize there's a problem until you are dead.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:38 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:I've read that CO2 poisoning is painful, not so sure about CO. Maybe Nitrogen asphyxiation could be better? I've read that as it's pretty much just oxygen starvation, it's actually euphoric just before death, but that may not sit well with people, because they want the accused to suffer just enough, but not too much.

From what I know, it is deemed the painless asphyxiant. We have CO2 'detection' in our biology because it is something that can easily accumulate in lieu of oxygen (by our own respiration converting one to the other) and has earned a biological imperative to avoid/escape.

Nitrogen just doesn't normally vary, or take a primary part in any naturally-encountered concerns (and is not a reactionary gas like CO1, which has other distressing effects even though it can creep up on you ninjaed) so it seems, as with truly inert-gasses in high concentrations, to have no significant indicators of harm as it does its work of depriving you of sufficient oxygen.

It's hard to know, precisely, because those who might have known for sure that it doesn't trigger unconveyable distress even at the far end of the process are not generally in a position to tell.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:08 pm UTC

Everything on CO poisoning says it causes headache...pain.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:35 pm UTC

I think (please check whatever sources you deem necessary, though) that the gas is initially not detectable for what it is doing until it has already started to cause systemic problems (which might be general headache/etc not obviously linked to what you're breathing) and you're already well down the road of being in trouble and impeded in understanding how to get out of it.

If you're already unconscious, perhaps by sleeping in a room into which a faulty heater/boiler is seeping its monoxide, you are unlikely to wake up to the threat without a suitable gas-alarm. But that happens for other more nasty fumes in the case of particularly pernicious materials burning in a house-fire (for which a properly positioned smoke alarm would also be a remedy) that you would more obviously notice by smell and sight if you're awake.


On an evolutionary scale, I don't think there has been any real time to develop precautionary CO 'distress'. It probably mostly arose as a thing to detect, ironically, once we had mastered fire and thus suppressed our fear of the flame and smoke that other creatures still react to (hence its usefulness to us) and it's been not much more than a blink of the genomic eye within which to generate such allels as are required to promote it to anything like the same reaction as CO2 (from holding out in unlit deep caves, or just breathing too shallowly - like you sometimes do at rest before automatically taking a large gulp to flush your lungs out, maybe even a partial reason behind the yawning reaction¹) where you can then understand and try to avoid your danger before it produces the actual symptoms..


¹ Which may be so important to do that it means that even with my just mentioning a *yawn* now makes you inclined to yawn yourself. But maybe arose so that groups could pick up on the cues by the most anoxic-sensitive individual and pre-empt the less sensitive individuals putting themselves in danger of approaching 'apathetic suffocation'. I don't think there's definitive ruling on this, yet, but that always made sense to me.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:55 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:I've read that CO2 poisoning is painful, not so sure about CO. Maybe Nitrogen asphyxiation could be better? I've read that as it's pretty much just oxygen starvation, it's actually euphoric just before death, but that may not sit well with people, because they want the accused to suffer just enough, but not too much.


Yeah, CO2 asphyxiation would probably be very painful. The feeling you get when you hold your breath for a long time and it gets painful is the body's reaction to excess CO2 (apparently the hypercapnian alarm response). The body doesn't have, from my understanding, a way to measure low oxygen in the blood directly--it just uses too much CO2 as a proxy which is good enough most of the time. Inert gas suffocation (via nitrogen, argon, whatever) can result in unconsciousness extremely quickly, so is probably pretty painless on the whole.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:07 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:The body doesn't have, from my understanding, a way to measure low oxygen in the blood directly--it just uses too much CO2 as a proxy which is good enough most of the time.

Yes it does, which is why you can't give too much oxygen to CO2 retainers because they no longer respond to CO2 and will lose the drive to breathe, going into type 2 respiratory failure.

You are right in that CO2 is the mainstay for the respiratory drive, but it is not the only one.
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