The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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CorruptUser
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:39 am UTC

ucim wrote:
the reuters article above wrote:“There is a screen that says, ‘Are you sure you want to do this?'” Miyagi said, adding that the employee “feels terrible about it.”
Does this screen appear when it is just a drill? Humanity has become inured to "are you sure" screens; as a programmer I don't know how to get around this.


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:47 am UTC

ucim wrote:Does this screen appear when it is just a drill? Humanity has become inured to "are you sure" screens; as a programmer I don't know how to get around this.

I think all you can do is spell out the consequences in simple terms: eg. "Clicking 'yes' will wipe all the files on your disk. Are you sure?"

Obviously the message should be different during a drill, and you make a good point that perhaps it wasn't (or wasn't different enough).

In this instance, I think the 'This is not a drill! Do you really want to send out these alerts?' popup should go to another user: It shouldn't be possible for a single person to trigger these alerts going out.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:14 am UTC

Plasma_Wolf wrote:I'm more interested in why people responded like this than what we learn from such a response. If there's an actual nuclear ballistic missile coming there's not much chance anyway, whether you're panicking in a cellar or not.

How much hiding helps depends a lot on where it hits in relation to you. Tsutomu Yamaguchi was classified as a survivor of both bombs in WW2 and lived into his 90s. This is why people making fun of the idea of videos instructing kids to hide under desks or people to duck under picnic blankets are wrong. If you aren't in the direct blast, there is going to be a lot of shaking and stuff falling much like an earthquake and there is going to be a very bright light you want to protect your eyes from. If you are close enough these sort of actions don't offer protection, you were going to die anyways so there is no real downside. Even if you knew you were the exact target of a NK nuke, I'd still recommend taking protective measures because who knows how accurate it will be.


elasto wrote:
ucim wrote:In this instance, I think the 'This is not a drill! Do you really want to send out these alerts?' popup should go to another user: It shouldn't be possible for a single person to trigger these alerts going out.

It also probably wouldn't hurt to have a simple, "Oops, that was an accident." message they could immediately send out.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 am UTC

idonno wrote:It also probably wouldn't hurt to have a simple, "Oops, that was an accident." message they could immediately send out.

According to the BBC they sent out oops emails after 18 mins and oops texts after 38 mins but that seems waay too slow - and does suggest that someone had to do it manually...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:41 am UTC

One of the Hiroshima doctors survived because he had been at a farmer's house treating a girl the night before. He was 3 miles away, behind a mountain. The blast at 3 miles, behind a mountain, was still strong enough to tear up that house and knock him around and injure him.

Worst part of the story was the first victim he saw. As he walked to Hiroshima, he saw a creature limping along. All black. It had 4 limbs, and a round lump where a head should have been, but no jaw or eyes. The creature collapsed to the ground, and as a doctor he went to take a pulse and grabbed what should have been a wrist, but he couldn't find any skin.

Unlike fire, which heats you up slowly (and painfully), destroying your organs in the process, the heat from a nuclear blast is more intense but much shorter lived. The first few millimeters or so of outer layer is turned to ash while your internal organs remain intact. With the destruction of the skin and the outer layers of muscle, death is almost certain but much, much slower. There's not as much pain as would be expected; most sensitive nerves are near the surface and these get destroyed. There's only the horror of waiting for the inevitable.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:55 am UTC

elasto wrote:According to the BBC they sent out oops emails after 18 mins and oops texts after 38 mins but that seems waay too slow - and does suggest that someone had to do it manually...

Why would it take 20mins longer to send out the text?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:34 am UTC

ucim wrote:
the reuters article above wrote:“There is a screen that says, ‘Are you sure you want to do this?'” Miyagi said, adding that the employee “feels terrible about it.”
Does this screen appear when it is just a drill? Humanity has become inured to "are you sure" screens; as a programmer I don't know how to get around this.

In this case I'd suggest a hardware solution borrowed from the aviation world: a guarded physical button secured with a breakable tab (like a fire extinguisher). Actually having to break something in order to press the button is something that I don't think anyone is inured to yet.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:30 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
elasto wrote:According to the BBC they sent out oops emails after 18 mins and oops texts after 38 mins but that seems waay too slow - and does suggest that someone had to do it manually...

Why would it take 20mins longer to send out the text?

How long before the "Hang on, did we just do what we thought we did?" realisation? And then if they didn't have a specific "Ooops!" procedure, they'd be wondering if they could send the "all clear" (despite it never being not clear).

And if it's all scripted, is the one guy who remembers the details of the obscure mail2sms portal actually in the room, to fire up a custom message, or do they have to phone him. Whilst he's probably started prepping for his own response to the fictional missiles.

They'll add things to the routine, from now on forward, but if it was an unanticipated problem then I can imagine that 20 minutes could get eaten up easily whilst trying to do "by the book" things that weren't even yet in the book. Or headless-chicken mode.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:53 pm UTC

They've already announced some corrections to procedures: They're creating a "cancellation template" that allows an immediate issue of 'oopsie' texts, and two people are now required to sign off the issuing of an alert rather than just one.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:13 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
idonno wrote:
elasto wrote:According to the BBC they sent out oops emails after 18 mins and oops texts after 38 mins but that seems waay too slow - and does suggest that someone had to do it manually...

Why would it take 20mins longer to send out the text?

How long before the "Hang on, did we just do what we thought we did?" realisation? And then if they didn't have a specific "Ooops!" procedure, they'd be wondering if they could send the "all clear" (despite it never being not clear).
Some amount of time less than the 18 mins it took to send the email. The next 20 mins to get up to the 38 mins it took to send the text are what I was asking about.
Soupspoon wrote:And if it's all scripted, is the one guy who remembers the details of the obscure mail2sms portal actually in the room, to fire up a custom message, or do they have to phone him. Whilst he's probably started prepping for his own response to the fictional missiles.
If they don't have some built in capability to send custom messages, I'm even more concerned about that. What happens if they need to send general instructions that are different than everything they thought to have automatic messages for?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:48 am UTC

I'm actually not sure whether I would prefer the system to be able to easily handle custom messages or not. It seems to me that would increase the potential harm of malicious misuse of the emergency alert system.

The message size limit of SMS makes it a poor medium for conveying potentially complex instructions anyway. If anything more complex than 'Seek Shelter' needs to be conveyed, there should be a way for the system to direct people to where they can find additional information, such as a radio/TV broadcast, or maybe a website I guess, but you wouldn't need any ability to send custom alerts to do that.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:08 am UTC

idonno wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:How long before the "Hang on, did we just do what we thought we did?" realisation? And then if they didn't have a specific "Ooops!" procedure, they'd be wondering if they could send the "all clear" (despite it never being not clear).
Some amount of time less than the 18 mins it took to send the email. The next 20 mins to get up to the 38 mins it took to send the text are what I was asking about.
Soupspoon wrote:And if it's all scripted, is the one guy who remembers the details of the obscure mail2sms portal actually in the room, to fire up a custom message, or do they have to phone him. Whilst he's probably started prepping for his own response to the fictional missiles.
And here, I believe, I've theoretically accounted for the extra time that you ask. Probably several factors ("wait, our system still uses SMS? Not Snapchat/Twitter/MySpace/Usenet/<insert whatever all the hoopy froods use these days>? And Joe over there only managed to Send To All on the email subscription list? Damn. Now we gotta send another Cancel message!") rather than one big delay, but it'll add up easy enough to minutes and minutes and more minutes.

If they don't have some built in capability to send custom messages, I'm even more concerned about that. What happens if they need to send general instructions that are different than everything they thought to have automatic messages for?
Until now, I would assume that the shift-handover exercise has not included practicing the Custom Message procedure because of the perceived danger of sending "Helicopter helicopter helicopter!" or "I hate my job!" to all recipients.


Really, though, I don't know (and have not bothered to keep up with the official explanations about) what caused the delay, save that 20 additional minutes may be a lifetime in the modern Web 3.0 world, but that just shows you how the Crowd have become more reactive, and outpaced a steadfast procedure that (one presumes) arose pre-Web 1.0, perhaps with the last major change to procedure being when it was realised that the density of cellphones was high enough to kludge on that functionality to what may have been an email-only (or perhaps also a limited-subscription autodialler to get key people up and out of bed in the middle of the night?) before that.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:29 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:If anything more complex than 'Seek Shelter' needs to be conveyed, there should be a way for the system to direct people to where they can find additional information, such as a radio/TV broadcast, or maybe a website I guess, but you wouldn't need any ability to send custom alerts to do that.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:40 pm UTC

I like that the phone number isn't even valid.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 pm UTC

This chatter reminds me of days long gone by.
Days when several times each week we had a Test of the National Broadcast System..

There was a 'tone' that was used.
That sound is still etched into my memory.

Duck and Cover and Orderly Evacuation Drills.

I have seen the way my people behave.
We can't do Orderly Evacuation, now.

Long ago, we gave up on surviving Nuclear War.
We began a program of avoiding survival.

We really Did have an agenda of Thriving not Surviving.
Those days are not so far in our past.

Today, we have an active bunch of Wing-Nuts that want to try Surviving.

I know some of those people.
Many have artificial joints others are on sophisticated and expensive heart and diabetic medication.
Medications that can Not be stored, long term.

Yet; They are supportive of policies that will pit man against man.
The Old Farts will lose. I tell them, You have already survived!" ('idiots...')
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:40 pm UTC

addams wrote:We can't do Orderly Evacuation, now.
In the extremely unlikely even of La Palma collapsing into the sea, everyone in the area shaded blue here (and in those two clear diamonds where I guess they didn't have the data needs to get 100m up in the air, way out to sea or somewhere not shaded blue here, in about 7 hours. Half a million people in Miami trying to get to Atlanta in a hurry, all at the same time? That wouldn't be orderly.

Having the Mermaid's Grotto from Disneyworld get washed out into the sea would be amusing, but apart from that it'd be a horror show.

Probably a good thing that scenario's not at all likely to actually happen.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CelticNot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:14 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:In the extremely unlikely even of La Palma collapsing into the sea, everyone in the area shaded blue here (and in those two clear diamonds where I guess they didn't have the data needs to get 100m up in the air, way out to sea or somewhere not shaded blue here, in about 7 hours. Half a million people in Miami trying to get to Atlanta in a hurry, all at the same time? That wouldn't be orderly.


Out of curiosity I moved the map over to Japan. At a 60m sea level rise, every single Japanese city with a population over half a million is liable to be underwater. That's more than a little scary.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:34 am UTC

The Flood Map is very entertaining.
In my area, where the Map shows Flooding,
I see water damage that is persisting from one year into the next.

It's almost like the Map has something to say that we should each be listening to.

Floods and Japan?
The Japanese have not been unaware of the risks.

Here is the Short Version.
A little over Ten Minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp2l6nFIsZA

What London has done is nearly as impressive.
The Netherlands also has engineering marvels.

The U.S. does not seem to have a plan.
Maybe, she just hasn't told me.

What have you heard?

Edit:
Huh?? I knew the Eastern U.S.had a little snow Winter 2018.
Some of these amateur clips show a problem with water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hL0STIV3wQ

I had not heard about water as a problem.
Had you heard about water running down city streets?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:33 am UTC

On a small scale our drainage organization is just completing a series of urban water storage systems designed to mitigate heavy rains. Multiple holding areas about a city block in size and underground. Some have parks built on the surface. They are preparing to dig a tunnel a couple of miles long under downtown to hold water as well. We don't have a convenient ocean to dump to so we hold and release. Overall the Corp of Engineers has a floodwater management plan that covers both the Ohio and the Mississippi. But you can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear. It drains a continent(or a lot of it) and there will be floods. 3000 or so miles of river with precisely one outlet. Hello New Orleans.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

Police discover 13 siblings found shackled to their beds in California home.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

Yeah. One of the most horrifying things about it is how old the oldest kids were, yet still in that situation, perhaps unable psychologically to escape it. That being the case, I also wonder if some of the older daughters are actually the mothers of some of their younger siblings...

I think this case is going to spell the end of California's lax homeschooling laws, which let me declare myself and my husband the administrators of a private school in order to homeschool my own two kids until high school with ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONTACT from government officials, no required testing, nada. Some families NEED, NEED, NEED someone to be checking up on the kids!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:33 pm UTC

When the story first broke I wondered why there were so many more girls than boys. It's possible, and maybe I've just been so disillusioned by the world, but my first thought was that this was a Crasters Keep situation.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm UTC

What are the odds of >= 10 girls given 13 kids?

I'll assume 50-50.

(13c10 + 13c11 + 13c12 + 13c13)/2^13
(286 + 78 + 13 + 1)/2^13
378/2^13
4.6%

So: suspicious but not certain evidence.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:02 pm UTC

The distribution isn't necessarily 50/50. There are examples (though not necessarily explanations) of fathers in specific circumstances having more children of one gender than the other. For example pilots are generally likelier to have daughters. I found an article supposedly citing a study pointing to fathers with brothers having more sons and vice versa, but it didn't link to the actual study. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more factors impacting it than just a 50/50 distribution.

In any case, still a horrible case. Heard about it today. I wonder if they family will be allowed to remain together. I suppose the children over 18 can be legal guardians to the younger ones.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:10 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:When the story first broke I wondered why there were so many more girls than boys. It's possible, and maybe I've just been so disillusioned by the world, but my first thought was that this was a Crasters Keep situation.

Gross dude. That is just gross.

AANyways: I hope any family that shackles people to beds, sends them to hospitals to be restrained, punishing excessively by FORCING them to stay in a room against their wills go straight to... and they get sued forever and ever more.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Dauric » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:In any case, still a horrible case. Heard about it today. I wonder if they family will be allowed to remain together. I suppose the children over 18 can be legal guardians to the younger ones.


Probably not a good idea, the elder children are probably not appropriately socialized to take on 'head of household' responsibilities. Would be a case of "throwing them in the deep end" of making their way in the world.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:41 pm UTC

Oh yeah, I agree. I have no idea what sort of social supports exist for adults in California though.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:56 pm UTC

Ginger, I understand your passionate response about wanting the parents to be severely punished. However, any parents who do grave harm to their children are mentally ill.

Retribution can't cure mental illness, or deter others from becoming mentally ill.

And not every victim wants retribution. Many people keep their victimization by family members a secret, precisely because they love the family members who have been harming them, and don't want bad things to happen to them. Emotions operate by their own bizarre logic.

Retribution's main function is to make society feel self-congratulatory about having done something to address the problem--even if that something doesn't really help matters.

Rather than pouring a lot of passion into punishing the evildoers, it would be more productive for society to think about appropriate treatment for all the family members, and about the factors that allowed this horrific situation to go undetected for so long (and make necessary changes to alleviate those factors). Taking a look at California's ridiculously lax homeschooling laws would be an excellent starting point.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:00 pm UTC

I was under the impression that California subcontracts all social services to the Church of Scientology. /snark


As for what should change, well, lets say the best practice would be to have social services make annual checks on all kids no matter the status.

First, who is going to pay, and how much would it cost?

Second, remember how recently we had that case of the home inspector demanding sexual favors in order to sign off? CPS isn't immune to that abuse either.

Third, there's a lot of false positives too, whether because of overzealous CPS workers, incompetence, the whole petty tyrant syndrome, or just a bad day.

Fourth, the whole innocent until proven guilty thing. Unless there is probable cause, e.g. a neighbor reports something, having everyone report to CPS is like having the police perform routine home inspections.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:06 pm UTC

I received social and crisis services in California. In a town with a V and J its name. ANYWAYS I had a counselor, homeless services, sometimes they'd make interventions when I was self-harming. And y'know cray-cray parents have every option to see therapists and stuffs like I did. If you can't can't stop abusing your kids then... I kinda think they should be homeless too. Yet ObsessoMom's post is Way Way Better and Measured emotionally than my twisted posts.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:07 pm UTC

Retribution's main function is to make society feel self-congratulatory about having done something to address the problem--even if that something doesn't really help matters.
This presumes that there is something to do. And sometimes retribution is self defense. In this case, everybody will see some kind of counseling, but it is self deceptive to believe the anybody truly understands this. Or can do anything to prevent it.

Sometime children who should be protected, who are under the eye of the system, die from the abusers the system is trying to protect them from. And it isn't purely an American issue. A young woman in Japan died under just these circumstances.

If you want to get all twisted up consider that one source suggests that as many as 1500 plus children die of abuse and neglect yearly. Even otherwise loving parents can be stupid and passively neglectful. A child in Tennessee died of rabies because his parents were too stupid to seek medical help after he was bit by a sick bat, in 2017. This is why I chose to let my genes die with me.


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