The Darker Side of the News

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:12 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:It doesn't really matter if you can just divest your interests from impacted industries when you see the fall coming.


Except that you have to find someone dumb enough to buy them off your hands. If you see the fall coming, others do as well, and you are left holding shit.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:16 pm UTC

That's what 401k's are for.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:48 am UTC

Zohar wrote:No it's not. Sexual behavior is a medically relevant fact, orientation has nothing to do with it.


If your sexual behavior as a woman is that you exclusively date and have sex with women, the term for that is lesbianism.

ucim wrote:First though, in this particular case the way it's being used is all screwed up. Lesbianism is not a medical problem. I won't even begin to figure out the thinking behind that.


It would probably behoove you to take a moment, before lighting up the torches and distributing the pitchforks, to consider the thinking behind what you're outraged about. I.e., it may have been recorded in the wrong section of the chart, it might be a transcription error (either human error or, as is more likely when a really silly mistake is made, Dragon dictation software,) or maybe this physician is a raging bigot; that's possible too.

However, if sexual orientation is innate and has a biological basis (which is what I understand),…


We're not sure, really. As with most nature/nurture debates, the smart money is with "a mixture of both."

then it may well be that the biology of it is correlated with the biology of other things that are of medical interest, same as race is correlated with sickle cell anemia. I don't know the answer, but I would not dismiss it out of hand.


Lesbianism itself is relevant in its own right. It might lead you to inquire more closely about bullying in the workplace or at school. It may affect family support systems -- has being a sexual minority caused an estrangement that could lead to a lack of support if someone developed cancer or congestive heart failure or dementia? Living in a bigoted society is stressful -- you might want to explore (beyond the normal screening) issues related to depression, anxiety, or substance abuse. You might as a provider simply want a note to remind yourself to use the right pronoun in referring to the patient's partner and not to offer them contraception. Etc.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:41 am UTC

EMTP wrote:It would probably behoove you to take a moment, before lighting up the torches and distributing the pitchforks,
Sorry to give the wrong impressionn - I wasn't lighting any pitchforks. I was just trying to make clear that in taking issue with the idea that sexual orientation is not medically relevant, I was not taking issue with the Zohar's reaction to this particular case. Yes, it could be an innocent error - I have no idea and wasn't really addressing that.

Just that orientation might be medically relevant (for different reasons than behavior might be).

And you're right in that social aspects of living with one orientation in a world that marginalizes it could also be medically relevant. However that slope can get slippery. I wasn't attempting to address that either.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:39 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:If your sexual behavior as a woman is that you exclusively date and have sex with women, the term for that is lesbianism.

No, it's not. That's why the term "men who have sex with men" exists, it's not there to act as a general label for homosexual men, bisexual men, pansexual men, etc., who have sex with men. The term was invented specifically to describe men who call themselves "straight" but end up having sex with other men. Another example - incarcerated straight men/women often end up having sexual relations with other men/women, without contradiction to their sexual identity. Another example - I was gay WAAAAAAAAY before I had sexual relations with anyone. Another example - "gay for pay" porn actors. There's a difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior! And my doctor doesn't need to know the former.

EMTP wrote:Lesbianism itself is relevant in its own right. It might lead you to inquire more closely about bullying in the workplace or at school. It may affect family support systems -- has being a sexual minority caused an estrangement that could lead to a lack of support if someone developed cancer or congestive heart failure or dementia? Living in a bigoted society is stressful -- you might want to explore (beyond the normal screening) issues related to depression, anxiety, or substance abuse. You might as a provider simply want a note to remind yourself to use the right pronoun in referring to the patient's partner and not to offer them contraception. Etc.

No, those are all wrong. If you experienced bullying, does it matter to the doctor if it's because you're a lesbian, or you're an immigrant, or you're a redhead, or Jewish? No! It's not relevant! The correct questions, the questions doctors actually ask, are "Do you experience a lot of stress in your life?" and "Do you feel you lack proper support networks?". If the answers to these are "Yes" then the doctor would refer you a mental health professional, maybe prescribe some anti-anxiety medication, possibly provide you the details of a non-profit organization that can help you with these areas.
Last edited by Zohar on Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:05 pm UTC

Hoo boy did this discussion just plunge down the rabbit-hole.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:29 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:If your sexual behavior as a woman is that you exclusively date and have sex with women, the term for that is lesbianism.
If I've only had sex twice, and both times were with men -- that means my sexual behavior as a man is that I've exclusively had sex with men. Does that mean I'm a homosexual? Do I actually have to go date a woman before I can refer to myself as bisexual?

What if I'm a sex worker who does a lot of gay sex? Can I no longer call myself heterosexual because of my sexual behavior? Does it matter that I'm not actually attracted to members of my own sex; I'm only doing it for the money?

Sexual orientation is actually pretty complicated; if you try to derive it by looking only at sexual behavior, you're eventually going to end up being wrong.
EMTP wrote:It would probably behoove you to take a moment, before lighting up the torches and distributing the pitchforks, to consider the thinking behind what you're outraged about. I.e., it may have been recorded in the wrong section of the chart, it might be a transcription error (either human error or, as is more likely when a really silly mistake is made, Dragon dictation software,) or maybe this physician is a raging bigot; that's possible too.
In what way is being a lesbian medically relevant? That's not me being snarky; I'm genuinely asking here: Why would the word 'lesbian' even be on a medical chart? In what way does this information help a doctor treat a patient?

EDIT: Oh, pardon, I missed that you already answered this question! I think you're off base, though -- we don't think of things as social identity as being medically relevant, do we? The stress caused by those identities might be medically relevant, sure -- but I wouldn't expect the word 'lesbian' on a medical chart anymore than I'd expect the word 'poor'. I'm not saying let's go grab pitchforks, but I am saying that my sexual orientation probably isn't any of my doctor's business.

(My sexual behavior might be, sure -- but not my sexual orientation!)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:38 pm UTC

A woman who kept a £20 note she found in a shop has been convicted of theft in a case that has prompted a combination of surprise and alarm for some people who think they might have done the same. But what rights do people have if they find something that belongs to someone else?

"Finders keepers, losers weepers" is an old adage that will be familiar to anyone who has lost something and seen it fall into someone else's hands.
But does that principle - effectively saying "tough luck, it's theirs now" - actually stand up to legal scrutiny?

A flurry of reaction to the case on social media saw protagonist Nicole Bailey dubbed either "morally wrong" for trousering the £20 note or the victim of harsh treatment for being hauled through the courts.

Bailey, from Blurton in Stoke-on-Trent, was ordered to pay out a total sum more than eight times as much as she pocketed - £20 in compensation, a £20 victim surcharge and £135 in court costs.

Prof Robert Chambers, an expert in private law at King's College London, said finders did have a right to keep something they discovered, but the "person who lost it still had a right to have it returned".

And the loser had a bigger right in law than the finder, he said.


link

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Oh, pardon, I missed that you already answered this question! I think you're off base, though -- we don't think of things as social identity as being medically relevant, do we? The stress caused by those identities might be medically relevant, sure -- but I wouldn't expect the word 'lesbian' on a medical chart anymore than I'd expect the word 'poor'. I'm not saying let's go grab pitchforks, but I am saying that my sexual orientation probably isn't any of my doctor's business.

(My sexual behavior might be, sure -- but not my sexual orientation!)


Just to reiterate, the article that inspired this discussion no longer exists at the end of that link. I didn't get to read it. Maybe it was mistaken to begin with.

I think important possible explanations are either a dictation error (which happened on a chart of a patient who happened to BE a lesbian), or they recorded the information in the wrong section of the chart. I have also noticed, more recently, the kids using problem lists to flag anything they might want to remember, such as critical medications needing monitoring (digoxin, coumadin) a plan for a chronic pain or psych patient (they get one shot of medicine and then if nothing is found, a security escort out of the ED as they have a history of attacking staff when discharged), etc. That's a bad habit but it's increasingly common as chart bloat makes it harder and harder to read a chart from beginning to end. So it may have been done deliberately, but foolishly, to flag someone as a lesbian so that the provider doesn't bug them about contraception, etc.

If this was done deliberately, that person needs some counseling about how to document. You're right, it's typically recommended to frame these things in the more detached language of sexual behavior ("has sex only with women") rather than sexual orientation. That's a rhetorical flourish, though, and it's not necessarily a mark of bigotry to call things by their commonly used non-derogatory names.

I do want to emphasize, though, that what a physician is interested in, in terms of a patient's life and choices, is very broad. (Of course "interested in" should not mean "judging you for.") I have ABSOLUTELY described a patient as poor. That is one of the MOST relevant facts impacting their treatment and recovery.

I remember a recent case, facial abscess & cellulitis, PA discharged them with a plan to put a hot compress on it three times a a day plus antibiotics. She came back, worse despite the antibiotics, and admitted to me (after careful & hopefully sensitive questions on my part) she couldn't put compresses on it because she was living out of her car. No hot water. She was living out of her car because she had finally left her abusive husband of 20 years. Really.

That was an admission to the hospital (with social work consulting) because her circumstances made it unsafe to treat her as an output. Sometimes I have to chose a cheaper antibiotic that the one I would prefer, rather than a perfect $70 prescription that will go unfilled. We help people connect with shelter beds and substance abuse treatment routinely. And so on. Health is connected to everything, and we don't get to ignore the non-biological issues. And this is not a new or modern/progressive "social justice" account of the physician's role. As per Hippocrates:
1. Life is short, and Art long; the crisis fleeting; experience perilous, and decision difficult. The physician must not only be prepared to do what is right himself, but also to make the patient, the attendants, and externals cooperate.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:10 pm UTC

You're literally saying the issue isn't "living in a car", it's "lack of access to hot water". That the woman decided to confide with you is great, that you referred her to other professionals who can support her is also great. But the practical thing you need to solve here isn't "She's poor" (or alternatively "She's a lesbian" or "She has sex with women") it's "She can't follow the treatment I've prescribed and I need to find alternative ways to help her". The question that should be asked at the end shouldn't be "Are you poor?" (because, really, that's one of many, many reasons someone won't have access to warm water). It's "Do you understand the treatment? Does this seem acceptable for you?"

And if I was asked this and answered "I don't have hot water because I'm living in my car" I would expect the doctor to write down "Patient doesn't have access to hot water, providing other options and referring to social worker to see if X or Y can be provided".

In any case, a very quick google search for "woman lesbianism doctor" easily finds other articles referring to this, if you're interested.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Liri » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:19 pm UTC

I know gay women who are on Borg birth control.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:27 pm UTC

Liri wrote:I know gay women who are on Borg birth control.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Birth control is used for a lot more than birth control, and some women can impregnate other women. So yeah, that's not particularly surprising.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Liri » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:28 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Liri wrote:I know gay women who are on Borg birth control.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Birth control is used for a lot more than birth control, and some women can impregnate other women. So yeah, that's not particularly surprising.

Yeah, that was my point.

In reference to what they said about it being relevant so doctors wouldn't bug them about birth control.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:50 pm UTC

Oh, sorry, I missed that connection.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:55 pm UTC

{Possible auto-play video}

Couple who stormed black child's birthday party with gun and Confederate flags cry as they are jailed

A couple were sentenced to 35 years in prison between them for storming the birthday party of an eight-year-old black boy and racially abusing the guests while waving Confederate flags.

Jose Ismael Torres, 26, was sentenced to 20 years in prison and will serve 13, and Kayla Rae Norton, 25, received 15 years, serving six.

Torres and Norton, from the state of Georgia, were found guilty of shouting racial slurs and threatening to kill partygoers, including the children, while waving Confederate flags.

Prosecutors told the court Torres even pointed a shotgun at the party.

The pair were convicted under a street gang terrorism law for the abuse, which took place in 2015 in Douglassville, outside Atlanta.


I do hope local businesses have a "no hiring convicted terrorists" policy.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Yeah, that was my point.

In reference to what they said about it being relevant so doctors wouldn't bug them about birth control.


If a doctor is suggested birth control for something other than preventing pregnancy, than orientation tends to be irrelevant anyways. The "bugging them for birth control" is more in response to the "are you planning on getting pregnant?" question not if they're using the birth control for some different purpose.

Overall I suspect that many doctors would just shorthand "has sex with men" for a man's chart as "gay". Yes it doesn't cover all the corner cases, but it generally informs the doctor of what they want to know (the having sex with men part). Since the default assumption is most likely heterosexuality, I can see why this shorthand would be used. Clearly it shouldn't be in the problems section, as I've stated before.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:12 pm UTC

"MSM" is already a pretty established shorthand that also conveniently avoids conveying completely false information about a man's sexual behavior.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:24 pm UTC

Chen wrote:If a doctor is suggested birth control for something other than preventing pregnancy, than orientation tends to be irrelevant anyways. The "bugging them for birth control" is more in response to the "are you planning on getting pregnant?" question not if they're using the birth control for some different purpose.

Overall I suspect that many doctors would just shorthand "has sex with men" for a man's chart as "gay". Yes it doesn't cover all the corner cases, but it generally informs the doctor of what they want to know (the having sex with men part). Since the default assumption is most likely heterosexuality, I can see why this shorthand would be used. Clearly it shouldn't be in the problems section, as I've stated before.


i think many of us understand why the shorthand is used. people are just saying that that reasoning has problems, some of which directly have to do with giving the best patient care and some of which have to do with reinforcing harmful societal tropes about sexuality.

there are a ton of reasons that using stereotyping shortcuts for your patients based on assumptions about What Queer People's Lives Are Like is bad for them. (like the birth control thing that has come up here by way of example: lots of the lesbians in my personal circle have sex often with men. if you want to know if your patient needs birth control, specifically for the purposes of preventing pregnancy or stis more common with piv sex, ASK IF THEY HAVE SEX WITH MEN. not if they're a lesbian.)

also, lots of gay folk i know don't have sex, at all. if you're affirming someone is having sex with men because they said they're gay, you're probably holding some homophobic ideas about queer people that reduces us ton the kind of sex we have and should maybe examine that.

if you're a doctor who is responsible for providing patient care, you should maybe examine that right quick.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:44 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:I do hope local businesses have a "no hiring convicted terrorists" policy.


Virtually every company has a "no felons" rule anway...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:18 pm UTC

natraj wrote:also, lots of gay folk i know don't have sex, at all. if you're affirming someone is having sex with men because they said they're gay, you're probably holding some homophobic ideas about queer people that reduces us ton the kind of sex we have and should maybe examine that.

if you're a doctor who is responsible for providing patient care, you should maybe examine that right quick.


No thanks, I'm not interested in a 9th level p0litical c0rrectness badge.

I suggest instead you get your medical care from your local Gender Studies professor. You will enjoy a provider who is hyper-aware of the most modern trends in woke terminology. Everyone's happy.

Seriously, calling someone a homophobe because they are using accurate and respectful terms that are minutely different from the accurate and respectful terms you think are ideal is insulting and disrespectful to the people trying to care for your lame ass. Gay, lesbian; these are not fighting words in 2017, ffs.

Zohar wrote:Birth control is used for a lot more than birth control, and some women can impregnate other women. So yeah, that's not particularly surprising.


Nope, women do not impregnate other women. You know those fundamentalist Christians who try to argue with the geological evidence that the earth formed billions of years ago? Or conservatives who deny CO2 is a greenhouse gas? Science deniers advocate ridiculous things that are factually untrue in order to stay ideologically correct. "Women can impregnate other women" = same sort of nonsense.

Now, I know what you mean. A man who feels like he's a woman can impregnate a woman. Because, biologically, she's a man (switching to what I imagine would be her preferred pronouns). She can also get prostate cancer, but does not need to be screened for cervical cancer. And so on.

Seriously. We have Reki healers for people who believe in energy currents. We have chiropractors for people who believe most disease is caused by spinal misalignment. I suggest Gender Studies professors for people who think women get women pregnant.
Last edited by EMTP on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:44 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:23 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:I'm not interested in a 9th level Basic Human Decency badge.
Clearly.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:28 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:Seriously, calling someone a homophobe because they are using accurate and respectful terms that are minutely different from the accurate and respectful terms you think are ideal is insulting and disrespectful to the people trying to care for your lame ass. Gay, lesbian; these are not fighting words in 2017, ffs.

Um, no.

First, natraj is a healthcare professional, I work in a family health center, please don't assume we're all detached and lacking any knowledge just because you happen to be a doctor or whatever.
Second, you're absolutely blind if you don't think LGBTQ people aren't threatened just because we're in 2017.
Third, we've already explained multiple times why using the language you suggest is harmful on a social level and can easily lead to misguided and wrong treatment. The fact you're unwilling to pause and think you should describe people's situations accurately is ridiculous, and I really hope I never need to be treated by someone with your attitude.
Fourth, there's nothing disrespectful with using these terms, true. That you're unwilling to recognize people's complex lives and use the correct terms they identify as, and recognize their reality instead of your conception of it? That's homophobic.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:40 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
EMTP wrote:I'm not interested in a 9th level Basic Human Decency badge.
Clearly.


HAHAHA! It's funny because because instead making an argument you can put your words in someone else's mouth. And it's also funny because I work in the community with the poorest, sickest, craziest, more marginalized people in society, drunks, drug addicts, schizophrenics, the bipolar, sex workers, abuse victims, the homeless, fighting for their health and safety every single day, and the guy whose major accomplishment in life is >25,000 posts on an online forum wants to talk to me about human decency! It works on so many levels!

Zohar wrote:
EMTP wrote:Seriously, calling someone a homophobe because they are using accurate and respectful terms that are minutely different from the accurate and respectful terms you think are ideal is insulting and disrespectful to the people trying to care for your lame ass. Gay, lesbian; these are not fighting words in 2017, ffs.

Um, no.

First, natraj is a healthcare professional, I work in a family health center, please don't assume we're all detached and lacking any knowledge just because you happen to be a doctor or whatever.


Yeah, whatever, seriously. How dare I stick my twenty years of experience in your politics.

BTW, before that I got an MA and Literary & Cultural Theory. So don't think I'm lacking knowledge of your leftist language politics. :roll:

Second, you're absolutely blind if you don't think LGBTQ people aren't threatened just because we're in 2017.


Straw man much?

Third, we've already explained multiple times why using the language you suggest is harmful on a social level and can easily lead to misguided and wrong treatment.


And I've explained multiple times why you're wrong and your hectoring is stupid and disrespectful.

The fact you're unwilling to pause and think you should describe people's situations accurately is ridiculous, and I really hope I never need to be treated by someone with your attitude.


Your local Gender Studies professor, I'm telling you, call today. They don't need stethoscopes or blood tests or anything. If you get sick, they will help you to deconstruct society's oppressive ableist concept of wellness.

Fourth, there's nothing disrespectful with using these terms, true. That you're unwilling to recognize people's complex lives and use the correct terms they identify as, and recognize their reality instead of your conception of it? That's homophobic.


I deal with reality reality. While your reality is interesting and may be relevant to your care, it doesn't determine mine. Just to be absolutely clear, you are calling me a homophobe because I said it might in some circumstances be appropriate to refer to someone as a lesbian. That is a parody of extreme leftist intolerance, and it would be humorous if it was not so destructive to the efforts of actual progressives to effect positive change in our society.
Last edited by EMTP on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:50 pm UTC

believe me, i am well aware that many doctors are extremely lacking in basic human decency and are chock-full of the homophobic and virulently transphobic ideas that you are currently putting forth. i've worked in the medical field a long time and it's pretty condescending to assume, as zohar pointed out, that we don't know what we're talking about just because we care about other things than you do.

i spend a good deal of my time, in fact, teaching other medical professionals exactly what we're talking about right now! how to get good, accurate patient histories WHILE treating your patient with respect and dignity and not making assumptions about their life/identity or disrespecting/judging them. like, this is a thing i give whole classes on to doctors/nurses/ other EMTs /etc. so i have in fact put some thought into how this affects patient care directly in addition to the social ramifications.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

natraj wrote:believe me, i am well aware that many doctors are extremely lacking in basic human decency and are chock-full of the homophobic and virulently transphobic ideas that you are currently putting forth.


Gender Studies professors, I'm telling you. It'd be a great sideline for them, academics are always short on cash.

i've worked in the medical field a long time and it's pretty condescending to assume, as zohar pointed out, that we don't know what we're talking about just because we care about other things than you do.


I don't ASSUME you don't know what you're talking about. I might argue you've DEMONSTRATED you don't know what you're talking about, but actually, you are attributing to me something I haven't said and don't mean. Because I'm saying "they might have been thinking X" does not mean I feel or am claiming my ideas about the subject are the final word. I have written many thousands of medical charts, so I do know one or two things about them. Many people have no idea (why would they?) about HPIs, or problem lists, or social/family history. If I give background, instead of imagining I'm trying to lay down the law in the voice of God, please consider I might be addressing people outside the medical field entirely.

I shared a little bit of my experience, the challenges and multi-dimensional concerns physicians have with respect to their patients' lives, and you chose to take that as discounting your experience. Really, I think you must spend a lot of time in a discourse where if anyone challenges you, you call them a homophobe and they show you the back of their neck and beg forgiveness. Hence, anything other than immediate licking of your boots feels like disrespect to you.

I will say it again: I do not think referring to someone as a lesbian is an insult. (It's interesting that you do!) I do think whether someone is a self-identified lesbian can be relevant to their medical care. Hence, I don't think it's a terrible thing to put that in a chart (there might be better word choices), although, as I've said, it doesn't belong on the problem list.

i spend a good deal of my time, in fact, teaching other medical professionals exactly what we're talking about right now! how to get good, accurate patient histories WHILE treating your patient with respect and dignity and not making assumptions about their life/identity or disrespecting/judging them. like, this is a thing i give whole classes on to doctors/nurses/ other EMTs /etc. so i have in fact put some thought into how this affects patient care directly in addition to the social ramifications.


That's great. I'd be interested in your experience and your suggestions. I am not interested in whether you think I'm a homophobe because I might make or defend as minor slightly different choices with language. You can feel free to keep any judgements of that sort to yourself.

Something that has cropped up here over and over again is respect for one's lived experience. I think that's an important thing, and not just as regards the experience of being a sexual minority. I too have a lived experience, I too would like that experience to be treated with respect.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:34 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:You can feel free to keep any judgements of that sort to yourself.
Alternatively, you could feel free to stop being homophobic when queer people in the medical profession tell you that's what your medical opinions amount to.

When you act like an asshole you'll be called out on it. Feel free to find somewhere else to post.

Something that has cropped up here over and over again is respect for one's lived experience. I think that's an important thing, and not just as regards the experience of being a sexual minority. I too have a lived experience, I too would like that experience to be treated with respect.
Your lived experience regarding other people's lives do not carry the same weight as people's lived experiences regarding their own lives.

Feel free to drop the false equivalence bullshit.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Felstaff » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:50 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
I work in the community with the poorest, sickest, craziest, more marginalized people in society, drunks, drug addicts, schizophrenics, the bipolar, sex workers, abuse victims, the homeless, fighting for their health and safety every single day

Image


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Go ahead, take it.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:58 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Alternatively, you could feel free to stop being homophobic when queer people in the medical profession tell you that's what your medical opinions amount to.


Again, inconveniently for you, that's a matter of reality reality, not imagined reality. In reality reality I'm neither homophobic, nor have I said anything homophobic. Because a bully -- whatever their sexual orientation -- wants to try and turn around a losing argument by waving the bloody shirt and accusing someone of homophobia (super original move, BTW :roll: ) does not make it true in reality reality.

When you act like an asshole you'll be called out on it.


Right back at you, big guy. Go over this thread line by line, you'll find plenty of folks, including yourself, whose behavior fits that description, & you'll find me saying biological women do not impregnate other women. Also, that the term "lesbian" is not an insult.

Feel free to find somewhere else to post.


That's the first good idea you've had. You can feel free to spout your language police bullshit without any grow-ups contradicting you going forward. Your comments are so consistently useless and pointless I'd gladly set you to "ignore" if I could.

Your lived experience regarding other people's lives do not carry the same weight as people's lived experiences regarding their own lives.

Feel free to drop the false equivalence bullshit.


How I document in a chart is my life, not your life. How I care for patients is my life, not your life. This is about a physician charting. My experience, not yours. Glad I could clarify that for you.

You are an obnoxious bully who would not last 2 seconds with actual marginalized people who actually needed your help to survive the night. That's you. I hope you're comfortable with that. :D

You may now resume your regularly scheduled Two Minutes Hate.

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You're right, I have. But hey, I'll never have five thousands posts on an internet forum inspired by a single-panel webcomic, will I? So we've both got stuff going on!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:07 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:You are an obnoxious bully who would not last 2 seconds with actual marginalized people who actually needed your help to survive the night. That's you. I hope you're comfortable with that.
While it's true I lack the medical training to help people survive the night, that is literally a thing natraj (who is in addition actually one of those marginalized people you apparently want a cookie or whatever for so magnanimously helping) has helped people do, so any time you want to stop talking out your ass would be dandy.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:33 pm UTC

So do I just pretend to be Belial here, or do I wait for EMTP to appologize and, when that doesn't happen, ban him then?

Given that I'm posting this, obviously the second. But maybe I'll be surprised!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:16 am UTC

EMTP, I've watched people I love have their lives wrecked by medical professionals carrying this sort of caustic, paternalistic sentiment. It is a dangerous thing, particularly given the position you claim. After your posts here, I would be very anxious over letting you treat me or anyone I care about, particularly given my experiences with the medical field. I realize you likely don't care -- but I think that's that's part of the problem.

Physician, heal thyself.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:12 am UTC

EMTP wrote:<repetitive things>

At the end of the day, real, actual LGBTQ people who work in the medical field (natraj has A LOT more experience than I do though) have given you input about how real actual LGBTQ people should be referred to. You've decided to ignore that, despite your sainthood. Please take time to consider who has more to learn from whom here, with regards to the treatment of LGBTQ people.

Also, I never once called you a homophobe, though you seem to consistently claim I did so. I said what what you described was homophobic. Everyone does homophobic things, myself included. It's human nature, when you live in a society that is constantly aggressive towards LGBTQ people. Someone pointing out to you "What you said was homophobic" is not a condemnation or a stamp of being a terrible person. It's a trigger to reexamine your positions. Something which you clearly haven't done. Of course, I don't have a masters in literary theory.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:21 am UTC

I'd rather the discussion with EMPT stop. Especially after EMPT apologizes.

Otherwise, move the conversation along to something else. If you feel a need to get in your two cents on EMPT's words....

Don't.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Belial » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:37 am UTC

It would be mean to keep harping on EMTP when he so clearly doesn't want to be here and just can't find the exit.

It's cool.

I'll help.

(I mean come on, I was invoked)
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:39 am UTC

China has launched a Donald Trump-style attack on foreign media, branding claims that a leading human rights lawyer was tortured by government agents “fake news”.

Xinhua, the government’s official news agency, accused the overseas media of “hyping” a series of “cleverly orchestrated lies” by publishing reports about the plight of attorney Xie Yang, who was detained in July 2015 at the start of a crackdown known as China’s war on law.

It alleged the reports had been “entirely fabricated” by Jiang Tianyong, another prominent human rights lawyer who disappeared last November after being seized by police.

Xinhua claimed an independent team had been sent to investigate claims of Xie’s mistreatment and concluded the “so-called torture did not happen”.

Its reporters, who were given access to both detained men, claimed Xie said he was in good physical condition and was being treated well by prison guards who were giving him nine hours’ sleep each day and “decent food”.

Cook said China’s fake news claim also underlined how Trump’s use of the concept to discredit unwanted press coverage was being picked up by different authoritarian regimes and leaders and state media around the world.

The US president’s repeated attacks on the media not only made it harder for Washington to criticise press freedom violations elsewhere but also provided “cover for regimes like the one in Beijing” to attack the press, Cook said, adding: “I’m assuming they must be pretty pleased.”

Patrick Poon, a Hong Kong-based Amnesty International activist, said while China’s state-run media routinely accused foreign counterparts of producing biased or inadequately sourced articles about the country, it was rare for the charge of fake news to be made.

“It seems the Chinese media is borrowing the term from Donald Trump to discredit the western media,” Poon said. “It is really worrying.”


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:52 am UTC

Trump's getting the credit, but it's an invention of right-wing trolls.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:50 pm UTC

Is that really new though? They may not have actually used the term "fake news" before, but Xinhua complaining about the west lying and misleading the Chinese people is not uncommon.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:06 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Is that really new though? They may not have actually used the term "fake news" before, but Xinhua complaining about the west lying and misleading the Chinese people is not uncommon.


Not new, but it does give them an additional avenue of credibility: "See, Even western leaders say their media is full of shit! Clearly they can't be trusted at all!"
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:08 pm UTC

lenient

An Air Force noncommissioned officer convicted of misconduct with eight women, including three who accused him of sexually assaulting them, was sentenced to three months confinement and another month of hard labor, a punishment a victims' rights advocate called "shockingly light."

Tech. Sgt. Anthony Lizana, 35, also was reduced in rank to airman first class and was given a dishonorable discharge Saturday night at his trial at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland.

The San Antonio Express-News reports the jury of two officers and five senior noncommissioned officers could have sentenced Lizana to nearly 38 years in prison for his conviction on four charges and eight specifications of misconduct that included dereliction, adultery, assault consummated by battery and sexual assault.

Military prosecutors originally lodged seven charges and 17 specifications of misconduct against him. Conviction on all those charges could have resulted in more than 87 years in prison.

Lizana's attorneys presented no witnesses in his defense.

The senior prosecutor, Capt. Bradley Palmer, said most of the victims were first-term airmen out of high school and were inexperienced, vulnerable and uncertain how to handle some situations.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:36 pm UTC

Adultery is still a crime? Or does that have some different meaning in the armed forces?


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