The Darker Side of the News

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SDK » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

... I have no idea what that means. Are you comparing age restrictions to immigration restrictions?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:08 pm UTC

Yeah that has nothing to do with what we discussed.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby morriswalters » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:59 pm UTC

Without being sure, I would speculate that he just told you that you jumped to the wrong conclusion when you called him a racist. He seemed to be characterizing what other people might be thinking rather than what he thought about it. He isn't very clear. I don't really care though, I'm mostly listening.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:21 am UTC

The US visa application process is very drawn out and difficult- much more so than any other country I am aware of. As someone from a "white" country that's been a member of the EU for over a decade and gone through the process several times in that time, I have seen people get denied visas at the interview for a variety of reasons. The B-1 visa people would need for a single time event like this summit requires the applicant really prove their "ties to their country" which is not always possible even if the trip itself is perfectly legitimate.

All that is to say the 40% number rejection rate doesn't mean much out of context so unless someone knows a lot more about rejection rates, I am inclined to think it is unremarkable. The 100% rejection rate is clearly different although the article does a terrible job of explaining it. It claims applicants were called in for interviews days before they had to travel but that's nonsense- applicants are responsible for scheduling their own interviews (i.e. it isn't the embassy that tells you when to come in unless you need an emergency interview and go around the normal scheduling process) and they should have had theirs months before they intended to travel, not days before.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:05 pm UTC

While there's some nonzero rejection rate for most countries, I guarantee the rate for your "white" country is less than 40%.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:57 pm UTC

First, to clarify, I have also gone through the US visa application process, as well as the green card application process. I also know people who work in embassies and do exactly these kinds of interviews. My knowledge is not from within the inner workings of a US embassy, but it's not too far off either.

The fact that I'm one among several who consider Sableagle's comments racist is a testament that they at the very least didn't make themselves clear (after multiple attempts to get clarification). However, there's a major difference between what they wrote and the example they provided. That being, in the example for how we jump to conclusions, they describe a fact and the conclusion we'll jump to ("There's an age limit > I'm a pedophile"). In the actual posts discussed, they don't provide just facts - they provide additional commentary ("100% were rejected, it's because everyone thinks Nigeria is terrible > I'm a racist"). The additional commentary is the problematic part, for reasons already described (lack of willingness to imagine people complexly, assuming seven countries have the same characteristics as one specific one, etc.).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:05 pm UTC

I didn't mean to comment on Sableeagle's post at all, its the whole event that I find confusing. I was initially under the impression that these people had been stopped at the border like happened when the first travel ban happened. What I gathered from this article is that instead they had all been denied visas in the first place which is a lot more confusing. Did the US stop issuing visas for these countries entirely? If so, why is no one talking about that? If not, why did all the guests for the summit get refused while other people are still getting visas? Did everyone have their interviews days before they were supposed to fly out? These things are usually arranged months in advance so you would expect at least some of the guests would have tried to get visas before Trump took office which was less than two months before the summit. How many people were even denied visas? Slightly more info here but I only learned that all of this information comes solely from the CEO of the company that organized the event and any visa denials was not due to Trump's travel ban because no one from those countries tried applying.

gmalivuk wrote:While there's some nonzero rejection rate for most countries, I guarantee the rate for your "white" country is less than 40%.

You know of some official source on visa rejection numbers? Otherwise I am not sure how you are "guaranteeing" anything.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby plytho » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:12 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:You know of some official source on visa rejection numbers? Otherwise I am not sure how you are "guaranteeing" anything.

Here's a source + how that data is calculated: link
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:18 pm UTC

According to that, Canada has nearly a 50% rejection rate, compared to around <10%-20% for most Western European countries. I wonder if that's simply because people don't take as much time to research what is necessary to travel here, since it's just across the border.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:28 pm UTC

As explained in the article, everyone applied months in advance. I don't know about other countries, but in Israel at least, when I needed to get a visa to work in the US, I knew I had to apply about six months in advance to make sure I got it in time. It's pretty well-known to be an ordeal that can take very long. And yes the interviews are supposed to be scheduled within a month or so of applying. It also costs a not-insubstantial amount ($160 dollars for a B1/B2 type visa in Israel, which allows you to conduct temporary business in the US). People know this is an involved process.

Lastly, people are not generally invited to conferences just for funsies. I wouldn't go to a business conference (in a foreign country no less) because I don't have a business. I find it highly unlikely anyone was invited that didn't own/run a business in their home country, unless they're a speaker. And that's a pretty fucking substantial tie. Also, almost all of them would have applied for the visa on their own, without any family members they may be attached to, which is another substantial tie to their home countries.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:39 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:According to that, Canada has nearly a 50% rejection rate, compared to around <10%-20% for most Western European countries. I wonder if that's simply because people don't take as much time to research what is necessary to travel here, since it's just across the border.

It's not for every kind of traveling, but just that one type of visa.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

B visas are for both short-term business and travel (B1 is tourist, B2 is business, many people get a "B1/2" visa)
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

BTW, because I'm bored I had a look at the file plytho found (which I also found with a very quick google search). Of course this isn't an accurate study, and to get the best idea you'll have to compare total population, total people applying, etc.

But, of the top 30 countries with the lowest refusal rates (i.e. US lets lot of people in), only one (Namibia) is in Africa. Of the bottom 30 (i.e. refuse many people), 14 are in Africa.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:As explained in the article, everyone applied months in advance. I don't know about other countries, but in Israel at least, ...

I believe that is the typical process which is why I find it so confusing that the article claims
Ms Flowers said those who were denied visas were called for embassy interviews days before they were supposed to travel, despite having applied weeks or months in advance.
The applicant chooses the date for the interview and it is supposed to happen before you finalize plans like buying tickets so what's all this about? Almost sounds like they got called in again after they already had visas but AFAIK that's not possible.

P.S. I don't have time to look at it in detail right now but that document seems to be about visa waiver refusals not visa refusals. Unless I am misunderstanding this badly, they are very different things.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:34 pm UTC

I don't know how many people attend this conference. I find it highly unlikely that business leaders is seven separate countries have all done the same administrative mistake when applying for visas, even this encompasses only seven people. It's a lot more plausible there's a concerted effort by the institution that's common to all of these occurrences to cause this.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby plytho » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:05 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:P.S. I don't have time to look at it in detail right now but that document seems to be about visa waiver refusals not visa refusals. Unless I am misunderstanding this badly, they are very different things.


After reading the document a couple of times (I find the language very confusing) I'm pretty sure it's about visa refusals. The waiver program only applies to a (mostly european) subset of the countries listed. The document also notes that visa refusals are inflated for waiver-countries as many people from those countries traveled without visas (using the waiver program) and would have received visas if they applied.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:30 pm UTC

"Terrorist" incident outside Parliament in Westminster. At least one person confirmed dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505
A woman has died and a police officer has been stabbed in the Houses of Parliament in London, in what police are treating as a terrorist incident.

The attacker, who was shot by police officers, is reported to have earlier mowed down several pedestrians as he drove a car across Westminster Bridge.

He crashed it into railings before running into the Palace of Westminster and stabbing the officer.


Latest updates: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:55 pm UTC

Wtf is up with the US medical ethics system http://gizmodo.com/texas-senate-passes- ... socialflow
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:09 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Wtf is up with the US medical ethics system http://gizmodo.com/texas-senate-passes- ... socialflow

Might be missing something, but what does this have to do with medical ethics in the US? I'd be surprised to hear that the AMA would be down with this sort of law. No, this seems more like pure political posturing.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Someone at work was complaining today that he couldn't take his daughter to a classical music event for her 18th birthday because it had a 25-year minimum age.

There you go. Assume I'm a predatory paedophile from now on. I'm not going to argue. As my signature says, I don't know, and have no opinion.
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Mutex wrote:"Terrorist" incident outside Parliament in Westminster. At least one person confirmed dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505
A woman has died and a police officer has been stabbed in the Houses of Parliament in London, in what police are treating as a terrorist incident.

The attacker, who was shot by police officers, is reported to have earlier mowed down several pedestrians as he drove a car across Westminster Bridge.

He crashed it into railings before running into the Palace of Westminster and stabbing the officer.


Latest updates: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby HES » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:50 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:"Terrorist" incident outside Parliament in Westminster. At least one person confirmed dead.

Reports are that the officer has also died.

It very much seems that the vehicle attack is the new vector of choice.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

HES wrote:
Mutex wrote:"Terrorist" incident outside Parliament in Westminster. At least one person confirmed dead.

Reports are that the officer has also died.

It very much seems that the vehicle attack is the new vector of choice.


A car and a knife is all you need to pull off an attack.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:44 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:A car and a knife is all you need to pull off an attack.
Airlines already ban knives on planes; how long until they ban cars, too?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Jumble » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:46 pm UTC

As fate happens I'm actually not in my office today (which is 100 yards from the event) as I'm in Cornwall with my father (my mother died last week). As I and my team spend a lot of time walking between the Foreign Office and Westminster palace I was immediately scared my friends were caught in this. I've managed to confirm my team, and I understand my wider department, are unhurt but it doesn't lessen the shock.

Awful news. We knew it would happen sooner or later. Those of us who work there always realised you couldn't stop every attack. However, why target children, unless you want to demonstrate you really have no moral justification and are just a pointless shit?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:47 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:
Angua wrote:Wtf is up with the US medical ethics system http://gizmodo.com/texas-senate-passes- ... socialflow

Might be missing something, but what does this have to do with medical ethics in the US? I'd be surprised to hear that the AMA would be down with this sort of law. No, this seems more like pure political posturing.

Mainly this paragraph:
Texas Senate Bill 25 makes it illegal to sue a doctor for what’s known as a “wrongful birth.” Though rare, doctors have been sued in the past for not informing women about fetal defects that are found during ultrasound and other prenatal testing, the argument being that the women would have chosen to terminate the pregnancy if they had been properly informed. The bill was passed by the senate yesterday with a 21-9 vote would relieve medical professionals of legal liability in such cases.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

Yeah, that article is (obviously) describing an incredibly fucked up law, but the big takeaway (for me) was that -- apparently -- some doctors thought it was totally okay to withhold medical information from their patients out of fear of what they might do with it.

Enough, at least, that legislatures felt the need to write a law to protect their extraordinarily shitty and irresponsible behavior.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:04 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
WibblyWobbly wrote:
Angua wrote:Wtf is up with the US medical ethics system http://gizmodo.com/texas-senate-passes- ... socialflow

Might be missing something, but what does this have to do with medical ethics in the US? I'd be surprised to hear that the AMA would be down with this sort of law. No, this seems more like pure political posturing.

Mainly this paragraph:
Texas Senate Bill 25 makes it illegal to sue a doctor for what’s known as a “wrongful birth.” Though rare, doctors have been sued in the past for not informing women about fetal defects that are found during ultrasound and other prenatal testing, the argument being that the women would have chosen to terminate the pregnancy if they had been properly informed. The bill was passed by the senate yesterday with a 21-9 vote would relieve medical professionals of legal liability in such cases.

Ah, I see better now, thank you. I'd be interested to know how often doctors withhold information from patients, though, to see whether it's a failure of medical ethics in the US as a whole or individual practitioner ethics. I want to hope that it's a small subset of idiot doctors who forgot what they should be doing, but I have a feeling I'd be surprised.
The Great Hippo wrote:Yeah, that article is (obviously) describing an incredibly fucked up law, but the big takeaway (for me) was that -- apparently -- some doctors thought it was totally okay to withhold medical information from their patients out of fear of what they might do with it.

Enough, at least, that legislatures felt the need to write a law to protect their extraordinarily shitty and irresponsible behavior.

I have a feeling (or a hope, more likely) that it doesn't actually happen often enough that a legislator read about it in the newspaper and said "Someone has to help these poor doctors!" and more a politician trying to say to his constituents "Hey! Look! Doctors no longer have to fear 'wrongful birth' suits! I know they've all been hamstrung by having to disclose information, and a lot of them would love to withhold from their actual patients, but they've been worried about lawsuits! WELL WORRY NO MORE! I have saved you, and now you can trick people into avoiding abortions! YAY FOR ME, AMIRITE?"


(edit: In case it's not clear, I firmly agree this is a shitty idea. I'm just hoping it's a shitty politician's idea, and not the result of lots of shitty doctors.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:25 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:However, why target children, unless you want to demonstrate you really have no moral justification and are just a pointless shit?
To show they have no moral qualms about that, to show that nobody is safe. They are terrorists, after all. Which is the more terrifying thought, seeing a car coming charging at you with nowhere to jump to or seeing a car charging at your children with no way to save them? MI5 say:
Terrorist groups use violence and threats of violence to publicise their causes and as a means to achieve their goals. They often aim to influence or exert pressure on governments and government policies but reject democratic processes, or even democracy itself.
A quite interesting bit of reading says there isn't a UN definition, which is something of a problem, and quotes this one:
Activities that severely endanger society that have the goal of creating terror in society, endangering public security, or threatening state organs and international organisations and which, by the use of violence, sabotage, intimidation, and other methods, cause or are intended to cause human casualties, great loss to property, damage to public infrastructure, and chaos in the social order, as well as activities that incite, finance, or assist the implementation of the above activities through any other means.
With a "goal of creating terror in society," and possibly of disrupting the education system, making parents fear for their children's safety is an achievement. If it makes people transport their children everywhere in reinforced SUVs, it increases Saudi oil revenues and thus ISIS funding, too!

The use of a vehicle as a weapon wasn't that big a leap. They've been killing more people than guns for a very long time, and fans of Top Gear insist we make them better and better at it year on year.

Traffic Accidents Top Cause Of Fatal Child Injuries
Road traffic injuries Fact sheet
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:27 pm UTC

I mean, if they're giving the argument that if they'd told the women they might have had an abortion, that's pretty explicit rather than 'there are lots of things to mention and I just forgot this specific one.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:36 pm UTC

HES wrote:
Mutex wrote:"Terrorist" incident outside Parliament in Westminster. At least one person confirmed dead.

Reports are that the officer has also died.

It very much seems that the vehicle attack is the new vector of choice.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Jumble » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:To show they have no moral qualms about that, to show that nobody is safe. They are terrorists, after all. Which is the more terrifying thought, seeing a car coming charging at you with nowhere to jump to or seeing a car charging at your children with no way to save them?


Agreed. Only thing is, if you are stupid enough to die for a cause wouldn't it make sense to pick a cause with some form of moral anchor? I'm not much of a theologian but I've not seen a deity with a passable justification for murdering children.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Mutex wrote:A car and a knife is all you need to pull off an attack.
Airlines already ban knives on planes; how long until they ban cars, too?


Quite most planes already ban cars.

Intentional misinterpretation man away! *makes flying sounds*

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Quite most planes already ban cars.
Are we sure? Has anyone ever tried taking their car through the TSA checkpoint?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SDK » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:54 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:
Sableagle wrote:To show they have no moral qualms about that, to show that nobody is safe. They are terrorists, after all. Which is the more terrifying thought, seeing a car coming charging at you with nowhere to jump to or seeing a car charging at your children with no way to save them?


Agreed. Only thing is, if you are stupid enough to die for a cause wouldn't it make sense to pick a cause with some form of moral anchor? I'm not much of a theologian but I've not seen a deity with a passable justification for murdering children.

Morality stems from God alone. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? Only God can judge, and it is by his will and for his glory that this war is fought. What must be done is done for the greater good.

Not my actual beliefs. Local charges may apply.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:56 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Are we sure? Has anyone ever tried taking their car through the TSA checkpoint?

I heard somebody in Germany gave it a try, but it turned out they already had an...

...autobahn.

...

(why do I keep doing this why god why)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:10 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:I'm not much of a theologian but I've not seen a deity with a passable justification for murdering children.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/08/the-bible-is-pro-child-killing/

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-hom ... -pro-life/

Neither have I, but some people claim that they have.
I don't know and have no opinion.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

Two sources from very different socio-economic positions within the UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01 ... -plumbers/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 15296.html

I got the info from a Care2 spam and just had to verify it twice.

T:
Britain's biggest landlord has banned "battered wives" from his properties claiming he does not want to risk ex-husbands or boyfriends returning to destroy his houses.

Fergus Wilson, who runs a property empire in Kent, said he will no longer take victims of domestic violence as jealous or angry partners typically cause damage by kicking down front doors and punching holes in the interior.

He has also barred plumbers from becoming tenants in his latest "letting criteria" because he believes they rip him off when it comes to advice about repairs.

The 69-year-old, who campaigned to become Kent's Police and Crime Commissioner and vowed to support victims of domestic abuse, set out the 11 rules in a document, which was posted online after it was issued to a letting agent.

Single parents, workers on low income or zero hours contracts, families with children, pet owners, smokers and single adults will also not be considered. Only those who are able to afford rent and can provide a rent guarantee are to be accepted for his properties this year.


I:
One of the UK's biggest landlords has instructed agents acting on his behalf not to let his properties to "battered wives", single parents, low income workers, people on zero-hour contracts, or plumbers.

Fergus Wilson, along with his wife Judith, is among the UK's most prolific buy-to-let investors, owning a Kent property empire believed to consist of around 1,000 homes in the Ashford and Maidstone areas.

The 69-year-old defended his "latest criteria" for tenants, telling local media he does not want to risk "bully" ex-husbands or boyfriends returning to destroy his houses, and he dislikes plumbers because they "always rip him off".

In 2016, Mr Wilson, who is estimated to own properties totaling £250 million and has been included in the Sunday Times rich list, campaigned to become Kent's Police and Crime Commissioner, vowing to take on "bullies who batter their girlfriends, wives or partners".

“We have said nothing against lesbians and homosexuals or coloureds," he said. "As long as they can pay the rent. We are in business to make money so we make a selection based on a sensible business plan," he said.


Congratulations, Mr Wilson. You've managed to offend the Torygraph and the Independent Guide to Liberal Democrat Policy-Making at the same time. That's an achievement, too. Bi th' weh, ye'r a kent.
I don't know and have no opinion.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Jumble » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:41 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Jumble wrote:
Sableagle wrote:To show they have no moral qualms about that, to show that nobody is safe. They are terrorists, after all. Which is the more terrifying thought, seeing a car coming charging at you with nowhere to jump to or seeing a car charging at your children with no way to save them?


Agreed. Only thing is, if you are stupid enough to die for a cause wouldn't it make sense to pick a cause with some form of moral anchor? I'm not much of a theologian but I've not seen a deity with a passable justification for murdering children.

Morality stems from God alone. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? Only God can judge, and it is by his will and for his glory that this war is fought. What must be done is done for the greater good.

Not my actual beliefs. Local charges may apply.

Fair point. However, having watched a child die, if that is what god thinks is required for his/her/it's cause then in my purely mortal opinion they can cram it up their arse. Sorry.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:27 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:Fair point. However, having watched a child die, if that is what god thinks is required for his/her/it's cause then in my purely mortal opinion they can cram it up their arse. Sorry.

Well, yeah. Comparing the observable world to the assertions in the Bible led me to the conclusion that this "God" character was the sort of person to whose head I'd like to take a cricket bat or, far more likely, fictional.
I don't know and have no opinion.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby hollow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:01 pm UTC

addams wrote:Off Topic:
Spoiler:
oh...The performance on Saturday was phenomenal!
The woman played ancient instruments.
Her name is Lauren Pilon.

She comes from the Mid-West of the U.S.
I can find Nothing about her on the Google Machine.

If any of you Can.
I'd be grateful for a link.

What she did was such Hard Work.
It must have been Exhausting!

In person, I could see how Strong she is.
The sinew between her muscles shows.

She is an expert in Musical History.
With a Focus on North America and Europe.

She is White.
We are often interested in ourselves and those like us.

Our Oun History. And; The history of our land.
Those 'White People' that came before us.

If any of You can find her On-Line and give me a link,
I'd be grateful.

Spoiler:
Lauren Pelon, perhaps?
http://home.earthlink.net/~laurenpelon/
You're not wrong, there isn't a lot of information I could find. Not even a music sample.


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