The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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Chen
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I desperately want it to be a protest against gender rules in professional sports.


Considering olympic and world records, I'm not sure how removing the segregation between men and women in many sports would be helping anything. Wikipedia has 93 men who've broken the 10 second barrier in 100 meter sprinting and not one woman has yet. Imagine you took all the money olympic organizations put into training for the women's sprinters and opened it up to instead of something like 10 men/10 women, the 20 best. You'd most likely not get any women on the team at all that way (assuming the overall statistics match your demographics, of course).

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:http://www.computerandvideogames.com/470146/finnish-hearthstone-tournament-bans-female-players/

eSports gaming tournament creates male and female divisions (and not of all the same games even) to promote eSports like they're "real" sports.

I want this desperately to be an Onion article gone viral...


Huh. Hearthstone isn't a game I could reasonably see any gender based advantage existing in. Just seems strange.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:13 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Huh. Hearthstone isn't a game I could reasonably see any gender based advantage existing in. Just seems strange.


Apparently the logic ("logic") is thus:

1. We want our eSports to be considered legitimate sports.

2. Current legitimate sports are gender-segregated.

3. Therefore, we must gender-segregate our eSports to help us appear legitimate.
Last edited by Djehutynakht on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:13 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:11 pm UTC

I guess this is what we get for creating a digital card game that gets played with one's genitals.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:44 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I desperately want it to be a protest against gender rules in professional sports.


Considering olympic and world records, I'm not sure how removing the segregation between men and women in many sports would be helping anything. Wikipedia has 93 men who've broken the 10 second barrier in 100 meter sprinting and not one woman has yet. Imagine you took all the money olympic organizations put into training for the women's sprinters and opened it up to instead of something like 10 men/10 women, the 20 best. You'd most likely not get any women on the team at all that way (assuming the overall statistics match your demographics, of course).


The gap between records varies a lot between sports ("men's" rowing is actually mixed, it's just that the only position on the boat women can usually match men is as a cox). There are certainly some which are currently segregated which could be opened up without too much trouble.

My biggest issue with gendered sport is that it tends to end up adding tons of barriers of entry to trans athletes and can make it impossible for intersex athletes to compete without the risk of being outed and stripped of their prizes.

If gendered sport is really about making it an even field, split it based on hormone levels or something. They're already checking for testosterone levels to stop doping, there's no reason they can't use that decide which division someone competes in.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby rath358 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

I can understand the reasoning behind separating genders in a gaming tournament
"Very few women attend or place well in our tournaments" -> "that's shitty, it would be nice if there could be representation among both genders" -> "maybe having a separate women's league will increase participation/visibility of women in gaming"
But it would have to be implemented carefully to not exclude women in a shitty way and avoid summoning a storm of butthurt that could overshadow the actual gaming. I don't know if that was the motivation behind this particular incident (and I'm not optimistic), but I suppose it is always possible.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:34 pm UTC

I'd rather make the Olympics desegregated. Can someone explain why segregation in sports is a good thing?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'd rather make the Olympics desegregated. Can someone explain why segregation in sports is a good thing?


In certain physical activites, there is an element of physical difference than is relevant at extreme levels of physical fitness. Say, running or something. It allows both genders to enjoy the competition, instead of only one.

Hearthstone is not much like this, though.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Vahir » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:27 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I'd rather make the Olympics desegregated. Can someone explain why segregation in sports is a good thing?


In certain physical activites, there is an element of physical difference than is relevant at extreme levels of physical fitness. Say, running or something. It allows both genders to enjoy the competition, instead of only one.

Hearthstone is not much like this, though.


If women can't physically be the best runners in the world, so be it. I mean, isn't the point of the Olympics to find the best athletes in the world, regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:46 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:[quote="Tyndmyr]
Huh. Hearthstone isn't a game I could reasonably see any gender based advantage existing in. Just seems strange.[/quote]

Apparently the logic ("logic") is thus:

1. We want our eSports to be considered legitimate sports.

2. Current legitimate sports are gender-segregated.

3. Therefore, we must gender-segregate our eSports to help us appear legitimate.[/quote]

In eSports and eGames gender switches with the users whim. Correct?
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Well...Maybe it is a Man's Sport. Women have things to do.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:37 am UTC

rath358 wrote:I can understand the reasoning behind separating genders in a gaming tournament
"Very few women attend or place well in our tournaments" -> "that's shitty, it would be nice if there could be representation among both genders" -> "maybe having a separate women's league will increase participation/visibility of women in gaming"
But it would have to be implemented carefully to not exclude women in a shitty way and avoid summoning a storm of butthurt that could overshadow the actual gaming. I don't know if that was the motivation behind this particular incident (and I'm not optimistic), but I suppose it is always possible.


I think that to that you should have an integrated tournament and a separate woman's tournament, rather than have a male-only tournament and not bother with the women's one.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Diadem » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:28 am UTC

Aren't most segregated sports already segregated like that? There are no rules forbidding women from participating in the "men's" competition, it is just that very few can. There are only a few sports where women can do as well as men.

In chess there are separate tournaments and championships for women, but all the best women (also) compete in the general competition. With some success, the highest ranking by a woman so far is #10 of the world. I would expect hearthstone to be much like chess, with the only reason women do worse than men being a sheer lack of numbers.

Segregating hearthstone into separate tournaments seems stupid and counterproductive, especially if women are disallowed from participating in the men's competing. If you want some special recognition for women, simply hand out extra prices for the highest ranked women in general tournaments.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:42 am UTC

cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Vahir » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:41 pm UTC

Diadem wrote: If you want some special recognition for women, simply hand out extra prices for the highest ranked women in general tournaments.


Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:59 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
Diadem wrote: If you want some special recognition for women, simply hand out extra prices for the highest ranked women in general tournaments.


Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!


Agreed. You cannot solve discrimination by additional discrimination. It just feels patronizing, and further creates a "you are different" atmosphere.

You fix the issue by removing existing discrimination, not by adding more.

Vahir wrote:If women can't physically be the best runners in the world, so be it. I mean, isn't the point of the Olympics to find the best athletes in the world, regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity?


God no. The point of the Olympics is a national pissing match.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:55 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!


Because it's not like there are other factors making it harder for women to get into the tournament than men! Affirmative action is just bigotry against white cis heterosexual males in disguise!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby krogoth » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:09 am UTC

yurell wrote:
Vahir wrote:Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!


Because it's not like there are other factors making it harder for women to get into the tournament than men! Affirmative action is just bigotry against white cis heterosexual males in disguise!


Actually race already does play a lot into maximum possible fitness, it is a form of micro evolution after all, if you are gonna segregate gender, might as well segregate height differences as well. Runners legs must be within 5 cm length of each other. Otherwise it discriminates against short people. Where does it end?

The reason I had heard they are doing it it to get more girl gamers into the sports in the first place, then they will cancel it once the numbers are more balanced and do mixed groups.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:19 am UTC

krogoth wrote:The reason I had heard they are doing it it to get more girl gamers into the sports in the first place, then they will cancel it once the numbers are more balanced and do mixed groups.


Indeed, which I agree with.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:44 am UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-28155072

An American woman fled from the US to the UK in 1998 to escape her abusive ex-husband, taking her children with her. She's now been extradited back to the US on charges of kidnapping.

A quote from one of the "victims" of the "kidnapping":

Her daughter Rebekah Van Sant, who also spoke to the BBC at the time, said: "I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but I just think it would be the end of her.

"I don't think she would be well enough at the start of that process, because she's really bad at the minute. She would need so much care, but she could be literally left sitting in a prison being neglected."

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:28 pm UTC

At first I was wondering why the ex-husband started proceedings so long after the fact. Apparently she was charged with "custodial interference" back 1995. How the hell does it take almost 20 years to extradite someone for something like this?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:46 pm UTC

krogoth wrote:
yurell wrote:
Vahir wrote:Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!


Because it's not like there are other factors making it harder for women to get into the tournament than men! Affirmative action is just bigotry against white cis heterosexual males in disguise!


Actually race already does play a lot into maximum possible fitness, it is a form of micro evolution after all, if you are gonna segregate gender, might as well segregate height differences as well. Runners legs must be within 5 cm length of each other. Otherwise it discriminates against short people. Where does it end?

The reason I had heard they are doing it it to get more girl gamers into the sports in the first place, then they will cancel it once the numbers are more balanced and do mixed groups.


*shrug* Weight classes and such are commonly seperated out in many sports. I have no issue with this, so long as it is relevant to performance. Race...this isn't so important...especially what is commonly meant when people say the word race...what they really mean is skin color or the like. My skin may be exactly the same shade as an amazing runner, but that doesn't mean I am(quite the contrary). Skin color is a particularly poor differentiator of performance.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Whizbang » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

Unless the performance is time in the sun without getting burned.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:Unless the performance is time in the sun without getting burned.


Granted, but I'm not aware of any contests that do specifically that. Probably would be unhealthy, in fact.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:48 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
krogoth wrote:
yurell wrote:
Vahir wrote:Let's end discrimination by handing out prizes based on gender!


Because it's not like there are other factors making it harder for women to get into the tournament than men! Affirmative action is just bigotry against white cis heterosexual males in disguise!


Actually race already does play a lot into maximum possible fitness, it is a form of micro evolution after all, if you are gonna segregate gender, might as well segregate height differences as well. Runners legs must be within 5 cm length of each other. Otherwise it discriminates against short people. Where does it end?

The reason I had heard they are doing it it to get more girl gamers into the sports in the first place, then they will cancel it once the numbers are more balanced and do mixed groups.


*shrug* Weight classes and such are commonly seperated out in many sports. I have no issue with this, so long as it is relevant to performance. Race...this isn't so important...especially what is commonly meant when people say the word race...what they really mean is skin color or the like. My skin may be exactly the same shade as an amazing runner, but that doesn't mean I am(quite the contrary). Skin color is a particularly poor differentiator of performance.

That's funny.
Blacks can run.
Asians can do math.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:09 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Whizbang wrote:Unless the performance is time in the sun without getting burned.

Granted, but I'm not aware of any contests that do specifically that. Probably would be unhealthy, in fact.

Probably not nearly as unhealthy than repeatedly hitting each other in the head until one of you keels over, but we call that a sport.

Anyway, race affects more than just skin color. Most Asians can't drink milk, for example. And there certainly seem to be racial differences in athletic ability. As of 2011, 76 people had run the 100 meters in less than 10 seconds, and 72 of those were African or of African descent. Giving that the 100 meter dash is a traditional western sport, that seems a highly significant result. This difference in athletic ability is even linked to specific subregion in Africa, and a specific protein (ACTN3). And while I haven't done any research in this direction, I'd expect East Asians to do worse are sports like basketball or volleyball because of their lack of height.

However, even if there are racial differences, they are certainly smaller than the difference between man and women. Also, while global sporting events are the best televised, the overwhelming majority of sporting evens are of course tiny local competitions or tournaments. Racial differences will be far less relevant for those, while gender differences are still very relevant.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:01 am UTC

The height difference between East Asians and Europeans is decreasing. Given how much this correlates with improvements in the diet of the average person, it seems like it was mostly a dietary effect rather than a racial one.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:07 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Whizbang wrote:Unless the performance is time in the sun without getting burned.

Granted, but I'm not aware of any contests that do specifically that. Probably would be unhealthy, in fact.

Probably not nearly as unhealthy than repeatedly hitting each other in the head until one of you keels over, but we call that a sport.


Granted. I get that I don't see the appeal, but sports usually at least attempt to have some degree of skill, so "resisting sunburn" is unlikely to be a big deal.

Anyway, race affects more than just skin color. Most Asians can't drink milk, for example. And there certainly seem to be racial differences in athletic ability. As of 2011, 76 people had run the 100 meters in less than 10 seconds, and 72 of those were African or of African descent. Giving that the 100 meter dash is a traditional western sport, that seems a highly significant result. This difference in athletic ability is even linked to specific subregion in Africa, and a specific protein (ACTN3). And while I haven't done any research in this direction, I'd expect East Asians to do worse are sports like basketball or volleyball because of their lack of height.


Racial differences, sure. But race has only a casual relationship with skin color, which is often what is meant by "race". It would be difficult to meaningfully seperate folks out into a distinct category without getting essentially garbage results.

Additionally, much of the Asian height difference comes down to nutritional factors. When they move to the US and start eating a western diet, their kids get much taller. And sometimes, fatter, but that's another issue altogether.


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:38 pm UTC

At my school, some boys found a hole that looks into the girls' locker room. One of them put his dick in it, only for the gym teacher to walk in and grab it. He barely managed to escape, but the teacher demanded that every boy be required to show his dick to her so she could identify who it was. She was laughed out.

Oh wait, that was Porky's.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:41 pm UTC

What the fracking frack?

Somehow I doubt that there's a validated technique for identifying erect penises.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Whizbang » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:02 pm UTC

That's what I keep telling my girlfriend*. They're all the same. What's there to complain about?


*I don't have a girlfriend. I have a wife, but that didn't seem to have the same comedic punch as a girlfriend.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:06 pm UTC



I'm against child pornography and all... but I don't even think this case really "counts" as such. Its two teenagers who are sexting each other. Yeah, that's "child pornography" by the technicality. But its not the kind that should be associated with years of incarceration.

EDIT: The official police response is as follows:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/loc ... ting-case/
It is not the policy of the Manassas City Police or the Commonwealth Attorney’s Office to authorize invasive search procedures of suspects in cases of this nature and no such procedures have been conducted in this case. Beyond that, neither the Police Department nor the Commonwealth’s Attorney’s Office discusses evidentiary matters prior to court hearings.


So, they're denying the search procedure entirely. I think this was the Police trying to strong-arm a guilty plea.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Diadem » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:11 pm UTC

Fighting child exploitation by forcing a child to undress in front of witnesses and performing sex acts on him. 'Wrong' doesn't begin to describe it.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Whizbang » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:15 pm UTC

You fight fire with fire and photos of child erections with photos of child erections. Duh.


This is Police 101 stuff here.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:16 pm UTC

It seems like the only person who wants prosecution is the girl's mother. Yeah, the kids were too young to legally consent to the pictures, but given the context, it really seems like all they ought to get is a slap on the wrist from the police, maybe a formal warning, and a lecture about what could happen if they do it again. Actually prosecuting, and getting this kid on the sex offender's register's absurd.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

excellent parenting, a+. like hey mom remember when you found out i had a boyfriend and you blew a gasket and destroyed his life?

that girl is one kid who is never going to talk to her mom about relationships (or probably any thing else important in her life) ever again.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
It is not the policy of the Manassas City Police or the Commonwealth Attorney’s Office to authorize invasive search procedures of suspects in cases of this nature and no such procedures have been conducted in this case. Beyond that, neither the Police Department nor the Commonwealth’s Attorney’s Office discusses evidentiary matters prior to court hearings.
So, they're denying the search procedure entirely. I think this was the Police trying to strong-arm a guilty plea.
In my reading from other sources, I got the impression that it was the prosecutor demanding the pictures be taken. So the police statement is just them saying "It wasn't us, it was that guy."
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yablo » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:You fight fire with fire and photos of child erections with photos of child erections. Duh.


This is Police 101 stuff here.


As horribly wrong as the situation is, I still find that comment hilariously funny.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:24 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:


I'm against child pornography and all... but I don't even think this case really "counts" as such. Its two teenagers who are sexting each other. Yeah, that's "child pornography" by the technicality. But its not the kind that should be associated with years of incarceration.


Yeah, to me that's the bigger issue. It shouldn't be possible to be charged with child pornography for taking a picture of yourself. Likewise, people who've had their boyfriend/girlfriend send them naked pics shouldn't be charged with possession either.

It would be a bit like attempting suicide then being charged with attempted murder (but I wouldn't be surprised if that's also happened somewhere).

elasto
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:55 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:At my school, some boys found a hole that looks into the girls' locker room. One of them put his dick in it, only for the gym teacher to walk in and grab it. He barely managed to escape, but the teacher demanded that every boy be required to show his dick to her so she could identify who it was. She was laughed out.

Oh wait, that was Porky's.

I must just be in a ticklish mood but I have to say I'm laughing every time I read this

Well played!


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