The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:39 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I'm obviously pro but I'm curious if this has further implications on homeless people. Will there be cases suing businesses for getting rid of homeless people who are looking for a safe haven from scorching heat or freezing cold? I sure hope so.


Very doubtful. In any case its probably not the random businesses that should be supporting these people but appropriate government run shelters anyways.

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CorruptUser
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:49 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Guards get a lot of things inmates don't. For example, in PA at least, inmates aren't allowed to smoke, yet guards are, and they hang out around inmates all the time.


Which means

1) Guards can make a bit of extra money smuggling in cigarettes, because let's face it, that's how the smuggling occurs
2) Inmates learn to associate not smoking with the not freedom that is living inside of prison, thus having an additional psychological reason to smoke

I'm obviously pro but I'm curious if this has further implications on homeless people. Will there be cases suing businesses for getting rid of homeless people who are looking for a safe haven from scorching heat or freezing cold? I sure hope so.


Care to elaborate? Do you mean, suing a business who kicks a homeless guy out of the warm shopping mall? I... don't get the impression that would end well for the homeless people no matter what the outcome of the case. If the homeless people lose, well, they lose. If they win, well, there are reasons why businesses don't like homeless people hanging around, most of those reasons being "it spooks the customers". So either a) the businesses lose customers and thus money, some closing shop or reducing the staff, or b) the businesses turn to the mafia to get rid of the homeless. Think that wouldn't happen? Definitely how it went in Providence during the Cianci years. It worked... in that the homeless went to Boston, which pissed off the Bostonians and the Fed got involved to put a stop to the patrols of well-dressed baseball enthusiasts.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby pogrmman » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, don't the guards need AC too? I don't know much about Texas prisons, but I can't imagine that the guards never patrol the halls.

This implies to me that the guards do get AC:
The Texas Tribune wrote:Texas has more than 100 prisons, and almost 75 percent of them don’t have air conditioning in the areas where inmates live

But, the injunction states that "TDCJ produced records evidencing heat-related illnesses suffered by hundreds of correctional officers," which suggests that they might not.


What really kills me is this:
Ken Paxton (TX Attorney General) wrote:The judge’s ruling downplays the substantial precautions TDCJ already has in place to protect inmates from the summer heat
but
The Texas Tribune wrote:The lawsuit points to 23 deaths and hundreds of illnesses related to heat in Texas prisons since 1998

Sure, Texas has over 100k people in prison, so it may seem like a small proportion, but it still kills me that the state doesn't want to get their act together to treat them more humanely. Even if you aren't medically in danger from the heat (it is possible to get used to it to some degree), it's still quite cruel to not give them much relief. Sure, it is a pretty significant expense for the state (the article I linked to earlier suggests that it'll be about $500k to install and $100k to run every year), but it does seem like that not providing it could be classified as "cruel and unusual punishment." Also, the state has spent over $2 million trying to fight this lawsuit...

Sure, it's good that they are allowed unlimited ice water, cold showers, and personal fans -- those can help to a pretty decent degree, but they aren't nearly as effective as AC. Apparently, you aren't supposed to use a fan when the heat index is over 95 degrees (this comes as a surprise to me), which happens most days in the summer. According to the injunction, even with these measures, around 100 heat illness are still reported every year in prisons across the state (and they are underreported).

I, too, wonder if this will have implications for the homeless. Texas does have a pretty substantial homeless population (as the winters aren't that bad compared to most other states). There have been heat related deaths in the state in every month but January. I'm not sure how many homeless deaths are exacerbated by the heat.

EDIT: Also, the fact that this prison in particular lacks window screens is not good. Texas has large populations of mosquitoes that can spread dengue, chikungunya, and zika. Not to mention assassin bugs that do carry chagas' disease and mosquitoes that carry west nile. One of the biggest contributors to dengue (and presumably other insect-borne illness) outbrakes is a lack of screens on windows. There's also evidence that there is at least some low-level dengue transmission in parts of Texas (Houston).

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:17 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:Apparently, you aren't supposed to use a fan when the heat index is over 95 degrees (this comes as a surprise to me)
Fans (alone) just move air around. It may increase the rate of sweat evaporation if you can move more dry air in quicker, to some degree, but windchill with isn't solving things with a mere waft of air.

And as you get to air that is approaching body temperature, especially if you are blowing air that is warmer than the body, it just 'roasts' it more. Our body is exothermic, by design and probably universal truths. Just as it's bad if the core body temperature gets hypothermically cooled due to too much heat-leaching into the environment, too little heat-leaching (or, beyond 98.6°F/37°C, thermodynamics and the lack of a Maxwell's demon handily at work reversing normal expectations) isn't good for us either.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Ginger » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:20 pm UTC

I don't wanna derail the discussion yet... it has: Homelessness in it. And Texas. Nothing to do otherwise though so love it or leave it?

Texas' homeless youth slip through cracks of disjointed support system, new report says

Actually, it's kind of positive? So... I should find a darker article about homelessness hold on. I erase old one and post a new one. When Women Must Choose Between Abuse And Homelessness another one (not relate to Texas).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 pm UTC

Auto-playing video of ISIS guy singing badly in the page, so text reproduced.

Turkey accused of recruiting ex-Isis fighters in their thousands to attack Kurds in Syria

Spoiler:
Turkey is recruiting and retraining Isis fighters to lead its invasion of the Kurdish enclave of Afrin in northern Syria, according to an ex-Isis source.

“Most of those who are fighting in Afrin against the YPG [People’s Protection Units] are Isis, though Turkey has trained them to change their assault tactics,” said Faraj, a former Isis fighter from north-east Syria who remains in close touch with the jihadi movement.

In a phone interview with The Independent, he added: “Turkey at the beginning of its operation tried to delude people by saying that it is fighting Isis, but actually they are training Isis members and sending them to Afrin.”

An estimated 6,000 Turkish troops and 10,000 Free Syrian Army (FSA) militia crossed into Syria on 20 January, pledging to drive the YPG out of Afrin.

The attack was led by the FSA, which is a largely defunct umbrella grouping of non-Jihadi Syrian rebels once backed by the West. Now, most of its fighters taking part in Turkey’s “Operation Olive Branch” were, until recently, members of Isis.

Some of the FSA troops advancing into Afrin are surprisingly open about their allegiance to al-Qaeda and its offshoots. A video posted online shows three uniformed jihadis singing a song in praise of their past battles and “how we were steadfast in Grozny (Chechnya) and Dagestan (north Caucasus). And we took Tora Bora (the former headquarters of Osama bin Laden). And now Afrin is calling to us".

Isis suffered heavy defeats last year, losing Mosul in Iraq after a siege of nine months and Raqqa in Syria after a four-month siege. The caliphate, declared by its leader Abu Baqr al-Baghdadi in 2014, was destroyed, and most of its experienced commanders and fighters were killed or dispersed.

But it has shown signs of trying to revive itself in Syria and Iraq over the last two months, assassinating local opponents and launching guerrilla attacks in out-of-the-way and poorly defended places.


Isis fighters are joining the FSA and Turkish-army invasion force because they are put under pressure by the Turkish authorities. From the point of view of Turkey, the recruitment of former Isis combatants means that it can draw on a large pool of professional and experienced soldiers. Another advantage is that they are not Turks, so if they suffer serious casualties this will do no damage to the Turkish government.

Spoiler:
Isis and Turkey are seeking to use each other for their own purposes. Faraj, 32, an Arab from the mixed Kurdish-Arab province of Hasakah in north-east Syria, says that he does not like the YPG, but he is suspicious of Turkey and believes that it is trying manipulate Isis. “Turkey treats Isis like toilet tissues,” he says. “After use they will be thrown away.”

Turkey is evidently aware that using Isis fighters as the spearhead for the assault on Afrin, even if they relabelled as FSA, is likely to attract international criticism.

Faraj says that Turkish commanders have discouraged Isis from using their traditional tactics of extensive use of suicide bombers and car bombs at Afrin because this would make the Isis-Turkish cooperation too blatant.

He says that the FSA men are “professional in planning car-bomb attacks as they have experience before with Isis in Raqqa and Mosul”.


But he cites Turkish officers as discouraging such identifiable tactics, quoting one as telling an FSA group in training that “we leave the suicide attacks for the YPG and the PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ Party which carries on guerrilla warfare in Turkey), so that the world will be convinced that they are terrorists”.

Spoiler:
Turkey has had an ambivalent relationship with jihadi groups since the start of the Syrian civil war in 2011. At first, it allowed foreign jihadi fighters and military supplies to cross into Syria, though this tolerance ebbed after the fall of Mosul in June 2014.

Nevertheless, Ankara made clear by its actions during the siege of the Kurdish city of Kobani that it would have preferred victory to go to Isis rather than the YPG.

As the YPG advanced after Kobani with the support of US air power, Turkey’s priority became to reverse the creation of a de facto Kurdish state in Syria under US military protection.

The US is in a particularly difficult position. It was the YPG who provided the ground troops who, backed by US air strikes, have defeated Isis in many battles.

Without them there would have been no victory over Isis as was claimed by President Trump in his State of the Union message. But the YPG is now facing some of the same Isis fighters in Afrin with whom it fought over the past four years. It will not look good if the US abandons its proven Kurdish allies because it does not want a confrontation with Turkey.

Such a confrontation could be just around the corner. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened at the weekend to expand the Turkish invasion to include the Arab town of Manbij, captured from Isis by the YPG in 2016 after a long siege. He said that the Americans “tell us, ‘Don’t come to Manbij.’ We will come to Manbij to handover these territories to their rightful owners.”


A reminder.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:58 pm UTC

Can we also include Pontic, Assyrians and Greek (non-Pontic) genocides that Turkey committed? And the ongoing slow genocide of the Kurds, or should I say "mountain turks"?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:16 pm UTC

We must be careful going back in history like that. If we go all the way back to the first Caliphate just to include Thermopylae, we have to admit to some utter insanity and some rather unsavoury misbehaviour, to put it ridiculously mildly, by ...
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm UTC

Uh... YOU brought up the Armenian genocide. Those other genocides occurred at the same time.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

Were they in the same place, though?

Image

Image

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Afr ... 3891?dcr=0

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Afr ... 3891?dcr=0

Odds they're planning to bite off from al-Rai (ar-raa'iy) to al-Dana (ad-daanaa) and add that land to "Turkey" by ... what's the phrase, "altering the facts on the ground," aka covering it in their own people?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:46 pm UTC

Yes, or close enough to be a yes. Same country, roughly same time, mostly in central or eastern Turkey. Pontics notably on the black sea shore, Assyrians in the south.

Maybe spend the 2 minutes to read the summary on Wikipedia instead of trying to grasp at every possible straw?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:06 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:We must be careful going back in history like that. If we go all the way back to the first Caliphate just to include Thermopylae ...

I must say that this seems like an odd counter to a list including
CorruptUser wrote:And the ongoing slow genocide of the Kurds, or should I say "mountain turks"?


Sableagle wrote:Auto-playing video of ISIS guy singing badly in the page


FYI, you can modify chrome so the default page setting disables sounds.

On chrome://flags/ enable "Sound content setting"
restart your browser.
On chrome://settings/content/sound click toggle for "blocked".
Websites can no longer play sound unless you enable it in site specific settings (this comes up if you click on the site security info just to the right of the refresh button)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:06 pm UTC

idonno wrote:FYI, you can modify chrome ...
... so that Google don't know all about every website I visit and all my passwords?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:27 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
idonno wrote:FYI, you can modify chrome ...
... so that Google don't know all about every website I visit and all my passwords?

I have't tested it on iron browser but there is a good chance it works there as well

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:29 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:just to include Thermopylae
But no one included Thermopylae...
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby heuristically_alone » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:14 am UTC

Bow gifted by adnapemit.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:51 am UTC

Anyone else remember the days when school shootings were so rare we'd talk about one for entire weeks before the next one came along?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 am UTC

I remember when school shootings in other states would result in a change to our school policy.

I don't think it became easier for kids to get their hands on guns, I think the reason for the extra school shootings is all the extra coverage due to modern media. There is a sort of immortality through immorality, with a word named for the guy who intentionally destroyed one of the Seven Wonders of the World specifically so that he would be remembered to this day and thus why I don't like using the word. That's what a lot of these killers are after, not to kill as many people as possible, but to be remembered for killing so many people. You want to cut down on the mass shootings? Don't show the murderers faces on tv.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:44 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I don't think it became easier for kids to get their hands on guns, I think the reason for the extra school shootings is all the extra coverage due to modern media. There is a sort of immortality through immorality, with a word named for the guy who intentionally destroyed one of the Seven Wonders of the World specifically so that he would be remembered to this day and thus why I don't like using the word. That's what a lot of these killers are after, not to kill as many people as possible, but to be remembered for killing so many people. You want to cut down on the mass shootings? Don't show the murderers faces on tv.

Many psychologists agree on this point. However we live in an online world - there'd always be someone somewhere who'd be willing to post the pics and videos.

If the major networks ever came to an agreement not to show or say anything, that'd just make it a much more valuable proposition to whatever clickbait news-site did :(

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yablo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:58 pm UTC

One major part of the key is to report the tragedy without sensationalizing or even glorifying the act. The major news media could do a little to help, but they could never do enough to remove the inspiration for anyone who might otherwise be inclined to do something similar.

Specifically regarding school shootings, the major news outlets aren't going to be able to do much of anything to stop them. Even by demonizing the act, not glorifying the shooter, playing up the tragedy to epic levels (which is not to say the tragedy isn't already at an epic level), etc ... Word will spread through social media which is where many of these potential school shooters are going to get their encouragement and inspiration.

You can't fix society by forcing people to be better parents or children. Learning to better identify these potential situations and shooters in advance will help a lot, but ultimately, we need to do a much better job as a nation of providing adequate mental health care. We also need to do a much better job of treating people like humans. I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me a lot of the violence and tragedy could be avoided or mitigated simply by being better people.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:07 pm UTC

btw the latest shooter was a member of a white supremacist group that trained him in paramilitary drills i'm still waiting for the republican condemnation of white supremacist terrorism.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:08 pm UTC

natraj wrote:btw the latest shooter was a member of a white supremacist group that trained him in paramilitary drills i'm still waiting for the republican condemnation of white supremacist terrorism.


Don't hold your breath, you'll be waiting until the end of time.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:00 am UTC

Yablo wrote: I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me a lot of the violence and tragedy could be avoided or mitigated simply by being better people.
Amen, Yablo.
A little more kindness and less stupid reality shows on media might be a step in the correct direction, too.

Spoiler:
And; A lot more people like you teaching others to be Talented.
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oops...poor use of the word 'deadline.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:57 pm UTC

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... ord-online
Russians are purposely instigating conflict in the aftermath of the Florida school shooting. They are hoping to get liberals and conservatives to fight each other.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:38 pm UTC

Carcinogen Wars, Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.
Defend Avaaz against Monsanto

We've just been hit with a 168-page court subpoena from Monsanto.

We have only days to respond, and it "commands" us to hand over every private email, note, or record we have regarding Monsanto, including the names and email addresses of Avaazers who have signed Monsanto campaigns!!

This is big. They're a $50 billion mega-corporation, infamous for legal strong-arm tactics like this. They have unlimited resources. If they get their hands on all our private information, there's no telling what they'll use it for.

We urgently need to hire outstanding lawyers to go up against Monsanto's best. Just fighting this subpoena will be costly, and it could be just the beginning.

We don't know Monsanto's plan, but we know one reason why this is coming -- Avaaz has repeatedly beaten Monsanto in huge regulatory battles, including blocking the long-term relicensing of glyphosate, the herbicide that is the cornerstone of their chemical empire. We're winning. So they're changing the game.

The subpoena indicates that Monsanto needs all our private information to fight class-action lawsuits against them claiming that their glyphosate caused people's cancer. If that seems absurd to you, you're not alone. But they've gotten the authority of a US court behind them, and we urgently need the best lawyers behind us.


That's creepy.

I actually didn't sign their anti-glyphosate petition, because so far it's the only thing we've got that works on giant hogweed and isn't Agent Orange. I'm not sure that stuff would survive a nuke, either, but ... The research indicated that swallowing large amounts of glyphosate could cause a small increase in the risk of getting some cancers. I'm well aware that humans skip safety precautions for themselves and for others all the time, but getting rid of that weed is a safety precaution, and banning the only means of doing so because they can't trust us to take safety precautions while using it seems wrong somehow. It's like banning mosquito nets in Cambodia because the nets come in plastic bags and we can't be trusted to keep those plastic bags away from curious babies.

Anyway, that aside, Monsanto wanting to stalk everyone? Creepy.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:19 pm UTC

Is avaaz the company that sued Monsanto for excessive litigation against farmers for accidental pollination, but then had to drop the charges when they couldn't find one single case of that happening?

Anyway, glyphosate most likely doesn't cause cancer, or at least is no more carcinogenic than bananas; the formulations with glyphosate may be, but that's like blaming the di-hydro monoxide in beer for liver failure. The LD50 of the stuff is actually rather high, about on the same order as ethanol in rats, and 50mg/kg per day had no detectable effects on rabbits. But this is irrelevant for the simple reason that the stuff doesn't actually end up on your food, and it binds to soil so it doesn't end up in your water unless the soil itself washes off, in which case you have far more dangerous chemicals to worry about. It's only chosen as a target by environmentalists due to the interwoven history with GMOs.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:01 am UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/16/586361956/as-an-american-tragedy-unfolds-russian-agents-sow-discord-online
Russians are purposely instigating conflict in the aftermath of the Florida school shooting. They are hoping to get liberals and conservatives to fight each other.
This is a Big Deal.
We are so very willing to turn on one another.

They understand us all too well.
We have a paralyzing if not potentially lethal case of Dunning–Kruger effect.

People that don't know Jack Shit are extraordinarily confident.
Confident to the point of frightening aggressiveness.

People that DO know and CAN understand,
Tend to be soft spoken and take time to think.

Deep Thought is not a characteristic of U.S. discourse.
Therefore; We will gladly kick our own Asses for them.

This is a Big Deal.
The U.S. is having its Ass Kicked.

We are in a War.
We are the losers.

I cross my fingers that other democratic states are able to take a stand.
This one has been deeply wounded.
Spoiler:
I may not be as bright as I once was.
Yet; Even I can see Dunning–Kruger effect at work.

This is Not Dunning–Kruger effect.
It is a glimpse at a part of the problem.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 am UTC

Six-year-old Alfie Dingley, from Kenilworth in Warwickshire, suffers up to 30 violent seizures a day. His parents want to treat him with medical cannabis oil, which is illegal in the UK.

In September, Alfie went to the Netherlands to take a cannabis-based medication. The medication, which was prescribed by a paediatric neurologist, saw his seizures reduce in number, duration and severity.

Members of the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) on drug policy reform have now called on the Home Secretary Amber Rudd to issue a licence for Alfie to continue taking the medication, which he is currently not permitted to have in the UK.

Alfie's grandmother Maggie said the treatment in the Netherlands meant "Alfie has gone from a death sentence to the prospect of a more normal life with school, friends and fun, in his own familiar home".

At one point Alfie had 3,000 seizures and 48 hospital visits in a year.

His seizures, which can number up to 20 or 30 a day, can gradually be controlled in UK hospitals, but over time it is likely he would be institutionalised. With the Dutch cannabis medication, it is estimated that Alfie would have about 20 seizures a year.
A Home Office spokesperson said: "Cannabis is listed as a Schedule 1 drug, as in its raw form it is not recognised in the UK as having any medicinal benefit and is therefore subject to strict control restrictions.

"The Home Office would not issue a licence to enable the personal consumption of a Schedule 1 drug'."


Our country is advanced in some ways but on the issue of drugs it is even more backward than the US, which is certainly saying something.

The Daily Mail and the politicians who pander to such trash have a lot to answer for.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

It's a question of respect for human life. This is a case where denying the license shows utter disrespect for human life.

But respect for human life is what makes freedom viable in the first place. Given freedom, we count on each other to respect human life and to use that freedom responsibly. The schools shootings across the pond from you are another symptom of the lack of respect for human life, and the response is the same - calls for authority figures to restrict freedoms.

The very call to authoritarianism is a symptom of the lack of respect for human life ("compassion", it's sometimes called). I don't have an answer, but it's important to understand the question, as that may lead to insight.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:48 pm UTC

I don't understand the parallel.

An eighteen year old with a Bong;
Is Not the same as an eighteen year old with a Military Rifle.

Bong Boy is an irritation.
Rifle Man is a deadly mess.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:18 pm UTC

A boy with a gun is not a deadly mess if the boy has respect for life. In pioneer days, twelve year olds would have guns; hunting was a necessity. It was the grownups with guns that were the problem.

If you could wave a wand and have one of two outcomes, which would you pick:

People could kill easily, but didn't want to, or
People wanted to kill, but couldn't.
?

Oh, and the eighteen year old with the bong isn't the problem - it's the lawmaker saying he can't have it to save his life who is the problem. That's a deadly problem. And that's the parallel.

Jose
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby heuristically_alone » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

ucim wrote:If you could wave a wand and have one of two outcomes, which would you pick:

People could kill easily, but didn't want to, or
People wanted to kill, but couldn't.
?
Jose


If the outcome is the same, it really shouldn't matter. Though I think I'd rather be around people that didn't want to kill rather than those that did.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:56 am UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:If the outcome is the same, it really shouldn't matter. Though I think I'd rather be around people that didn't want to kill rather than those that did.
The outcome is not the same, as you point out in your second sentence. And that's the point.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby heuristically_alone » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:07 am UTC

The outcome on both is that people aren't killing anybody.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:09 am UTC

That's not the only outcome. Life is complicated.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby heuristically_alone » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:20 am UTC

That's why we need more magic wands
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:13 am UTC

ucim wrote:A boy with a gun is not a deadly mess if the boy has respect for life. In pioneer days, twelve year olds would have guns; hunting was a necessity. It was the grownups with guns that were the problem.

If you could wave a wand and have one of two outcomes, which would you pick:

People could kill easily, but didn't want to, or
People wanted to kill, but couldn't.
?

Oh, and the eighteen year old with the bong isn't the problem - it's the lawmaker saying he can't have it to save his life who is the problem. That's a deadly problem. And that's the parallel.

Jose


How easily are we talking? Is it the equivalent of everyone and their mom having a nuclear bomb but absolutely everyone is a pacifist, vs everyone is a a psychopath but the guns are all made by Nerf?

Ideally, I'd go with making everyone less violent than making everything safer. Because eventually, I want the world with interstellar spaceships, and if you think people intentionally ramming trucks into crowds was bad...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:50 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How easily are we talking? Is it the equivalent of everyone and their mom having a nuclear bomb but absolutely everyone is a pacifist, vs everyone is a a psychopath but the guns are all made by Nerf?
It's a thought experiment; the wands are still tied up in a crowdfunding dispute. But for purposes of thought, yes. If those were the parameters, which would you choose?

I'd choose better people over firmer control. Better people improve things all around, firmer control doesn't.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Dauric » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:45 am UTC

Query:

How does gun crime (or crime in general for that matter) compare to "life respecting" policies?

Is it conceivable that all those countries held up as paragons of gun-controlled culture aren't so because of restrictive gun control, but because they have a policy environment that reduces the desire to kill one another? That the reduced 'fear and loathing' of one's fellow man makes gun control more palatable to the public as they see less need to defend themselves from their fellow citizen?

If we removed public social and economic supports from those countries like public healthcare or social safety nets, would there be a rise in illegal weapons smuggling, metal-shops doing a brisk business in illegal weapons manufacturing, or general garage manufacture of improvised killing devices?

Probably difficult to quantify, and I'm not good at statistics so I'd probably muck it up if I tried.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:48 am UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:The outcome on both is that people aren't killing anybody.

I can't agree.

I remember a news show here in Central Florida in which they reported three murders. One person had committed murder by stabbing the victim to death. The second person had committed murder my running over the victim with a car. The third victim had been shot. Three victims, same day, different weapons, all apparently first-degree murder.

It was at that point that one of the newscasters astounded me by saying, "Something has got to be done about these guns!" Thereby spouting a belief that guns are the only deadly weapon, not supported by his own broadcast just ended, in which 33% of murders were gun crimes.

I have to agree with something I saw in a documentary one time, that the United States is a society in which a significant number of people think that they can get what they want by committing murder. Guns are a convenient way of committing murder, but far from the only way. Take away the guns, and you will still have murders.

So, given a choice, I would far prefer: "People could kill easily, but didn't want to."

Add: It is always easy to commit murder. (It's getting away with it that's hard.)
In all fairness...


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