The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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Quercus
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:31 am UTC

Link wrote:Or -- hear me out here -- whatever alleged "crimes" they may or may not be guilty of shouldn't even factor into this, because it's no way to treat human beings, period.

Agreed, although I do think that it is important to establish that these people aren't criminals, because arguably there is no cause to detain them *at all*. The UK gives asylum seekers £5 a day, (very) basic accommodation and access to NHS medical services. I still regard this as insufficient, but it's utterly magnanimous compared to what the US is doing, and it's something that the US could easily afford to do.

addams wrote:Quercus;
Your link didn't work


Fixed. Was trying to remove Google's hideous AMP stuff from the link and didn't do it quite right.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Link » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:13 am UTC

Quercus wrote:
Agreed, although I do think that it is important to establish that these people aren't criminals, because arguably there is no cause to detain them *at all*.

Very true. And any set of laws that does categorically label entire families as criminals just for seeking asylum is utterly fucked. Which is why my blood starts to boil the moment someone posts something even vaguely along the lines of "bUt THei'RE KRIMnELs!". It's just patently bullshit by international law, and even if it weren't, it would still be bullshit by any reasonable moral standard.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:22 am UTC

The sound of Blood Boiling gives me hope.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:42 am UTC

I thnk we all agree that 1) people shouldnt be tortured or forced into unhygienic and thus deadly conditions, and 2) these detention centers keep people in conditions thatd wouldnt even be allowed for most prisons.

That said, genuinely curious; what prevents unauthorized immigrants from abusing the asylum process?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:01 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That said, genuinely curious; what prevents unauthorized immigrants from abusing the asylum process?


Generally asylum seekers aren't allowed to work, and those whose asylum claims are rejected are subject to deportation. For someone without a genuine reason to claim asylum increased levels of monitoring and possible detention with no prospect of long-term benefit is not an attractive proposition - basically asylum seekers have it worse than undocumented migrants up until the point that their claims are accepted. The only reason to become an asylum seeker is if you genuinely believe that you should be granted asylum, in which case you'll put up with it for a while in order to be allowed to stay indefinitely later.

This of course is quite aside from the current situation in the US in which conditions are made so inhumane as to deliberately discourage anybody from seeking asylum.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:02 am UTC

Yet; Starving, then being raped by Police, Army or Gang Members, watching while your husband or brother is Murdered
then having the threat of you and your children killed will make most all other options look like the 'right' thing to do.

For some reason, when under extreme stress most humans will choose action of some kind.
The 'Fight or Flight' reactions set in. A GrandMother alone with the babies will 'Run'.

We all know the stories.
Mothers telling their sons to 'Go!' by Mums that love them.
Fathers Going in the hope that he may live to send money.

Girls sent by their families in the hope they may simply live.
Many of these people have been traumatized. We can care.

Where have we heard stories like this?
There are good reasons for international laws.

Maybe, someday the Feds will do the 'right' thing.
Until then, we can comfort ourselves in knowing individual towns with individual citizens Are doing the 'right' thing.
The people in those towns are working hard and we all owe them gratitude. They prove we are Not all AssHoles.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:48 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That said, genuinely curious; what prevents unauthorized immigrants from abusing the asylum process?


Generally asylum seekers aren't allowed to work, and those whose asylum claims are rejected are subject to deportation. For someone without a genuine reason to claim asylum increased levels of monitoring and possible detention with no prospect of long-term benefit is not an attractive proposition - basically asylum seekers have it worse than undocumented migrants up until the point that their claims are accepted. The only reason to become an asylum seeker is if you genuinely believe that you should be granted asylum, in which case you'll put up with it for a while in order to be allowed to stay indefinitely later.


Ok, last question. Can an unauthorized immigrant claim asylum while being arrested/deported?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:22 pm UTC

they have to claim it fast or it's too late. As for your provacative suggestion, Fox news already claim them brown people are doing that. Asylum seekers are either in US concentration camps, or being traffic & abused in Mexico refuge camps.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us ... sylum.html
As for the past, you overrate the successfulness of asylum claims.

If you are eligible for asylum you may be permitted to remain in the United States. To apply for Asylum, file a Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, within one year of your arrival to the United States. There is no fee to apply for asylum.
Proving that you truly fit the grounds for eligibility, and aren't just making up a story, requires a lot of preparation and effort. It's not uncommon for attorneys to submit a packet of materials that is at least one inch thick, and to help the client write a summary of his or her story that is several pages long.


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:41 am UTC

Alright, my opinion has somewhat changed on the matter. Fuck putting them in detention centers, and fuck making the detention centers worse than prisons.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:31 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Alright, my opinion has somewhat changed on the matter. Fuck putting them in detention centers, and fuck making the detention centers worse than prisons.
*hug* (welcome home)
It's not easy over here on this side of the issue.
You may find yourself crying in sadness and frustration.

So...you are going to need a *hug* from time to time.
From your humane position *hugs* will be fairly easy to find.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:43 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
solune wrote:At this point, I find that hinting even in passing that the pilots might have been partially responsible for this is giving too much credit to Boeing.
They made a bad hardware. They tried to fix it with a bad software. They tried to fix that with a user manual. This kind of mentality needs to stop.


The fault lies entirely with Boeing but what I wrote is still correct. The mitigation they had for a single failure leading to a hazardous aircraft condition was that the pilots could override it. This is an acceptable mitigation...IF YOU TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT. That the pilots should have recognized this new failure mode and used an existing emergency procedure to counter-act it (treat it as a runaway trim scenario) is ridiculous without any training or information TELLING the pilots about this new feature.

Had this been declared to pilots and the appropriate training mandated, it still wouldn't have been a optimal system (IMO but to be fair I don't know all their fault trees), but it would have met appropriate safety guidelines.

The fact this new plane didn't need new training was one of the reasons it was bought.

This is a 1967 airplane design with hacks. It is a 1967 airplane because so long as they can pretend it is the same airplane, you don't have to do recertification/get training to fly it. This makes it cheap for airlines to purchase, and use their existing set of expert 737 pilots on it.

50 years of improved technology is stapled onto the 1967 design in order to give it the performance characteristics it needs to compete.

But the performance characteristics it needs needed bigger engines. Which require wing redesign and higher ground clearance, or just shove them up higher and add a hack to deal with the fact that the thrust is now in a crazy-ass spot that can lead to sudden stalls.

Thus the hack; because the airplane can go from seemingly normal flight to an unrecoverable stall, they added in a hack that makes it FORCE THE NOSE DOWN before the unrecoverable stall point is reached. This is because the airplane flies fundamentally different than any 737, and they are pretending that it can be flown by a 737 pilot.

But then they only have one sensor for the FORCE THE NOSE DOWN action, they strip the "sensor malfunction" light out of the base kit to see as an add-on (it is a military grade sensor!), and they state that as a 737 pilots don't need any new training about any new failure modes.

And planes drop out of the sky.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Alright, my opinion has somewhat changed on the matter. Fuck putting them in detention centers, and fuck making the detention centers worse than prisons.


Any treatment that is too poor to justify giving to convicted murderers is too poor to justify giving to anybody.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:51 pm UTC

Yes, it would be nice if our overall philosophy of incarceration were about public safety and individual rehabilitation, rather than about intimidating everyone else into being law-abiding. (I.e., deliberately making incarceration more horrible, in the hopes that it will be a deterrent to anyone considering actions that society wants to discourage). It's not even about punishing a particular person for a particular crime--it's about demonstrating the power of the government to screw up someone's life, so that others will fear that power, and will stay in line.

But in the case of the mistreatment of immigrants in detention, the increasing number of people who are still coming to the United States for refuge indicates that the Trump Administration's message of "don't come or we'll subject you and your kids to atrocities" is not being communicated effectively to the populations that these atrocities are supposed to deter.

Which makes me suspect that the "but this harsh treatment is intended as a deterrent" excuse is bogus, and the people committing atrocities on the vulnerable just enjoy committing atrocities on the vulnerable.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:02 pm UTC

just enjoy the power trip of committing atrocities on the vulnerable
(sniff...) People that knew him knew he was like that.
They also knew he was attracted to others that share the same personality flaw.

MaMa Bear; You may be able to write up a Post with citations about how quickly the numbers of Border Patrol Officers grew.
You would do this to make the point that Border Patrol is full! of undereducated, unsupported, inexperienced people.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:49 pm UTC

It turns out that Texas has laws concerning child-care facilities. I wonder whether those apply to places the parents have no choice about the children being how they're going to try to pretend those laws don't apply.

https://childcareta.acf.hhs.gov/sites/d ... il2017.pdf

TexasChildcare.png


There's some interesting reading about beds and hand-washing and medicines and the like.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:02 pm UTC

I suspect that the Administration will argue that, as illegal entrants, they have no rights, much as how the George W. Bush Administration claimed that captured terrorists were “unlawful combatants” and therefore not entitled to any rights.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:22 pm UTC

I'm a little hesitant to post a link to this video and website, because it is not clear to me who is really behind it. The list of sponsors at the website seem like awfully small groups to be able to afford this kind of slick promotional video. I wonder who's really funding this.

But the July 12 Lights for Liberty events may be of interest to many here, anyway, and I might show up for the one that is local to me, despite my misgivings. Or at least light a candle outside my home at 9pm, to be part of the "silent sea of candles."

Spoiler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd1V7iv1bKY

http://www.lightsforliberty.org

● On July 12th, Lights for Liberty will shine a light on the horrific abuses of the Trump administration in human detention camps. People will begin arriving at 7pm local time at locations around the nation. At five main locations, legislators, activists, and organizers will speak until 9pm. At 9pm local time, at every detention camp, and in cities, towns, and homes around America, a silent sea of candles will light up the nation.
○ El Paso, TX: where migrants are being housed under a bridge with no running water for months at a time
○ Homestead, FL: migrant child detention facility that has caused mass abuse and neglect
○ San Diego, CA: near the point of entry site from Tijuana
○ New York City (Foley Square) NY: where hundreds of migrants are processed through detention a day
○ Washington, DC (in front of the Capitol building): to demand action from Congress to end human detention and impeach the President.

● The U.S. government is perpetrating unconscionable atrocities upon legal asylum-seekers at sites all around the country:
○ teen mothers and babies held outdoors in “dog pounds”
○ sick and elderly confined to “icebox” rooms for weeks at a time
○ medicine confiscated and medical care withheld
○ children as young as 4 months taken from their parents.
○ LGBTQ and disabled individuals held in solitary confinement

● Refugees are beginning to be moved onto military grounds, where there will be a complete lack of oversight from the media, lawyers, human rights monitors, even drone flyovers.

● Lights for Liberty is being developed in alliance with communities most impacted by the abuse of our immigration system. We’re striving to work in solidarity with grassroots organizations both new and historic, those who are well-funded and those who are on a shoe-string budget.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:27 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:It turns out that Texas has laws concerning child-care facilities. I wonder whether those apply to places the parents have no choice about the children being how they're going to try to pretend those laws don't apply.

https://childcareta.acf.hhs.gov/sites/d ... il2017.pdf

TexasChildcare.png

There's some interesting reading about beds and hand-washing and medicines and the like.

I am not a lawyer but I suspect Texas may not have the legal jurisdiction to enforce those requirements on a federal detention facility.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:56 pm UTC

As a general rule, states don't have jurisdiction over federal anything. Next time you see a mail truck, look for the license plate: they don't have them.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:27 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:As a general rule, state's don't have jurisdiction over federal anything. Next time you see a mail truck, look for the license plate: they don't have them.
Oh! So, interesting.
I learned a new thing, again, today.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:26 am UTC

Does that also imply that drivers of mail trucks and similarly un-plated vehicles are exempt from moving violations as well, even while driving recklessly?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:44 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Does that also imply that drivers of mail trucks and similarly un-plated vehicles are exempt from moving violations as well, even while driving recklessly?
Even if they are, driving well must be a condition of employment.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KittenKaboodle » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:54 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Does that also imply that drivers of mail trucks and similarly un-plated vehicles are exempt from moving violations as well, even while driving recklessly?


I would suppose if the drivers were property of the federal government they might be, but there is that pesky 13th amendment.

A more interesting question would be in the case of an autonomous mail truck, if, say, one was injured by one would one have to sue in federal court, or in the jurisdiction in which the injury was sustained?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:12 am UTC

KittenKaboodle wrote:A more interesting question would be in the case of an autonomous mail truck, if, say, one was injured by one would one have to sue in federal court, or in the jurisdiction in which the injury was sustained?


Hasty Google result:

If you have an accident with a mail carrier you will be dealing with the Federal Tort Claims Act. Under this Act, you will not be suing the individual driver of the mail truck or even the United States Postal Service. Instead, you will be suing the United States.

https://www.abrahamwatkins.com/blog/201 ... i-do.shtml


If that's how accidents with human drivers are litigated, I think accidents with autonomous vehicles would be handled the same way. (Not that the postal workers' union is likely to take a sanguine view of autonomous vehicles replacing human jobs.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:09 pm UTC

Until they have robots that can deliver the mail to you, I don't see local trucks being replaced by autonomous ones. Shipments between cities might be.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:28 pm UTC

So, in much of the world, mail gets dropped off in central locations. Those central locations can be designed to be modular and have automated delivery easier than you can make trucks drive on roads.

Direct-to-door delivery may depend on having a compliant MailBox. Initially it might just be "service reduction" if you don't have a MailBox or sign up for centralized delivery (delivery on Tuesdays and Thursdays only), then eliminate the direct-to-door option.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:23 pm UTC

Eliminating direct-to-door delivery and making customers come to pick up their mail will create massive traffic congestion problems, because it replaces a couple hundred thousand delivery drivers with three hundred MILLION people trying to get to the post office several times per week. Most post offices do not have sufficient parking or mass transit access to accommodate this incress in demand for access.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:50 pm UTC

No. Experimentally: https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/en/person ... ilbox.page

Maybe not the way you think it would work, but it works.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:27 pm UTC

That works for delivering to a neighborhood location where you can easily walk to it. What I had been referring to was the kind of setup where the branch post office holds your mail on-site as with a typical US PO BOX, which would thus require nearly all postal customers to come to the post office itself.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:32 pm UTC

Yes, when you invent a solution that wouldn't work, it won't work.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Dauric » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:54 pm UTC

Most mailboxes are pretty standardized, building a rig to interact with them would be fairly trivial compared to the mail-truck itself. The most unpredictable part would be locating the mailbox which would be a image-pattern matching exercise. Even then some communities with homeowner's associations have rules about where and how you can mount a mailbox.

Doors with mail-slots would be trickier in that usually you have a short flight of steps to get to, but its fairly rare to encounter a community that randomly alternates mail-slots and mailboxes. An automated mail delivery truck designed to service a covenant-controlled community (ie: one with a homeowner's association) with standard mailboxes could still take a significant number of regular mail deliveries.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:41 pm UTC

Real mailboxes in the real world get hit by snowplows, beaten on by neighborhood kids, and are in various states of disrepair that can be handled (at present) by people, but would be a challenge to robots. Requiring that mailboxes be robot-friendly (rather than waiting until robots are mailbox-friendly) is an unwarranted expense. Rural mailboxes are expensive enough as it is. Maintaining them to robot-friendly tolerances is a non-starter.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:37 pm UTC

Did you learn nothing from Adam Orth, ucim? People who live in rural or other areas that would present infrastructure challenges for your Grand Plans just don't count! If they want to matter as customers/citizens/human beings deserving of basic respect and dignity, they should suck it up and move to well-maintained suburbs!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby dg61 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:18 am UTC

KittenKaboodle wrote:
ijuin wrote:Does that also imply that drivers of mail trucks and similarly un-plated vehicles are exempt from moving violations as well, even while driving recklessly?


I would suppose if the drivers were property of the federal government they might be, but there is that pesky 13th amendment.

A more interesting question would be in the case of an autonomous mail truck, if, say, one was injured by one would one have to sue in federal court, or in the jurisdiction in which the injury was sustained?

Nitpick: federal courts are subject to jurisdiction rules-you sue in the district the injury was in or the jurisdiction the defendant is *at home* in(YES I KNOW THIS IS COMPLICATED AND NOT REALLY CLEAR FOR SOME CORPORATE DEFENDANTS), or if a there is no district that 1 or 2 apply to, a district in the state the injury was in. Contracts are similar. I suppose if you had a claim against both the driver and the government(suing driver on negligence and government on employer liability) or against the manufacturer(say if it was unclear who was responsible and you're just suing everyone who could possibly be involved) you could litigate the claim against the driver/manufacturer in state court but you would run the risk of foreclosing federal remedies and per the Erie doctrine there's not going to be a real advantage to suing in state court.
Easiest option: just sue in the federal court in the district where the injury happened.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby dg61 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:21 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:Did you learn nothing from Adam Orth, ucim? People who live in rural or other areas that would present infrastructure challenges for your Grand Plans just don't count! If they want to matter as customers/citizens/human beings deserving of basic respect and dignity, they should suck it up and move to well-maintained suburbs!


EDIT: RE: post, community post seems to work fine where it's done, and Canada is both large and heavily rural much like the US so I struggle to see why it would not work about the same here. Possibly you would need a separate home-delivery system for very rural areas and community post for everywhere else but that seems workable.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:30 am UTC

Uh-Oh!!
This!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO5t62ZEzp0
umm...Many of this Forums Posters must already Know.
The heat in Europe is not making the daily News, here.


And; Then, This!
Since late May 2019, India has been facing a severe heat wave. It is one of the hottest and longest heat waves since the country began recording weather reports. The highest temperatures occurred in Churu, Rajasthan, reaching up to 50.8 °C (123.4 °F), a near record high in India.
Hundreds of lives have been lost to Heat and dehydration...

ohh...I'm sorry, World.
I should not have used so much fuel.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:43 pm UTC

Scotus rules gerrymandering legal, 5-4. Tells Democrats to suck it...


I have a feeling when Democrats win power, the conservative judges will feel differently. Assuming they're still alive.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/p ... e=Homepage

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:09 pm UTC

At least the citizenship question is off the census!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:50 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Scotus rules gerrymandering legal, 5-4. Tells Democrats to suck it...
well..sardia; That S-U-C-K-S !

Zohar wrote:At least the citizenship question is off the census!
It is??
Citation Please.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:10 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Zohar wrote:At least the citizenship question is off the census!
It is??
Citation Please.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/politics/census-supreme-court/index.html
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name


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