Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

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Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby felltir » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:09 pm UTC

https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/03/brendan-eich-steps-down-as-mozilla-ceo/

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:16 pm UTC

I think it was a totally reasonable thing to happen, whether or not it was caused, as TGB insists here, by OkCupid's desire to discourage political views antithetical to their own guiding philosophy.

A user on another forum wrote:Here's the thing: this CEO is allowed to hold his viewpoint. We, the general public, are allowed to criticize his stance and apply pressure to his position. The notion that this is somehow, "off limits," is absurd. If there were not sufficient backing and interest in this boycott, then Mozilla wouldn't care. Obviously, this isn't the case, and you can't reasonably argue that it's okay to publicly lobby for legislation to limit people's rights, and that those contributing should then be immune from the effects of public discourse. Making choices and holding views can have consequences. If I'm racist, it's not entirely insane to accept the notion that my contentious viewpoints might make me unacceptable to a populace that is not racist. The same goes if I was anti-racism and lived in a racist society.

The question I've posed to a lot of people is: would it be wrong for Microsoft to fire Steve Ballmer if he turned out to be a segregationist that financially contributed to segregation lobbyists trying to re-institute segregationist policies? If not, why not, and how is that different from what happened with Firefox?

I have yet to hear a coherent answer as to why it's okay for Microsoft to do so in my hypothetical, but not okay for Firefox (and a lot of people have tried to argue this to me), but I think the real reason is because much of modern society sees racism as unethical and morally repugnant, yet does not currently widely hold that belief regarding anti-homosexuality. If we could transplant the social ideals of the 1960's to today, much of this conversation would be the same, but it would be along racial divides instead of sexuality.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:21 pm UTC

As I said in FaiD, I can see reasons that Eich should not have been the CEO, but I am not at all happy with how it happened. It would have made sense for Eich to leave because the board decided he wasn't the right person to run the company, or because LGBT people at Mozilla weren't comfortable working with him. However, even if there were perfectly good reasons for him to leave, "because we can't tolerate conservative advocacy" isn't such a good one. Thus the fact that OkCupid was widely supported in its campaign to force him out of the job for that reason is not a good thing, even if it wasn't a but-for cause of his resignation or even if there were other good reasons for him to resign.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:23 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:OkCupid was widely supported in its campaign to force him out of the job for that reason is not a good thing
OkCupid was widely supported by other people who had their own reasons for not wanting him as Mozilla's CEO. You're begging the question bigtime if you're claiming that everyone else's reasons, or even that OkCupid's underlying reasons, amounted to your simplistic "because we can't tolerate conservative advocacy".

"Because we oppose a company whose CEO opposes basic human rights that we value" seems a much more accurate depiction of the prevailing reasons for the boycott, including OkC's own reasons.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:39 pm UTC

Yeah, I don't see how advocating for people to vote with their wallet is worse than someone advocating legal restrictions on other's ability to form legally recognized relationships.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

I take OkCupid at their word when they say, in their original message, that people like Eich "are our enemies, and we wish them nothing but failure." Neither the original message nor [Christian Rudder's note here](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... others-act) gives any other reason, as far as I can see: the motivation is to put pressure on people not to oppose marriage equality by threatening boycotts when they do.

Certainly different people will have different reasons for not wanting Eich there, but a lot of them got on board specifically because they read or heard about OkCupid's thing, and a lot of people passed it along (George Takei alone generated 13,000 shares). So, whether or not they agreed with OkCupid's reasoning, they were certainly helping to promote it.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:46 pm UTC

This topic got brought up in the religion topic. I'm frankly on Bredan Eich's side on this one, especially because he's one of the biggest supporters of the Open Source and Open Web Standards that have governed the internet since its inception.

Bredan Eich is not just "a" programmer, but THE programmer who invented Javascript. Under Netscape, he was a lead programmer for the Netscape Communicator project and thus everything he has done has literally touched every single corner of the internet. Later, as Netscape's existence faded, Bredan Eich was one of the founders of the Mozilla project. Under Mozilla, he has served for more than 15-years, for some time as CTO, and his post as technology lead has made him the leader of both Mozilla Communicator, and later the Firefox Web Browser. With 1000 employees and tens of thousands of contributors, the Mozilla Firefox web browser is a complicated project spanning Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, and even iPhones and Androids today.

There are very few people in the world who have the qualifications that Bredan Eich has. And for the most part, the Mozilla project has gone smoothly for the last 15 years. It isn't like Microsoft which has had hiccups in both the Vista release and Windows8 release. Firefox is basically a universally loved piece of software, developed by non-profit company on behalf of the open web. (Granted... Mozilla Communicator was kinda bad. But Bredan Eich would have been the guy who decided to "rewrite from scratch" and build Firefox instead of trying to fix Mozilla Communicator)

Bredan Eich isn't just some hypothetical dude, Bredan Eich is one of the web programming legends. He is a highly qualified, highly active programmer-turn-CEO who has fought for the Open Web since basically the Internet's mainstay into the general public.

gmalivuk wrote:The question I've posed to a lot of people is: would it be wrong for Microsoft to fire Steve Ballmer if he turned out to be a segregationist that financially contributed to segregation lobbyists trying to re-institute segregationist policies? If not, why not, and how is that different from what happened with Firefox?


Why not? Robert E. Lee became President of a University after the Civil War. I'd have to say that his views on Slavery and Segregation probably disagree with our modern views, but when a highly qualified individual wishes to lead, by golly we should let them lead.

Its not like Bredan Eich's position was one where he controlled any LBGT issues. He was the CEO of a non-profit Web company. And as far as his viewpoints on Technology and how the Internet should be an Open Place... he's one of the Open Web's biggest allies. And the fact that you can't agree with him on issues completely unrelated to his job is irrelevant. He was qualified for the position.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Isaac Hill » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:46 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:However, even if there were perfectly good reasons for him to leave, "because we can't tolerate conservative advocacy" isn't such a good one.
I agree. Eich and Mozilla decided they were right for each other. They've been together for 15 years and wanted to take that relationship to the next level. Who are we to say that shouldn't happen, just because we may not approve of some aspects of their lifestyle? It's not like you have to sit in the boardroom and watch. People like Eich exist, and denying them their right to form unions of their choice isn't going to make them go away. It's just going to make them miserable. I can't imagine anything so unconsionable.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:04 pm UTC

Who is denying them the right to form their union? People were just saying: "If you decide to stay with that douchebag, don't expect us to keep coming to your dinner parties".

Surely someone's right to form a union with someone else doesn't necessitate that every friend they had before is still their friend after. Everyone has a right to choose who they associate with, and especially who they pay.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby sardia » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:07 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:However, even if there were perfectly good reasons for him to leave, "because we can't tolerate conservative advocacy" isn't such a good one.
I agree. Eich and Mozilla decided they were right for each other. They've been together for 15 years and wanted to take that relationship to the next level. Who are we to say that shouldn't happen, just because we may not approve of some aspects of their lifestyle? It's not like you have to sit in the boardroom and watch. People like Eich exist, and denying them their right to form unions of their choice isn't going to make them go away. It's just going to make them miserable. I can't imagine anything so unconsionable.

Anyone who holds that view is an abomination, and should burn in hell.

Not to take the bad metaphor/joke too far, but you can't complain about being pushed out due to your personal gender role/sex viewpoints when you go out of your way to push out others due to their gender role/sex view point. The only way it works is if you self-victimize when you lose your job, and then call oppression of homosexuals some principled belief that you get to indulge in.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:20 pm UTC

I can definitely see the argument that Eich should not have been fired. I don't see the argument that OkCupid did something fundamentally problematic by calling for a boycott. Voting with one's wallet is the most defensible forms of advocacy there is.

Even when I disagree with the cause, I don't consider boycotts to ever be an illegitimate tactic.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:35 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Why not? Robert E. Lee became President of a University after the Civil War. I'd have to say that his views on Slavery and Segregation probably disagree with our modern views, but when a highly qualified individual wishes to lead, by golly we should let them lead.


Let me put this as gently as I know how:

Fuck.

That.

Seriously, fuck a viewpoint that says that the abstract "quality" of leadership somehow matters more than where one is being led. That is how we get shit like "But at least the trains run on time". There is no such thing as a good leader with repugnant goals, because if you're really good at leading me off a cliff, you are actually a terrible leader and I'm an idiot for leaving you in charge.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby morriswalters » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:06 pm UTC

So he was going to lead Mozilla off a the cliff because he contributed to the campaign against prop 8? I don't use Firefox because I care what he thinks, I use Firefox because it works. The attitude that you can't do your job because you hold unpopular positions is bad in any number of ways. Is there any indications that in his job at Mozilla that he discriminated against gays or anyone else? Is there any data?

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

Yeah, it's just ridiculous. Similar bad press could have just easily been manufactured had B.E. taken the opposite stance. Taken down the slippery slope, this means workplaces will become segregated along political lines.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Is there any indications that in his job at Mozilla that he discriminated against gays or anyone else? Is there any data?


Is there any indication that he actively supported sexual minorities in his company? Why on earth would the default assumption be that an avowed and active bigot is not practicing his bigotry in subtle or blatant ways in the company he runs?

If you're a member of the KKK, I'm going to assume that being a black employee under your "leadership" is going to be a pretty terrible experience. I don't see this as fundamentally different.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:18 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:I take OkCupid at their word when they say, in their original message, that people like Eich "are our enemies, and we wish them nothing but failure." Neither the original message nor [Christian Rudder's note here](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... others-act) gives any other reason, as far as I can see: the motivation is to put pressure on people not to oppose marriage equality by threatening boycotts when they do.
Which is not the same as your general "we can't tolerate conservative advocacy".

Belial wrote:If you're a member of the KKK, I'm going to assume that being a black employee under your "leadership" is going to be a pretty terrible experience. I don't see this as fundamentally different.
Exactly.

It's different in degree, sure, and practically speaking I suspect sexual minorities would be less uncomfortable working for Eich's Mozilla than Black people would be working for a Klansman's. But none of the arguments I've seen defending Eich here admit to such matters of degree.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:51 am UTC

Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Why not? Robert E. Lee became President of a University after the Civil War. I'd have to say that his views on Slavery and Segregation probably disagree with our modern views, but when a highly qualified individual wishes to lead, by golly we should let them lead.


Let me put this as gently as I know how:

Fuck.

That.

Seriously, fuck a viewpoint that says that the abstract "quality" of leadership somehow matters more than where one is being led. That is how we get shit like "But at least the trains run on time". There is no such thing as a good leader with repugnant goals, because if you're really good at leading me off a cliff, you are actually a terrible leader and I'm an idiot for leaving you in charge.


Tell me if any LGBT programmer has ever felt as if the Firefox Open Source community has wronged them in any way. Considering that there are openly gay members part of the Mozilla Corporation (who were asking him to stay in Mozilla despite the controversy), methinks it is quite different than your outrageous hyperbole.

Cry me a river. Programmers don't care if you're Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender. He was a fighter for the Open Web, one that should be missed.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:54 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Cry me a river. Programmers don't care if you're Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender. He was a fighter for the Open Web, one that should be missed.


Doesn't "cry me a river" usually apply to the side that lost the conflict in question?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby morriswalters » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:59 am UTC

Belial wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Is there any indications that in his job at Mozilla that he discriminated against gays or anyone else? Is there any data?


Is there any indication that he actively supported sexual minorities in his company? Why on earth would the default assumption be that an avowed and active bigot is not practicing his bigotry in subtle or blatant ways in the company he runs?

If you're a member of the KKK, I'm going to assume that being a black employee under your "leadership" is going to be a pretty terrible experience. I don't see this as fundamentally different.
So have you quit beating your wife? You can't prove that you don't, but you can damn sure the question itself is meant to make people think you do. Are you going to run everybody out of a job who supported prop 8? Is he a member of some organization, other than his former companies? God Against Gays? I Hate Fags? He exercised his right of free speech. Isn't this exactly what gays have been struggling against? Not to have their competence questioned because of their sexual orientation? I like people who don't hide. We can do business. It's those silent haters I detest.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:05 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Cry me a river. Programmers don't care if you're Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender. He was a fighter for the Open Web, one that should be missed.


Doesn't "cry me a river" usually apply to the side that lost the conflict in question?


The Open Web lost the conflict.

And as far as I can tell, everyone on this forum is in support of Open Web Standards... and wishes to fight against the corporations who wish to control the internet. Its just that some people don't seem to even understand who the fuck we just lost in this spat.

You people do realize that Brendan Eich has been fighting for openness and non-corporate control of the Internet for his entire tenure at Mozilla?

http://xkcd.com/743/
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:07 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Are you going to run everybody out of a job who supported prop 8?
No, and no one cared about his support either until he became CEO.

He exercised his right of free speech.
Yes, and then so did everyone who criticized him.

KnightExemplar wrote:The Open Web lost the conflict.
Yes, because he was the only one who supported it. And he can only support it as the CEO of Mozilla. That's why no one supported the Open Web before he became CEO, and that's why no one will support it in the future.

Or perhaps you're full of shit and that is a gross exaggeration of anything resembling reality.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:10 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:The Open Web lost the conflict.
Yes, because he was the only one who supported it. And he can only support it as the CEO of Mozilla. That's why no one supported the Open Web before he became CEO, and that's why no one will support it in the future.

Or perhaps you're full of shit and that is a gross exaggeration of anything resembling reality.


He's the fucking cofounder of Mozilla.

Holy fuck man. These sorts of guys don't exactly grow on trees.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:11 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The Open Web lost the conflict.


Cry me a river.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:24 am UTC

Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)

EDIT: Lemme iterate how much of a problem this has been for Mozilla. Over the course of two weeks, Mozilla has lost its CEO, its CTO, and three board members to this controversy. The conservative community now looks upon Mozilla negatively, although the LGBT community seems happy about the blood that has been spilt on this matter. But the reputation of "inclusiveness" has been permanently damaged at Mozilla.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby morriswalters » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:55 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, and then so did everyone who criticized him.
Yes, they did. And it was their right. Given his apparent involvement over the years with Mozilla wouldn't these self same people be more comfortable continuing their boycott of Firefox. The company didn't suddenly change, because he left. Whatever it was or might be is a product of some part of him.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Carlington » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:00 am UTC

The point to make here, and I posted this in the other discussion but it probably belongs more here, is that some people don't want to do things that benefit people they disagree with. His stance on non-heterosexual marriage doesn't affect his competence in his work, and it doesn't suddenly make Firefox shoot gay-melting lasers out of the screens of homosexuals. However, the success of Firefox and the success of Mozilla contribute directly to the success of Brendan Eich, as long as he is CEO. The more successful he is, the more power he has to make life difficult and miserable for anybody who is not heterosexual anywhere in the US. Obviously, people who are not heterosexual aren't going to be happy about this, and so they gave Mozilla an ultimatum - stop allowing Brendan Eich to profit from your success, or we will take our business, and thus your profits, elsewhere.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:10 am UTC

Carlington wrote:The point to make here, and I posted this in the other discussion but it probably belongs more here, is that some people don't want to do things that benefit people they disagree with. His stance on non-heterosexual marriage doesn't affect his competence in his work, and it doesn't suddenly make Firefox shoot gay-melting lasers out of the screens of homosexuals. However, the success of Firefox and the success of Mozilla contribute directly to the success of Brendan Eich, as long as he is CEO. The more successful he is, the more power he has to make life difficult and miserable for anybody who is not heterosexual anywhere in the US. Obviously, people who are not heterosexual aren't going to be happy about this, and so they gave Mozilla an ultimatum - stop allowing Brendan Eich to profit from your success, or we will take our business, and thus your profits, elsewhere.

As if he is going to be out of work. If anything, he will be more polarized after this.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:11 am UTC

ormurinn - religion thread wrote:What we have here is a guy being forced out of his job for crimethink and crimespeech (no, donating money to support a political cause isn't opression, and not being allowed to engage in a certain form of contract that has never in history been tailored to your circumstances in any culture in the world is not opression either, it's an inconvenience).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xZ-gyzG2ows/U ... .36+PM.png

I actually support gay marriage, and I'm not religious, but this shit isn't happening in a vacuum. Pax Dickinson was fired for out of work expressions after another braying social-justice-warrior lynchmob went after him. Here in the U.K people have their children confiscated for voting for a party that's not progressive enough. Gawker released a list of gun owners to the general population. Entire branches of sciences and humanities are de facto forbidden because their conclusions conflict with the Official Truth.

The twitterati and internet gutter press got Eich fired without having to expend anything. Their campaign was 100% effective and completely costless to them - so why would they stop targeting people? The entirety of the tangled web of opinion formers that create policy and then tell us how we should feel about it - the inhabitants of the pipeline that leads from uiversity humanities departments to newsblogs and the popular press is completely ideologically uniform, and now know they can destroy nononformers at will, and get a spike in hits and ad revenue into the bargain.

How confident are you that the inquisition will never turn on you? Of course, you can feel free to disagree at any point - they dont need to take away your de jure rightto free speech. They just have to make sure you know that once you question the Official Truth (which is ever changing! six years ago opposition to gay marriage was fine - and the majority position) you will lose your job, lose your children. You'll be expelled from university or get time in prison now that hurting feelings is a criminal offence.


This is just another example of the politically powerful forcing ideological conformity through the creation of a culture of fear.

Unfortunately the internet has lowered communications costs to such an extent that you don't even need to pay your thought police anymore.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Carlington » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:23 am UTC

Ormurinn, that would be a strong argument if it were actually true. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you've failed to provide anything to substantiate your speculation about a worldwide left-wing conspiracy that's successfully keeping all of the under-represented misogynists, homophobes, racists and exploitational members of the upper class from ever saying anything or having any kind of influence ever.

So successful has this campaign been, in fact, that nobody opposes non-heterosexual marriage anymore. That's why it's legal everywhere forever.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby leady » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:38 am UTC

Whilst there is nothing wrong in doing this I would suggest that if the inverse scenario played out then the internet would explode in outrage.

With the only difference being being a conservative vs liberal perspective on the world, its not unreasonable to highlight the complete double standard that is enjoyed by the left across a huge range of social issues, few of which have real objective basis for the outrage.

I'd also argue that doing this is very counter productive for the left too. Its harder to maintain the standard "the right are tools, we are cool" narrative, when your supporters are extremely petty and vindictive.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Carlington » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:59 am UTC

You certainly could suggest that, leady, but that would be disingenuous at best. The difference between the double-standard of the left versus the double-standard of the right* is that the double-standard of the right is an existing and accepted double-standard, that's already put various groups at a disadvantage, where the double-standard of the left is working to counteract the double-standard of the right, and to level the playing field. It's all well and good to say "I'm going to give everybody a litre of water, because I want to help everybody equally"; but if one person starts with a litre of water and one person starts with half a litre, then there'll still be a difference of half a litre at the end of the day. The only way to put the two on even footing is to take away 250mL from one and give it to the other.




*For clarity's sake, I'm only using the terms 'left' and 'right' because they're the established terms being used in this discussion, and not because they're the best or most correct terms.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:12 am UTC

Carlington wrote:Ormurinn, that would be a strong argument if it were actually true. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you've failed to provide anything to substantiate your speculation about a worldwide left-wing conspiracy that's successfully keeping all of the under-represented misogynists, homophobes, racists and exploitational members of the upper class from ever saying anything or having any kind of influence ever.

So successful has this campaign been, in fact, that nobody opposes non-heterosexual marriage anymore. That's why it's legal everywhere forever.


That has nothing to do with anything I actually said.

Was Pax dickinson fired from business insider? Yes.

Have U.K.I.P supporter in the uk had their kids confiscated? Yes

Plenty of science is de-facto forbidden; Here for instance. Or else, you could just google "Evolutionary Psychology" or "Sociobiology". Students at major universities are actively calling for the elimination of academic freedom- and being supported in it by the media-academic complex.

I've not elided a "worldwide left-wing conspiracy " - I've pointed out that the media (the most powerful estate in a democracy, because they control opinion) and academia (the second most powerful, because they propose policy) are completely ideologically uniform. for instance, take a gander at this study. Or this one. It's interesting to note that the difference is most pronounced in degree paths that lead to work in policy-making and journalism - which probably leads to outcomes like this.

So, due to cultural assortion, more left-wingers are attracted to career paths in journalism, education and policy-making and right wingers are attracted to science and engineering. More left-wingers of all stripes pursue an academic path whilst right-wingers go into business. That wouldnt be a problem except that the ideological imbalance in media and government causes a feedback loop of increasing ideological purity in the media, and in today's interconnected internet-oriented world the media is orders of magnitude more powerful than science and engineering, and universities are much more influential than private companies, not to mention the culture-shifting effect of ideological uniformity amongst educators.

One of the most sigmnificant programmers of our age was just forced out of the company he built by the media-political complex's equivalent of a shrug. An ordinary conservative-leaning engineer like me doesn't stand a chance once the constant leftward drift of our institutions catches up to my positions. Hell, it won't get that far, they'll justdrugme into submission.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Angua » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:54 am UTC

A drug that helps reduce anxiety reduces an anxiety/fear based response? Colour me surprised!
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby leady » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:57 am UTC

Carlington wrote:You certainly could suggest that, leady, but that would be disingenuous at best. The difference between the double-standard of the left versus the double-standard of the right* is that the double-standard of the right is an existing and accepted double-standard,


Alternatively there could be an acknowledgement that a lot of the "lefts" sacred cows are nothing more than their personal bias made manifest and that they aren't the red line rights issues that they are made out to be, particularly in the arena of granted positive rights. There are shed loads of arbitrary positive rights (and yes i'm more than happy to level the playing field by removing all of them!)

that's already put various groups at a disadvantage, where the double-standard of the left is working to counteract the double-standard of the right, and to level the playing field. It's all well and good to say "I'm going to give everybody a litre of water, because I want to help everybody equally"; but if one person starts with a litre of water and one person starts with half a litre, then there'll still be a difference of half a litre at the end of the day. The only way to put the two on even footing is to take away 250mL from one and give it to the other.


its not a perspective I agree with, but I understand it. But to extend your analogy, this specific religous created "right" is maybe altering the levels by less than a mililitre - in no area of life does not being married really affect you (assuming you've normalised things such as hospital visitation etc). Hell the people who can exercise the right don't and of those that do, half of those decide it was a terrible idea :). So getting someone fired over it is somewhat harsh, and looks nasty.


Personally I don't think the state should be in the "marriage" business, but I also don't have the religous hang ups about the name vs "civil partnerships" etc so I don't care. Its the harsh silencing tactics over thought crimes I get a little concerned about

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:05 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Are you going to run everybody out of a job who supported prop 8?


To paraphrase TMT in the other thread: I don't like doing business with homophobes. I don't think anyone else should either. If that means it becomes unprofitable to ever put homophobes in places of visible power in most companies, that it is unwise to be homophobic in the business sphere? That there comes to be a slowly sinking glass ceiling for bigots?

Good. They can join all the other hate groups in the land of the unemployable.

KnightExemplar wrote:Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)


If you and I disagree on whether I or people I care about are human beings deserving of rights?

Yeah, no, inclusiveness does not include working with you, and in fact, fuck hypothetical-you for trying to co-opt a term that basically meant "can we please have a place in society" to mean "can I please continue to try to oppress you even though the tide of society is turning against it?" This isn't a fucking disagreement about favorite sports teams or what color god's sneakers are. This is a group of people who spent most of recent history trying to marginalize others, in this case a person who actively contributed to the fight to strip others of their rights, suddenly getting upset because he found himself on the wrong side of history. Fuck him. Where the fuck was "inclusiveness" when he was making that decision? He manifestly doesn't believe everyone deserves a place in society, why should anyone bend over backwards to give him one?

Seriously, this "you're intolerant of my intolerance" rhetoric makes me sick to my ass.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:13 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)


If you and I disagree on whether I or people I care about are human beings deserving of rights?

Yeah, no, inclusiveness does not include working with you, and in fact, fuck hypothetical-you for trying to co-opt a term that basically meant "can we please have a place in society" to mean "can I please continue to try to marginalize and oppress you even though the tide of society is turning against it?"

Seriously, this "you're intolerant of bigots" rhetoric makes me sick to my ass.


People Belial think's it would be beneath him to work with;

-Everyone born before 1930

-Comitted followers of all major religions

-The majority of people in his own nation until circa 6 years ago

-The majority of inhabitants of the planet

n.b - marriage isn't a right, it's a legal privelige

Angua wrote:A drug that helps reduce anxiety reduces an anxiety/fear based response? Colour me surprised!


It's not the drug itself, but the tone of the articles reporting the finding.

"These people don't sghare our opinions, but now theres a drug that might make them!"

its fucking terrifying
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:17 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)


If you and I disagree on whether I or people I care about are human beings deserving of rights?

Yeah, no, inclusiveness does not include working with you, and in fact, fuck hypothetical-you for trying to co-opt a term that basically meant "can we please have a place in society" to mean "can I please continue to try to marginalize and oppress you even though the tide of society is turning against it?"

Seriously, this "you're intolerant of bigots" rhetoric makes me sick to my ass.


People Belial think's it would be beneath him to work with;

-Everyone born before 1930

-Comitted followers of all major religions

-The majority of people in his own nation until circa 6 years ago

-The majority of inhabitants of the planet

n.b - marriage isn't a right, it's a legal privelige


Yep, it's true, everyone born before 1930 is a bigot, because no one has ever changed their mind or questioned their society. There definitely weren't forward thinkers in literally every generation who rejected the notion that some people were less-than. They didn't install basic empathy in the human production line until the 1931 model.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:20 pm UTC

Wouldn't that list mostly be the same if Belial didn't want to work with people who believe that women are strictly inferior to men, or that people who aren't their race are strictly inferior to people who are?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:30 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Plenty of science is de-facto forbidden; Here for instance. Or else, you could just google "Evolutionary Psychology" or "Sociobiology".
I don't understand the point you are making with the less wrong link and you are flat wrong that evolutionary psychology and sociobology are forbidden. They are, and should be, treated with much more care and thought than people like Jensen or Herrnstein treated the field. Which you talk about here:

Students at major universities are actively calling for the elimination of academic freedom- and being supported in it by the media-academic complex.

When you do bad science and them claim something extraordinary based on that science that has some potential to cause great civic harm you should be aware of your responsibility as an expert. If you don't take that seriously you should certainly be shunned. While they aren't as bad as Wakefield they aren't to far off either.

I've pointed out that the media (the most powerful estate in a democracy, because they control opinion) and academia (the second most powerful, because they propose policy) are completely ideologically uniform. for instance, take a gander at this study. Or this one. It's interesting to note that the difference is most pronounced in degree paths that lead to work in policy-making and journalism - which probably leads to outcomes like this.
Ignoring your very wrong view of the most powerful 'estates' in a democracy, and very specifically the American one, you don't site a single study in this. I did find the study mentioned in the first article you linked though, you can view it here. I could go into the number of giant flaws in how this how this 'research' was conducted, but take a look yourself first.

So, due to cultural assortion, more left-wingers are attracted to career paths in journalism, education and policy-making and right wingers are attracted to science and engineering.
Not once ever have I heard anyone showing or even stating that right-wingers are more drawn to science and engineering, this includes everything that you have linked above. In fact most of them state the opposite.

Then the primary aspect of everything you have linked is talking about how the media and academia are more 'socially liberal' which in pretty much every instance of what you cited simply means 'more tolerant of differences among people.' Which is coincidentally what this whole topic is largely about, someones tolerance of others and how important that aspect of their belief structure is as a leader of a company that employs those he is intolerant of and expects people to use his product that he is intolerant of. Right now the use of technology is largely dominated by a generation that has been taught that tolerance of differences is one of the most important things to value.

You don't seem to believe that tolerance of others should be placed above experience and skill. Many people disagree with you, enough to at the least influence Eich step down.
Last edited by Zcorp on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:39 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:32 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)


If you and I disagree on whether I or people I care about are human beings deserving of rights?

Yeah, no, inclusiveness does not include working with you, and in fact, fuck hypothetical-you for trying to co-opt a term that basically meant "can we please have a place in society" to mean "can I please continue to try to marginalize and oppress you even though the tide of society is turning against it?"

Seriously, this "you're intolerant of bigots" rhetoric makes me sick to my ass.


People Belial think's it would be beneath him to work with;

-Everyone born before 1930

-Comitted followers of all major religions

-The majority of people in his own nation until circa 6 years ago

-The majority of inhabitants of the planet

n.b - marriage isn't a right, it's a legal privelige


Yep, it's true, everyone born before 1930 is a bigot, because no one has ever changed their mind or questioned their society. There definitely weren't forward thinkers in literally every generation who rejected the notion that some people were less-than. They didn't install basic empathy in the human production line until the 1931 model.


There were plenty of people with basic empathy at all those times. I bet Brendan Eich had basic human empathy even. Loads of cultures were tolerant of homosexuality (those edwardians... steamy), even ones where it was de jure illegal.

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the extension of the institution of marriage to homosexual couples, which was never asked for, nor advocated for, before around 1970. I posted a google books frequency plot of the use of the term "homosexual marriage" above.

Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.

We have legalised gay marriage in the U.K. Almost immediately legal challenges were mounted using the new law to oppress churches. That's genuinely oppress, as in "surrender your deeply held beliefs or be taken out of comission by state power", not "your partnership certificate has "civil partnership" rather than "marriage" written on it".

zcorp wrote:You don't seem to believe that tolerance of others should be placed above experience and skill. Many people disagree with you, enough to at the least influence Eich step down.


Well, no. What you've written here could just have easily have been written "You don't seem to believe that ideological correctness should be placed above experience and skill." And, well, no. I don't. I believe in live-and-let-live, which includes allowing people to take actions informed by their religious beliefs without fear of being hounded out of their career and ruined.
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