Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:38 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.
Except that its not. Follow through your argument of why it isn't bigotry and show me how it doesn't end with homosexual love is less than heterosexual love. If you can you will be the first one ever.

We have legalised gay marriage in the U.K. Almost immediately legal challenges were mountedusing the new law to oppress churches. That's genuinely oppress, as in "surrender your deeply held beliefs or be taken out of comission by state power", not "your partnership certificate has "civil partnershi" rather than "marriage" written on it".

Yeah, those poor Christians, always getting 'oppressed on' for oppressing people, rough life.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:38 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.


As always, switch "gay marriage" with "interracial marriage", realize how awful you sound, and then hush.

We have legalised gay marriage in the U.K. Almost immediately legal challenges were mounted using the new law to oppress churches. That's genuinely oppress, as in "surrender your deeply held beliefs or be taken out of comission by state power", not "your partnership certificate has "civil partnership" rather than "marriage" written on it".


Yeah, so it turns out that when you have an established state religion (even if everyone in your country has tacitly agreed not to pay a lot of attention to it) then it actually does matter a little bit if that religion is openly bigoted. If you want the right to practice your "deeply held beliefs" free of state interference, either choose a religion that isn't actually coupled to your state, or uncouple your religion from the state.

Luckily, we don't have that problem.

Also, seriously, if all you've got is "one couple said they were going to try to mount a lawsuit (that the legal experts in the article explicitly said would fail)" then legitimately fuck off with this nonsense.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:44 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.


As always, switch "gay marriage" with "interracial marriage", realize how awful you sound, and then hush.


Hey, that's not fair. You can't just assume that Ormurinn is pro-interracial marriage.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:46 pm UTC

Cute how you ignore how I point out on how wrong your entire post is.

zcorp wrote:You don't seem to believe that tolerance of others should be placed above experience and skill. Many people disagree with you, enough to at the least influence Eich step down.


Well, no. What you've written here could just have easily have been written "You don't seem to believe that ideological correctness should be placed above experience and skill." And, well, no. I don't. I believe in live-and-let-live, which includes allowing people to take actions informed by their religious beliefs without fear of being hounded out of their career and ruined.



Right...you believe that I should be able to support Nazis, the KKK, and Child Rapists but because I'm a good programmer no one should refuse to work with me or stop purchasing what I'm selling. Doesn't matter that I support raping and killing black jewish children cause I can code well!

The rest of us are looking at you amazed that you could believe something that stupid.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:56 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.


As always, switch "gay marriage" with "interracial marriage", realize how awful you sound, and then hush. .


Interracial marriage has been permitted through most of human history, with the odd blip in recently-conquered societies or slave societies.

Homsexual marriage hasn't existed ever, in history, except in the past couple of years.

Belial wrote:
We have legalised gay marriage in the U.K. Almost immediately legal challenges were mounted using the new law to oppress churches. That's genuinely oppress, as in "surrender your deeply held beliefs or be taken out of comission by state power", not "your partnership certificate has "civil partnership" rather than "marriage" written on it".


Yeah, so it turns out that when you have an established state religion (even if everyone in your country has tacitly agreed not to pay a lot of attention to it) then it actually does matter a little bit if that religion is openly bigoted. If you want the right to practice your "deeply held beliefs" free of state interference, either choose a religion that isn't actually coupled to your state, or uncouple your religion from the state.

Luckily, we don't have that problem.


I don't think you realise how much damage that would do to english culture - but then, you're not English.

Almost everyone gets their kids christened, and gets married in a church, despite most people never usually attending. The CofE is more of a cultural institution than a religious one. That status is permitted by it's legal establishment - the Church is obliged to marry anyone who wants to be married, even if they're not christian.

This has never been a problem in history, because marriage is remarkably uniform across all ethnic and cultural groups - so many groups weddings fit comfortably within canon law. Polygamy would propose a problem, but is still illegal. It's really quite harmonious, a shining example of multiculturalism - secular and interfaith weddings beneath the umbrella of a national church.

Then of course, a new form of marriage, with little resemblance to the historical institution, was invented a few years back. Trying to maintain this unique aspect of English culture, we permitted an institution that was legally identical with a slightly different name, but of course the homolobby couldn't let it lie.

So now the christians of the CofE, the ones who curate it for the secular population, are being forced to abandon their faith or abandon the role of the church, because of the pettiness of a tiny but influential lobby who mostly don't give two shits about marriage anyway.

Zcorp wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:Your mendacious insistence that resisting the granting of a very specific form of mostly symbolic legal privelige is "opression," and your conflation of people who have concerns about changing the definition of marriage with bigots, is ridiculous.
Except that its not. Follow through your argument of why it isn't bigotry and show me how it doesn't end with homosexual love is less than heterosexual love. If you can you will be the first one ever.


I actually support gay marriage, as I said earlier in the thread. I do believe however, that the civil partnership situation was better, due to the afforementionned oppression of christians as a directo result of interplay between the established church and the ECHR.

That said, if I had to argue against gay marriage (and the viciousness of it's proponents encourages me to) I'd argue from Burkean Traditionalism.

No culture on the whole planet, ever in history, until the late 2000's had an institution of homosexual marriage - even cultures that accepted or even celebrated homosexual relationships. If homosexual marriage were important to human flourishing, it would have emerged in one of them beforehand. On balance of probability, since homosexual marriage is being advocated only in a tiny minority of countries, in a tiny slice of time, it's more likely we're wrong (and theres either no compelling reason to permit homosexual marriage, or else the institution is actively harmful) than that we're right, and every person ever born before 1930 was an idiot.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:58 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Cute how you ignore how I point out on how wrong your entire post is.

zcorp wrote:You don't seem to believe that tolerance of others should be placed above experience and skill. Many people disagree with you, enough to at the least influence Eich step down.


Well, no. What you've written here could just have easily have been written "You don't seem to believe that ideological correctness should be placed above experience and skill." And, well, no. I don't. I believe in live-and-let-live, which includes allowing people to take actions informed by their religious beliefs without fear of being hounded out of their career and ruined.



Right...you believe that I should be able to support Nazis, the KKK, and Child Rapists but because I'm a good programmer no one should refuse to work with me or stop purchasing what I'm selling. Doesn't matter that I support raping and killing black jewish children cause I can code well!

The rest of us are looking at you amazed that you could believe something that stupid.

On the contrary that is a well-accepted principle of democracy. It's also funny how you name niche groups, when B.E. was actually on the side of the majority.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:05 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Right...you believe that I should be able to support Nazis, the KKK, and Child Rapists but because I'm a good programmer no one should refuse to work with me or stop purchasing what I'm selling.


On the contrary that is a well-accepted principle of democracy. It's also funny how you name niche groups, when B.E. was actually on the side of the majority.


It's a well-accepted principle of democracy that boycotts are wrong?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:08 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Interracial marriage has been permitted through most of human history, with the odd blip in recently-conquered societies or slave societies.


No, it hasn't, because "Race" as a concept wasn't invented until the 17th century. For most of the period that race has existed as a concept, interracial marriage has been forbidden (at least in america).

Homsexual marriage hasn't existed ever, in history, except in the past couple of years.


So? Why should "people have sucked in the past" have any bearing on how much I tolerate them sucking now?

I don't think you realise how much damage that would do to english culture - but then, you're not English.

Almost everyone gets their kids christened, and gets married in a church, despite most people never usually attending. The CofE is more of a cultural institution than a religious one. That status is permitted by it's legal establishment - the Church is obliged to marry anyone who wants to be married, even if they're not christian.


Which is exactly why they're expected to not be intolerant fuckheads: they get to continue being the Official Religion of the English Government because they keep their doors open to all the many many people in England who aren't protestants. Which means that unlike, say, the catholic church who can say "no, you don't believe the right stuff about bread-cannibalism and also you're both ladies", and have that decision be grudgingly respected, they need to keep up with the times if they want to continue being England's sponsored Kool-Aid vendor.

They signed up for this. Cry me a fucking river.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:09 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:I actually support gay marriage, as I said earlier in the thread. I do believe however, that the civil partnership situation was better, due to the afforementionned oppression of christians as a directo result of interplay between the established church and the ECHR.
This is yet another example of the majority screaming 'help help i'm being oppressed!' when a minority asks for equal rights.

No one is walking into the WBC and demanding they marry two dudes, content that the strong arm of the USofA is going to swoop in and stand on the side of homosexuals. Having a marriage license in no way oppresses churches.

Ormurinn wrote:So now the christians of the CofE, the ones who curate it for the secular population, are being forced to abandon their faith or abandon the role of the church, because of the pettiness of a tiny but influential lobby who mostly don't give two shits about marriage anyway.
Maybe the minority is being unreasonable for wanting equality... wait, no, nono, nope, YOU'RE the one being unreasonable for denying it to them.

Orm, frankly, the views you are holding are wrong, and if you fear for the damage to English culture because it's forced to get with the fucking times and stop relying on bigoted outmoded values, all I can say is your culture is wrong. Actually, no, I would ALSO say, that it's adapted a few times already; I wager black people are allowed to christen their children in the CofE? Working women are allowed to participate in services still?

Pay attention to Zcorps post; he addressed some very important points that you just ignored whole cloth.

Also, I can't believe this needs to be explained to you, but marriage has typically been a property negotiation for the purposes of rearing babies. Obviously it isn't that anymore, and doesn't have to be. Being pissed that it's NOT that anymore is a whole separate issue that I'd love to see your attempts to support.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:11 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Homsexual marriage hasn't existed ever, in history, except in the past couple of years.

I've never used this before thanks for the opportunity.


aoeu wrote:It's also funny how you name niche groups, when B.E. was actually on the side of the majority.

Yeah it is funny that I named things that have to do with ideological correctness and how he didn't think at all about what he was actually saying or what that means. Also funny how ideological correctness as little to do with what the majority or minority believes. If I believe that it is ok to enslave black people is not more right because majority thinks it is ok. However, he would value that ideological view less in his leaders than their ability to code.
Last edited by Zcorp on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:13 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Angua » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:13 pm UTC

Also, when they were legalising gay marriage, wasn't there a lot of stop about the CoE actually being forbidden by law to perform gay marriages so you wouldn't have the problem of lawsuits?

Or did they scrap that?

Also, just because people happen to have their children christened doesn't really mean that they have anything to do with the church - a lot of them won't be affected much if the church suddenly dissolved out the blue (which is something I highly doubt will happen). It's like atheists celebrating Christmas.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:No culture on the whole planet, ever in history, until the late 2000's had an institution of homosexual marriage - even cultures that accepted or even celebrated homosexual relationships. If homosexual marriage were important to human flourishing, it would have emerged in one of them beforehand. On balance of probability, since homosexual marriage is being advocated only in a tiny minority of countries, in a tiny slice of time, it's more likely we're wrong (and theres either no compelling reason to permit homosexual marriage, or else the institution is actively harmful) than that we're right, and every person ever born before 1930 was an idiot.


To echo Izawwlgood and Zcorp, let me quote the wiki:

THE WIKI wrote:While it is a relatively new practice that same-sex couples are being granted the same form of legal marital recognition as commonly used by mixed-sexed couples, there is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world.[2] Various types of same-sex unions have existed, ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions.

A same-sex union was known in Ancient Greece and Rome,[2] ancient Mesopotamia,[3] in some regions of China, such as Fujian province, and at certain times in ancient European history.[4] These same-sex unions continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, which prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome and ordered that those who were so married were to be executed. [5]

Same-sex marital practices and rituals were more recognized in Mesopotamia than in ancient Egypt.[6] In the ancient Assyrian society, there was nothing amiss with homosexual love between men.[7] Some ancient religious Assyrian texts contain prayers for divine blessings on homosexual relationships.[8][9][9] The Almanac of Incantations contained prayers favoring on an equal basis the love of a man for a woman and of a man for man.[10]

In the southern Chinese province of Fujian, through the Ming dynasty period, females would bind themselves in contracts to younger females in elaborate ceremonies.[11] Males also entered similar arrangements. This type of arrangement was also similar in ancient European history.[12]

An example of egalitarian male domestic partnership from the early Zhou Dynasty period of China is recorded in the story of Pan Zhang & Wang Zhongxian. While the relationship was clearly approved by the wider community, and was compared to heterosexual marriage, it did not involve a religious ceremony binding the couple.[13]


WOW THAT IS A LOT OF FOLKS DOING SOMETHING LIKE MARRIAGE.

Was it exactly what we're doing now? No. To once again echo Izawwlgood, heterosexual marriage in its current form (aka a voluntary and terminable partnership agreement between two people often on grounds of romantic and sexual attraction) is a new thing. Immediately begin arguing about how we need to bring arranged marriages for profit back because that's the historical precedent.

Do it. Let's go.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:25 pm UTC

All these people. Ignoring that I've already said I support gay marriage.

You know what? Fuck it. You guys are all aboard the progressivism train and haing fun with your side crushing the opposition. The opposition isn't even me, I just sympathise with them.

You will have no grounds to complain if the pendulum ever shifts the other way and it's your views that are being pushed aside. Just remember that there were some people saying acceptance of plurality of opinion was a good thing, but your victory disease meant you couldn't listen to them.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby leady » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:30 pm UTC

I think everyone should be forced to watch the south park episode on tolerance in school :)

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:36 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:All these people. Ignoring that I've already said I support gay marriage.

I know reading is hard, especially on the internet and even more so when people type more than 140 characters, but not a single response to you yet has anything to do with your opinion on gay marriage. There are quite a few posts stating how you are wrong about a lot of things, but the core issue is that you think that I should be able to harm people in what ever the fuck way I want to and when people stop wanting to work with me the problem is with them.

You know what? Fuck it. You guys are all aboard the progressivism train and haing fun with your side crushing the opposition. The opposition isn't even me, I just sympathise with them.
Yeah its so fun dealing with bigotry, like wow wheeeee! look at all the fun I'm having, Look! A bigot now I get to spend significant time and effort in the political landscape dealing with the bigotry rather than bigger larger problems that we should be fixing (not that we theoretically can't fix both or that this isn't a problem with fixing). Talk about fun! Before I can deal with that fact the my country is blowing up the world, destroying its middle class and falling further behind in education (which compounds all of the preceding problems) we have to solve this problem that is so incredibly obvious that it hurts everyone's brain that it hasn't been fixed yet. You got me! I do this for kicks.

You will have no grounds to complain if the pendulum ever shifts the other way and it's your views that are being pushed aside. Just remember that there were some people saying acceptance of plurality of opinion was a good thing, but your victory disease meant you couldn't listen to them.

Yeah, again you are so right, the pendulum is so far pushed to my side that my country has foreign policy, government spending, privacy policy, educational policy, economic policy, science policy, healthcare policy that I all disagree with. But hey I sure am having fun dealing with the bigots.
Last edited by Zcorp on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:48 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:41 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:You will have no grounds to complain if the pendulum ever shifts the other way and it's your views that are being pushed aside. Just remember that there were some people saying acceptance of plurality of opinion was a good thing, but your victory disease meant you couldn't listen to them.


To steal a page from your book, "acceptance of a plurality of opinion" never existed before, why would it exist in the future? There have been plenty of periods where outspoken belief in abolitionism, or interracial marriage, or atheism, or the rights of sexual minorities, or women's suffrage could all get you ostracized from society. The only reason these ideas ever become "Accepted" into a "plurality" is because they're popular and ascendant enough to make it impractical to continue marginalizing them.

I am fundamentally uninterested in creating a society where all ideas, no matter how ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane, are accepted. And neither are the people who hold those ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane ideas. They only profess a desire for that sort of society because they realize that their positions are becoming untenable and they hope to be able to hold on long enough to, as you mention, "swing the pendulum the other way". Fuck them.

I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:47 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:You will have no grounds to complain if the pendulum ever shifts the other way and it's your views that are being pushed aside. Just remember that there were some people saying acceptance of plurality of opinion was a good thing, but your victory disease meant you couldn't listen to them.


What are you going on about? There are already plenty of conservative traditionalist groups that call for boycotts against anything they consider too liberal/gay/pro-abortion/etc. I roll my eyes because I think their views are wrongheaded, but it's perfectly valid for them to boycott that shit.

Since when do people have the right to customers? The very nature of an open marketplace is that popularity is a huge part of commercial success.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.


I'd never dream of firing an employee based on what they do in their own time at home. I'd especially never dream of firing someone for political speech, even more especially political speech which is the majority viewpoint at the time.

No wonder your side is winning.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby forward4 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

Summary of the viewpoints:

Opinion 1-
I believe homosexuality is wrong. This is different from racism, because racism is unfounded hatred. Homosexuality is wrong because it is written in my religious texts, it is untraditional, and does not produce offspring "naturally". The firing of this man is a double standard- had another person been fired for supporting homosexuals, everyone would be up in arms. The belief that homosexuality is wrong is a core belief of mine and it is wrong to tell me that my opinions and beliefs are wrong. Someone should be able to use his money as he sees fit.

Opinion 2-
This is bigotry, and like the racism of the past, wrong and evil. Homosexual people have a right to love whomever they choose, and supporting anti-gay groups is like supporting the KKK or another racist group. Gay people cannot choose who they love, so it should not be forced on them. This is inhumane. This man, while he did contribute to the open source community, is a bigot and is like the anti-black activists of old. You do have a right to your own opinions, but disliking homosexuality is akin to disliking black people because they're black.

I can understand both viewpoints. I lean toward the second, however, I don't believe a dislike of homosexuality is on par with racism. That said, it is an unreasonable opinion to have, because it is not a choice people make. I am bi, and grew up in an ultra religious conservative home- that should be proof.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Belial wrote:I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.


I'd never dream of firing an employee based on what they do in their own time at home. I'd especially never dream of firing someone for political speech, even more especially political speech which is the majority viewpoint at the time.

No wonder your side is winning.


He was the CEO. He was not "an employee", he was the public face of the company. The leader. And he stepped down because it turns out their customers didn't want to do business with homophobes.

Are you saying the customers shouldn't be able to make that decision? That I should never consider the ethics of the people I'm giving money to before I make the decision to give money to them?

Please explain to me exactly why that's a reasonable position to not only hold yourself, but expect of everyone else.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:59 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:I'd never dream of firing an employee based on what they do in their own time at home. I'd especially never dream of firing someone for political speech, even more especially political speech which is the majority viewpoint at the time.

No wonder your side is winning.

That you think we are winning just show how clueless you are. The left is getting one small victory in some states/countries legalizing gay marriage. We are just losing on torture, privacy, income equality, foreign policy, campaign finance reform, healthcare, education is regressing, religiosity is increasing, our science icons are scared of anti-evolution camps and their increase in influence so much that they feel compelled to debate them as if they are intellectual equals, police brutality and well just about everything. That you believe we are winning is depressing.

Oh wait, two states legalized pot. We've got some pot and some equal rights for non-hetero couples. Don't you hear those victory bells ringing?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:02 pm UTC

Having your homosexual employees feel disrespected by their boss is also a very good way to lose a lot of your work force. Lets not pretend the CEO position means his personal positions are irrelevant to the job.

There was a 10 day gap between the release of his donation and his resignation, yes? Presumably board members spoke to him and gave him a chance to explain himself, and presumably, he did so in a manner that led to his forced resignation.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:09 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Having your homosexual employees feel disrespected by their boss is also a very good way to lose a lot of your work force. Lets not pretend the CEO position means his personal positions are irrelevant to the job.

There was a 10 day gap between the release of his donation and his resignation, yes? Presumably board members spoke to him and gave him a chance to explain himself, and presumably, he did so in a manner that led to his forced resignation.


I am deeply honored and humbled by the CEO role. I’m also grateful for the messages of support. At the same time, I know there are concerns about my commitment to fostering equality and welcome for LGBT individuals at Mozilla. I hope to lay those concerns to rest, first by making a set of commitments to you. More important, I want to lay them to rest by actions and results.

A number of Mozillians, including LGBT individuals and allies, have stepped forward to offer guidance and assistance in this. I cannot thank you enough, and I ask for your ongoing help to make Mozilla a place of equality and welcome for all. Here are my commitments, and here’s what you can expect:

Active commitment to equality in everything we do, from employment to events to community-building.
Working with LGBT communities and allies, to listen and learn what does and doesn’t make Mozilla supportive and welcoming.
My ongoing commitment to our Community Participation Guidelines, our inclusive health benefits, our anti-discrimination policies, and the spirit that underlies all of these.
My personal commitment to work on new initiatives to reach out to those who feel excluded or who have been marginalized in ways that makes their contributing to Mozilla and to open source difficult. More on this last item below.


Brendan Eich made a commitment to work with people, and continued the Open Internet promise so that everyone can feel welcome of discussion on the Internet. Three Board Members quit, and the Chairwoman threw him under the bus in a very intolerantly worded statement.

It is clear to me who is refusing to work with who. Refusal to work with someone is the definition of intolerance, and I refuse to take part in it whether it comes from the left or the right. And I intend to call it out every time it happens.

Here's a hint: sacrificing the scapegoats to the altar of public relations is wrong. No matter your political opinion, it is simply wrong in every circumstance.

Zcorp wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:I'd never dream of firing an employee based on what they do in their own time at home. I'd especially never dream of firing someone for political speech, even more especially political speech which is the majority viewpoint at the time.

No wonder your side is winning.

That you think we are winning just show how clueless you are. The left is getting one small victory in some states/countries legalizing gay marriage. We are just losing on torture, privacy, income equality, foreign policy, campaign finance reform, healthcare, education is regressing, religiosity is increasing, our science icons are scared of anti-evolution camps and their increase in influence so much that they feel compelled to debate them as if they are intellectual equals, police brutality and well just about everything. That you believe we are winning is depressing.

Oh wait, two states legalized pot. We've got some pot and some equal rights for non-hetero couples. Don't you hear those victory bells ringing?


What the fuck does this have to do with Brendan Eich?

Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Am I the only person here who believes that "inclusiveness" means working with people you disagree with? Especially when both you and they have a common goal. (ie: working towards the Open Internet?)


If you and I disagree on whether I or people I care about are human beings deserving of rights?

Yeah, no, inclusiveness does not include working with you, and in fact, fuck hypothetical-you for trying to co-opt a term that basically meant "can we please have a place in society" to mean "can I please continue to try to oppress you even though the tide of society is turning against it?" This isn't a fucking disagreement about favorite sports teams or what color god's sneakers are. This is a group of people who spent most of recent history trying to marginalize others, in this case a person who actively contributed to the fight to strip others of their rights, suddenly getting upset because he found himself on the wrong side of history. Fuck him. Where the fuck was "inclusiveness" when he was making that decision? He manifestly doesn't believe everyone deserves a place in society, why should anyone bend over backwards to give him one?

Seriously, this "you're intolerant of my intolerance" rhetoric makes me sick to my ass.


Last time I checked, Brendan Eich has spent the last 15 years ensuring that all have an equal voice on the Internet.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
aoeu wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Right...you believe that I should be able to support Nazis, the KKK, and Child Rapists but because I'm a good programmer no one should refuse to work with me or stop purchasing what I'm selling.


On the contrary that is a well-accepted principle of democracy. It's also funny how you name niche groups, when B.E. was actually on the side of the majority.


It's a well-accepted principle of democracy that boycotts are wrong?

Over here (as well as a few US states) political activism is protected under employment law. And yes, the whole point of being a nation of laws is suppressing citizens' tribal instincts and substituting them with an actually efficient rule. And this was exactly an instance of those instincts. This picture sums up my sentiment: Image

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zcorp » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:20 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:What the fuck does this have to do with Brendan Eich?
Almost nothing, it was a tangent, one that would make more sense if you read the thread.

But as you missed this post:
Belial wrote:I am fundamentally uninterested in creating a society where all ideas, no matter how ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane, are accepted. And neither are the people who hold those ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane ideas. They only profess a desire for that sort of society because they realize that their positions are becoming untenable and they hope to be able to hold on long enough to, as you mention, "swing the pendulum the other way". Fuck them.

I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.

Yet, respond to Belial, you seemingly have no interest in actually reading the thread.
Last edited by Zcorp on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:21 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:20 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Refusal to work with someone is the definition of intolerance, and I refuse to take part in it whether it comes from the left or the right. And I intend to call it out every time it happens.


Nah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that donating money to the fight to deprive others of rights is the definition of intolerance. Refusing to work for or give money to someone because they've shown a willingness to spend the profits of my labor/custom directly on efforts to marginalize me or people I care about is just called having a sense of self-interest.

And people who tell you that you're obligated to help the people who are trying to oppress you? That you're obligated to directly contribute to your own marginalization? They are not your friends.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:29 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:
setzer777 wrote:
aoeu wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Right...you believe that I should be able to support Nazis, the KKK, and Child Rapists but because I'm a good programmer no one should refuse to work with me or stop purchasing what I'm selling.


On the contrary that is a well-accepted principle of democracy. It's also funny how you name niche groups, when B.E. was actually on the side of the majority.


It's a well-accepted principle of democracy that boycotts are wrong?

Over here (as well as a few US states) political activism is protected under employment law. And yes, the whole point of being a nation of laws is suppressing citizens' tribal instincts and substituting them with an actually efficient rule.


Right, that's an argument that Mozilla shouldn't have fired him. But unless you compel people to spend their money on a specific product, they can boycott anything they want. It's not a well-accepted principle of democracy that people shouldn't refrain from purchasing or using certain products on the basis of whatever feelings they have about the company.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby forward4 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:30 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Refusal to work with someone is the definition of intolerance, and I refuse to take part in it whether it comes from the left or the right. And I intend to call it out every time it happens.


Nah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that donating money to the fight to deprive others of rights is the definition of intolerance. Refusing to work for or give money to someone because they've shown a willingness to spend the profits of my labor/custom directly on efforts to marginalize me or people I care about is just called having a sense of self-interest.

And people who tell you that you're obligated to help the people who are trying to oppress you? That you're obligated to directly contribute to your own marginalization? They are not your friends.

I can imagine belial just whispering "stop all the nonsense" over and over in this thread
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:31 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Belial wrote:I am fundamentally uninterested in creating a society where all ideas, no matter how ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane, are accepted. And neither are the people who hold those ludicrous, bigoted, and inhumane ideas. They only profess a desire for that sort of society because they realize that their positions are becoming untenable and they hope to be able to hold on long enough to, as you mention, "swing the pendulum the other way". Fuck them.

I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.

Yet, respond to Belial, you seemingly have no interest in actually reading the thread.


Obviously, these are good ideals. And frankly, I'm one to believe that an Open Internet where everyone can share their thoughts is a good idea. The difference between me and Belial always comes back to the same thing however. He always seems more adamant and more pleased about spilt blood. It was like this with almost every topic we get into a heated discussion about.

Belial wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Refusal to work with someone is the definition of intolerance, and I refuse to take part in it whether it comes from the left or the right. And I intend to call it out every time it happens.


Nah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that donating money to the fight to deprive others of rights is the definition of intolerance. Refusing to work for or give money to someone because they've shown a willingness to spend the profits of my labor/custom directly on efforts to marginalize me or people I care about is just called having a sense of self-interest.

And people who tell you that you're obligated to help the people who are trying to oppress you? That you're obligated to directly contribute to your own marginalization? They are not your friends.


I don't believe in "friends" and "enemies". I believe that people are people who don't deserved to be marginalized for their viewpoints. Otherwise, people are people. You work together when you agree, you work against each other when you disagree.

*Sigh*. Its been a philosophical difference that has divided us on every single issue that I've ever debated on this forum. I don't think we're gonna get anywhere on this one. Its as if when people "Sin" against your philosophy, they deserve to be thrown out of society. Its not a viewpoint that I agree with.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:37 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I don't believe in "friends" and "enemies". I believe that people are people who don't deserved to be marginalized for their viewpoints. Otherwise, people are people. You work together when you agree, you work against each other when you disagree.
I think we should step back and point out what exactly Eich was supporting. He wasn't simply stating "I don't understand a man finding another man attractive, yuck, making out with dudes is weird to me", he was providing financial support to an organization seeking to prevent homosexuals from getting equal rights. To draw a parallel to racism again, Eich wasn't stating "I don't understand why anyone would marry a negress, why, they're fine folk, but I wouldn't marry one!" he was lobbying Washington to prevent interracial marriage.

This isn't just someone getting squashed for an opinion, this is someone suffering the ramifications of their actions. I agree, we should work with people who hold different views, and learn to accept different views and people. That ends as soon as their actions are hindering your or others freedoms. They *are* your enemies. Eich *is* your enemy, if you believe in equality.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby morriswalters » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:39 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Are you going to run everybody out of a job who supported prop 8?


To paraphrase TMT in the other thread: I don't like doing business with homophobes. I don't think anyone else should either. If that means it becomes unprofitable to ever put homophobes in places of visible power in most companies, that it is unwise to be homophobic in the business sphere? That there comes to be a slowly sinking glass ceiling for bigots?

Good. They can join all the other hate groups in the land of the unemployable.
Then don't. But for the third time now you have asserted that support of prop 8 makes you a homophobe. Then how many homophobes exist in California? And how many do you think you work and transact business with? For the record that is about 7 million people, and composed of just those who voted. And unless you are less intelligent than I believe you to be, you should know that there is no glass ceiling for bigots of any type. Do you think that racists ever truly went away. The ceiling is called a glass one because you can't see it.
Belial wrote:I am interested in creating a society based on good ideas. Like the idea that maybe we're all people and we all deserve the same rights (and that anyone who disagrees with that incredibly basic statement is welcome to say so, but everyone else is welcome to tell them to go fuck themselves and shun them like the assholes they are). I am unwilling to stop pushing for those good ideas because the people with shitty ideas think we should be tolerant of every idea no matter how awful, a stance they only adopt now that they're losing their chokehold on the narrative.
How marvelously naive. And ridiculously laughable. Your lifestyle is a product of suffering for all those people you don't see. From the people working under adverse conditions to mine the minerals in your smart phone, to the exorbitant waste of food from having eateries on every corner, and fully stocked supermarkets who throw away food because they stock more than you can buy. And shunning is the creation of those groups that you seem to hate. Religion being one. Good ideas are in the eye of the beholder.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:41 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:And shunning is the creation of those groups that you seem to hate. Religion being one. Good ideas are in the eye of the beholder.


Shunning didn't exist before those groups?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:44 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I don't believe in "friends" and "enemies". I believe that people are people who don't deserved to be marginalized for their viewpoints. Otherwise, people are people. You work together when you agree, you work against each other when you disagree.
I think we should step back and point out what exactly Eich was supporting. He wasn't simply stating "I don't understand a man finding another man attractive, yuck, making out with dudes is weird to me", he was providing financial support to an organization seeking to prevent homosexuals from getting equal rights. To draw a parallel to racism again, Eich wasn't stating "I don't understand why anyone would marry a negress, why, they're fine folk, but I wouldn't marry one!" he was lobbying Washington to prevent interracial marriage.

This isn't just someone getting squashed for an opinion, this is someone suffering the ramifications of their actions. I agree, we should work with people who hold different views, and learn to accept different views and people. That ends as soon as their actions are hindering your or others freedoms. They *are* your enemies. Eich *is* your enemy, if you believe in equality.


By your definition, then I should consider you and Belial my enemies. You are hindering my philosophy that the world should ultimately become a meritocracy, where people are judged on the works that they do as opposed to the silly political opinions that ultimately don't matter in the long run. (Prop8 was overturned by the Surpreme Court ya know. His political donation is completely worthless and harmless now).

But I don't just make "enemies" of everyone I disagree with. I try to be tolerant of others, even when I fully disagree with their viewpoints.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Then don't. But for the third time now you have asserted that support of prop 8 makes you a homophobe. Then how many homophobes exist in California? And how many do you think you work and transact business with?


Yes, I am aware that I unavoidably do business with homophobes on a regular basis. Also racists, misogynists, transphobes, and all other manner of terrible people. Much of it for the simple reason that most of them don't wear signs that say "I am terrible, give me your money".

What does that have to do with my decision to withhold my custom when I become aware of a specific person's terribleness? To choose to give that custom instead to someone who isn't terrible?

Put more succinctly: just what the hell is your point?

How marvelously naive. And ridiculously laughable. Your lifestyle is a product of suffering for all those people you don't see. From the people working under adverse conditions to mine the minerals in your smart phone, to the exorbitant waste of food from having eateries on every corner, and fully stocked supermarkets who throw away food because they stock more than you can buy.


"Because a lot of things are bad, choosing to make some things better is wrong. You should just keep letting everything be awful or I'll call you naive".

KnightExemplar wrote:By your definition, then I should consider you and Belial my enemies.


Yes, I think I covered that already, under "people who tell you you're obligated to contribute, by finance and labor, to your own oppression"
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:54 pm UTC

Belial wrote:"Because a lot of things are bad, choosing to make some things better is wrong. You should just keep letting everything be awful or I'll call you naive".


This is a bit of a tangent, but it's interesting that hypocrisy has become the chief sin to a lot of people. Better to abandon any principle rather than apply it inconsistently.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:57 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:By your definition, then I should consider you and Belial my enemies. You are hindering my philosophy that the world should ultimately become a meritocracy, where people are judged on the works that they do as opposed to the silly political opinions that ultimately don't matter in the long run. (Prop8 was overturned by the Surpreme Court ya know. His political donation is completely worthless and harmless now).

But I don't just make "enemies" of everyone I disagree with. I try to be tolerant of others, even when I fully disagree with their viewpoints.
I'm not sure how you can hold that Eich is a supporter of meritocracy, given that he contributed to inequality. If you were a believer in meritocracy (which I believe you to be!) you would be outraged that someone stood in it's way, not outraged that doing so had negative ramifications.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:59 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I don't believe in "friends" and "enemies". I believe that people are people who don't deserved to be marginalized for their viewpoints. Otherwise, people are people. You work together when you agree, you work against each other when you disagree.
I think we should step back and point out what exactly Eich was supporting. He wasn't simply stating "I don't understand a man finding another man attractive, yuck, making out with dudes is weird to me", he was providing financial support to an organization seeking to prevent homosexuals from getting equal rights. To draw a parallel to racism again, Eich wasn't stating "I don't understand why anyone would marry a negress, why, they're fine folk, but I wouldn't marry one!" he was lobbying Washington to prevent interracial marriage.

This isn't just someone getting squashed for an opinion, this is someone suffering the ramifications of their actions. I agree, we should work with people who hold different views, and learn to accept different views and people. That ends as soon as their actions are hindering your or others freedoms. They *are* your enemies. Eich *is* your enemy, if you believe in equality.


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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:00 pm UTC

Based on our discussions in the past, you guys are supportive of various political opinions I find very unsavory. I do believe I disagree with Belial on basically every single political topic to date. I do remind you, I'm a Roman Catholic, and I can draw upon any number of hot topics where your political viewpoints "oppress" me. I'll avoid mentioning them by name, so that we can remain on topic here however... but use your imagination and take your pick at any political viewpoint you want.

And as a Roman Catholic, that means that you guys ought to consider me your enemy. (Yes, I financially support the Church. Just this past weekend I made my weekly donation).

So yes, you and I are now enemies by your and Belial's definition. Or perhaps, "I'm officially Belial's enemy by his definition". But I'd like to believe that you and I can work together despite our differences. That you and I can continue discussing things, regardless of IMO irrelevant political affiliations.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

@Orm: I'm not sure how to explain it more plainly. Do you acknowledge that homosexual rights are presently lower than heterosexual rights?
KnightExemplar wrote:And as a Roman Catholic, that means that you guys ought to consider me your enemy. (Yes, I financially support the Church. Just this past weekend I made my weekly donation)
The difference is I'm not buying anything from you or your organization (that I'm aware of anyway). Knowing now that you find things I hold important abhorrent enough to provide financial support to an organization actively (I think?) fighting against my views, you better believe I would choose to not give you my business.

Just like knowing that I'm pro-choice, pro-equality, pro-keeping religion out of the science classroom and taxing it while we're at it, means you probably wouldn't want to buy stuff from me.

EDIT: The tolerance part on our behalf is that we can both communicate with one another on issues aside from the things we disagree on. This is fine for talking to people, but having a conversation with you, even if I find you pleasant, is not the same as supporting your beliefs. This is of course a two way road.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:10 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Based on our discussions in the past, you guys are supportive of various political opinions I find very unsavory. I do believe I disagree with Belial on basically every single political topic to date. I do remind you, I'm a Roman Catholic, and I can draw upon any number of hot topics where your political viewpoints "oppress" me. I'll avoid mentioning them by name, so that we can remain on topic here however... but use your imagination and take your pick at any political viewpoint you want.

And as a Roman Catholic, that means that you guys ought to consider me your enemy. (Yes, I financially support the Church. Just this past weekend I made my weekly donation).

So yes, you and I are now enemies by your and Belial's definition. Or perhaps, "I'm officially Belial's enemy by his definition". But I'd like to believe that you and I can work together despite our differences. That you and I can continue discussing things, regardless of IMO irrelevant political affiliations.


You don't understand how supporting an organization and belief system that is directly and currently harming people who I know and care about might result in me finding it hard to work with you? Or maybe not wanting to associate with you?


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