[WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female thor

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:14 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Sort of. The superhuman serum definitely is replicated...but being at "peak physical condition" is...good, but not amazingly special in the Marvel Universe. Super-strength is a particularly common power. Cap's leadership skills are also not particularly serum derived. The serum is less important to Cap's origin than say, gamma radiation is to the hulk, or the spider bite is to spiderman, because he just isn't that ridiculously superpowered.
I think you're incorrect about this; Cap'n is for all intents and purposes on the same strength range as Spiderman, Iron Man in suit, Wolverine, etc. The super soldier serum is 100% absolutely important to his origin, because without it, he's just a skinny dude with a good attitude.

Cap'n America's super strength is NOT just 'can benchpress more than you're average human' it's 'Can wrestle with Thor'.


Nah. Marvel lists this sort of thing, because it's standard fare for arguing. Cap can indeed max bench press 1,200 lbs. Which is pretty impressive, yeah, but Spider-Man can do 20 tons, Iron Man can do 100 tons, Thor and Hulk are far beyond that(basically arbitrary).

In Marvel terms, Cap is strong, but that strength isn't particularly defining. Likewise, he's agile, sure...but against specialists in agility like, say, Quicksilver....it's hilariously disparate.

Cap is a leader. That's what makes him important. He's a leader and a symbol.

SecondTalon wrote:Basically, I'm saying that this is so incredibly common in comics and has been done long enough that complaining about it is kinda like complaining about the musical instrument strike in horror films when something nonthreatening happens to a character early in a film.


Oh, lazy writing and cheap shticks for viewership are indeed very, very old in comics. That doesn't make such complaints invalid, though. Mostly, it just makes them common. It's not surprising, but neither is it particularly laudable. Making "girl version of popular male superhero" isn't new, exciting or a particularly good point for equality. Especially when you know they're gonna be tossed aside in the inevitable reset later. Nothing about that is good.

No doubt the transformation will somehow also impair Thor's ability to wear non-revealing clothing, because comics.

mosc wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:X-Men were always gay though. I mean, in terms of their origin. They discovered they were "mutants" at puberty, they hid and tried to "pass" among their "normal" classmates, their real enemies were never Magneto's group but arch-conservative Christians who wanted to either kill them all or use some sort of "reparative therapy" on them, they started dying of AIDS before it passed to non mutants, etc. Other minority issues were added in there as well, such as Malcolm X/Magneto vs Dr King/Xavier, angry genocide survivors, etc.

Minority in general I would say. I have a hard time stretching that to Gay. I think the mutant/non-mutant thing was orignally equal parts superhero/non-superhero and an american minority/majority cultural thing. The 70s x-men is trying to be very multicultural in a very overt way. I'm sorry but that reads a little tau of poo to me.


The Xmen are mostly one long metaphor for gay folks...at least, they've attempted this for quite some time. It's pretty overt, yeah. You have very obvious overt references like the "Have you tried not being a mutant" from the movies, but the subtext has been there for some time. Shit, Northstar was an x-man in the 70s. Not the most overt reference for a while, and sometimes references in comics were pretty...ugh(Aids, of course, can always be used as a stand-in for gay, right?) About par for the course for social activism in comics, though. At least a lot of the older stuff can be blamed on the Comic Code, mostly anyway.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:23 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
sam_i_am wrote:
Fancy wrote:So they will be making a black captain america, completely trashing the original story.

And a female thor. Thor is a Scandinavian MALE name. This is gonna be great.

Anyone want to chip in and start a discussion or just let this die?



Some people don't know this but the Thor character wasn't actually invented by marvel. (I'm serious. People who didn't know that exist. I've met some)

If they make Thor female, it would probably be a little more difficult to make it tie in as well with Norse mythology.
Ah, so the frog thing is part of the Eddas?


At least the Female Loki thing is part of it. (Female Horse Loki saved the sun and the moon from Hrimthurs by invalidating the bet Hrimthurs made) I'm being facetious btw. Its too funny for me to leave alone :D

EDIT: Oh, you were the one who posted the female horse gif earlier... You probably already know.

Comics don't have to make sense. But those who have been following comics groan collectively whenever this sort of thing happens. It is extremely rare for comic-book writers to get female characters right, and its even rarer when said characters are cheaply made female counterparts to the original. I'm willing to be proven wrong of course, but I've seen this thing all too often. The first issue, Female-Thor will demonstrate her strength in some epic fight. Some character is going to comment on how her strength hasn't diminished despite being female... and then the story will fall flat soon after that. A few months later, they will abort Female-Thor and redeem or reboot the original.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:31 am UTC

In the US the gay community got hit with AIDS first. At least that's when it became known. Technically the Haitian-American community got it first, but it wasn't known until later. In the comics, the Mutants got the mutant-AIDS for quite some time before it spread to regular humans. The authors said the disease would be cured when AIDS was cured, which after years of no cure just became a rather massive restriction.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:44 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Perhaps, but it reeks of blatantly lazy female characters like Supergirl and whatever. I do like Batgirl / Cassandra Cain and Spidergirl... these actually a decent story. But overall, female counterparts to male superheroes are just done lazily.

Its one thing to make a new female all-star character. IE: Wonder Woman. Its another thing to just lazily make a character into a female, especially when drawing from source material (Norse Mythology) that has plenty of strong females to choose from.

See again - where were you in 2008? Or earlier?


You're pinging me on this hard on this... so you deserve a proper response.

I haven't read much Thor specifically, so I can't tell you much first-hand. But based on my research, it looks like female-Loki is done correctly. Female-Loki is true Loki. Its not some new character, "old Loki" didn't lose his powers and had to give it off to someone else... "Old Loki" isn't going to make a comeback to supplant female Loki any time soon. In fact, Female Loki is full Loki... no and/or/buts about it. He may switch bodies to a male one again in the future, but she's no cheap knockoff. (S)he's the real deal.

And as been brought up in this thread... in true Norse legend... Loki takes the form of a female horse to save the Sun and the Moon. So... it really isn't outside the realm of Norse Mythology for Loki to genderswap for the heck of it.

EDIT: And it should be noted, that I have a number of genderswap characters I am fond of. King Arturia "Saber" Pendragon (aka: Genderswap King Arthur Pendragon) from Fate/Stay is an awesome character (despite the fanservice and H-nature of the source material). So as long as it is handled well, I'll be fine with it. I just don't have much hope in Marvel's ability here with Female-Thor.

EDIT2: Female characters don't have to be Alpha-male emulators all the time. You know... they can deal with problems like... Sayaka's Bus Scene (anime: Madoka Magika spoilers). Even when equipped with superhuman strength, regeneration and speed, what brings superheroes (or anime characters) back to us is when they connect with the audience. I think this is where X-Men really shines, because its often about society's ills and misfits. But outside of X-Men (and similar stories within this niche... such as Runaways), those sorts of issues are rarely hashed out or explored.

And what do you know. X-Men has a number of good, non-WASP characters. Storm is more than "just" a black woman, she's STORM. The deputy leader of the X-Men... and representation of leadership and strength. It is neither her blackness nor her womanhood alone that make her interesting... its the fact that she's just a well done character.

And thats what comic books need more of. Good characters who happen to be Black, Female, or whatever. Strong-arming it like Female-Thor almost never works out.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:46 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Ah, so the frog thing is part of the Eddas?

Don't forget the dead horse alien with Mjolnir Jr and a redneck name. Who was so worthy of the hammer that he and Thor got into a fistfight over it and Thor lost.

I'm pretty sure that's before Baldur dies, but after the Wolf eats the sun, right? I'm kinda rusty on my Norse Mythology and the Ragnarok thing.

KnightExemplar wrote:I haven't read much Thor specifically, so I can't tell you much first-hand. But based on my research, it looks like female-Loki is done correctly. Female-Loki is true Loki. Its not some new character, "old Loki" didn't lose his powers and had to give it off to someone else... "Old Loki" isn't going to make a comeback to supplant female Loki any time soon. In fact, Female Loki is full Loki... no and/or/buts about it. He may switch bodies to a male one again in the future, but she's no cheap knockoff. (S)he's the real deal.

And as been brought up in this thread... in true Norse legend... Loki takes the form of a female horse to save the Sun and the Moon. So... it really isn't outside the realm of Norse Mythology for Loki to genderswap for the heck of it.
But this isn't Norse Mythology. This is Marvel Comics. Thor being unworthy of his own hammer (and someone else using it for a bit) these days is right up there with Amnesia in Soap Operas.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:00 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I haven't read much Thor specifically, so I can't tell you much first-hand. But based on my research, it looks like female-Loki is done correctly. Female-Loki is true Loki. Its not some new character, "old Loki" didn't lose his powers and had to give it off to someone else... "Old Loki" isn't going to make a comeback to supplant female Loki any time soon. In fact, Female Loki is full Loki... no and/or/buts about it. He may switch bodies to a male one again in the future, but she's no cheap knockoff. (S)he's the real deal.

And as been brought up in this thread... in true Norse legend... Loki takes the form of a female horse to save the Sun and the Moon. So... it really isn't outside the realm of Norse Mythology for Loki to genderswap for the heck of it.
But this isn't Norse Mythology. This is Marvel Comics. Thor being unworthy of his own hammer (and someone else using it for a bit) these days is right up there with Amnesia in Soap Operas.


Yes, I'm well aware that comic logic doesn't always have to make sense. And yes, I know Mjolnir is the source of "Marvel Thor" power. That's not my problem. My problem... is that Female Thor is almost explicitly a "Oh snap, we forgot about women. Lets genderswap someone and call it a day". Its lazy and its blatant pandering.

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/07/16/marve ... -new-suit/
“There was a time about two and a half years ago, when we were canceling X-23, and I realized that was the last of our female-helmed titles,” notes Alonso.


After all, X-23 was basically "Female Wolverine" who often wore skimpy outfits. She was there so that Marvel proved to the world that they didn't forget about women... and thats about it. Seeing Female-Thor start off from this perspective just does not give me much confidence in the writer's ability.

EDIT: Besides, aren't most of Thor's girls the "Damsel in Distress" variety? Making the leap from DiD to Superheroine is no easy task (for the writers)...
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Paul in Saudi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:07 am UTC

I blame Obama.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:02 pm UTC

The trick is to just not bother with DC or Marvel. PLENTY of web comics out there that actually write realistic female characters that aren't just knockoffs of the male characters. Often because many of the writers work with women, or yaknow, just might be women themselves. In proportional numbers to the population at large. Absurd, isn't it?

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:09 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:After all, X-23 was basically "Female Wolverine" who often wore skimpy outfits. She was there so that Marvel proved to the world that they didn't forget about women... and thats about it. Seeing Female-Thor start off from this perspective just does not give me much confidence in the writer's ability.
Ugh, X-23 was super lame too; IIRC, she was mute and often used her power of childish sexiness to get to her marks.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby omgryebread » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Yes, I'm well aware that comic logic doesn't always have to make sense. And yes, I know Mjolnir is the source of "Marvel Thor" power. That's not my problem. My problem... is that Female Thor is almost explicitly a "Oh snap, we forgot about women. Lets genderswap someone and call it a day". Its lazy and its blatant pandering.
I don't get it. Was Beta Ray Bill blatant pandering to horse-like aliens? Or is it only pandering if the swap is to a woman?

The problem with there being plenty of new female characters they could introduce is that Marvel/DC don't introduce new characters. Which makes some sense, since their industry isn't expanding. So Marvel has the choice of either placing women in the roles of established heroes or just not having two women. Neither solution is perfect, but one is clearly better.

It is an unfortunate symptom of the fact that the Big American Comics never end. Captain America is older than my parents, and we're still getting stories about him. Great character, but the idea of endless variations on stories about one character means you're never getting truly new things.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:24 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Yes, I'm well aware that comic logic doesn't always have to make sense. And yes, I know Mjolnir is the source of "Marvel Thor" power. That's not my problem. My problem... is that Female Thor is almost explicitly a "Oh snap, we forgot about women. Lets genderswap someone and call it a day". Its lazy and its blatant pandering.
I don't get it. Was Beta Ray Bill blatant pandering to horse-like aliens? Or is it only pandering if the swap is to a woman?

The problem with there being plenty of new female characters they could introduce is that Marvel/DC don't introduce new characters. Which makes some sense, since their industry isn't expanding. So Marvel has the choice of either placing women in the roles of established heroes or just not having two women. Neither solution is perfect, but one is clearly better.

It is an unfortunate symptom of the fact that the Big American Comics never end. Captain America is older than my parents, and we're still getting stories about him. Great character, but the idea of endless variations on stories about one character means you're never getting truly new things.


Or you know... they can promote one of the Runaways to Avenger status (Say... Nico Minoru / Sister Grimm). Marvel isn't completely devoid of good female characters. In fact, there are plenty of good, solid female characters in both DC and Marvel. I've already gone over Granny Goodness (a villain), Storm and the Runaways as examples.

The solution to "No females in the Avengers" should be as simple as promoting Storm, Jean Grey, Invisible Woman to Avenger status.

Or you know... when they actually do make new characters (like X-23), they can do a good job with them so that they actually deserve a spot on the A-list.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:36 pm UTC

I've read a lot of news on the subject, and what the writers said about it. A few clarifications:

- It's not exactly a gender swap per se, it is a new person becoming worthy of wielding Mjolnir, while the old Thor is not. It just so happens this person is a (gasp!) a woman.
- The writers don't intend it to be temporary. It is at least a very very long term change. The current Avengers Original Sin tie-in, you see Thor in the future, and he mentions remembering when he was worthy of holding Mjolnir. Marvel has been building to something like this for some time, and the writers say so in interviews about it.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:43 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:I've read a lot of news on the subject, and what the writers said about it. A few clarifications:

- It's not exactly a gender swap per se, it is a new person becoming worthy of wielding Mjolnir, while the old Thor is not. It just so happens this person is a (gasp!) a woman.


And X-23 wasn't a gender-swap of Wolverine. She was just his broken genetic code where the Y-chromosome couldn't be reproduced. So they took two of Wolverine's X-chromosomes and made a new character. Bam, X-23 (the 23rd attempt at the Weapon X project)

Seriously though, X-23 is a poorly done gender-swap Wolverine. Thats what I'm worried about with this new Female Thor.

- The writers don't intend it to be temporary. It is at least a very very long term change. The current Avengers Original Sin tie-in, you see Thor in the future, and he mentions remembering when he was worthy of holding Mjolnir. Marvel has been building to something like this for some time, and the writers say so in interviews about it.


I don't keep up with Thor... so I hope you're right. I just don't expect it to be very good.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:49 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
omgryebread wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Yes, I'm well aware that comic logic doesn't always have to make sense. And yes, I know Mjolnir is the source of "Marvel Thor" power. That's not my problem. My problem... is that Female Thor is almost explicitly a "Oh snap, we forgot about women. Lets genderswap someone and call it a day". Its lazy and its blatant pandering.
I don't get it. Was Beta Ray Bill blatant pandering to horse-like aliens? Or is it only pandering if the swap is to a woman?

The problem with there being plenty of new female characters they could introduce is that Marvel/DC don't introduce new characters. Which makes some sense, since their industry isn't expanding. So Marvel has the choice of either placing women in the roles of established heroes or just not having two women. Neither solution is perfect, but one is clearly better.

It is an unfortunate symptom of the fact that the Big American Comics never end. Captain America is older than my parents, and we're still getting stories about him. Great character, but the idea of endless variations on stories about one character means you're never getting truly new things.


Or you know... they can promote one of the Runaways to Avenger status (Say... Nico Minoru / Sister Grimm). Marvel isn't completely devoid of good female characters. In fact, there are plenty of good, solid female characters in both DC and Marvel. I've already gone over Granny Goodness (a villain), Storm and the Runaways as examples.

The solution to "No females in the Avengers" should be as simple as promoting Storm, Jean Grey, Invisible Woman to Avenger status.

Or you know... when they actually do make new characters (like X-23), they can do a good job with them so that they actually deserve a spot on the A-list.


There have been a ton of canonical females in Avengers...

PolakoVoador wrote:- The writers don't intend it to be temporary. It is at least a very very long term change. The current Avengers Original Sin tie-in, you see Thor in the future, and he mentions remembering when he was worthy of holding Mjolnir. Marvel has been building to something like this for some time, and the writers say so in interviews about it.


Yes, yes, and captain american died totes for real this time, and THIS DC crossover really will set everything right and not be rolled back.

Comic folks assuring me that THIS time it ain't a cheap trick ain't worth much.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:03 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:- The writers don't intend it to be temporary. It is at least a very very long term change. The current Avengers Original Sin tie-in, you see Thor in the future, and he mentions remembering when he was worthy of holding Mjolnir. Marvel has been building to something like this for some time, and the writers say so in interviews about it.


Yes, yes, and captain american died totes for real this time, and THIS DC crossover really will set everything right and not be rolled back.

Comic folks assuring me that THIS time it ain't a cheap trick ain't worth much.


Of course almost nothing is reeeeaally definitive in comics, but my point, or rather the writers point, was that this is a natural development of the story they've been writing and also something to be at least medium to long term. Again, this is the official position from Marvel writers, I'm not sure this will stick, but I sure as hell hope it does.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tirian » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:29 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:I'm not sure this will stick, but I sure as hell hope it does.


I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But history tells us that the next EPIC CHANGE YOUR FAVORITE HERO WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN will happen in a year and be a reversion to the mean. According to Wikipedia, Avengers 2 will be released on May 1, 2015. On that day, Stan Lee isn't going to be reflecting wistfully on when he used to tell stories about people who are racking up new box office records. His writers will be artfully telling stories about how Falcon returned to the second tier and She-Thor back into oblivion as the rightful bearers of those mantles stepped up to reclaim them.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Yablo » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:21 pm UTC

First of all, I should add a disclaimer: <I've never really been a fan of comic books or comic book movies to the same extent that many of my friends are.>

I'm all for a black Captain America ... or Asian, Hispanic, Native American, whatever. They could even make Captain America a female, trans, etc ... To me, the only thing that absolutely has to stay is the "America" part. Captain America can be anyone or anything, as long as it's American and stands for traditional American values (if there even really is such a thing). Basically, Captain America is personified American patriotism. Keep that, and you'll get no complaint from me.

In a somewhat ironic contrast, I do have a fairly strong objection to a female Thor. This seems to me like an unnecessary change for the sake of change, or more probably for the sake of image or even political agenda. There are so many females in Norse mythology that could easily make an interesting and fascinating comic book hero. The same can be said for almost any other mythology. There is absolutely zero real value to making this change.

Personally, I think it would be amusing if they combined the two ideas and went for something like a black, female Captain Scandinavia. I would probably read/watch that.

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Wait. Did that seriously happen? If so, then despite the fact that I've never been much of a comic book fan, I'm quite glad I had the opportunity to read that well before the movie was made. I enjoyed them both. I have fond memories of being literally the only person in the theater laughing when the Comedian said anything at all.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Sizik » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
firechicago wrote:Or trashed the way that when the Watchmen movie came out they rounded up every single extant copy of the comic book and burned them in a massive bonfire to make sure that no one could read any version of the story other than the movie?


Wait. Did that seriously happen? If so, then despite the fact that I've never been much of a comic book fan, I'm quite glad I had the opportunity to read that well before the movie was made. I enjoyed them both. I have fond memories of being literally the only person in the theater laughing when the Comedian said anything at all.


firechicago actually said wrote:Trashed in what way? Trashed the way they killed off Superman in the 90's and now he's permanently dead and they've never done another story about him since? Or trashed the way that when the Watchmen movie came out they rounded up every single extant copy of the comic book and burned them in a massive bonfire to make sure that no one could read any version of the story other than the movie?


I'm not entirely sure, but my working hypothesis based on a guesstimate of a conjecture, is that it's intended as hyperbolic sarcasm.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:30 pm UTC

I'm aware of no such roundup, and they certainly don't have my copy. Presumably it was indeed hyperbole, intent to proclaim that the original work is still just as good, and the new work, even if terrible, does not devalue it, so you shouldn't complain about it or some such.

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can complain about rubbish simply because it's rubbish. If they are cashing in on the nostalgia of something I like, then yes...that's annoying. *glares in the general direction of Michael Bay* I'm gonna complain about it.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby firechicago » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm aware of no such roundup, and they certainly don't have my copy. Presumably it was indeed hyperbole, intent to proclaim that the original work is still just as good, and the new work, even if terrible, does not devalue it, so you shouldn't complain about it or some such.

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can complain about rubbish simply because it's rubbish. If they are cashing in on the nostalgia of something I like, then yes...that's annoying. *glares in the general direction of Michael Bay* I'm gonna complain about it.

The point is not to say "don't complain about it." The point is to complain about what, (if anything) is actually wrong. The quote I was responding to said that a female Thor "completely trashed the original story." Which is manifestly false, as my sarcastic hyperbole was meant to point out.

Female Thor may be a terrible idea, but if so, I'd like to actually hear an argument as to why it is a terrible idea. And even if it's a good idea, the implementation (i.e. the actual writing and art) might be terrible, but to argue that, you would actually have to have seen the writing and art, which no one here has. Simply saying that changing the premise "trashes the original story" is both factually untrue, and the laziest form of the knee-jerk "They changed it, therefore it sucks" argument.

(And for the record, I have no problem with Michael Bay cashing in on nostalgia. I have a problem with the fact that Michael Bay doesn't seem to understand what made the original Transformers good, and I have an even bigger problem with the fact that Michael Bay makes terrible movies that actually make the people watching them dumber, but have no problem with the cashing in on nostalgia.)

TL,DR: If something is shitty say that it is shitty. Don't tell me that X is shitty purely because it is different from some related thing Y. And don't tell me that by being different, X has ruined Y, when Y is still perfectly good on its own.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Nork » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:23 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:(And for the record, I have no problem with Michael Bay cashing in on nostalgia. I have a problem with the fact that Michael Bay doesn't seem to understand what made the original Transformers good, and I have an even bigger problem with the fact that Michael Bay makes terrible movies that actually make the people watching them dumber, but have no problem with the cashing in on nostalgia.)

After trying to re-watch the Transformers cartoon a while back, I don't think it's Michael Bay's fault. I think it's my fault for not being 12 anymore.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:38 pm UTC

I'm curious what you think made the original Transformers good. Because lemme tell you, it wasn't a lack of epic robots Transforming.

I think Michael Bay films were more or less exactly what the TV Series and Transformers the Movie (the animated one) were about, minus, of course, the emphasis on the human drama + whatsherfaces hot ass.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:12 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I'm aware of no such roundup, and they certainly don't have my copy. Presumably it was indeed hyperbole, intent to proclaim that the original work is still just as good, and the new work, even if terrible, does not devalue it, so you shouldn't complain about it or some such.

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can complain about rubbish simply because it's rubbish. If they are cashing in on the nostalgia of something I like, then yes...that's annoying. *glares in the general direction of Michael Bay* I'm gonna complain about it.

The point is not to say "don't complain about it." The point is to complain about what, (if anything) is actually wrong. The quote I was responding to said that a female Thor "completely trashed the original story." Which is manifestly false, as my sarcastic hyperbole was meant to point out.

Female Thor may be a terrible idea, but if so, I'd like to actually hear an argument as to why it is a terrible idea. And even if it's a good idea, the implementation (i.e. the actual writing and art) might be terrible, but to argue that, you would actually have to have seen the writing and art, which no one here has. Simply saying that changing the premise "trashes the original story" is both factually untrue, and the laziest form of the knee-jerk "They changed it, therefore it sucks" argument.


Nonsense. I do not need to experience something in full to judge it. I can look at, say, the long history of similar gender-bending in comics, and realize that it's pretty much all been terrible and conclude that this is highly probable to follow the same pattern. It's a cheap trick for attention/publicity/readership that will be undone once those things fade.

And yes, a sequel can indeed crap on the original story, and the unfortunate associations created by it can diminish your enjoyment of the original. See also, the xkcd comic regarding the lack of sequels for the matrix.

(And for the record, I have no problem with Michael Bay cashing in on nostalgia. I have a problem with the fact that Michael Bay doesn't seem to understand what made the original Transformers good, and I have an even bigger problem with the fact that Michael Bay makes terrible movies that actually make the people watching them dumber, but have no problem with the cashing in on nostalgia.)

TL,DR: If something is shitty say that it is shitty. Don't tell me that X is shitty purely because it is different from some related thing Y. And don't tell me that by being different, X has ruined Y, when Y is still perfectly good on its own.


Something that is merely shitty...meh. Something that was loved, and turned shitty, is worse.

My personal beef with him stems primarily from the oncoming TMNT, which looks to be frigging god-awful.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:My personal beef with him stems primarily from the oncoming TMNT, which looks to be frigging god-awful.
In what ways? It looks pretty awesome to me, and I'm a huge TMNT fan.

People get all bent out of shape over this notion of 'things I liked when I was a kid are sacrosanct!' when in fact, they were pretty rough around the edges then.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Whizbang » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:36 pm UTC

I believe the effect can be summed up nicely by this Dave Attell quote.

Dave Attell wrote:Remember when you were young and you thought your dad was Superman? And then you grew up and realized he's just a drunk who wears a cape.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:08 pm UTC

Yeah, but most of the treatment we've seen of these childhood stories has been pretty true to them. Bay's Transformers focused on Megan Fox being hot and a bunch of humans being 'MURICAN! but by in large still had the central conflict of GIANT FUCKING TRANFORMING ROBOTS THAT ARE AWESOME fighting one another. Aside from the blacksploitation bots, which, mind you, weren't really a new feature of the series, I felt the personalities and characterization of the Transformers was pretty spot on.

I *still* get weepy and patriotic and brave whenever Optimus Prime says anything.

From the trailers, it looks like the TMNT movie is doing the same. Anyone who knows anything about the TMNT knows their personalities, and from what I can tell, it looks to me like they've been translated well. The last TMNT animated film was similarly pretty good at underlining their personalities.

So sure, no one wants to see a story line they love shit on, but back to Marvel, changing storylines and playing with character direction is pretty much what they do.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:My personal beef with him stems primarily from the oncoming TMNT, which looks to be frigging god-awful.
In what ways? It looks pretty awesome to me, and I'm a huge TMNT fan.

People get all bent out of shape over this notion of 'things I liked when I was a kid are sacrosanct!' when in fact, they were pretty rough around the edges then.


They just don't look right...something about the noses, they just look really off-putting. That's #1. Then, of course, apparently they're aliens. And also Megan Fox. Sooo, it looks like Michael Bay is just making another transformers movie, mostly.

Yes, I realize that the old TMNT movies weren't necessarily masterpieces of cinema(they certainly don't age terribly well), but...when nostalgia is done right, it's amazing. See also, Avengers. This will be nothing like that.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:18 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Then, of course, apparently they're aliens
ORLY?
Tyndmyr wrote:something about the noses, they just look really off-putting
I felt the suits from the first movies were REALLY dated looking, but that didn't stop me from enjoying the films. I think the noses are totally reasonable looking.
Tyndmyr wrote:And also Megan Fox. Sooo, it looks like Michael Bay is just making another transformers movie, mostly.
Yes, media that was designed for 10 year old boys translates quite well to adding sex symbols and more boom. That both Transformers and TNMT actually have fairly developed and nuanced characterization doesn't mean they were, originally even, without their 'things go boom and also hehe cute girls'.
Tyndmyr wrote:Yes, I realize that the old TMNT movies weren't necessarily masterpieces of cinema(they certainly don't age terribly well), but...when nostalgia is done right, it's amazing. See also, Avengers. This will be nothing like that.
See, this I find kind of hilarious; Avengers was a fun super hero film but it wasn't particularly true to the comics, AND, it wasn't a particularly compelling or super well written or nuanced film. There were some GLARING fucking plot holes, with characters acting like complete idiots. It was superhero porn; an excuse to see Cap'n A fight Iron Man and oh shit here comes Thor and look huzzah now Hulks fighting too! But because it was Josh Wheaton we give it a pass and just see sparkles and rainbows.

I think people need to get over the rose tinted glasses they view all their childhood media through, and recognize it for what it was; mostly pandering junk with some unpolished gems. It's ok to pick up those gems and dust them off, maybe polish them a bit, even when they're still somewhat set in pandering junk.

EDIT: And also, one of the trailers clearly shows the turtles being children, training with Splinter, and talks about the mutagen ooze.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:42 pm UTC

Why couldn't Christina Hendricks be April O'Neil? Why not?

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Why couldn't Christina Hendricks be April O'Neil? Why not?
... And now it's all I'll ever think about. Ever.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:10 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Yes, I realize that the old TMNT movies weren't necessarily masterpieces of cinema(they certainly don't age terribly well), but...when nostalgia is done right, it's amazing. See also, Avengers. This will be nothing like that.
See, this I find kind of hilarious; Avengers was a fun super hero film but it wasn't particularly true to the comics, AND, it wasn't a particularly compelling or super well written or nuanced film. There were some GLARING fucking plot holes, with characters acting like complete idiots. It was superhero porn; an excuse to see Cap'n A fight Iron Man and oh shit here comes Thor and look huzzah now Hulks fighting too! But because it was Josh Wheaton we give it a pass and just see sparkles and rainbows.

I think people need to get over the rose tinted glasses they view all their childhood media through, and recognize it for what it was; mostly pandering junk with some unpolished gems. It's ok to pick up those gems and dust them off, maybe polish them a bit, even when they're still somewhat set in pandering junk.


So, Avengers really did suck, and we all just loved it because of one dude? Really? Pssh. Movies with big names have been hated before. Hell, Joss has made things that have been not exactly blessed with popularity.

Nobody expects an adaptation to be an identical remake of the exact same thing. However, it needs to keep the same feel of the original. Remind us of the things we liked about it while still being enjoyable on it's own merit. Avengers was successful in this. Say, Green Lantern, not so much. People tend to pick out individual examples of suckiness in criticizing movies, but it's rarely just one or two things. It's the overall tone and merits of the tale as told. Sure, turning parallax into a cloud of goo or whatever was...lame. And no doubt a common criticism...but it was far from the movie's only failing. It's merely emblematic of the fact that the final movie is a crappily edited, paint by numbers hero's journey that couldn't be overly bothered with delivering on what the audience's came to see.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

Dude, you are becoming the absolute King of strawmen. My point about Avengers was that it was FULL of crappy story elements that we're more than willing to ignore because superheroes or Joss or willing suspension of disbelief, but when Michael Bay does it, we can't turn a blind eye because Transformers or TMNT are somehow more sacrosanct to our childhoods than the already perpetually bastardized Marvel universe is. Or something.

I felt at least in each of the Transformers films that each Transformer perpetually acted as the characters I've known them to be from the show. The Marvel films can't say that.

Tyndmyr wrote: However, it needs to keep the same feel of the original. Remind us of the things we liked about it while still being enjoyable on it's own merit.
Yes; something Transformers and Avengers and maybe one or two of the X-Men movies mostly succeeded at. I'm questioning your misplaced hostility at a film you haven't even seen yet, on the merits of 'the turtles noses look weird to me' and 'in 2012 it was said they'd be twerking the origin slightly'.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Dude, you are becoming the absolute King of strawmen. My point about Avengers was that it was FULL of crappy story elements that we're more than willing to ignore because superheroes or Joss or willing suspension of disbelief, but when Michael Bay does it, we can't turn a blind eye because Transformers or TMNT are somehow more sacrosanct to our childhoods than the already perpetually bastardized Marvel universe is. Or something.


Your explanation of "somehow sascrosanct" is pretty damned sketchy. That was not my explanation at all.

My explanation was that the movie looks like it's going to be crap. And, there's my opinion that Avengers was pretty good. These are...not extremely strange opinions. If you think it's some sort of strange sacroscant ideology, what do you have to back that up?

Tyndmyr wrote: However, it needs to keep the same feel of the original. Remind us of the things we liked about it while still being enjoyable on it's own merit.
Yes; something Transformers and Avengers and maybe one or two of the X-Men movies mostly succeeded at. I'm questioning your misplaced hostility at a film you haven't even seen yet, on the merits of 'the turtles noses look weird to me' and 'in 2012 it was said they'd be twerking the origin slightly'.


The entire point of trailers, etc is to help you form an opinion of a movie you have not yet seen. That is how you decide if you wish to see it. I saw a trailer, it looked like rubbish.

Obviously you disagree...so go, see the movie, and report back on the damage to your childhood. If it gets a reception equally or surpassing the Avengers, I will be very surprised indeed.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Your explanation of "somehow sascrosanct" is pretty damned sketchy. That was not my explanation at all.

My explanation was that the movie looks like it's going to be crap. And, there's my opinion that Avengers was pretty good. These are...not extremely strange opinions. If you think it's some sort of strange sacroscant ideology, what do you have to back that up?
I answered that in the second part you quoted;
Izawwlgood wrote:I'm questioning your misplaced hostility at a film you haven't even seen yet, on the merits of 'the turtles noses look weird to me' and 'in 2012 it was said they'd be twerking the origin slightly'.


Tyndmyr wrote:Obviously you disagree...so go, see the movie, and report back on the damage to your childhood. If it gets a reception equally or surpassing the Avengers, I will be very surprised indeed.
Like I said, I was a huge fan of Transformers the cartoon series as a kid, and Bay's adaptation was at worst entertaining.

The thing I'm getting at with this whole exchange is that it's pretty arbitrary seeming what people will and won't accept as adapations/reboots. I felt Avengers was highly entertaining, but mostly because it was superhero porn, not because it was a compelling storyline or a clever use of the characters or even really that true to the characters themselves. Also, evidently the Tesseract is an infinity gem now. Who knew!

But for some reason when someone reboots Transformers and tries to hit the same target audience the original pandered to with an eye to recognizing that most of those who loved it at the age of 10 are now 20 years older, everyone loses their fucking minds. The noses are different. The turtles ties to extraterrestrials was exaggerated then redacted. April O'Neil is a sex symbol.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:40 pm UTC

It is unimportant that she is a sex symbol. The selection of actress is important because it furthers the perception of Michael Bay doing the same old thing he has a reputation for doing(ie, Transformers, basically). I'd be surprised if at least one giant robot, inception music, and lots of explosions didn't find their way into the "plot" somehow.

A better example of "they changed it, and now it sucks" would be people griping because the Bombadil scene got axed from LotR. It was fairly unrelated to the main plotline, and frankly, the movies were already a bit on the long side even with it gone.

Anyway, to drag this back on topic, it is pretty blatantly clear that unhappiness over changes to beloved icons is not particularly limited to or focused on gender-swaps.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:02 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It is unimportant that she is a sex symbol. The selection of actress is important because it furthers the perception of Michael Bay doing the same old thing he has a reputation for doing(ie, Transformers, basically). I'd be surprised if at least one giant robot, inception music, and lots of explosions didn't find their way into the "plot" somehow.
My point was April O'Neil has a history of being a sex symbol anyway, and your complaints seem rather moot.

Tyndmyr wrote:A better example of "they changed it, and now it sucks" would be people griping because the Bombadil scene got axed from LotR. It was fairly unrelated to the main plotline, and frankly, the movies were already a bit on the long side even with it gone.
I disagree that axing that scene was a good decision, but then, I do agree the films were already long. I'd say that's a good example of 'fitting a long body of work for the silver screen involves some tough cuts', which isn't really necessary for a TNMT or Transformers film.

Tyndmyr wrote:Anyway, to drag this back on topic, it is pretty blatantly clear that unhappiness over changes to beloved icons is not particularly limited to or focused on gender-swaps.
Indeed; which back to my original point way back at the beginning, that the way people get bent out of shape about this stuff reveals more about the people getting bent out of shape than anything else.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:23 pm UTC

Can we discuss something that is similar to this subject? Transformers ain't even in the Marvel Universe.

What does everyone think about Ultimate Spiderman being written as "Miles Morales" a young black hispanic??

Image

This happened in 2011 in the "Ultimate" comic books, when Peter Parker was killed off, and a kid who had similar powers the whole time (Miles Morales) went through a very similar "With great power comes great responsibility" lesson. Would Peter Parker have survived if Miles Morales helped him out? The other heroes are all surprised that a much younger version of Spiderman started running around. But with the death of the original Spiderman, they all feel obligated to help Miles Morales out. Nick Fury gives him a spider-suit that isn't in "bad taste" with regards to Peter Parker's death.

I think the transition is overall pretty good. Miles Morales has poison / venom powers that Peter never had, making him unique. But I think what really settles it is the finality of Peter Parker's death (which we only know now by looking back upon the comics years later). Ultimate Peter Parker died, truly and irrevocably, and forced Miles Morales to blaze his own path.

Besides, the "Ultimate / 616 Crossover" was apparently pretty good ("Spider-Men" was the series name). When 616-Spiderman goes through an inter-dimensional portal to the Ultimate Marvel Universe.

Image
Image

----------------

If "Female Thor" can become Thor entirely, like Miles Morales is truly the Ultimate universe's "Spiderman" (as well as Black Nick Fury Jr.), it will be a good transition. I forgot that Marvel has actually been doing a number of decent superhero transitions lately... granted, they're all in the "Ultimate" universe. But... maybe they're finally ready to apply their storytelling techniques to the main universe?

(Though... the Death of Captain America -> Captain Bucky America transition was just.... uggghhhh.... Civil War was a bad arc)

Just none of the good "superhero transitions" are female... yet. And I think fans are a lot more acceptable to major changes in the "Ultimate" universe, that is why it exists of course: The Ultimate universe tinkers with traditions to create new stories. The main difference between "Miles Morales Spiderman" and "Female Thor" is the whole Ultimate universe vs official Earth-616. Changes to tradition rarely happens in the main universe of Earth-616.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby natraj » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:59 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Can we discuss something that is similar to this subject? Transformers ain't even in the Marvel Universe.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transf ... _Comics%29
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:46 pm UTC

I'm actually pretty dang dissapointed that they they weren't more faithful to the Norse mythology.

In which Thor was a transvestite, and is implied to have the same shapeshifting (and thus transexual ability) that Loki has. They could have accomplished the same minority-aware agenda while forcing the bigots to eat even more crow when they made up BS reasons to be against this.

KnightExemplar wrote:Can we discuss something that is similar to this subject? Transformers ain't even in the Marvel Universe.

....Dude. Transformers fiction originated as a Marvel comic, has had a Marvel series running since the 80s, and the Marvel series is the source for the primary characterizations of each character throughout the franchise. I can barely fathom the failure of research that lead you to say such a perversely untrue thing.

Tyndmyr wrote:The entire point of trailers, etc is to help you form an opinion of a movie you have not yet seen. That is how you decide if you wish to see it. I saw a trailer, it looked like rubbish.

Obviously you disagree...so go, see the movie, and report back on the damage to your childhood. If it gets a reception equally or surpassing the Avengers, I will be very surprised indeed.

I've found that most every person who says stuff like this has very little knowledge of the Transformers franchise, and/or it played a negligible part in their childhood. In fact, I'll repost a rant on why saying stuff like this is...terrible:

Everytime someone says that the transformers movies are "unfaithful to their childhood", it just makes it clear how little they actually cared about transformers in their childhood. Optimus from our childhood has turned into a freaking shoe, and megatron from our childhood built a giant purple griffon for no reason. One of the most lauded transformers shows from our childhood had the rhinoceros save the day with the power of farts. Many, many transformers series, ESPECIALLY the first one, had racist stereotypes aplenty-often much more malicious than anything the twins did. One season of transformers has all the robots molesting young girls.

Most of the parts of the movies people bitch about are where its being the -most- faithful, so i would love it if these film critics and forumers would shut the hell up. Even the "super mature and profound" stuff had low points aplenty, so stop pretending that transformers is this super serious, no-silliness franchise that the movies are making a mockery of.

The movies have real problems, not the imagined and totally BS "ruining my childhood" shit total ignoramii keep spouting, so lets focus on those, neh?


*Some clarifiers for those unaware of transformers:
--The Megatron from the 80s cartoon has been depicted able to turn into a B-52-based bomber, a tank, a shoe, a Playstation One console, and a gun. Not just a Walther P38. His "plans that are totally less ridiculous than the movies" usually involved building giant purple griffons for no reason or starting nightclubs in order to hypnotize teens, to make them run gas stations catering to decepticons.
--The Optimus from the 80s cartoon has turned into things much more different from a cab-over truck than a semi with flames -- an iPod deck, a pepsi delivery truck (and that one was old), a movie style truck that was, like, in the original carton ffs, fire engines, and shoe.
--Casey Kasem quit the original show because of how racist it got. Having two wannabe "gangstas" is, if anything, progressive compared to the original.
--Rhinox seriously defeated the Predacons in one episode using his powerful beangas.
--Kiss Players exists, and is part of the series including the cartoon from the 80s. Lingering shots on teen butts in a movie that is (if not in merchandise) very clearly not aimed at young children is objectification, yes, and a separate problem, but still an improvement on what the original fiction got up to (for example, the original female transformer was created to shut feminists up. Not meta-wise -- literally, feminists were pestering Optimus, so he had the Autobots build Arcee in order to make those "irrational feminists" shut up.)

(I've actually had a guy respond to that with "where did I say anything about childhood" when his original post was literally "gone is Optimus Prime, the beloved knight of our childhood". The nearly-infrared tint of the glasses some people wear in response to any not-even-change-but-simply-aspect-of-a-franchise is astounding, before you even get into the cadre of those with socks up their butt about the existence of minority representation and other issues.)

If the Transformers movies damage your childhood memories, then you were either not paying a damn lick of attention to the original, or you consider "being more progressive, realistic, and less bizarrely poorly-written" to be damage.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:09 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Can we discuss something that is similar to this subject? Transformers ain't even in the Marvel Universe.

....Dude. Transformers fiction originated as a Marvel comic, has had a Marvel series running since the 80s, and the Marvel series is the source for the primary characterizations of each character throughout the franchise. I can barely fathom the failure of research that lead you to say such a perversely untrue thing.


Lay off, this is a casual topic. I'm not going to put the same level of research discussing comic books as I do in other topics.

Besides, I'm still technically correct, which is why I didn't edit it out. Spiderman, the Fantastic 4, and everyone else aren't rushing in to save Optimus Prime. The Decepticons have no relationship to the Skrulls or any of the other iconic characters in the Marvel Universe (ie: Earth 616). At least Ultimate universe has similar themes and characters.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.


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